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Old    Steve (whirli_7)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-14-2013, 6:07 AM Reply   
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...first/1917131/
Old    Rance Taylor (DatTexasBoy)      Join Date: Aug 2012       02-14-2013, 6:34 AM Reply   
This is a nice option. I had heard that GM would be doing this also, but looks like Dodge beat em to it.
Old    Steve (whirli_7)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-14-2013, 6:45 AM Reply   
And i've heard the same for Nissan with the next Gen Titan getting a 4cyl Cummins.
Old    Diggs (pdxWAKE) (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-14-2013, 7:06 AM Reply   
True test will be the price.... I have a feeling they are going to push up into the same range as the Heavy Duty's. If they can keep the price comparable to other 1500's then it will be a big win....
Old    Tom (boardjnky4)      Join Date: Dec 2011       02-14-2013, 7:26 AM Reply   
Jeep Grand Cherokee is said to be getting the same engine.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-14-2013, 7:28 AM Reply   
I don't think it is going to work. In my opinion there are not nearly the advantages to diesel over gas as there use to be. The only reason that makes any sense to choose a diesel now over a gas engine is if you are going to be pulling trailers that weigh up in the 10k range, tow a lot of weight in the mountains or are at elevation. In that case you would want a 3/4 or full ton truck anyway. Diesels might get a little better MPG butt that is wiped out due to higher fuel costs. Diesels routine maintanence is more expensive(fuel filters, more oil, DEF fluid, etc...). Diesels other maintanence is way more expensive(injectors, high pressure pumps, EGR's, Turbos, etc..). Hell, you can probably come close to replacing an entire chevy 6.0L/8.1L or a Ford V10 for the price of doing the injectors on a Duramax. Diesels aren't really any more reliable than gasoline engines at this point. I don't know if it is electronic systems and/or the emissions crap that are on the new engines but diesels aren't like the diesels 10-20 years ago. Also, you pay about a 7k or more premium for a diesel vs gasser version of the same truck. Sure, you may get some back in resale but it is still a higher up front cost.

I call on a lot of school districts and transportation companies who have Chevy express and Ford E series van/buses. Every single one I have talked to is getting rid of all their diesels and going to gas when ordering new Type A buses(van chassis).

Honestly, I am not sure why anybody would choose a diesel 3/4 or half ton pickup unless they are towing 10k pounds over a mountain pass or always lugging around a 10k trailer. A Hemi, 6.2L Ford or 6.0L Chevy in a 3/4 ton will tow a 6500 pound boat and trailer all day. A boat isn't going to feel any different behind a diesel 3/4 ton pickup then it would behind a gasser 3/4 pickup except going up the steepest grades.

All that said this isn't taking into account the bad ass factor of a big diesel that no matter how much you put behind it. Then again we all might be safer if there wasn't mr douche pulling his boat behind a diesel truck 20 mph's over the speed limit over the pass.
Old    Diggs (pdxWAKE) (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-14-2013, 7:57 AM Reply   
Brett
I have to disagree..... I am not a big diesel junkie, but I do buy and sell some vehicles... Diesels will last much longer than a gas engine and resale value is insanely better.... That alone makes it worthwhile. I understand your argument about higher fuel prices and higher cost of the engine upgrade, but there is a break even depending on how long you keep the truck and miles driven. They are not right for everyone, but if the price point is right, there will be a big market for them. Just my opinion, but I do have a feeling they are going to price them right up close to the 3/4 and 1 ton diesels...
Old    Trapper (canucked)      Join Date: Jun 2007       02-14-2013, 7:57 AM Reply   
Brett, I agree.

When I first heard of this I thought it would be a great option, but discussing with a few people that use/maintain diesel trucks all think for recreational use its expensive overkill.

If you need to tow a heavy load (g23/RV) it probably makes more sense to jump to a 3/4 ton anyways

Also, I can count at least three people I know that want to drive their Duramax off a cliff (from repair costs).
Old    Diggs (pdxWAKE) (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-14-2013, 8:14 AM Reply   
Trapper... Wait till they try and sell their Duramax... They will be happy again that they had it...
People and dealers will pay huge money for them right now. People are getting damn near what they paid for those Duramax's that are 5 years old now and have 100K on them...

If they are looking to sell and are sick of them and want to take a hit on their duramax call me... I can find a home for it...

I am not really a diesel guy, but there are a million people out there that are and they are paying huge money for them right now....
Old    Mark (FunkyBunch)      Join Date: Jun 2011       02-14-2013, 8:26 AM Reply   
I think it is a good thing in the long run, we will just have to see the implementation. What is the mpg going will be. The Nissan Cummins was shooting for around 30 mpg which is way better than gas even for the added cost of diesel which is mostly tax by the way. If they can get me better mpg and good towing I am all for it. Had a 92 Cummins that would get 21mpg all day long I would think they could get 30 in a half-ton even with all the heavy smog crap now. If they are a big enough seller maybe a tax rebate on the 1/2ton like the boat gas tax could be in the future. Its all speculation until we have some numbers and know if the engines are reliable.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-14-2013, 8:37 AM Reply   
"n the Jeep, the diesel is rated 240 horsepower and 420 pounds-feet of torque."

I will keep my 1/2 ton Ecoboost. EcoBoost V6 – 365-hp / 420 lb-ft of torque.
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-14-2013, 8:41 AM Reply   
the comparison between an ecoboost gas engine and a diesel is not even close.

I would love a small diesel engine in a 1500. My boat is 6500 - 6800 lbs lake ready. this isn't big enough for HD, but most 1500 trucks suck gas when pulling this weight on a regular basis.

Not to mention that diesels run forever. I would take one!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-14-2013, 8:53 AM Reply   
Tyler, I just looked up some values on car trader. I used a 2008 F250 4x4 four door as an example. If appears the gas version of those with at or around 50k miles are going to high 20's on average. The diesel version of the same rig is going for about 5 grand more. Does that sound fair that a 5 year old truck is worth about 5 grand more in a diesel version? The resale isn't really any better if that is the case as the Diesel cost 5-10k more up front. That said you buy and sell some so you would have a better idea if resale really is better but to actually compare resale it has to be done as a % base, not a dollar figure if the 2 vehicles were different prices to begin with.

As far as the engine's lasting longer I just don't think that is the case anymore. Again, I think this due to the mechanics and shop foreman I talk to every day. They are just flat out getting away from diesels when they can. These large fleets are probably ahead of the curve since they have accountants to calculate these things out and put a lot more miles than the average personal use vehicle but I wouldn't at all be surprised if personal use diesels sales really start to drop off.

Back to regular maintanence. On today's gas engines I am not sure there really is much maintanance involved. Oil changes are at similar intervals I believe. Now looking at the Ford 6.7L vs the ford 6.2L the 6.7L filter is about 3 times more expensive and the engine takes twice as much oil. I am not sure how that compares to the current chevy or dodge offerings. Also, from what I understand diesels should have their fuel filters changed every few oil changes as well. the fuel filter for a 6.7L ford is a $50+ filter. Even if you changed the fuel filter in the gasser at the same intervals it would be a lo cheaper. These newer gas engines basically dont' need anything else other than an air filer every once in a while until you get up to 100k to change spark plugs. spark plugs are cheap and relatively easy to replace. I am thinking that you should pretty easily be able to get 200k miles out of these newer gas engines with nothing more than fluid changes, filter changes, spark plugs at 100k and maybe a water pump in there. All that added up is less than the regular maintance on a diesel. Now if something breaks on a diesel it is way more expensive than on a gas engine.

I think anybody that buys a 100k mile Duramax is nuts. It is like a $4k job just to replace the injectors and sounds like they go about 150k miles on average. 4k for injectors or a couple hundred for spark plugs. I will take spark plugs for $200 Alex. Again you could completely rebuild a V10, 8.1, 6.0(gas) or 6.2 for about that price I am guessing.

I really feel like the public will end up figuring all this out at some point.
Old    Trapper (canucked)      Join Date: Jun 2007       02-14-2013, 9:02 AM Reply   
We'll see what the cost comes in at. I see pros and cons. Resale is definately a consideration.

The impression I get is that the full size nissan was in danger of being ditched entirely. I'm surpised to hear about a potential diesel option.

I have an 09 Titan that my wife hit a deer with, so we have a rental eco-boost right now. Its nice but I feel that tales of exceptional MGP are greatly exaggerated in real world conditions, I feel the same about diesels. I guess it is the difference when towing that gives diesel a potential edge.
Old    Steve (whirli_7)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-14-2013, 9:14 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucked View Post
We'll see what the cost comes in at. I see pros and cons. Resale is definately a consideration.

The impression I get is that the full size nissan was in danger of being ditched entirely. I'm surpised to hear about a potential diesel option.

I have an 09 Titan that my wife hit a deer with, so we have a rental eco-boost right now. Its nice but I feel that tales of exceptional MGP are greatly exaggerated in real world conditions, I feel the same about diesels. I guess it is the difference when towing that gives diesel a potential edge.
I think the Eco-boost are not marketed correctly, they should market it for it's power, not fuel effeciency. Aren't gas engines running 15/1 ratios and they need to burn a certain amount of gas per Cubic foot of air? So if you are boosting the 6 making it swallow the same amount of air as the V8 it will get about the same MPG?
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-14-2013, 9:15 AM Reply   
Care to elaborate? The torque curve on the Ecoboost is almost identical to a turbo diesel. Gas costs less, maintenance costs are lower, truck cost a lot less. Being a boat dealer, I tow a considerable amount. Previously had an '06 Ford 6.0, turbo exploded around 225k and then an '08 with the 6.4, lost one turbo at 6k and again at 20k. Please don't tell me that modern diesels are more reliable, nor about fuel economy. The fact is that my ecoboost can still easily pull a 8k trailer up a 6% mountain pass at 9,000'+ at 75 mpg in 5 gear at 2300 rpm with no downshifting. This new dodge will have a lot to prove vs. a modern direct injection gasser with twin turbos and twin variable overhead cams.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-14-2013, 9:43 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by whirli_7 View Post
I think the Eco-boost are not marketed correctly, they should market it for it's power, not fuel effeciency. Aren't gas engines running 15/1 ratios and they need to burn a certain amount of gas per Cubic foot of air? So if you are boosting the 6 making it swallow the same amount of air as the V8 it will get about the same MPG?
Depends on dynamic compression ratio. More compression means more power and torque from the same amount of fuel. More torque and you don't need to get into the enrichment circuit much.

Same idea as towing with a small block gasser vs a big block gasser. Small block might get slightly more MPG unloaded than an unloaded big block truck as both have light load on the engine. Put 5k-10k lbs behind it and now that small block truck is in the enrichment circuit and secondaries just to maintain highway speed while the big block is cruising on the main jets and no enrichment or secondaries unless accelerating or climbing a grade. More air goes through the engine but as a result of greater torque and horsepower it can run a leaner mixture and less fuel goes through the engine.

Or compare something like a '69 429 to a '73 460. '69 had no smog equipment and high compression closed chamber heads. '73 was EPA smog laden with large open chamber heads, dish pistons and a poor quench area. You have engines only pushing 8:1 compression detonating under heavy load running flat out wide open even with higher octane fuel. Meanwhile the smaller 429 with 10.5:1 compression and no EPA smog equipment blows it away in performance and economy, with much less throttle opening and without getting into enrichment so often.

Gross oversimplification, but same general idea with a forced induction engine. They may be forcing more fuel and air into the engine than a NA engine but higher cylinder pressures mean more power from a given quantity. Less load on the engine.
Old    Diggs (pdxWAKE) (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       02-14-2013, 9:49 AM Reply   
Brett
I agree with you... I won't pay that much but trust me people do. Dealers in your neck of the woods will pay full pay full money on a used diesel and sell it above book. You would have to know diesels and years well before you make comparisons like you did above. 08 Fords are the first year of that new diesel and are not desireable. Poor fuel economy and had some issues. I can see book value being low on those. Regardless, it is not all about book on those. Go start comparing a 2004-2007 Dodge 5.9L (not the 2007 6.7L) to a 2004-2007 Dodge with a gas motor.... Same with the Duramax's you will see a huge difference. Not so much on the Ford's cause they had some public motor issues. Double the miles on diesels and probably double the value. Public perception is still gas motors start getting expensive for repairs over 100K miles and diesels over 200-300K.... I am not saying I agree with this. I agree with you, but that is not public perception and values don't lie. I totally agree that gas engines are catching up in longevity, but that will take several more years to prove. Changing public opinion is not easy..... Find me some cheap diesels (not 6.0L) in the Seattle area and I will buy them all. I know some dealers that will buy them all and pay good money for them.
I ship some boats on occassion and every guy shipper that picks up the boat drives a diesel. I always ask them how many miles they have on their trucks. Guess what the answer is? Always 300K, 600K, and the last guy had 1.3 million on his ford 7.3 diesel. Start asking your gas buddies about that. If you find one with over 200K miles on it, it is not worth a red cent..... Maybe this will change in the future, but you got some time before you change public perception....

Again, I agree with you, but the public has not caught onto this and we don't really know that it is true yet. People are still paying 20K for 13 year old Ford 7.3L trucks with well over 100K miles. It is nuts, but people are buying them..... People are paying 25-30K for 8 year old dodges with the 5.9L with 100K miles on them.
I will repeat that if the price is right on the new diesels for the 1500's and the motors end up being reliable then people will buy them and the values will be higher than the gas counterpart....

Last edited by tyler97217; 02-14-2013 at 9:52 AM.
Old    Nauti 210 (brett33)      Join Date: Apr 2011       02-14-2013, 9:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
I think anybody that buys a 100k mile Duramax is nuts. It is like a $4k job just to replace the injectors and sounds like they go about 150k miles on average..
06 Duramax, owned it since it was brand new, got right at 210k and never had a single problem. Routine maintenance, new tires and a few bent tie rods is all I've had to do on it.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-14-2013, 9:59 AM Reply   
In my experience, it has always been a wash, on the cost to own. The advantage was having the power of the diesel, if you went that route. Even towing as little as 3-4k is much nicer with a diesel.

I have fleetmatics, with integrated fleet cards, for my business. (GPS tracking, maintenance costing, and mileage reporting). I own a fleet of big trucks, and 3 pickup trucks. 1-2005 F-250 5.4l, 1-2012 F250 6.2l, and 1-2011 Denali 2500HD Duramax. Fuel mileage reporting for 2012 was-

2005 F-250 5.4 gas- 11.27MPG. 18,640 miles. Fuel card total=$6036.91. Fuel cost/mile=$.32
2012 F-250 6.2l gas- 12.42MPG. 24,585 miles. Fuel card total=$7086.50. Fuel cost/mile=$.29
2011 2500 Duramax- 19.8MPG. 21,432 miles. Fuel Card total=$4524.53. Fuel cost/mile=$.21

Recorded Maintenance-
2005 F-250 (Getting Tired) $2720.00. Maint/mile=$.15
2012 F-250 $1841.00. maint/mile=$.07
2011 Duramax $3028.00. maint/mile=$.14

Totals=
05 F250 gas = $.47
12 F250 gas= $.36
11 Dmax = $.35

That is a 1 year snapshot, and they are very close. If the 05 hadn't needed the whole front end rebuilt, they all would have been within a couple cents per mile. I am sure that this data could change from year to year, but I do not have time to go through all those reports.

One thing I can say, is that I will be going all diesel in the future. With everything considered, they cost about the same to run, and you have a lot more torque on tap. Maintenance is higher, especially because of DEF. Luckily, I have big trucks, so I buy it in 50gal drums. Buying in drums costs about 60% less than gallon jugs of it. Oil changes cost more, but are less frequent. Fuel filters need to be done every 10k instead of every 50k like a gasser. Fuel filters are cheap though.

Also, in my experience, a 3-5 year old diesel pickup will sell for 7-8k more than a gas pickup. So, the extra that you spend in the beginning, is returned at the end.

Brett is right. It is essentially a wash, and if you have problems with a diesel, it will cost more. Most people, that I know, have very good luck with diesels...... Unless they modify them.

One other thing I can say, is that, if these smaller diesels are anything like the smaller diesels in VWs etc..... They will cost MUCH less than a gasser. The smaller. high tech diesels in VW cars and SUVs a very low maintenance, and get very good fuel economy.
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-14-2013, 10:14 AM Reply   
Just an FYI, the Ecodiesel option on the '14 Grand Cherokees will be $4500. Keep in mind the Hemi is only a $2100 option. I really wanted a diesel GC, but I am not sure I can justify a $2400 premium over the Hemi.

Glad to see a domestic manufacturer putting diesels in vehicles other than 2500+ pickups though. I just think Chrysler priced this one a bit too high.
Old    Chris C (cboom12)      Join Date: Jul 2004       02-14-2013, 10:39 AM Reply   
Had a buddy with a chevy 2500 gasser. He couldn't give the thing away once he wanted to sell it. It was a nice truck but a total pig. Couldn't get out of its own way. 2003 I believe was the year. I'm curious to see the pricing on these new trucks. It's been discussed on here before, but I was of the opinion that the reason for not doing this was going to be cost. Will these trucks be nearly as expensive as a 3/4 ton diesel? As has be said before the base price of a 1/2 ton vs a 3/4 ton is very close, it's the diesel option that really creates the gap. Will putting a diesel in the 1/2 ton make a truck that is nearly as expensive but with half the capability?
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-14-2013, 11:05 AM Reply   
Brett, you sir have copious ammounts of inaccurate and completely bogus information. I dont even know where to start. So im not.
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-14-2013, 1:01 PM Reply   
Brett

Duramax injecters only had problems on the Lb7 motor which is 2000-2002. They did go out by about 150,000 mile mark and even the replacement injector had the same problem and your right its 2000.00 dollars for the injector and about 2000.00 to have them put in. But since 2003 they haven't had that problem.


I'll take an LMM duramax (07.5-10) any day with over 100,000 miles. Trying to find one right now accually.
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-14-2013, 1:04 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
Care to elaborate? The torque curve on the Ecoboost is almost identical to a turbo diesel. Gas costs less, maintenance costs are lower, truck cost a lot less. Being a boat dealer, I tow a considerable amount. Previously had an '06 Ford 6.0, turbo exploded around 225k and then an '08 with the 6.4, lost one turbo at 6k and again at 20k. Please don't tell me that modern diesels are more reliable, nor about fuel economy. The fact is that my ecoboost can still easily pull a 8k trailer up a 6% mountain pass at 9,000'+ at 75 mpg in 5 gear at 2300 rpm with no downshifting. This new dodge will have a lot to prove vs. a modern direct injection gasser with twin turbos and twin variable overhead cams.
Those year f250 was known for that. that is why ford now makes their own diesels. My dad had an 08 that had the same problem.
Old    Pete (petrey10)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-14-2013, 1:18 PM Reply   
how is the torque curve of ecoboost the same as a diesel... cause its not... also the ecoboost towing will not match the MPG a 5.9l or duramax produces

filters expensive?? Not really anymore expensive than a gasser... sure it takes more oil but I can easily get 7500 miles between oil changes... gasser is 3k-5k depending on how anal you are so you could have two oil changes by the time I gotta have one...

I would love to see a Ram 1500 diesel in the 26+ mpg range... it would be one hell of a truck


And you think a gasser will last as long as a diesel?? Are you serious?? NO WAY!! Not happening... if it were the case semi's would be switching over to gas but they aren't because its not true. 200k in gas is achieved way less than 300k in a diesel is
Old    Chris C (cboom12)      Join Date: Jul 2004       02-14-2013, 2:04 PM Reply   
[QUOTE=petrey10;1806755]how is the torque curve of ecoboost the same as a diesel... cause its not...

Ummmm cause it is. Certainly not from a pure numbers stand point but peak torque and a low engine speed and a long flat curve. Look at the graph they look very similar.

Even if the dodge diesel option is only 4500 (which I doubt) it's still 4.5x more expensive as the ecoboost and only matches the torque and is not close on hp. How much better will it be is the question. Or is it just the "I've got a diesel" thing.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-14-2013, 2:34 PM Reply   
^ Yes
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-14-2013, 3:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by michridr69 View Post
Brett, you sir have copious ammounts of inaccurate and completely bogus information. I dont even know where to start. So im not.
I am not opposed to learning if you have info. This is a message board and someone might learn something from it. I don't mind being called out or proven that I am wrong.

If the numbers are true that they are going to be able to get 25-30 real world average mpg's out of a diesel 1/2 ton maybe the numbers work out. $4500 doesn't sound like too much of a premium to get 5+ mpg better.

I still think diesels cost more to maintain and as far as semi's using diesels is the reason they do because of longevity or because they need the torque of the diesel to pull a 53 foot trailer over mountain passes? Maybe some of both?
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-14-2013, 4:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by petrey10 View Post
how is the torque curve of ecoboost the same as a diesel... cause its not... also the ecoboost towing will not match the MPG a 5.9l or duramax produces

filters expensive?? Not really anymore expensive than a gasser... sure it takes more oil but I can easily get 7500 miles between oil changes... gasser is 3k-5k depending on how anal you are so you could have two oil changes by the time I gotta have one...

I would love to see a Ram 1500 diesel in the 26+ mpg range... it would be one hell of a truck


And you think a gasser will last as long as a diesel?? Are you serious?? NO WAY!! Not happening... if it were the case semi's would be switching over to gas but they aren't because its not true. 200k in gas is achieved way less than 300k in a diesel is
Even if a gasser block/engine doesnt' last as long as a diesel you could probably replace the gas engine all together for about the price of doing injectors, pumps and turbo's.

Then again the length of time and amount miles most people on this site probably have their trucks it doesn't matter as both diesel and gas options are super reliable these days up to 100k miles.
Old    Eric (Fixable)      Join Date: Oct 2012       02-14-2013, 4:26 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
I still think diesels cost more to maintain and as far as semi's using diesels is the reason they do because of longevity or because they need the torque of the diesel to pull a 53 foot trailer over mountain passes? Maybe some of both?
A few main reasons. Biggest would be fuel economy....
#1 Fuel Mileage. Running at an average of 90,000lbs, my trucks get about 5.5mpg. With that kind of load, a gasser would probably get less than 1mpg.

#2 Torque...... Imagine the displacement you would need to develop 2050lb/ft in a gas engine. And before anyone say's "A 10 liter ecoboost would do it!"....... It wouldn't. A turbocharged gas engine could not sustain high boost levels for extended periods of time. The EGTs run too hot. If you are full throttle on an ecoboost for an extended period of time, it will cut boost to preserve the pistons, manifolds, turbo housings. They need to breath once in a while.

#3 Longevity. Most big trucks will go 1,000,000 miles before needing an engine. Usually connecting rod bearings will be replaced at 500k, depending on oil analysis. I have two 15L Cummins ISXs that are over 800k, and have never been opened up. One of them had a turbo replaced recently, which cost less than $2500.00. (Reman). Synthetic oil change every 20k miles, and let them flicker....

Unfortunately, gone are the days of the emissions free diesels

Last edited by Fixable; 02-14-2013 at 4:32 PM.
Old    Chris C (cboom12)      Join Date: Jul 2004       02-14-2013, 4:32 PM Reply   
[QUOTE=polarbill;1806777]Even if a gasser block/engine doesnt' last as long as a diesel you could probably replace the gas engine all together for about the price of doing injectors, pumps and turbo's.

From what I understand a brand new 3.5 ecoboost from the factory is about 17k so at that point probably not. That actually may include the tranny but I'm not sure. Got the number from a video about the guys who built the ecoboost raptor. They opted to do a frame/suspension swap on an EB truck rather than motor swap into a raptor because it was actually cheaper. Go figure.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-14-2013, 5:00 PM Reply   
[QUOTE=cboom12;1806784]
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
Even if a gasser block/engine doesnt' last as long as a diesel you could probably replace the gas engine all together for about the price of doing injectors, pumps and turbo's.

From what I understand a brand new 3.5 ecoboost from the factory is about 17k so at that point probably not. That actually may include the tranny but I'm not sure. Got the number from a video about the guys who built the ecoboost raptor. They opted to do a frame/suspension swap on an EB truck rather than motor swap into a raptor because it was actually cheaper. Go figure.
The Ecoboost is on a different level of gas engine. what about the 5.0's, the 6.2's, the 6.0's?
Old    Chris C (cboom12)      Join Date: Jul 2004       02-14-2013, 5:45 PM Reply   
Honestly Brett i have no idea except that all factory production motors are pretty expensive these days. I was only using the EB because i knew the numbers and it seems to be the most fair comparison to a light duty diesel.
Old    Chris Walker (redsupralaunch)      Join Date: Aug 2002       02-14-2013, 6:08 PM Reply   
Ford is also bringing over a 3.2 powerstroke to E-series van.
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...tion-unveiled/
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-14-2013, 8:06 PM Reply   
"Only $4500..."

Lol, the apparent budgetless world of wakeboarding.
Old    Steve (whirli_7)      Join Date: Aug 2003       02-15-2013, 5:33 AM Reply   
This is one thing that i think about alot that i don't think most people realize. The EPA is forcing the car mfger's to increase their fuel economy. They don't care what it's going to cost the consumer in the long run, they are only concerned about making the grade. If this truck gets 5mpg than a comprable gasser, great for them. They don't care about the cost of diesel to fuel it.

The news a few months ago they were talking about the 2025 EPA regulations for fuel effeciency, the news casters were overly happy with the 40+ mpg average that cars will have to achieve, i thought... Great welcome to the $50K honda civic. Life of vehicle it wont save you a penny.
Old    Brearly Mason (Brearly_Mason)      Join Date: Nov 2012       02-15-2013, 8:34 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by whirli_7 View Post
The news a few months ago they were talking about the 2025 EPA regulations for fuel effeciency, the news casters were overly happy with the 40+ mpg average that cars will have to achieve, i thought... Great welcome to the $50K honda civic. Life of vehicle it wont save you a penny.
Most of the new vehicles are made out lighter materials too. Truck bodies are getting so thing it is crazy. The bed on my Dodge doesn't even have metal on the top of the bedrails, it has a plastic strip on the top, nothing underneath. I guess it makes replacing the bed panel a lot easier if it is ever in a small accident, but it is pretty cheap.
Old    Pete (petrey10)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-15-2013, 9:49 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
I am not opposed to learning if you have info. This is a message board and someone might learn something from it. I don't mind being called out or proven that I am wrong.

If the numbers are true that they are going to be able to get 25-30 real world average mpg's out of a diesel 1/2 ton maybe the numbers work out. $4500 doesn't sound like too much of a premium to get 5+ mpg better.

I still think diesels cost more to maintain and as far as semi's using diesels is the reason they do because of longevity or because they need the torque of the diesel to pull a 53 foot trailer over mountain passes? Maybe some of both?
so the bolded you are admitting the diesel has a more usable torque curve... thx for proving my point


do you see gassers having 1 million miles? NO!!!!!!! There is an abundance of million mile semi's
Old    Pete (petrey10)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-15-2013, 9:51 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixable View Post
A few main reasons. Biggest would be fuel economy....
#1 Fuel Mileage. Running at an average of 90,000lbs, my trucks get about 5.5mpg. With that kind of load, a gasser would probably get less than 1mpg.

#2 Torque...... Imagine the displacement you would need to develop 2050lb/ft in a gas engine. And before anyone say's "A 10 liter ecoboost would do it!"....... It wouldn't. A turbocharged gas engine could not sustain high boost levels for extended periods of time. [B]The EGTs run too hot. [/B]If you are full throttle on an ecoboost for an extended period of time, it will cut boost to preserve the pistons, manifolds, turbo housings. They need to breath once in a while.

#3 Longevity. Most big trucks will go 1,000,000 miles before needing an engine. Usually connecting rod bearings will be replaced at 500k, depending on oil analysis. I have two 15L Cummins ISXs that are over 800k, and have never been opened up. One of them had a turbo replaced recently, which cost less than $2500.00. (Reman). Synthetic oil change every 20k miles, and let them flicker....

Unfortunately, gone are the days of the emissions free diesels
BIGGEST REASON DIESELS LAST LONGER RIGHT THERE........ also why the ecoboost can't last the same amount as a diesel..... plus many have already seen the ecoboost MPG numbers are a bit inflated

Last edited by petrey10; 02-15-2013 at 9:54 AM.
Old    Pete (petrey10)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-15-2013, 10:04 AM Reply   
also you are inflating the whole injector issue... sure it COULD go wrong but if you take care of your truck and do the routine maintenance injector issues aren't a COMMON theme... sure if you add a bunch of power or don't change your fuel filter enough the filter is only 75 bucks (could be cheaper elsewhere) which isn't ridiculously expensive... not cheap either but not a HUGE expense
Old    Pete (petrey10)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-15-2013, 10:05 AM Reply   
there are expensive things that can go wrong on gassers too

I would say diesel is SLIGHTLY more expensive in the long run.... SLIGHTLY.... so slightly the improvements in MPGs should negate the issue
Old    Chris C (cboom12)      Join Date: Jul 2004       02-15-2013, 10:06 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by petrey10 View Post
so the bolded you are admitting the diesel has a more usable torque curve... thx for proving my point


do you see gassers having 1 million miles? NO!!!!!!! There is an abundance of million mile semi's
Dude. He's not refereing to the EB only regular naturally aspirated gassers. U would see this if you read all the posts. Second how many people do you know with a million miles on any car? How bout 500k? No? It's a mute point in a non commercial pov. The truck or car will likely break down well before the motor does. As I said before look at the torque graphs. Ford designed the EB to have the torque curve like diesel for towing. And in this case not only does the EB create equal peak torque but 120+ more hp. Not saying the EB is the end all of motors just saying as before if I'm gonna pay a premium the diesel needs performance, efficiently and reliability advantages. We still won't know for a little while if there will be.
Old    Peter Uehlin (peter19u)      Join Date: Oct 2006       02-15-2013, 11:00 AM Reply   
My Ecoboost with a tuner tows my boat exceptionally well even at high altituted and if I want to pass someont the truck is extremely fast. I get 15mpg in the city and 20mpg on the freeway. I do have bigger tires. Gas where I live is also alot cheaper that diesel.Couldn't be happier
Old    Brearly Mason (Brearly_Mason)      Join Date: Nov 2012       02-15-2013, 11:25 AM Reply   
I know of plenty 6.2L Chevy's and 6.9L Fords with over a 1,000,000 miles on them. They all run red diesel and are all over rural America. My wife's father has a truck with a 6.2L in it that is on the 5th bed, engine still runs fine. I also know of several Mercedes Benz 200 series sedans with over 1,000,000 miles on them. My buddy has one of the VW mini truck things that just turn over 800,000.
Old    Detox (bass10after)      Join Date: Feb 2010       02-16-2013, 8:18 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cboom12 View Post
Dude. He's not refereing to the EB only regular naturally aspirated gassers. U would see this if you read all the posts. Second how many people do you know with a million miles on any car? How bout 500k? No? It's a mute point in a non commercial pov. The truck or car will likely break down well before the motor does. As I said before look at the torque graphs. Ford designed the EB to have the torque curve like diesel for towing. And in this case not only does the EB create equal peak torque but 120+ more hp. Not saying the EB is the end all of motors just saying as before if I'm gonna pay a premium the diesel needs performance, efficiently and reliability advantages. We still won't know for a little while if there will be.

*moot point

http://grammarist.com/usage/moot-mute/
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       02-17-2013, 2:27 AM Reply   
Torque is torque, so if a gasser produces 420 and a diesel produce, 420, why is there no comparisons? Same with HP, if a gas engine produces about the same HP as a diesel, then why is that not a fair comparison. Day in and day out on these forums, we say you cant compare a 20ft boat to the 24ft boat. We say we cant compare a 6.5 coax to a 10" HLCD, yet when the topic of diesel comes it, its always "No Comparison" in gas to diesel no mater how close the specs are. Why is that?

As long as the price per gallon for diesel is this much higher then gas, the MPG advantage of diesel over gas will never offset the upfront costs of the diesel, especially when one factors in the added maintenance. Once you drive the diesel long enough, the back-end resale is a wash and out the window. IMO, MPG and resale are the last two reasons to buy a diesel in a depreciating asset like a truck.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-17-2013, 6:10 AM Reply   
Most people who own a diesel don't use it loaded all the time.My Snap-on truck is always loaded,but my F250 is rarely loaded.My next pickup will be gas,because my needs have changed.I don't tow as much as i previously have in the past.But as is the case with my Snap-on truck i'd always have a diesel.Modern trucks are producing much more torque in their gas engines so it's a tough choice between diesel vs. gas.
Old    Steven Pederson (sppeders)      Join Date: Jul 2011       02-18-2013, 11:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chpthril View Post
Torque is torque, so if a gasser produces 420 and a diesel produce, 420, why is there no comparisons? Same with HP, if a gas engine produces about the same HP as a diesel, then why is that not a fair comparison. Day in and day out on these forums, we say you cant compare a 20ft boat to the 24ft boat. We say we cant compare a 6.5 coax to a 10" HLCD, yet when the topic of diesel comes it, its always "No Comparison" in gas to diesel no mater how close the specs are. Why is that?

As long as the price per gallon for diesel is this much higher then gas, the MPG advantage of diesel over gas will never offset the upfront costs of the diesel, especially when one factors in the added maintenance. Once you drive the diesel long enough, the back-end resale is a wash and out the window. IMO, MPG and resale are the last two reasons to buy a diesel in a depreciating asset like a truck.
In MN right now, 3.78 for gas, 3.95 for diesel at the station i stopped at on the way in. 5% difference.
Old     (WakeDirt)      Join Date: Jun 2011       02-18-2013, 6:25 PM Reply   
3.85 Gas Vs 4.24 Diesel here in Cali
Old     (Thrall)      Join Date: Oct 2010       02-25-2013, 10:52 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
Care to elaborate? The torque curve on the Ecoboost is almost identical to a turbo diesel. Gas costs less, maintenance costs are lower, truck cost a lot less. Being a boat dealer, I tow a considerable amount. Previously had an '06 Ford 6.0, turbo exploded around 225k and then an '08 with the 6.4, lost one turbo at 6k and again at 20k. Please don't tell me that modern diesels are more reliable, nor about fuel economy. The fact is that my ecoboost can still easily pull a 8k trailer up a 6% mountain pass at 9,000'+ at 75 mpg in 5 gear at 2300 rpm with no downshifting. This new dodge will have a lot to prove vs. a modern direct injection gasser with twin turbos and twin variable overhead cams.
Modern diesels are for the most part quite reliable. You just bought the wrong ones. Surprised the 6.0 even got up to that many miles, or did it have head gaskets/studs, egr delete done earlier on?
While I like the eco boost (who doesn't like a truck with more power), not sure there are many/any with high miles on them to make an accurate comparison on longevity.
If you'd have bought a 06 Dmax or Cummins you'd probably be singing a different tune right now, IMO.
The new Ram 1500 italian motor has been around already, just a new application for the same engine.
Personally I think there's a big market for 1/2ton diesels provided the economy doesnt head back farther into the chitter or diesel prices dont skyrocket. Just like you (and I) there are many people who cant really justify a HD diesel pickup, but that's what we use for a mostly daily driver with weekend warrior towing duties under 10k lbs.
Old    Bruizza (bruizza)      Join Date: May 2009       02-25-2013, 1:20 PM Reply   
I think this is an absolute genius move on Dodge's part. A 1/2 ton diesel is perfect for someone like me.
Old    A.J. West (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-25-2013, 1:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall View Post
Modern diesels are for the most part quite reliable. You just bought the wrong ones. Surprised the 6.0 even got up to that many miles, or did it have head gaskets/studs, egr delete done earlier on?
While I like the eco boost (who doesn't like a truck with more power), not sure there are many/any with high miles on them to make an accurate comparison on longevity.
If you'd have bought a 06 Dmax or Cummins you'd probably be singing a different tune right now, IMO.
The new Ram 1500 italian motor has been around already, just a new application for the same engine.
Personally I think there's a big market for 1/2ton diesels provided the economy doesnt head back farther into the chitter or diesel prices dont skyrocket. Just like you (and I) there are many people who cant really justify a HD diesel pickup, but that's what we use for a mostly daily driver with weekend warrior towing duties under 10k lbs.
I'll agree with that. All but one of my friend's who have owned a Ford diesel has gotten rid of it and most went to Dodge and a couple went to Chevy. The one who still has his 2006 F250 only has 30k miles on it. The newer Ford diesels are no where near the quality of the old style farm truck diesels. I would be very interested in a 1/2 ton Dodge diesel since having my 5.9L Cummins went I got it in 2007. I have 172,000 miles on mine with routine maintenance only and replacing the two front wheel bearings very recently. I also do not fully use a diesel for it's intended design for hauling/towing heavy loads. My only towing is my boat and the occassional enclosed motorcycle trailer. I got my diesel for one purpose...longevity and I love the sould of a diesel. I'm 41 and have only owned 3 vehicles (all trucks) in my life. I take care of what I purchase and I'm looking forward to seeing this new 1/2 ton Dodge diesel as it would be potentially a good replacement for my 5.9L diesel if and when that time comes and at a lower price.
Old    Daniel (cowwboy)      Join Date: Jul 2008       02-25-2013, 2:18 PM Reply   
I'm still waiting for a factory CNG diesel. Best of both worlds. Get the low end torque and efficiency of the diesel, with the cheaper fuel rates of cng and no soot or carbon.
Old     (pprior)      Join Date: Jan 2012       02-25-2013, 2:40 PM Reply   
If I didn't have a personal ban on government motors products, I'd be looking at this new diesel. My F150 eco-boost pulls great, but mileage is horrid (13.0 lifetime at approx 12000 miles). A diesel will kill on the HW and last longer. Way better option IMO than small block turbo gassers.
Old    Phatboypimp (phatboypimp)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-25-2013, 3:02 PM Reply   
http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...nd-rumble.html
Old     (Thrall)      Join Date: Oct 2010       02-25-2013, 6:14 PM Reply   
The other thing that offsets the initial cost of diesel trucks (HD trucks, not the new 1/2 ton specifically) is those of us (most of us) that use them as grocery getters with occasional weekend warrior duty is the longevity of all the other components as well.
Like you da man said 172k and the only real repair has been a couple unit bearings.
The diesel (most of them) will get better mileage than any gasser pickup and the same as any suv and the whole truck is made for towing/hauling heavy. Drving it to work and back is not even stressing out any of the components.
I have yet to get less than 100k mi on front brakes on a 3/4 ton diesel (personal use), whereas every half ton I've had goes through brakes twice as fast.
Whether you do your own repairs or take it to a shop, the cost savings is real.

Doesn't pertain to the 1500 Diesel probably, but an observation from someone who remembers and puts a value to all the repairs done or NOT done.
In about 250k on my last 2 trucks (02 Dmax and 07 Cummins) I've spent less than $1000 on repair parts (not counting a couple self inflicted repairs from puttting 900ftlbs to the road) combined on both trucks. In fact the only real problem has been this Dodges crappy hydro boost pump, but those are like $60 a pop to replace the first one the rest have been free.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       02-26-2013, 12:22 PM Reply   
1/2 Ton Truck with a small diesel motor.... they are targeting me. I have an 05 Dodge 2500 with the 5.9L cummins, just like AJ, I bought it for longevity ( and at the time diesel was way cheaper than gas). I only tow my boat and an occasional trailer (bumper pull toy hauler or open bike trailer) and make dump runs or trips to Home Depot. I do not need a 2500 and have never even been close to the 13k lbs rating, so a 1500 with a small diesel (if available in 05) would be sitting in my driveway now.

Only problem is I have had this truck for 7 years, it has 140k miles on it (replaced 1 water pump, 1 thermostat, 1 serp belt, radiator hoses, currently on my second set of front pads, currently riding on my second set of factory tires, first set lasted 88k miles, and had transmission bands adjusted under warranty once) and I plan on keeping this truck another 7 years at least, so I am not in the market period. Love diesel engines.
Old    Pete (petrey10)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-26-2013, 1:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pprior View Post
If I didn't have a personal ban on government motors products, I'd be looking at this new diesel. My F150 eco-boost pulls great, but mileage is horrid (13.0 lifetime at approx 12000 miles). A diesel will kill on the HW and last longer. Way better option IMO than small block turbo gassers.
thank you for being honest with your mileage on the ecoboost... some see the sticker and get a hard on......
Old    Pete (petrey10)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-26-2013, 1:58 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by phatboypimp View Post
no way am i able/willing to spend 50k on any vehicle other than say a sportscar BUT only 1400ish bucks to upgrade from the equally eqipped gasser..... pretty easy decision there guys.....
Old    Brearly Mason (Brearly_Mason)      Join Date: Nov 2012       02-27-2013, 9:26 AM Reply   
No diesel Ford, Chevy, or Toyota half ton pickups!
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       02-27-2013, 9:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by petrey10 View Post
thank you for being honest with your mileage on the ecoboost... some see the sticker and get a hard on......

My ecooboost did get 19 overall until i put larger tires and a topper on it, then it dropped to 14. Towing though it was a dismal 9-11.
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-27-2013, 1:43 PM Reply   
The Nissan Cummins was projected to get about 35 highway 28 combined with 380 lb ft of torque. Seems very cost efficient for the extra 20 cents for diesel gas for me. My current Titan with big tow package (lowered gears) is rated at 16 highway 12 city with similar torque numbers. Normal package is 18 highway.


Gas Titan 22.4 cents a mile gas
Diesel Titan 11.0 cents a mile diesel

Even if maintainance costs are higher there is zero comparison.
Old     (Thrall)      Join Date: Oct 2010       02-27-2013, 3:16 PM Reply   
Like mentioned above, the retained value of a diesel vs gasser is largely dependent on the desireability of the particular model. Much like our high end wakeboats. A San 210 is going to be worth more than a San211 even though they appear to be about the same to the outsider. They probably cost about the same when new, cost the same to manufacture.
I had to pull a value on my 07 Dodge 5.9 diesel and inadvertently did not add the diesel option at first. The difference in NADA value was right about $8k, roughly the same as the upcharge in the first place. Also doesn't account for other "known preferences" like trans selection. You can get more money all day long and twice on Sunday for a 5.9 Cummins with a 6speed manual than the same truck with an auto trans, 48RE. NADA stil says the auto trans option is worth a grand more.
Bottom line, if the Ram 1500 diesel proves to be very reliable then it will excel at resale value. If not then it will be the next 6.0 Ferd.
Like Johnnydefacto I'm a perfect candidate for this truck, but with only 105k on my 07 I'll be looking at them in about the year 2020, maybe.
Old    Chris C (cboom12)      Join Date: Jul 2004       02-27-2013, 3:23 PM Reply   
interesting that they are claiming 30mpg with the 8 speed tranny. Curious to see how that tranny is to drive as my 6 speed shifts alot. If this truck turns out to be a hit the others will almost have to follow suit.
Old    Brearly Mason (Brearly_Mason)      Join Date: Nov 2012       02-27-2013, 4:00 PM Reply   
I would have like to had the option of buying the new 2013 Ford Ranger with the diesel in it.



Quote:
The base model 2-liter, four-cylinder, turbo-diesel engine makes around 277 lbs-feet of torque. That’s a heaping spoonful of twist and those numbers are comparable to big, gasoline V6s sold in the U.S. Better yet, it can achieve about 28 mpg.

Want more balls?

The big 3.2-liter, five-cylinder diesel makes about 347 lbs-feet of torque at 1,500 to 3,400 rpm. A six-speed manual or automatic are available. The Ford Ranger can get up to about 23 mpg with the manual and slightly less with the auto.

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