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Old    Ryan (Wakesounds)      Join Date: May 2011       02-07-2013, 3:49 PM Reply   
I've been looking around at new boats and really like the F21's, they were priced around 65k decently loaded for our boat show price and wondered what thers had seen? I also finally got a chance to view the axis line and was very disappointed with how the looked and felt very cheap. So I'm definately gonna look harder at the MB options since pricepoint could probably be in the 50's I'm hoping and I don't want to buy used.

I've heard the f21 has great surf and wakes, but how are they at a slower speed for kids or begginers?
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-07-2013, 4:10 PM Reply   
you won't get a "clean" wake under 20.5. But you'll get one side clean no prob, so I'm not sure how big of a deal that is for kids and beginners. Are there really kids that are spending years going wake to wake at 17?
Old    SS (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       02-07-2013, 4:30 PM Reply   
I've never noticed the 21's having any difficulty cleaning up at low speeds. I'm approx 200 pounds, and my go to speed on the a 21twb was full ballast at 21.5, and it was nice and clean, both sides. It gets even better with a few hundred pounds in the nose. I'd assume the F21 is going to be similar. I've ridden a number of different wakes (supra, mastercraft, nautique, centurion, malibu, tige), and the 21TWB is without any doubt my favorite. For beginners or kids, unweighted will be just fine, and with the pure vert, either filling or emptying the ballast is easy if you need to switch it out for different riders. For what it's worth, I do not and never have owned a MB.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-07-2013, 6:36 PM Reply   
Ryan..where are you located, just curious as the price you are quoting for a 21 tomcat is the same price I can get a 23 twb here In texas. I know freight can be a cause for higher prices depending where you are but that still seems a little high.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-07-2013, 7:04 PM Reply   
Bill, what options are your boats down there equipped with or is that for the base(still pretty loaded) boat with the 5.7L motor? Also, do you add freight and prep on top of the 65k?

the 65k price Ryan is talking about including freight and prep, heater, transom lights and trim plate. For the boat show there was also a grand in store credit that could be used for service, accessories or pro shop.

I am just trying to make sure we are talking apples to apples in the comparison.
Old    Ryan (Wakesounds)      Join Date: May 2011       02-07-2013, 7:10 PM Reply   
Seattle area.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-07-2013, 7:23 PM Reply   
I got a 2013 23 wb, custom boat are trailer with 18" wheels, wake plate, 2 rev 10 tower speakers, 5.7l motor, No heater since im in Texas lol. I paid 65k before TTL
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-07-2013, 7:32 PM Reply   
Sounds like you got a great deal Bill.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-07-2013, 8:13 PM Reply   
I will confirm what Shaun said about low speed wake. I owned a 21 TWB and a 21 F21 (same hull in both). You will not get a clean wake until around 20.5. If you have young kids who are learning, it's not a particularly friendly wake. However, if you kids are already experienced riders, then you will love the wake at 21mph +

You are right about the MB vs. Axis comparison... MB interiors are much nicer. But the Axis has a better low speed wake, if that's your thing.

As for pricing... I can't believe what Seattle market gets away with. That is all.

Oh, one more thing. This thread needs a pic, so here's a shot of my last F21 (she now lives in AZ). Lots to love about that boat.

Old     (Bakes)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-07-2013, 8:19 PM Reply   
My old tige 2200v has a washed out wake at lower speeds. I just move side to side in the boat depending on what side I need to clean up. It's a little ghetto but cheaper than a new boat.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-07-2013, 8:23 PM Reply   
IXFE, it looks like that tomcat had the wake plate. Did that help at all to keep the wake clean?
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-07-2013, 9:15 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
IXFE, it looks like that tomcat had the wake plate. Did that help at all to keep the wake clean?
Good question, Brett. That's a common misconception about the MB trim tab (notice, I didn't call it a wake plate).

A little bit of history on that plate. It was not originally designed as part of that hull. Back in 2009, MB was adamant that the new TWB and F21 did not need a "wake plate." In a way, they were right as the stock wake w/out a plate is fantastic above 21mph (weighted or unweighted).

The need for a plate arose in 2011 when some customers complained to the factory that at high elevation the boat took too long to plane. So MB started experimenting with the plate. You actually won't see any MB's earlier than 2011 late builds with the plate (although many MB owners have retrofitted their boats with them).

MB's trim tab (aka quick plane cavitation plate) became widely available in 2012. I believe it's a $1,500 upgrade. While originally added to help the boat plane quicker, it has a side benefit on the 21' MB's... drop the plate even just 1/4 of the way it eliminates the porpoising that the boats exhibit at 30+ mph. This was the reason I got the plate on my last MB. My earlier '09 TWB porpoised badly. Problem solved with my '12 F21. The plate also really helps the boat cut through chop (e.g. when you are cruising back to the dock on a wind blown day).

Now... the reason I tell that story is because I think the backdrop helps answer your question, Brett. The hull was not designed to use/need a plate for wake enahncement. In fact, it RUINS the wake if you put it down at any speed. It basically creates a rooster tail and washed the wake out no matter what the speed. This surprised me when I got mine. Like most, I assumed it would help "shape" the wake like so many other boats. This is why it's not called a "wake plate."

Another nice benefit of the plate... even when it's all the way up, it helps the surf wake by knocking down the wash that's typical on the port side. Weird, huh? But so true.

So if you add it all up... the "quick plane cavitation" is a must have on the 21' MB's. Shaun says it's not necessary on the 23 TWB, and I believe him.

Last edited by ixfe; 02-07-2013 at 9:17 PM.
Old    Ryan (Wakesounds)      Join Date: May 2011       02-07-2013, 10:31 PM Reply   
Great info guys! Part of the reason I like the MB's is the finish work, the boat just seems like great quality. What other options in the 50's are there with quality at a reasonable price? We don't have many dealers in the area and stock is pretty limited to look at usually. If any of you live in Washington state you would understand that its hard to pay more than 50k or so for a boat that sits most of the year!
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-08-2013, 7:08 AM Reply   
I say the wake plate is a must if you surf at all(on the 23 two in my case). I surf regular side and the plate definitely knocks the prop wash down and helps lengthen the wave a little bit
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-08-2013, 7:10 AM Reply   


This is my boat
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-08-2013, 7:31 AM Reply   
Bill, that is an amazing looking MB.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-08-2013, 7:34 AM Reply   
IXFE, not trying to dispute your experience but I am wanting to be more informed.

When you say the wake curls over under 21 mph is that with no ballast and at what line lengths? Does the entire wake curl over all the way up towards the boat?
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-08-2013, 8:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
IXFE, not trying to dispute your experience but I am wanting to be more informed.

When you say the wake curls over under 21 mph is that with no ballast and at what line lengths? Does the entire wake curl over all the way up towards the boat?
I don't think I said "curl over." What I mean is that it will be washy below 20.5mph. This is actually a fairly common observation on the MB (and many other boats for that matter). I'm certainly not the only guy who's commented on it.

When I demo a new boat, before I load it up or do anything else, I set the speed control at 18mph and try the boat unloaded for just this reason. If it's clean, I start dropping speed to see how low I can go. On the SA450 I got it down to 17mph before it washed out. That surprised me!! My kids are 13, 11, 8, and 7. So it's a big deal for us. Even my wife doesn't like riding faster than 20mph.

I might have a pic around here somewhere. I'll look.
Old    MICAH HARPER (MICAH_HARPER)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-08-2013, 8:40 AM Reply   
this is stock ballast...@ 23.6 and 80ft rope....not sure about the slower speeds havnt ever had to pull some one slow
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Old    MICAH HARPER (MICAH_HARPER)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-08-2013, 8:44 AM Reply   
MB's are great looking boats...i love my F21 there is alot of room for a 21 foot boat and for the price you cant beat the quality, wake and look.....have you looked at any used 2012's i got a good deal on mine $48k with 100hrs
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Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-08-2013, 9:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by MICAH_HARPER View Post
MB's are great looking boats...i love my F21 there is alot of room for a 21 foot boat and for the price you cant beat the quality, wake and look.....have you looked at any used 2012's i got a good deal on mine $48k with 100hrs
Sounds about right... I sold my 2012 last year for $49.5K and it had 60 hours (and every factory option)
Old    MICAH HARPER (MICAH_HARPER)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-08-2013, 9:33 AM Reply   
one on the trailer
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Old     (sandm01)      Join Date: May 2010       02-08-2013, 1:45 PM Reply   
dealer here is at 58900plus tax. it's a flat price and no negotiations. just an fyi for comparisons purpose. I do remember seeing a dealer in portland post up a similar boat for around a grand less.
crazy that same exact boat below(dealer here orders them all exactly the same) was 54900 for 2012's.

http://boise.craigslist.org/bod/3570679657.html
Old    Mike (slowwwflowww)      Join Date: Mar 2011       02-08-2013, 2:34 PM Reply   
That's a sweet looking black tomcat!
Old    Rance Taylor (DatTexasBoy)      Join Date: Aug 2012       02-08-2013, 4:53 PM Reply   
I had a chance to speak with Mike B yesterday at the DFW Boat Show and there are some good changes coming down the line on the F21 2014 models. If you can wait I think it will be worth your while. I will say that with the changes we may see another small increase in pricing though.

Mike was very pleasant to talk to and made me feel like I made the right choice on my boat. I will be ordering a new one in 2015.
Old    Rance Taylor (DatTexasBoy)      Join Date: Aug 2012       02-08-2013, 4:57 PM Reply   
Just a pic
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Old    Cole K (SkySki)      Join Date: Feb 2010       02-08-2013, 7:36 PM Reply   
Is this the MB picture posting thread? I don't want to be left out
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Old    Ryan (Wakesounds)      Join Date: May 2011       02-08-2013, 7:58 PM Reply   
All great looking boats!

DatTexasBoy- did they mention anything specific as far as changes? I would be curious to know what they had in mind for surfing and wake shaping.

I'm not looking for used at the moment and yeah I could wait if somethings worth waiting for! I looked at some of the other options that might be better at low speeds for families like the VLX and the prices are just too high for the amount of time I spend on the lake. So if I sacrifice low speed wakes for an extra 20-30k, I think I'm ok with that for now.
Old    Rance Taylor (DatTexasBoy)      Join Date: Aug 2012       02-09-2013, 5:55 AM Reply   
None of the changes are specific to wake, surfing or other. They will be more cosmetic.
Old    Tommy G (tommyg)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-09-2013, 6:46 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by DatTexasBoy View Post
I had a chance to speak with Mike B yesterday at the DFW Boat Show and there are some good changes coming down the line on the F21 2014 models. If you can wait I think it will be worth your while. I will say that with the changes we may see another small increase in pricing though.

Mike was very pleasant to talk to and made me feel like I made the right choice on my boat. I will be ordering a new one in 2015.
One of the things I love most about going to the boat show is the chance to talk to folks like Mike. We met him last year at the Sacramento boat show...told my wife, "hey Honey, see this MB? Well, this is MB.". lol. He was a great guy, very unassuming. Also have chatted with Shawn Murray in the past, and had Zane spend 20 minutes walking us through a Mastercraft at one of the shows. It's nice to still get that level of access.
Old    Ryan (Wakesounds)      Join Date: May 2011       02-11-2013, 3:25 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by DatTexasBoy View Post
None of the changes are specific to wake, surfing or other. They will be more cosmetic.
Are you gonna tell us what they have in mind, or should we guess?

Has anybody owned both the WB and the Tomcat? I'm just curious what the main differences/benifits are between the two beside the obvious looks?
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-11-2013, 3:49 PM Reply   
I haven't owned both bit I ride in the 23 and tomcat 21 all the time. The 23 has a slightly different wake(a tad taller and little more pop from what all the guysbinride with say). Other than that there isn't much difference other than 2 ft longer and 200 lb more ballast
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-11-2013, 3:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakesounds View Post
Are you gonna tell us what they have in mind, or should we guess?

Has anybody owned both the WB and the Tomcat? I'm just curious what the main differences/benifits are between the two beside the obvious looks?
I owned a 2009 TWB 21 and a 2012 F21 Tomcat.

The hulls are exactly the same. The wake characteristics are the same.

The difference is the bow (obviously). There is also a subte difference in the width of the cabin. While they are both 100" beem, the TWB has narrower gunnels than the TWB by a few inches. So the interior of the TWB is wider than the F21. It's hardly noticable, but it's there.



Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       02-11-2013, 5:04 PM Reply   
I don't want to be left out either
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Old    Rance Taylor (DatTexasBoy)      Join Date: Aug 2012       02-11-2013, 5:28 PM Reply   
I can't give the details out on what was told, but you will be seeing something around May or a little after. Sorry I was asked not to tell. It is going to be a nice change.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-11-2013, 6:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
I owned a 2009 TWB 21 and a 2012 F21 Tomcat.
What boat did you love the most?
Old    A.J. West (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-11-2013, 7:05 PM Reply   
Went to Texas Mastercraft last Friday with my buddy to get his F21. It appears you can negotiate the price down to the mid 50's without much argument. We met the owner of MB (Mike) at the dealership and he signed the underside of the glovebox lid of buddy's F21. Mike also said there will be a pretty cool upcoming changes in the Spring for MB. The stock (loaded) wake is pretty dang sick even down to around 21mph...very vertical. The F21 turns very flat/level at full throttle without cavitating. The boat just rails. Throttle seemed a little touchy as soon as it went into gear but we got used to it quick.

Last edited by you_da_man; 02-11-2013 at 7:07 PM.
Old    Ryan (Wakesounds)      Join Date: May 2011       02-11-2013, 8:20 PM Reply   
Are the changes significant enough that they will change pricing?
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-11-2013, 8:39 PM Reply   
When I talked to Mike I think he said no or at least not significantly.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-11-2013, 9:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
What boat did you love the most?
That's tough question. We purchased our '09 TWB off the lot. Obviously we liked it enough to buy it. But the F21 was a custom build so we got to choose colors and load up on more options. Also, the F21 had the long list of improvements that MB made in 2012 model year (nicer interior, tower/rack fixes, trim plate, etc.).

I suppose if you normalize for color and options, I'd choose the TWB over the F21. I just like the look/profile a little better. Totally subjective.

The real gem in MB's line-up is the TWB 23. I think it both looks and performs the best.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-11-2013, 9:04 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkySki View Post
Is this the MB picture posting thread? I don't want to be left out
SAGUARO! I think i saw you out there two summers ago! We are in a Red Tige 20V
Old    D.F.T.R. Josh (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005       02-11-2013, 10:23 PM Reply   
DBC's pic of that TOMCAT is epic... Almost made an offer on his then the dealer came in with a offer to order one for myself... Can't say how happy I'm with my TOMCAT decision.
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Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-12-2013, 12:00 AM Reply   
thanks dbc, l like the twb 23 too.
Old    Scott R (ScottR)      Join Date: Aug 2011       02-14-2013, 10:52 AM Reply   
Sold this end of summer last year. Was my favorite boat of all time 21' 2012 TWB
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Old    SS (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       02-14-2013, 8:45 PM Reply   
ScottR, I see you're from Kokomo. Where do you ride? I'm going to have inlaws in that neck of the woods.

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