Articles
   
       
       
Pics/Video
   
       
       
Shop
Search
 
 
 
 
 
Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
WAKE WORLD HOME
Email Password
Go Back   WakeWorld > Non-Wakeboarding Discussion

Share 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-14-2012, 12:26 PM Reply   
So due to the shooting today facebook has blown up with tons of posts (these are actual posts from facebook friends):

1. I just want to hug my family and friends, and tell them I love them!! Prayers and may Gods words ease your pain, to those from Conn. So sorry for what you are going through.

2. Thoughts and prayers go out to the families!

3. such a tragedy in Newtown, CT...one can only try & find peace of mind knowing that they're now living in the grace of God, out of this sick & twisted world...

4. Those in Connecticut need our thoughts and prayers more than ever. Tragic.

.... so I am not a religious man, at all, so take this with a grain of salt

.... does it seem just stupid to anyone else to "Pray" to a God that allowed this to happen in the first place? How to people get solace in "praying" in the wake of a tragedy and making it okay that these people were killed because they're "with God now".

As far as I understand, the all knowing and powerful God / Jesus / Holy Spirit / Allah / Buddah / who-ever you pick should have been able to have this guy's gun jam with divine intervention, or maybe he would have choked on his breakfast this morning stopping him before this all.... but no, instead innocent people are dead.


/rant.
Old    Justin Harrelson (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       12-14-2012, 1:09 PM Reply   
If you believe in God or not, prayer makes a difference. Next time you are stressing-out try getting quite, closing your eyes, talking it through in your own head and then giving-up on the worries. Most of the time all prayer does is calm you down and help you realize that it is going to be alright because that is the way it is and there is nothing you can do about it. Prayer for others is a way to say, "I care and I am thinking about you."

1.) If I were God, I would make the gun jam too, but I am not.

2.) Every Christian, agnostic and atheist at some point wonders, "Why do bad things happen to good people and why do good things happen to bad?" It is Human.

I hope you realize that even "believers" have the same questions. Your rant is valid.

As a Christian, I believe that God's plan is greater than what I can understand and that we are all just a tiny part. Sometimes it sucks. All I can do is pray for grace for all those directly effected by tragedy.

Also, I usually avoid religious discussions because I'm not a very "good" Christian. I'm not the best example, but I believe what I believe--even if I am a jackass.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-14-2012, 1:22 PM Reply   
Thank you for chiming in, sometimes I just don't get it... I just can't grasp the whole religion thing.... and days like today are those.
I would never try and take religion away from anyone or try and diminish their beliefs, I just have such a hard time wrapping my head around it all. I think, just like you said, for many it provides and escape, and explanation, or provides peace... and that is what I think it is there for.

With that said though, when you say "I would make the gun jam too" .... to me that makes you a better person than God, which I'm sure in the eyes of the religious, is totally blasphemous; but honestly if God is all powerful and all knowing, that shooter should have been stopped.


The event that really did it for me, is a few years back a tornado hit a few mile south of where we lived, we had close family friends die from it, two of the most good-hearted religious people I have ever met. Their neighbors, 50 feet away, were pieces of **** people and survived. The neighbors got on the news because of the tornado saying "OH GOD WAS LOOKING OUT FOR US THAT DAY, JESUS SAVED US!" ..... that was the moment I started to give up on it all.

My fiance is very religious and I would love nothing more than to "get it" for her sake, but in the wake of stuff like today makes it reaaaaalllly hard.


Thanks again for chiming in, I in no way meant disrespect, just trying to make sense of how people believe what they believe despite these tragedies.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       12-14-2012, 1:31 PM Reply   
Or maybe its the lack of religion in our society that has brought these occurances on. I am not religious either but do feel the morals of our society have deteriorated. Plus I don't think God gets involved with free will.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-14-2012, 1:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Or maybe its the lack of religion in our society that has brought these occurances on.
I would disagree, I think more killing has been done in the name of God than just random acts of violence. Also I just saw a study saying around .3% of the prison population was atheist, 75% Catholic. I think if more religious people went off of the WWJD mentality, you're right, things would be good. More often than not people pick and choose parts of the bible though and then I feel it loses its meaning.

.... Ultimately I think just being religious doesn't mean you're not an *******, not being an ******* means you'r not an *******.

There was a quote from Ghadi that sums it up perfectly for me:
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-14-2012, 1:47 PM Reply   
Quote:
I think i read that during the mall shooting the gun did jam....
Oh good, that saved the lives of over a dozen kids today.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       12-14-2012, 1:50 PM Reply   
"I would disagree"

and thats fine.
Old    Adam Van Dyke (lfadam)      Join Date: Nov 2008       12-14-2012, 1:54 PM Reply   
One thing that I have pondered is that prayer is totally useless unless it is a prayer of thanks. If you pray FOR anything, you are wasting your time. Because if you believe that God is all-knowing and you believe in "God's Plan" then he already knows what is going to happen and will do it whether or not you ask for it. You're not going to change his mind. If he already has made his plan and already knows what is going to happen, your voice is insignificant. Ex. If you pray for your sick nephew to live...God has already decided that he will live or he will die, so there's no point of asking. Same with if you pray for a job...he has already decided when your next employment will be and what you will do with your life, so you might as well just see how it pans out. Same with praying for World Peace every Sunday at church. If God wants world peace, we will get it. Until then, you aren't going to change his mind, so cut that 10 minutes out of the service.

Prayers of thanks are therefore the only prayer I could see as being worthwhile. Anyone disagree? Never understood the "ask and you shall receive" ideas of the book of Matthew.
Old    Rich (digg311)      Join Date: Sep 2007       12-14-2012, 1:54 PM Reply   
Isn't God omnipotent? So he knows all that will ever happen? So... even if this is "the work of the devil", that wouldn't matter. God saw it coming and chose to let it happen. In fact, that's true for everything right? Prayer means nothing because God already knows what he's gonna do or allow from now through the end of time... right?
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-14-2012, 2:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Isn't God omnipotent? So he knows all that will ever happen? So... even if this is "the work of the devil", that wouldn't matter. God saw it coming and chose to let it happen.
That is exactly what I was getting at. He is all powerful and all knowing... this **** shouldn't be able to go down.
Old    Train (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       12-14-2012, 2:42 PM Reply   
Most prisoners are catholic, because either they "find god" in prison, or based on the state i live in, a majority are hispanic. Not being racial, just stating facts about religion inside prisons.
I agree with you nick. Half the reason i am an atheist, is because i dont believe a "god" would allow innocents to be murdered like this, or have innocent children be stricken with such horrible diseases.

Days like today just make me thankful that i have my family at my side, and we are all healthy. I will definitely be thinking about those who lost their kids today, when i am holding mine.
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-14-2012, 6:16 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by sppeders View Post
Put two and two together. You asked why God didn't jam the gun, maybe that is why the mall shooting wasn't worse than it was. Who knows how many lives were spared by the jammed gun.
By that reasoning, that's a pretty non-omnipotent pathetic god that can only jam a gun and save a few people.

Let's get real, though, if there was a god that gave a damn about people on earth, the place would be filled with a whole lot less human tragedy. Whenever I see or hear people praying for something like a job or a sports win or something else stupid, I think about all the kids and people starving to death everyday. It's just ridiculous.
Old    Dooie (dooie)      Join Date: Feb 2007       12-14-2012, 6:33 PM Reply   
this isn't really the time or place to be arguing about religion. no matter what you believe, its a horrific thing. Everyone over here in Australia are in shock over what has happened as most would be around the world. My thoughts are with you all, especially those involved.
Old    Justin Harrelson (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       12-14-2012, 7:15 PM Reply   
I think this is one of the best discussions all year. Were it zeaching, the sovens or tiny we'd be ripping each others heads off.

To me, this tragedy is bringing a little unity and a concern for the big stuff.

I wonder if there is something we can do as a community??
Old    Mike Klarenbeek (wakecrzy2000)      Join Date: Apr 2004       12-14-2012, 7:24 PM Reply   
I feel like this question is fairly common in peoples' lives when things get hard. Where is God? Why didn't God stop this from happening? I know this might sound funny to some but I believe there is a life after this and that God gives everyone a choice.
A lot of people wonder "why give people a choice to do something? Why let a man murder?" God gave us choice to choose Him. In my mind, what good is praise unless a person chooses to praise?
I am praying for those affected by the shooting, want to know what I am praying for? Forgiveness, it takes more than a strong person to forgive these actions, it takes a creator, a God, a Savior.

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. "
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-14-2012, 8:59 PM Reply   
I think many non believers perspective is one of the human view of the world and life. I think that is where Brett is at. I would not ever claim to know the answer absolutely, but I think the perspective would be if the ultimate prize is ever lasting life in the presence of a loving God, then what matter is the tick in time that is the human condition. I can't claim to understand the methods or perspective of God. Maybe those children are now in the presence of God and saved from some other suffering. Maybe they were taken home and the tragedy is then a tool to lead others to God. Maybe some of their parents end up saved because of this. Not saying this makes anyone's pain and suffering of the now go away. Does not mean we will understand it. From the point of a believer, you have to trust that for some reason this is God's greater plan. I know it sounds simplistic and uncaring. I am not trying to portray that but mention it as a general perspective but what else are you supposed to do in general? If you dwell on it, it will only consume you. The world is full of suffering of various sorts. Many times it is self inflicted and many times not. Who knows but dwelling will consume you. I know the bible talks about grieving. Jesus even wept at the funeral of a stranger and spoke about it.

At the end of the day, the human condition is a lifetime of some sort of suffering. Again sometimes self inflicted and sometimes it is not anyone's fault and sometimes it is someone's fault. What are you supposed to do? Angry? Bitter? Shutdown? Drugs? Alcohol? Act out? Punish others? Find inner peace? Faith in a better existence? Help others? Love one another? Hold each other accountable? All sorts of different ways to go and the bible does talk about these things. The overriding theme is forgiveness for the evil people who did this and trust in God. The inverse could be you can choose the typical human solutions and self destruct. I just hope regardless that the people involved can come to some sort of peace in their lives after this. This was horrible.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       12-14-2012, 9:07 PM Reply   
If praying helps the individual cope then great, if not jog on. There are no answers or secret knowledge imo, everyone is muddling through life the best they can. Enjoy the ride if you can.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-14-2012, 9:43 PM Reply   
"I know it sounds simplistic and uncaring."

It might not just sound that way - it might actually be that way.
Old    Eric Anderson (e_rock32)      Join Date: Oct 2009       12-15-2012, 1:36 AM Reply   
The book of Job in the Bible is the answer to the age old question of "Why do bad things happen to good people?" and "How to respond to tragic events" Job loses his house, all his possessions, and all his children. Satan was attempting to have Job curse God. His friends claim that he must have done something to deserve the unfortunate series of events... or karma type approach. But Job realized that this life is a test of faith. Unfortunate incidents can tear your faith apart, or they can build your faith stronger. God wants faithful servants, and while he is all powerful, he allows bad things to happen so faith can grow. Just as you can't learn to be the best at wakeboarding without falling, you also can't earn faith without going through tragedy (it's sad, but that is what this world is and we will all face incidences in our life).
Old    Eric Anderson (e_rock32)      Join Date: Oct 2009       12-15-2012, 1:45 AM Reply   
Keep in mind that Job is mentioned in the Bible, Koran, and Torah, so whether you believe in God or not, you must understand that the account of Job's life shows the basis to the religious philosophy of tragedy.
Old    Akadirtbikingdad (wakeboardingdad)      Join Date: Aug 2008       12-15-2012, 7:04 AM Reply   
Nick, Eric and Delta summed it up best. I know from personal tragedy that I wrestle with some of your same concerns. I asked those same questions and still do. However, not as much as I used to. We did everything right and believed in God. I could go on but I do rant too from time to time. I have to. It is part of grieving. Right after our loss I asks God why he took my son instead of the killer in Colorado or the man who killed his wife and kids or the child molester in the local news. I even asked why he did not take other children from other parents who didn't even care for their kids. I hated God but knew he was the pathway to Heaven where'd I'd see my son again. One of the things that made me the most angry was when people would thank God for blessings and curse satan for tragedy. God is always in control and he allowed this to happen. To my family and all those who are stricken by some tragedy or loss. It sucks. However as bad as it seems today I can only hope there is a plan of God's that is better than the path we were all on. Maybe it was, as someone said, for these people to gather together or me to be more reverent to God and appreciate everything else I have. I do not know. However, while God could have stopped this or my loss, he didn't. Why? Because he has a plan and he gave people the power of free will.

In the end, we do not know what these occurrence will have on peoples lives. Good? Bad? It depends on the people and the strength of their faith. Will there be pain? Yes. Does God promise his followers, no matter how faithful, no pain? No.

Finally, when I saw this event yesterday on the news my mind went directly to the parents and families. Not long ago I would have asked why not the one killer instead of someone else who had faith and a future. All those kids would have been saved! Now, next week I may not be so faithful. I may curse God for what has happened to me, to these families or some new "victim". The good news is that God understands our pain and realizes the decisions he makes are not alway popular. Just like the decision a parent makes for their child. We may not understand but we have to believe there is a plan that is ultimately better than the one we are on. Also while God understands our sadness and anger he can also take our sadness and anger away. We just have to ask him to. But we also have to commit and have faith.

I got off track there and said more than I had planned. Also please forgive any typos and such. I am on my phone at the doctors office with back pain. My prayers go out to the parents and families of the victims yesterday. Eric,Delta and others thanks for your posts also.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-15-2012, 7:45 AM Reply   
This goes to show that God is irrelevant and the true solution is to learn to treat our fellow human being with love and respect. But we are the products of evolution, which has the elements of both God (love) and Satan (evil) in its roots. How odd that in China a man also injured a bunch of elementary school kids with a knife. None died.
Old    L H (sports_gurl)      Join Date: Jun 2011       12-15-2012, 8:22 AM Reply   
As a non religious person, I've prayed. It really is something to just collect your thoughts, realize what matters, let your true feelings surface in private. Prayer never hurt anyone, and to each their own. In all things in life, our actions do speak louder than our words, thoughts and prayers. But the intention of prayer is usually positive, taking that moment to collect your thoughts, think deeply about a situation and even decide on your actions is very important.

I saw the article about the Chinese school.... he did manage to stab 22 kids but no one has been reported dead yet. Stabbing is so much more personal, and needs much more aggression than a cowardly point and fire, fire, fire. You can even close your eyes and kill innocent people with a gun. I live in Canada, we aren't perfect, but i've been here 27 years, I've never seen a Handgun with my own eyes, ever. Now I grew up in a small farming town, everyone hunts, we have shotguns and rifles, to own them you have to have a Possessions licence(cost $150 and must pass a test) to own a hand gun you have to have a restricted possessions licence($250), and still can only carry it to and from the shooting range. To buy bullets you need to show your Possessions licence. Sure you could get them on the black market.... but when you're 20 years old and don't see guns every day or have access to them.... Not as many will just seek them out or think of them as their number one weapon. I heard some people saying that the teachers should have guns, now that is ridiculous.... Ya Like a teacher never has a seriously bad day, doing the hardest job in America, trying to teach peoples bratty undisciplined kid, i'm sure they never get stressed and blackout. I'm not saying they'd all use a gun(probably on themselves)... but man, I wouldn't doubt if it'd happen. (Sorry i'm ranting, don't mean to open the can of worms)

I'll take a moment and pray for Connecticut and all kids today. Truly a tragedy that will rock that town for years. The fear is that we forget what this feels like, to be this devastated. Let us never be numb to these emotions, and let our actions always speak louder than our words.
Old    Train (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       12-15-2012, 8:59 AM Reply   
If you would prefer to live in china john, have at it.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-15-2012, 9:22 AM Reply   
Prayer is very powerful. God gives us a focal point for prayer. Never the less, god is entirely man made. A fictitious friend that we interact with and rally behind. A postive thing in many cases. Only a problem when a religion is at odds with religious freedom (for example, Islamic Extremists want Islam to rule the world by forced adoption).
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-15-2012, 9:27 AM Reply   
Or when people make ludicrous justifications like "god allowed those kids to be killed so they could be with him immediately - how lucky they are!" Ridiculous. By that Fd up logic the best thing we could do for everyone is simply make our way down the street mowing them all down.
Old    Jason (jtech)      Join Date: Aug 2008       12-15-2012, 9:57 AM Reply   
I love how people use tragedy to push their own agenda every time:

Why would God let this happen? There must not be a God if things like this happen. Religion is stupid and people that believe are ignorant.

We should ban assault weapons and Hi-Cap mags! Make guns illegal!

The fact of the matter is the last two shootings probably don't happen if the GUN OWNER had locked up their guns and not allowed access to the safe combo. Gun control starts with the owner and ends with the owner. The other issue is a civil rights one. We allow people with mental illness to live freely in society and then gasp when they "snap" and act out their inner rage on the general public. As much as we would all like to believe that God will protect us, all gun owners are responsible and people with mental illness are no harm to society, it is simply not the case. My AR and Glock are in the safe and I am the only one who has the combo. My son will get the combo when he reads my will, period. His guns reside in the safe and are only brought out when I open it. When he moves out I will gladly buy him a safe and hope that he locks them up. Common sense solves the problem, not banning things or thinking that a higher power will save the day.

Make the schools safer. Have trained, armed security on staff at every school. There are many retired ex-military and police that would probably do it for free one day a week. I know I would. Banning guns will solve nothing. The drug addicted still get drugs, the criminals will still find guns, politicians will still spend more than we have in the bank.

**Every day, almost 30 people in the United States die in motor vehicle crashes that involve an alcohol-impaired driver. This amounts to one death every 48 minutes.1 The annual cost of alcohol-related crashes totals more than $51 billion.** http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafet...factsheet.html

It's not a gun or alcohol problem we have, it's a mental health/common sense problem.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-15-2012, 10:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttrigo View Post
If you would prefer to live in china john, have at it.
Case in point.
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       12-15-2012, 10:06 PM Reply   
Been reading through this thread a little today and just wanted to share some thoughts. The recent tragedy we all witnessed was shocking and horrifying to say the least. My heart breaks for those families that lost loved ones for no apparent reason. I've been posting on wake world for several years and most people who have read my posts from time to time know where i stand on the God issue. There are however some things you need to understand.

First God has given every one of us a will of our own. 2. God does have a plan, a purpose for each of us. That being said, rarely is God's plan ever carried out. Gods will for us is rarely followed. Many people like to say well it must have been Gods will......or everything happens for a reason. If you think about it, none of that makes sense. Ask yourself this, when was the last time you opened your Bible and really studied it? When was the last time you went to a quiet place and really seeked Gods will for your life? The Bible says that 1/3 of the Angles were cast out of heaven with Satan. It also says that satan goes around seeking to destroy and cause pain and death in the earth. Whether you believe it or you don;t I am simply telling you what the Bible says about situations like what just happened. So the gunmen obviously has his own mind, his own will and every decision he made in his life lead him to the event that happened yesterday. There is a scripture that says O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! What God is saying is Hey Dan hey GD Hey Jason Hey Wes..How often I wanted you to spend time in my presence but you would not. When we reach out to God he reaches out to us. Everyone is quick to judge why God would let something like this or any other horrible event take place. Yet we sit around and let millions of babies be slaughtered every year in a mothers womb. 27 people were gunned down yesterday and we ask God why? Thousands of babies were slaughtered yesterday and we have made it legal. I'm not here to argue abortion, it is the law of the land. I'm just saying how hypocritical are we to ask God why? Satan is the ruler of this world according to Gods word. God has given him authority over it. That being said, satan does not have authority over a born again spirit filled believer. The problem is we are very few and far between. The further we push God out of this nation, the more prevalent things like this will be. If education was the cure, our facilities of higher learning would be the most moral places on earth, but they aren't.. Is religion the cure? I think not! Religion usually results in man trying to follow man made rules and regulations which just reminds us of our failure to be able to keep the rules. Then what is the answer? The answer my friends is Jesus. Plain and simple dying to ourselves and letting Jesus show us how to live. Jesus was God in the flesh yet he took a bowl of water right after the disciples were all talking about which one of them were the greatest. What did Jesus do? He took a water basin filled it with water and soap and washed all their feet. Remember back then they wore sandals and there were no paved roads, no nail clippers their feet must have been pretty bad. Yet the creator of all things stooped down and washed the creations feet. How much love does he have for us? It's not about religion, it's about having the same love that Jesus had, we can't have that unless we let him in.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-16-2012, 10:49 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by poser007 View Post
Ask yourself this, when was the last time you opened your Bible and really studied it? When was the last time you went to a quiet place and really seeked Gods will for your life?
You asked the question, but gave no clue as to why? Are you suggesting that if we don't do this that we are destined to gun down children or something similar. I believe that I'm perfectly capable of leading a life that contributes to the good of society without needing God to tell me what to do. I claimed that God is irrelevant and haven't seen a word to convince me otherwise.

Yes, it is true that people with mental or emotional problems need a crutch or help, and the church and belief in God can fulfill that need. Just as belief in healing can in itself be healing. The human mind and body is complex. But what we perceive to be real isn't necessarily the actual reality. Nor does it need to be. A person who gets well from an illness because they believed God would heal them doesn't need to know the real reason. If may not have even worked if they didn't have that belief.

The bottom line is that weapons contribute to death and destruction. The most violent places on this planet are were the weapons exist. Acknowledging reality isn't the same as advocating specific changes. I know that it's unreasonable to outlaw guns in this country. I just don't like people living in denial because they are afraid of what the consequences may be if they don't.

I know my first post, and maybe this one sounds like the rambling of a hippy. But the difference is that I don't believe that the world can be changed like that, whereas a hippy thinks change is possible just by recognizing the need. It will take an evolving human consciousness possibly precipitated by things out of our control to achieve a world of humans that work smoothly and cooperatively. In the meantime it's just stuff in the minds of men and found where movies and books are made.
.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-16-2012, 10:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by poser007 View Post
It's not about religion, it's about having the same love that Jesus had, we can't have that unless we let him in.
Oops I wanted to respond to this as well. Assuming you mean "let him in" as a metaphor for understanding his words and taking them to heart you are spot on. The Christian religion and it's followers have to a great degree distorted the real meaning of his philosophy. Religion has taken his evolved philosophies and turned it into little more than a free pass for eternal life. That isn't a blanket condemnation of all Christians because I believe that Christians are normal people who are just as capable of understanding the evolved teaching of Jesus equally as non-Christians.
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       12-17-2012, 8:12 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
I believe that I'm perfectly capable of leading a life that contributes to the good of society without needing God to tell me what to do.
.
This.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       12-17-2012, 10:01 AM Reply   
going back to Nick's original question: We're not solving anything by praying but it may help one's mind. It doesn't help me so I'm not doing it.

Not buying a hand gun or a semi-automatic weapon of any kind may help more. Preventing them from reaching the market outside the 'military' business even more. A gun's sole purpose is to kill. If you hunt you still kill but I'm okay with that aspect. A revolver has no other purpose - you ain't using it for hunting.

The argument brought up earlier about drunken driving is utterly flawed. We as a society have figured out that the value of the car or more so it's purpose outweighs the negative aspects of accidents etc. The same applies to knives for example - cutting food into eatable pieces is helpful and I prefer not to always use my teeth to chop something up.

I'm not going to repeat John's (fly135) points beyond that - I agree wholeheartedly including the statement that I don't need a god of any faith to tell me how to live a life in decency and contribute to the society to the best of my abilities.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       12-17-2012, 10:18 AM Reply   
I think that trying to equate a human's intelligence and/or understanding to that of a god (no matter which one you believe in) is where you may be going wrong. You're making the assumption that what makes sense to you, should also make sense to God, and vice versa. Here's a story I once heard that illustrates what I'm trying to say.

I think we can all agree that the gap between the intelligence of a bear and a human is pretty significant. If a bear is stuck in a trap and a human is trying to help the bear by freeing him from the trap, it's a very dangerous situation because the bear doesn't have the intelligence to understand that, in the big picture, the human is doing something to benefit the bear. The bear will be angry and frustrated by this lack of understanding.

I think that most people that believe in God would agree that the gap between the intelligence of a human and their God is even greater than the gap between bear and man. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that we, as humans, will never grasp God's "big picture" plan and when tragedies occur we have trouble making sense of them and that leads to a lot of frustration,
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-17-2012, 11:07 AM Reply   
I have no problem "making sense" of this tragedy. There is plenty of evidence of aberrant human behavior to understand that things like this will happen. I have a problem with bears telling other bears that humans have a plan for them even if the bears have never seen a human.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-17-2012, 11:10 AM Reply   
Wes. I understand what your saying but that is not what they are saying. It is rational of faith. All people regardless of faith go through the phases of grief. When tragedy strikes everyone secretly is glad it is not them but may or may not go through the grief process. If it hits really close, they still secretly are happy it was not them but now they may have survivors guilt and or may go through the phases of grief.. If it is you, then there is clearly the phases of grief. As a Christian at the end of it, the only thing you can hope (because you will never know until you know no matter how you feel) that those who were stricken are in a better place. That is the only positive position one can have. I can not conceive of any other position that a person can have that can be healthy on the mind. It is not uncaring, it is healthy.

As soon as your born, you are dying. No way around it. It is the human condition. Your fellow man or woman is going to die one way or the other. It is a sad sad reality and as someone who lost a father at 8, a mother at 25 and a brother at 34. All my aunts and uncles are gone except one and only knew one grandparent. Hell, I had to move 2500 miles to make my way in life so the rest of my family may as well be gone too since I never get to see them. Point is, it is hard. Would it be healthy if I lived my life in grief? Should I feel sorry for myself? It is selfish behavior if I did because I would then be a burden on those around me that care for me. Was I sad when this things happened in my life? Sure. Am I sad that bad things happen to other people? Sure I do but I and you and everyone else has to drive on and the only thing I can logically do is hope this was part of Gods plan. Either that or I just say that is F-ed up but either way, have to move on.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-17-2012, 12:42 PM Reply   
"As a Christian at the end of it, the only thing you can hope (because you will never know until you know no matter how you feel) that those who were stricken are in a better place. That is the only positive position one can have. I can not conceive of any other position that a person can have that can be healthy on the mind. It is not uncaring, it is healthy."

Why can't it be both? It can be selfishly "healthy" in the sense that thinking this way gives comfort to someone thinking about their loss, but it is decidedly uncaring and I would argue unhealthy for society to diminish the loss in this way.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-18-2012, 6:37 AM Reply   
Quote:
"where was God?, we've spent the last 50 years kicking him out of our schools."
This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard and they are blasting it like crazy on facebook/news

God was with Daniel in the lion's den - right?
God was with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego - right?
God was with ALL the martyrs of the New Testament - right?
etc. etc. etc......
but this same God, creator of the whole universe, all powerful and all knowing is currently ignoring the prayers of those who believe because of a 1962 Supreme Court decision......

That makes sense.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-18-2012, 8:30 AM Reply   
Nothing new, Nick. The most hilarious are the sports figures who thank god for the win - as if god couldn't be bothered to smite this loon before he blew away a grip of 6 year olds, but has plenty of time to make sure his fav wins Monday Night Football.
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       12-18-2012, 8:36 AM Reply   
I can't stand it when people say it's "God's plan". IMO, if "God's plan" involves killing 20 innocent kids then I want no part of it.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-18-2012, 8:37 AM Reply   
Amen.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-18-2012, 9:21 AM Reply   
Holy crap. If this is god's "plan" then god certainly needs to drop his "all loving" moniker.

There is no god. It's totally obvious for so many reasons.

There are only human's that need/want/enjoy this man-made entity in their lives. Party on with your god of choice!
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-18-2012, 9:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
The most hilarious are the sports figures who thank god for the win
Haha, agreed.... as I take that it means God was rooting for their team and not the other guys, that is how he works.

When we were making the move to Minneapolis my fiance' asked me to pray for her to get the job she reaaaalllly wanted. I said there was no way I would do it, which she didn't take kindly to. I told her that if she was going to get the job it was because she went to school, prepared her self well enough to be hired, and had earned it on her own; there is no way God gave a **** about her job.... and if he did use his power to get her the job while kids are dying of AIDS like crazy or eating trash covered in flies like those commercials, than God has a sick sense of humor.


.... I was talking to my dad about this the other day and he said, "God does jack-**** in mysterious ways", which that makes sense to me.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-18-2012, 9:52 AM Reply   
Never the less, Huckabee has a point as I acknowledge GOD to be a very powerful encapsulation of belief.

One could argue that a massively god fearing god indoctrinated culture would likely see less of this stuff.

For example, the outcome may have been different if mon took her troubled son to church instead of the shooting range.

Last edited by diamonddad; 12-18-2012 at 10:00 AM.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-18-2012, 9:56 AM Reply   
About the shooting range - yes - it certainly wasn't the brightest idea for a mom who knew her son to be severely troubled to buy such weapons and take him shooting.

As for the whole religious thing, however, the homicide stats don't really seem to bear that out. Just a snippet:



"South" is South Korea
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-18-2012, 10:10 AM Reply   
You are right. Any other hobby other than the gun range would have helped to avoid this tragedy.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-18-2012, 10:14 AM Reply   
Quote:
There are only human's that need/want/enjoy this man-made entity in their lives. Party on with your god of choice!
Amen!
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-18-2012, 10:51 AM Reply   
You guys still don't understand when people say it is God's Will. No one is going up to the family and telling them that it was best God took your daughter or son. No one is not telling them to forget about it and not grieve. Jesus even says to grieve. All people are saying is at the end of the day you hope it is in God's plan and to give it to him. No person can bear that cross especially burying your child but at the end of the day, you have to let it go or you will not function.

Since you like to bash the Christian view. What are you doing for this tragedy? What do you make of it? Blame objects? Blame lack of government? How do you deal with death in your family? You seem to have the answers. What do you tell someone? Let's hear your insight. Love to hear it.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-18-2012, 11:26 AM Reply   
^Why not just come out and say it? "Blame objects", no you mean blame guns. Argue it however you want, but without the guns, this tragedy never happens.
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       12-18-2012, 11:35 AM Reply   
What Delta? Who said we had the answers? I make of it the same as most people do.. it's a tragic crime committed by a very troubled person. What do I tell friends/family members who have lost someone? That I am there to help however I can and that I am very sorry for their loss. You are the one that brought up blame in the context of what I wrote, not me. I have no idea what is to blame, how can any of us? I just dislike when people say bad things are in God's plan.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-18-2012, 11:49 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
^Why not just come out and say it? "Blame objects", no you mean blame guns.
Maybe...
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
I know that it's unreasonable to outlaw guns in this country. I just don't like people living in denial because they are afraid of what the consequences may be if they don't.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-18-2012, 12:05 PM Reply   
Quote:
You guys still don't understand when people say it is God's Will. No one is going up to the family and telling them that it was best God took your daughter or son. No one is not telling them to forget about it and not grieve. Jesus even says to grieve. All people are saying is at the end of the day you hope it is in God's plan and to give it to him.
You hope it is in God's plan... meaning all along, his plan was to have a maniac gun down someone's kid.... a parent of any of those kids who died would punch you in the face if you hinted at that.
If it wasn't in God's plan, that what the heck was it? God only plans for some people and the rest get picked off one by one?


Quote:
What are you doing for this tragedy?
I am personally doing nothing.... not much I can do 1200 miles away. I feel for those families, it is going to be a ****ty Christmas, it is awful. How is what I am doing any better/worse than folding my hands and saying a few words in my head to God before bed?

Quote:
What do you make of it?
I put the blame on the shooter, the mother (sounds like she had some notion he was starting to lose it), and anyone who didn't act if they were alerted to his plans. At the point the news coverage has been shotty at best regarding facts on this whole thing. From what I am starting to gather the mother was a bit of a dooms-day nut herself, she knew her son wasn't quite right, so did his high school since they gave him extra watch. The kid wasn't right, he did a completely f***ed up thing, there isn't anything to blame but the shooter and anyone who had the ability to say something or do something to stop him and didn't.

What I am NOT blaming:
God
Gun Control
Video Games
Movies
Government


Quote:
How do you deal with death in your family? You seem to have the answers. What do you tell someone? Let's hear your insight. Love to hear it.
Any death in my family has been handled probably just like yours. They die, everyone mourns, life goes on. Telling people something after a tragedy like this, or any death is stupid and waste of your breathe.... what they need is someone to LISTEN TO HOW THEY FEEL! I would simply say, that I will do anything I can to help and am always there if they want to talk about it.
The only thing that could be said to help relieve pain is that if someone was told their son/daughter/father/mother/etc etc died in a heroic manor saving the lives of many others (one of the teacher's from Sandy Hook's story).... she hid the kids, lied about the location, and was shot.... her whole class survived as far as I know. Having her loved ones know that happened in her final minutes might help them.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-18-2012, 2:35 PM Reply   
Who said anyone was going up to tell a parent that their kid was killed for a plan?

Jeremy, The dude just as easily brought pipe bombs, a few chains for the doors and some gasoline, a chain saw, a car through the fence at the playground. Not trying to make light of this tragedy but a determined sick person can do horrible things with very little. There have been many times when children have died in bus accidents in that number or near it. Should be have outlawed buses? Trains? Roads? More people die in automobile accidents than guns in America and most gun deaths are from gang bangers. Thus the comment banning objects. More ignorance on your part I am afraid.

John, The most dangerous places on earth are not the places with weapons. That is a statistical fact. Places with high gun ownership tend to have less crime. Just like places with large amounts of cameras tend to have a little less non sociopath crime. Only correlation I have been able to find as a trend are places where people overwhelmingly vote democrat. Those places have extremely high murder rates and the irony, the most stringent gun control laws. Is it a mental problem with the people of those places that lead themselves to slaughter by banning the very thing that makes them not an easy victim? Who knows. Is it simply socio-economic issues that lead to the crime? Is it culture? Since we are playing the made up cause and effect card, I will just stick with the fact they vote democrat that makes them kill each other.

Ian,

I only brought up blame because it sounds like the blame an object crowd is getting going again and people are sure quick to tell Christians that they don't like the way they deal with tragedy but offer up no other solutions. I just love the ol "I hate the way you deal with things and I am going to tell you about it" approach but have nothing positive to say otherwise. To a Christian, that is the best things you could possible hope for because...well there is nothing else. It is just crap and makes no sense. We are all humans. Just some of us have faith there is something bigger meant for all of us. Maybe you don't then so be it. If I want to have my say in what I don't like, then it is when tragedy happens, then people who have faith in government instead of God start running around blaming objects and lack of more laws is the cause of something instead of understanding human nature and human history. Sometimes, things are just evil. Unexplained evil. It is always there, but many choose to not believe it.

Nick. I think that is the same thing any Christian would do. No one is telling any of these people or anyone that they should just forget about it because it is a plan. Just because God may or may not have a plan to use it for his good after the fact does not mean that the people on the ground understand it either. It is more of a copping mechanism than anything to have the faith that it is. Nothing more, nothing less.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-18-2012, 3:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
It is more of a copping mechanism than anything to have the faith that it is. Nothing more, nothing less.
I agree 100%. I guess that is why when there is talk of a master plan, or this was part of God's plan, etc etc I just laugh it off... it is just people trying to make it okay in their mind (which is fine), but I also think if you can just chalk things up to "God's Master Plan" when do people just start using that as a scapegoat for everything.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-19-2012, 7:32 AM Reply   
Quote:
The original post was a question as to why
No it wasn't.
Quote:
... does it seem just stupid to anyone else to "Pray" to a God that allowed this to happen in the first place?
*Which was a rhetorical question*



Quote:
when people started giving insight you didn’t listen or ponder what they said,
I wasn't asking for people's insight, this was a
Quote:
/rant.
Old    plhorn (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       12-19-2012, 11:45 AM Reply   
The concept of a "loving future seeing God" and the world we live in is incompatible. Either He loves us and can't stop these things from happening in which case He isn't omnipotent or He doesn't give a crap or He doesn't exist. You can't have it both ways, if you believe in God you need to decide if hes not all-powerful or if He's a prick, any other choice is not logical.

Saying that he's given us free will also doesn't jibe with the all-knowing aspect. If a person will grow up to kill a bunch of kids, God knew that before He "gave that person life". So why would He create a life, He knows will be a miserable failure. That's the equivalent of a mechanic building a car with no brakes and selling it to a teenager.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-19-2012, 11:49 AM Reply   
Exactly. BUT PLHORN, HE HAS A GOOD REASON FOR DOING IT. JUST TRUST US, OK?
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-19-2012, 12:47 PM Reply   
The problem here is that concept of love wrt God is not understandable by our limited intelligence. Like if you said I love you to a bear he would still think you are food. Instead of confusing ourselves by using the same word to mean two different things, we should use a new word to refer to God's love. Something like maybe.... Glub. Then we could talk about God's Glub. When people ask what Glub means, we could tell them that human intelligence isn't capable of comprehending it.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-19-2012, 1:12 PM Reply   
Quote:
The problem here is that concept of love wrt God is not understandable by our limited intelligence.
Isn't this just a big cop out though? Just simply saying we cannot now, and never will understand.


The scariest thing about religion to me is that so often God's acts are used to answer questions or events people aren't sure about or just "trust in the bible" because the bible was written by guys like you and me, not by God or Jesus
... What happens when you die?... you go to heaven/hell; how come "I don't know" isn't a good enough answer.

I think when I die it is all over, throw me in the trash, and move on.

Last edited by sidekicknicholas; 12-19-2012 at 1:16 PM.
Old    Akadirtbikingdad (wakeboardingdad)      Join Date: Aug 2008       12-19-2012, 1:39 PM Reply   
It's sad that some of you feel that you are self made, all knowing and in no need of spiritual uplifting. To me, that is the reason we are experiencing what we are now. The absence of God in the heart of men, where man is only governed by what he believes to be righteous is the core of our problems. As we go through generations, the dependency on God and the fear of going to hell, for those misdeeds (even as children) diminishes and man decides what is acceptable behavior. A great example is the financial ruin we are in now. While it may not be against the law to do certain things, like dilute a retirement fund, it is unchristian behavior to do so; to take something away from another. In essence, it is stealing. In that person's mind, it is good business and it was the retirement's fund fault it was so over funded. "Who cares about the "suckers"?"

As for the last few individuals who perpetuated these latest crimes. Crazy or not, perhaps if religion had been instilled in them and they believed they were going to go to hell to pay for their sins, perhaps this would not have occurred. The fact that the most recent two killers committed suicide indicates to me that they were cowards and didn't feel that 100 years in jail would not have been better than an eternity in hell.

I realize this is a no win argument but as a christian and a child of God, I have to post what I think.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-19-2012, 4:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakeboardingdad View Post
It's sad that some of you feel that you are self made, all knowing and in no need of spiritual uplifting. To me, that is the reason we are experiencing what we are now. The absence of God in the heart of men, where man is only governed by what he believes to be righteous is the core of our problems. As we go through generations, the dependency on God and the fear of going to hell, for those misdeeds (even as children) diminishes and man decides what is acceptable behavior. A great example is the financial ruin we are in now. While it may not be against the law to do certain things, like dilute a retirement fund, it is unchristian behavior to do so; to take something away from another. In essence, it is stealing. In that person's mind, it is good business and it was the retirement's fund fault it was so over funded. "Who cares about the "suckers"?"

As for the last few individuals who perpetuated these latest crimes. Crazy or not, perhaps if religion had been instilled in them and they believed they were going to go to hell to pay for their sins, perhaps this would not have occurred. The fact that the most recent two killers committed suicide indicates to me that they were cowards and didn't feel that 100 years in jail would not have been better than an eternity in hell.

I realize this is a no win argument but as a christian and a child of God, I have to post what I think.
Jim Jones and David Koresh had religion instilled in them.
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       12-19-2012, 5:03 PM Reply   
This is NOT directed at anyone on here specifically based on the posts above. This is my own opinion on the matter.

Between the news, Facebook , whatever. I'm tired of people that are of the religious mindset trying to say that these things wouldn't happen if god was part of their life. I don't come from a religious background and I don't care if you choose that path for your life. Whatever makes you happy. Where I draw the line is the insinuatiion that I don't have the same morals about right/wrong/life because I wasn't raised in faith. You are no better then me or vice versa. I don't care what happens to me once I die, or I who I may have to answer too. I am alive today and I answer to myself and have to deal with the consequences of whatever actions or decisions I make. The common message in any religion is to be good to yourself and the people around you. You don't need to be religious to live by that.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-19-2012, 5:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakeboardingdad View Post
As we go through generations, the dependency on God and the fear of going to hell, for those misdeeds (even as children) diminishes and man decides what is acceptable behavior.
So in the final analysis it's Satan, not God who we need to thank for people staying on the right path?
Old    Adam Van Dyke (lfadam)      Join Date: Nov 2008       12-19-2012, 5:32 PM Reply   
wakeboardingdad, just pointing out how the other side feels the exact same (opposite) way...

"It's sad that some of you feel that you are very intelligent people still bound to religion by an old book, a fear of the unknown, and the adult equivalent of Santa Claus. To me, that is the reason we are experiencing what we are now. The presence of God in the heart of men, where man is governed by what society 2,000 years ago believed to be righteous is the core of our problems. As we go through generations, the dependency on God and the fear of going to hell, for those misdeeds (even as children) scares us and decides for us what is acceptable behavior.

...

I realize this is a no win argument but as a person believing in logic/rational thinking and a child of science, I have to post what I think."


Just a tongue in cheek illustration. Carry on
Old    Melissa (psych3060)      Join Date: Sep 2002       12-19-2012, 5:35 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
You guys still don't understand when people say it is God's Will. No one is going up to the family and telling them that it was best God took your daughter or son. No one is not telling them to forget about it and not grieve. Jesus even says to grieve. All people are saying is at the end of the day you hope it is in God's plan and to give it to him. No person can bear that cross especially burying your child but at the end of the day, you have to let it go or you will not function.
Unreal...at the end of the day you have to let it go? No way in hell would I just let it go at the end of the day. I wouldn't except any of those parents, husbands or children of those who lost their lives to just let it go in order to function.

I don't care what anyone needs to do, pray or not to them through something like that. You will never hear one bit of judgement from me about how anyone should or shouldn't do to deal with that but let it all go certainly should not be an option.
Old    Mark Heger (WakeboardChurch)      Join Date: Feb 2012       12-20-2012, 10:54 AM Reply   
First of all, I would like to say that I have been really encouraged by this thread. I really appreciate how respectful and open people have tried to be with their responses and replies. That being said, it seems to me that there are three schools of thought on this thread:
#1 God does not exist and thus prayers, pleadings, and petitioning are simple man-made comforts that help us to collect and organize our thought in a calm manner.
#2 Im not sure if God exists. But if He does and He claims to be all-powerful, and He yet allows bad things like this shooting to happen as a part of "His plan/will", then I want no part of Him, His plan, or praying to Him.
#3 God exists and His understanding, His power, and His plans are far too big for us to wrap our mind around.

I would like to speak to those who find themselves in the #2 spot...those who are searching for the meaning of tragic events and God's role in the midst of evil.
To say "I want no part of God's plan" is a statement that completely relies upon us knowing what God's plan is. God's plan (as defined from the bible) is several fold:
"For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only Son [Jesus], that whoever believes in Him [Jesus] shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." John 3:16-17
"The thief [Satan] comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I [Jesus] have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." John 10:10
"...He [God] is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

Therefore, if we look at what "God's Plan" actually is (as defined by God Himself) it is radically different than many of our interpreted definitions. We often think that God is a dictator who's only plan is (or should be) to control, force obedience of the unbelieving, and protect His loyal followers. But if we look at what God says His Plan is, it is not to control puppets and dictate our movements and our safety...it is simply to save His people, and to give them abundant life. To which I would conclude, that God's Plan for His people has already been accomplished (supported by Jesus' last words on the cross...John 19:30) His plan is to save us...All of us. He desires that NONE of us would go to hell ["perish"]. And this plan was fully motivated out of love (For God so loved the world...). So when someone says, "I want nothing to do with God's plan" what you are saying is a statement regarding your own free will to choose against believing in God's desire to save you. It is like a run-away boy who is far from home saying "I want nothing to do with my parent's authority." ...yeah we know, that's why you ran away...because you didn't want to live under the provision and care of your parents. The statement isn't so much a declaration against his parents, it is more so a window into the boy's true heart of rebellion. The boy doesn't want his parent's help or care or love. He wants to do things his way, despite what his parents might think.
Which leads me into our free will. We are not God's puppets. We are not His science experiment. He will not always intervene when tragic situations arise, because He has given us the ability to create our own tragedies. We are in control of our actions, not God. Does this mean that God doesn't care about our choices? No. He grieves when we grieve, He hurts when we hurt, and He loves when we succeed. Does this mean that He is not all-powerful? No. He is choosing to limit His power in order to allow us free will and the ability to choose to love/follow Him or not. With that in mind, why didn't God kill the shooter before he left his house? The same reason his own parents didn't kill him when he woke up that morning. Because they loved him enough to allow him to make his own poor choices. God loves you enough to allow you to make your own choices, whatever they may be...good or bad. Will He leave you completely to your own devices? No. He will continue to open doors for you with the hope that you might choose to walk through them and take steps closer to Him. He wants to be with you. He does not want you to perish, or suffer, or go to hell. He loves you. And He loves it when we talk to Him through prayer.
Lastly, please know that if any of you would ever like someone to talk to about religion, theology, God, the universe, the Dallas Mavericks, or why great danes are the best dogs...I am always available to talk. Day or night. Free of charge, no Ads, no promotions...just available as a friend and fellow wakeboarder.
Mark
214.938.2102
wakeboardchurch@gmail.com
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-20-2012, 11:31 AM Reply   
That sounds nice, but I find it hard to distinguish God's plan from a tyrant's plan. Both boil down to... "Do what I say or suffer unimaginable horrors". Both want you to do what they say. And given the consequences of not doing so, I see nothing indicative of love. Disobeying a tyrant would never be compared to a boy disobeying his parents, so what are the facts that would allow that analogy wrt God?

Also free will is an illusion. We are not all on equal footing wrt free will. Sure, we do have the opportunity to make choices. But it is the flaws in God's creation that put us on unequal footing wrt the pressures on us that allow us to make the right choice. In cases like this horrible incident there is almost always a flaw in God's creation that is an underlying issue. And that flaw is frequently a form of mental illness.

Long before an individual has the opportunity to affect free choice, he is molded by things beyond his control. So if a loving God is testing anyone or looking to judge who is responsible for this shooting, I would have to conclude that it is society. He would be judging society for letting the weak in mind go down and not helping them. He would be judging society for it's love of guns for recreation, and the proliferation of weapons with no purpose. He would be judging those who fear the govt more than they want to protect each other. He would say you just traded the lives of 20 children, and literally hundreds more every day for your fear of something that has never happened. That being the need to defend yourself with weapons from the govt.

I find it interesting that when someone needs to justify God they engage in the conundrum of explaining what God is in detail and discounting rational arguments by explaining that we cannot know what God is doing when it comes to his plan. A lie will always unravel because it eventually becomes too complicated to sustain. Claiming that the motives of God are above our intellect could simply be the last bastion of sustaining a lie.
Old    Adam Van Dyke (lfadam)      Join Date: Nov 2008       12-20-2012, 12:25 PM Reply   
How can free will exist if God is omniscient? They are at direct odds with each other. If God knows everything, he knows what you are going to do already or what will happen to you, so you don't have free-will at all.

I think Calvin proposed Predestination for this reason
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-20-2012, 2:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only Son [Jesus], that whoever believes in Him [Jesus] shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Lets say this is God's plan.
God is also Jesus, or Jesus is God's son, however you look at it, Jesus knew that himself/his father God was going to send him to death (I just went crosseyed).
Why were Jesus's last words, ""My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" ...... doesn't sound like the words of someone who knew the plan that he himself set; errr, his father set for him.
Old    Justin Harrelson (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       12-20-2012, 2:12 PM Reply   
Prayer helps me in my daily life. I have prayed through grief, stress and even over large transfers. I pray because it works. As for God, I believe because I pray and God is always there. In the end, your relationship with God is personal. From the outside it may seem like a coping mechanism or mental illness, but on the inside it works. All I can do is encourage people to give prayer a shot. If you talk to God and he doesn't answer, just give it up...
Old    Steven Pederson (sppeders)      Join Date: Jul 2011       12-20-2012, 4:24 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidekicknicholas View Post
Lets say this is God's plan.
God is also Jesus, or Jesus is God's son, however you look at it, Jesus knew that himself/his father God was going to send him to death (I just went crosseyed).
Why were Jesus's last words, ""My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" ...... doesn't sound like the words of someone who knew the plan that he himself set; errr, his father set for him.
That is basically how Judaism's view Jesus, Jesus was a profet but not the Messiah/God.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       12-24-2012, 7:15 PM Reply   
This is interesting timing. My older brother just emailed me today to let me know that his latest book, "What Your Atheist Professor Doesn't Know (But Should)" has been released and is available on Amazon for 99 cents. I haven't read it, but I thought some folks that might be interested in further research would be interested in checking it out. If you do read it, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Last edited by wakeworld; 12-24-2012 at 7:18 PM.
Old    Adam Van Dyke (lfadam)      Join Date: Nov 2008       12-25-2012, 8:18 PM Reply   
wakeworld, I am reading the foreword/first chapter now (free preview on Amazon)

Thoughts so far:
-Already referencing/supporting Pascal's wager, which I believe sounds good, but is a flawed way of thinking.
-The author is stating that Borel's theory of the threshold of mathematical probability will be important in many chapters. This is the idea that anything with odds worse than 1 in 10^50 is mathematically impossible. I do not pretend to know how Borel calculated this number, but I do know that when talking about the existence of God or a Big Bang type idea, odds go out the window, because either one of these trains of thoughts involve impossibly slim odds, but yet cannot be ignored because when talking about an infinite amount of time, any odds can/will happen in enough time.
-Although possibly tongue in cheek, he states that Atheists die 8 years earlier than Christians on average, which is another reason to believe/consider God. Correlation=/=Causation.

These 3 things in the first 5 minutes are making me a little skeptical of his arguments to come, but let's see what else the first chapter has in store.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-25-2012, 8:20 PM Reply   
Uh oh, anything relying on Pascal's Wager as anything other than an example of horribly flawed reasoning is off to a shaky start...

Last edited by pesos; 12-25-2012 at 8:23 PM.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-25-2012, 8:25 PM Reply   
"-The author is stating that Borel's theory of the threshold of mathematical probability will be important in many chapters. This is the idea that anything with odds worse than 1 in 10^50 is mathematically impossible. I do not pretend to know how Borel calculated this number, but I do know that when talking about the existence of God or a Big Bang type idea, odds go out the window, because either one of these trains of thoughts involve impossibly slim odds, but yet cannot be ignored because when talking about an infinite amount of time, any odds can/will happen in enough time."

A counterexample with respect to Creationism and Borel's Theory has already been presented several years ago. One is all it takes in mathematics.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-26-2012, 8:02 AM Reply   
More on Borel's law:

"The probability of an event with odds of 1 in 10^50 is 10^−50. Small, yes. Negligible, yes — but not zero. You can observe such events happening to you every night. Although the probability of a photon emitted in the Andromeda Galaxy, 2.6 million light years from Earth, reaching your eye is only 8.1 10^−51, the galaxy is clearly visible in the night sky. If you roll a fair ten-sided die 51 times, the probability of rolling this particular sequence is 10^−51. These observations are impossible according to the proponents of universal application of Borel's law"
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-26-2012, 8:28 AM Reply   
Yes we all know the universe is mathematically impossible. So the only explanation is that it must have been created by something that's impossible without even using math. I love it when people claim to be so brilliant that they know what cannot have happened. And then claim that it must have been made by something that cannot even have an explanation for its existence. Apparently.... What your preacher doesn't know (but should).
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-26-2012, 9:08 AM Reply   
Jeremy, I highly doubt the math you are attributing to a photon making it to your eye from a constant source is suspect. You have something that is on 100% of the time and also is seen clearly in the night sky? That means the probability is I would say 100%.
Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-26-2012, 9:12 AM Reply   
Cool to think that everything that has,or ever will be, was a random accident leading to a completely meaningless existence. With people desperately trying to find meaning by hanging on the words of hate filled warriors like Richard Dawkins.Could life get any cooler than that??
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-26-2012, 9:27 AM Reply   
How does God give existence meaning? Reality is reality. Being cool isn't relevant. Do you really think that God gives your existence meaning? Or is it that you can't have a meaningful life unless its eternal? Something tells me that the eternal perpetuation of your consciousness is far more important to you than God. You just need the God premise to instill confidence that your consciousness won't be in a state of eternal suffering.

BTW, what is this "accident" that you refer to? Didn't something unintended happen? The bottom line is that the universe does exist; so the idea that its impossible has been disproved before it was even thought up.

Reply
Share 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:08 AM.

Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
Wake World Home

 

© 2012 eWake, Inc.    
Advertise    |    Contact    |    Terms of Use    |    Privacy Policy    |    Report Abuse    |    Conduct    |    About Us