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Old    Phatboypimp (phatboypimp)      Join Date: Apr 2005       12-05-2012, 11:26 AM Reply   
PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A HATE THREAD ABOUT POLITICS - we have other threads for that.

If you could simply choose ONE action the Government could take that would have the largest impact on the Fiscal Cliff - What would it be?
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-05-2012, 11:48 AM Reply   
Go back in time to 2000 Florida and have them recount the votes in favor of Gore. We wouldn't have had the Bush tax cuts, the Medicare prescription plan, or the war in Iraq. Or go back in time to late 70's Carter and implement the stricter fuel standards for cars that he was espousing.
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-05-2012, 12:02 PM Reply   
One action? We need a big impact. I'd say repeal the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts that affect the top 1 to 2% of earners.

Can I add more? Have capital gains and interest be included as regular income as far as getting taxed.

Next, defense spending has got to come down.

I'd love to see a change in how entitlement spending is done and clean that up, but that's sort of a whole other discussion.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       12-05-2012, 12:11 PM Reply   
Go back in time and take a photo of obama being born in Kenya. LOL.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       12-05-2012, 12:15 PM Reply   
I sorta wonder why we shouldn't just step off of the fiscal curb. Taxes go up and spending goes down. Automatically. Isn't austerity what we want?

The argument I've heard for taxes first and spending cuts later is that when tax *rates* go up they don't cause an immediate economic shock (we won't be paying our 2013 taxes till April 2014), but that spending cuts are immediate. So increase taxes now, let the economy limp along (hopefully continuing to recover) then cut spending as economic growth stabilizes.
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       12-05-2012, 12:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Go back in time to 2000 Florida and have them recount the votes in favor of Gore. We wouldn't have had the Bush tax cuts, the Medicare prescription plan, or the war in Iraq. Or go back in time to late 70's Carter and implement the stricter fuel standards for cars that he was espousing.
Making a lot of assumptions about what Gore would/would not have done there, slick.
Old    Terry Redfearn (TerryR)      Join Date: Aug 2010       12-05-2012, 1:06 PM Reply   
If i understand this right. 1.6 trillion in new taxes, 800 billion in new spending and congress gives up the right to set the debt limit.

on top of last years $1+ trillion additional debt.

Is everyone OK with this? Doesn't the debt/spending become unsustainable at some point?
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       12-05-2012, 1:39 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryR View Post
If i understand this right. 1.6 trillion in new taxes, 800 billion in new spending and congress gives up the right to set the debt limit.

on top of last years $1+ trillion additional debt.

Is everyone OK with this? Doesn't the debt/spending become unsustainable at some point?
No

- Obama Sackriders
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       12-05-2012, 1:52 PM Reply   
can we at least agree that the payroll tax cut (a temporary stimulus measure) should be allowed to expire?
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       12-05-2012, 2:06 PM Reply   
Quote:
The argument I've heard for taxes first and spending cuts later is that when tax *rates* go up they don't cause an immediate economic shock (we won't be paying our 2013 taxes till April 2014),
It does have an immediate effect as the withholding will increase so the net pay will decrease but I agree we should let them expire and maybe remove the cap on social security tax at the same time (note: the social security withholding only got reduced for the employee but not for the employer portion - so businesses will not be affected by this change)

I don't think I'm making too many friends today on wakeworld by saying we should raise taxes
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       12-05-2012, 2:13 PM Reply   
The best thing that could happen is for it to completely collapse. It would be catastrophic, but really the best scenario for long-term success. Deficit spending cannot go on into infinity. We are so polarized that any effort to clean up the economy will be shot down by the other side simply because it was initiated by the opposition. This will not change until the entire thing fails. We all need one another, and each side's priorities are valuable to the other. We will not be brought together as centrists until libs are reminded where they get their food from, and cons are reminded where they get their sweaters. Alone, we will all starve or freeze. Until it actually fails, we will all continue to act as if it can't fail and act as if we don't need each other.
Old    Simon (SimonSez)      Join Date: Nov 2012       12-05-2012, 2:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_ssr View Post
The best thing that could happen is for it to completely collapse. It would be catastrophic, but really the best scenario for long-term success. Deficit spending cannot go on into infinity. We are so polarized that any effort to clean up the economy will be shot down by the other side simply because it was initiated by the opposition. This will not change until the entire thing fails. We all need one another, and each side's priorities are valuable to the other. We will not be brought together as centrists until libs are reminded where they get their food from, and cons are reminded where they get their sweaters. Alone, we will all starve or freeze. Until it actually fails, we will all continue to act as if it can't fail and act as if we don't need each other.
Well said, social Darwinism at its finest. Machiavelli would be proud, let the market correct itself!
Old    Terry Redfearn (TerryR)      Join Date: Aug 2010       12-05-2012, 4:24 PM Reply   
It seems to me the real fiscal cliff is the point where we can't recover from the debt. This cliff only means about $200 a month for me. Even as a retired guy I can manage. but, the experts are predicting recession and 9% employment. for those of you who know more about this than me, are those numbers real?
Old    Phatboypimp (phatboypimp)      Join Date: Apr 2005       12-06-2012, 9:04 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryR View Post
It seems to me the real fiscal cliff is the point where we can't recover from the debt. This cliff only means about $200 a month for me. Even as a retired guy I can manage. but, the experts are predicting recession and 9% employment. for those of you who know more about this than me, are those numbers real?
Those are the same numbers I have seen - you pull that much money out of the economy and you will see an impact.

I am just frustrated by the ineptitude of our voted officials. These FAT CATS roll around in private planes, limos with uncontrolled/unsupervised budgets and then can't even get to a resolution about the most simple items.

I think that Warren Buffet had the best idea - we should pass a law that says anytime there is a deficit above 3% of GDP that all sitting members of congress can not be reelected. They will get to a solution.

I also don't understand how the government can continually tax the top wage earners. The top 10% of wage earners pay 71% of federal income tax but only generate 43% of all income. Talk about progressive.
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       12-06-2012, 9:32 AM Reply   
I dont think this will be the biggest but IMO by far the most impactful!
All of the Inmates in State and Federal Prisons will be required to work a 40 hour week in some sort of manufacturing position in the Facilities they are housed in. Corporations that haved moved their manufacturing outside the USA will have a chance to bid on cheap labor ( Inmates) here in the US. Thus reducing overhead, overseas shipping costs and the like. Have them makes Nike's shoes, Hurley shorts or whatever but put them to work and give them something to do with their days in prison. Prisons can charge the company similar or cheaper rates than overseas and have all the profit go back to pay for the cost of running the prisons ( now being paid by us taxpaers).

My other plan is also put anyone that is on welfare to work and have them be drug tested before they get each check. Again us Taxpayers are footing the bill here and like the plan above we can have these leeches that are able bodied and that are on welfare actually earn the money instead of sitting back doing nothing and collecting a check. If your physically unable to work then we will put you on an admin job answering phones or cold calling people when you can do it lying on your back if need be! Now Im not talking about any of the physically or mentally handicapped that are on some sort of assistance, im talking about the men and women out there collecting unemployment and welfare and living in free govt housing becasue they canearn more from welfare than they can from a job.
I hate freeloaders, and those who enable them!!!!!

Last edited by three6ty; 12-06-2012 at 9:34 AM. Reason: spl
Old    RileyBangerter (steezyshots)      Join Date: Feb 2008       12-06-2012, 9:44 AM Reply   
Why avoid it? Let;'s burn this MFer down!
Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-06-2012, 9:44 AM Reply   
remove pelosi,reed and obama
Old    RileyBangerter (steezyshots)      Join Date: Feb 2008       12-06-2012, 10:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ord27 View Post
remove pelosi,reed and obama
Agreed!
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       12-06-2012, 10:16 AM Reply   
We will never turn anything around in this country if Crap like this is keeps being funded by taxpayers:

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/capito...#axzz2E8sXEKDW

I was in downtown San Diego on Tuesday and saw 3 homeless men pushing 2 pushing shopping carts and one pushing a worn down bike in 3 different parts of downtown, and each one were taking on cell phones!!!!! I actually laughed out loud when I saw this!!
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-06-2012, 10:59 AM Reply   
Perhaps the government should only spend what it takes in.

If they want/need to spend more than raise taxes for the short term or long term or don't spend it.
Old    Scott (magicr)      Join Date: May 2004       12-06-2012, 11:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Perhaps the government should only spend what it takes in.

If they want/need to spend more than raise taxes for the short term or long term or don't spend it.

Maybe George Bush should have taken that advice, rather than have two unfunded wars, two large tax breaks, and unfunded medicare prescription drug plan.

Last edited by magicr; 12-06-2012 at 11:16 AM. Reason: *
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       12-06-2012, 11:20 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey_butt View Post
It does have an immediate effect as the withholding will increase so the net pay will decrease but I agree we should let them expire and maybe remove the cap on social security tax at the same time (note: the social security withholding only got reduced for the employee but not for the employer portion - so businesses will not be affected by this change)

I don't think I'm making too many friends today on wakeworld by saying we should raise taxes
We dont have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem.

Just like at home with personal finances. If you cant manage your money at home - the solution is not a raise. the problem will simply follow. the solution is getting your spending in check.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       12-06-2012, 11:26 AM Reply   
of course there's pretty good evidence that if we cut spending too much too fast, we also shoot ourselves in the foot by causing a recession, which in turn causes a drop in revenues, which in turn could make the deficit bigger.

As much as the kitchen table finance model is attractive, it's also ignorant to assume that what works at home translates to the government of the world's largest economy.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-06-2012, 12:00 PM Reply   
I call BS otherwise that argument would apply to the states who are not allowed to deficit spend (thank god!).

Can you imagine the mess we would be in if the states were able to form a massive debt and print money?

The federal government should be small and mostly about the military (protecting the USA). We are only in a dire situation such that we can not cut enough because we were allowed to spend too much year over year. If we lived within out means every year, then we would not be in this mess.

Besides, why not have the rule be that you spend next year what you took in last year and any more has to be voted in seperately item by item? This way, the idiot spenders of our children's money would have to own what they are doing every year.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       12-06-2012, 12:52 PM Reply   
Well, DD, it sounds like going over the fiscal cliff is a good idea then, yes? Cut spending and increase revenues to close the gap.
Old    Terry Redfearn (TerryR)      Join Date: Aug 2010       12-06-2012, 12:56 PM Reply   
The proposed tax the rich plan only gerates $80 billion. We need a lot more than that to balance the budget.

Giving the President the ability to set the spending limit is ridiculous
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-06-2012, 1:34 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ord27 View Post
remove pelosi,reed and obama
But keep McConnell, Boehner, and Ryan who should be just as much to blame? Gotcha
Old    Ifishok™ (ifishok)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-06-2012, 1:58 PM Reply   
Cancel Obama's vacation coming up this Christmas, it will cost American taxpayers over $4 million dollars. That's where I would start and work my way down though the Senate and House. Some people may say he deserves a vacation, but with all that's going on in the world, I think he needs to get to work and be a President.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       12-06-2012, 2:24 PM Reply   
%20 spending cut on all government programs across the board.

We do have a spending problem. We do have a revenue problem but the spending is kiling us. Raising taxes on everyone will temporarily spike the gov coughers, showing an increase of short term revenue. Long term revenue will decrease. If I have less money in my pocket, I will spend less money at your job on your products, which means your boss will have less money, which means he will pay you less money, then you will have less money, you will spend less money at my job buying my products, which will give me less money... and on and on...
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       12-06-2012, 2:46 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_defacto View Post
%20 spending cut on all government programs across the board.

We do have a spending problem. We do have a revenue problem but the spending is kiling us. Raising taxes on everyone will temporarily spike the gov coughers, showing an increase of short term revenue. Long term revenue will decrease. If I have less money in my pocket, I will spend less money at your job on your products, which means your boss will have less money, which means he will pay you less money, then you will have less money, you will spend less money at my job buying my products, which will give me less money... and on and on...
A 20% across the board spending cut would cripple the economy.

Some very worthwhile reading on the issue of fiscal consolidation and its impacts on the economy here:

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2012/wp12190.pdf
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       12-06-2012, 4:51 PM Reply   
I guess some prisons are already doing it .

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...for-nasa?lite=
Old    Jason Callen (westsidarider)      Join Date: Feb 2003       12-06-2012, 8:18 PM Reply   
I agree with the complete crash of everything. Matter of fact, it's coming. The human race has pushed things too far. There is no saving anything. There is no turning America around. Debating politics is useless. Evil has taken over and greed runs ramped amongst everyone. My only suggestion to the people is to make your peace with your maker. Our days are numbered
Old    Erik Jernberg (juniorhawk)      Join Date: Jul 2004       12-07-2012, 5:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsidarider View Post
I agree with the complete crash of everything. Matter of fact, it's coming. The human race has pushed things too far. There is no saving anything. There is no turning America around. Debating politics is useless. Evil has taken over and greed runs ramped amongst everyone. My only suggestion to the people is to make your peace with your maker. Our days are numbered
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       12-07-2012, 11:57 AM Reply   
http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?p...7-4a369489044a
Old    Kevin Denbroeder (stepintoliquid)      Join Date: Sep 2005       12-07-2012, 1:10 PM Reply   
Jason, you took this thread to the next level!!!
Old    Terry Redfearn (TerryR)      Join Date: Aug 2010       12-07-2012, 3:37 PM Reply   
Thanks Paul for sharing. It doesn't seem that extreme, considering the savings are about 70% of the yearly deficit.

The fiscal cliff sounds like a good start.

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