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Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       11-06-2012, 7:14 AM Reply   
Through studies of carbon isotope ratios (similar to the methodology used in carbon dating, except with the stable isotopes C-12 and C-13), it has been shown that the carbon found in diamonds comes from both inorganic and organic sources. Some diamonds, known as harzburgitic, are formed from inorganic carbon originally found deep in the Earth's mantle. In contrast, eclogitic diamonds contain organic carbon from organic detritus that has been pushed down from the surface of the Earth's crust through subduction (see plate tectonics) before transforming into diamond. These two different source of carbon have measurably different 13C:12C ratios. Diamonds that have come to the Earth's surface are generally quite old, ranging from under 1 billion to 3.3 billion years old. This is 22% to 73% of the age of the Earth

Wiki.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       11-06-2012, 12:38 PM Reply   
^That's science crap, was does that have to do with anything?

I'm so cool, I think the Earth is flat. So there.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-06-2012, 2:16 PM Reply   
yep that's the clip from the original post...
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-06-2012, 2:43 PM Reply   
Oh geeze, I never even saw it because the link didn't work for me when I 1st looked at this thread and I never bothered to go back to it once this thread took off in a different direction - deleted.

Last edited by brettw; 11-06-2012 at 2:45 PM. Reason: redundant post
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       11-06-2012, 4:28 PM Reply   
I believe you should not "listen" to anyone who says the earth is 10,000 years old, scientist are seeking the"truth" with the best available tools to do it, not by listening to some preacher with a worthless certificate! There is no scientist that uses carbon dating to date diamonds or dinasor fossils, they use other reliable methods
http://www.holysmoke.org/cre018.htm
There is no arguing with young earth creationists. They are immune to logic and evidence.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-06-2012, 5:54 PM Reply   
WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—With only one day until the election, the Republican Party today released its official closing argument to the American people.

In its entirety, the argument read as follows: “We’re strongly opposed to FEMA and health care, but basically O.K. with rape.”


Reince Priebus, the chairman of the Republican National Committee, said that the Party’s message of “zero tolerance toward disaster relief combined with a more easygoing attitude about rape” would lead the Party to victory on Election Day.

“Our argument couldn’t be simpler: when God wants to create a hurricane or make a woman pregnant, big government should get out of the way,” he said.

The Party chairman said that the closing argument was part of its “expand the map” strategy: “We’re contesting every state, from Pennsylvania to Colorado to Iowa, where we believe there are voters who are in sync with our more advanced view of hurricanes and rape.”

Mr. Priebus also had this message for the American voter: “Your vote is important. We’ve spent billions trying to buy it.”
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-06-2012, 6:16 PM Reply   
No Jo, you are completely missing the point.

You are wrong when saying "no scientist that uses carbon dating to date diamonds or dinosaurs..." I don't think you meant that literally because you do not know every scientist and their experiment, but your statement is somewhat true in that scientists understand that c14 dating has carbon zero readings past 70-80k years. So there is no reason for a scientist to carbon date a diamond or dinosaur fossil because they are so old you would get carbon zero readings.

However, if you can get a scientist with the really expensive AMS machine to test a diamond or dinosaur fossil, and it has been done and document over and over again, you will get c14 readings in both that show an age less than 60k years.

The way they get the dates of diamonds, coal, and fossils is first, to start with the hypothesis that the earth HAS to be old in order for evolution to be true; then use methods to test the age of things but IGNORE the most accurate method (carbon dating, although carbon dating is not very accurate, just a whole lot more accurate than any other dating method) when the results do not match the expected outcome. Then, begin dating rocks that are found on and around, in the same sediment layer as fossils, by multiple methods that can not be described as "accurate" or "reliable", continually ignoring the facts and evidence of ridiculously younger age of dinosaur bones, diamonds, and coal.

you will find that a lot of scientists, both evolution and creationists, start with a belief or hypothesis and then use their findings to prove their belief or hypothesis.

I think there can be a huge argument that young earth creationists are immune to logic and evidence. A young earther believes in approx 6-10k year old earth, man and animals the same age. Right now the evidence in just fossils, coal and diamonds alone, definitely show that young earthers are closer to the actual age than evolutionist. Evolutionists say diamonds 3.3 billion years old, diamonds are tested to be 50k years old, that is a 3.2+ billion year scientific error. A young earther will say a diamond is around 10k years old, tested to 50k years old, that is a 40k year scientific error. Logic and evidence is on the side of young earthers.

Also, carbon dating makes a few assumptions that cannot and may never be confirmed or rejected, so a slight error in these assumptions can cause an disproportionate result, easily making fossils, diamonds, coal...etc a lot closer to 10k years old, or a lot closer to a couple hundred thousand years old.... but not 320 million years old.

Another thing, carbon dating is calibrated by multiple methods. Using other dating methods for rocks and other samples in the sediment layer as well as tree rings counting. Tree ring counting is an interesting little "science" that is completely unreliable, but do you know how tree ring results are calibrated and verified?

You may have guessed it.... carbon dating. Interesting this circular calibration/reasoning is so heavily relied on by the scientific community.

Last edited by johnny_defacto; 11-06-2012 at 6:19 PM.
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       11-06-2012, 6:46 PM Reply   
"The way they get the dates of diamonds, coal, and fossils is first, to start with the hypothesis that the earth HAS to be old in order for evolution to be true"
or maybe it HAS to be old because the tectonic plates have taken millions and millions of years to break apart from their original continent! or do you not believe in continental drift either?
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-06-2012, 9:40 PM Reply   
Maybe it is because of that as well. I am just trying to equate a huge flaw in the science community, whether creation old earth, creation new earth, or evolution old earth.. they all start with their own preconceived notions of what the results should be, and that's not right. You seem to think it is only creationists that do this, but it is not, and I am only using a few examples of some of sciences prized possession (c-14 dating) to show it.

Last edited by johnny_defacto; 11-06-2012 at 9:40 PM. Reason: added= "using"
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-07-2012, 12:33 AM Reply   
Scientists like the ones backing the ROMNEY MEGA PRAYERRRRRRRR
http://romneymegaprayer.com/
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-07-2012, 6:52 AM Reply   
Does anybody else NOT think Trump is a complete idiot?

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/t...-election.html
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-07-2012, 7:13 AM Reply   
Grant and Flight?
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-07-2012, 8:24 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_defacto View Post
Maybe it is because of that as well. I am just trying to equate a huge flaw in the science community, whether creation old earth, creation new earth, or evolution old earth.. they all start with their own preconceived notions of what the results should be, and that's not right. You seem to think it is only creationists that do...
But it is right. You start with a hypothesis and devise tests. If the test validates the hypothesis it's because the results matched the preconceived "notions". The difference is that creationists have no means of devising a test to validate their preconceived notions.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-07-2012, 9:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
But it is right. You start with a hypothesis and devise tests. If the test validates the hypothesis it's because the results matched the preconceived "notions". The difference is that creationists have no means of devising a test to validate their preconceived notions.
You are right, I reread it and left out a section, it should have been as follows: " they tend to take their preconceived notions of what the results should be, and ignore the results that harm their hypothesis.. and that's not right". Example being the dating of fossils, diamonds, coal...etc. Evolutionist explain away these results and call it "junk science" and try to ignore these facts because they do not match their narrative. Young Earth Creationists ignore and explain away the fact that if the earth and universe is only 6-10k years old, why can we see all these stars whose light takes millions of light years to reach our earth?

Those are just 2 examples from both arguments to prove my point.

Thanks for the correction though, I appreciate it.

I disagree with your statement that creationists have no means of devising a test to validate their notions. Which ones are you referring to because some of them can be validated? The fossil record, and the samples taken that are ever growing, seems to show a sudden appearance of our current species and extinct species. That is science at its core (observation of the world around us) and validates the creationists preconceived notion of Intelligent design and creation. Neither creation science or evolution science can prove all their theories, but they can take the evidence and make arguments based on these observations.

Obviously I believe in God and believe He created the universe and you and me. I do not hide from science, the facts, or truth, I gravitate towards it because science and God are not mutually exclusive. Many creationists have been told all their life that evolution is fact, old earth is fact, science goes against everything the Bible says about our world. I am one of those christians/creationists. So when statements like "science says" or "science proves" are thrown in our face, we tend to turn away because we have been taught about the mutual exclusiveness of God and science all our lives. Only recently (4 years or so) have I really started doing my own research in science. Most christians do not do this as we take up some of our free time studying the Bible and Jesus, and how to be more like Him and to be a better person. Science is not a huge deal to a lot of us because we are not searching for answers of where we came from and our purpose, we already believe God made us and has a purpose for us. I, on the other hand, really enjoy science and look at our entire world, rocks, plants, animals and humans, and find it amazing and incredible and enjoy learning more about our world. As more christians open their eyes to the answers in science, the dialog will be opened and evolutionists will be even more challenged then they already are.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-07-2012, 10:36 AM Reply   
Johnny, there is a lot of supposition in your post. If there is ample evidence of a better way to date fossils then you can darn well know that some scientists will research it. The holy grail of scientists is to be able to prove something previously unproven. You are right that a scientist has motives to ignore things that disagree with their hypothesis. But other scientists have the motive to shoot down something they believe is wrong, especially when they have an idea of what is right.

Unfortunately for creationists they all have the same motive. And that is to adopt anything that supports creation. If a legitimate scientist ever had a hypothesis that could be both tested and shown to prove evolution wrong then they would be all over it.

Not sure what you mean by the sudden appearance of species. But before life developed shells or bones the existence of a fossil record is pretty limited.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-07-2012, 1:14 PM Reply   
Not sure what that last sentence means, I will try to answer if you clarify it for me.

What I am saying is there already is a great way to date fossils in carbon dating, not exact, but the best we have. Sure, science will get better, equipment better, new methods will be developed, but for now we have carbon dating that can be used to date fossils, is being used by some to date fossils, but the results are being ignored or thrown out as bad science by some in the community. Using a million dollar AMS to date an alleged 30+ million year old fossil is "foolish" to evolutionists because carbon dating is incapable of dating over 80,000 years, and dinosaurs are obviously older than 80,000 years. It is insanity. Carbon dating methods are highly praised, but when the results do not match the hypothesis or narrative, they ignore the results.

"Unfortunately for creationists they all have the same motive."
This is not true as I am a creationist and my motive, as previously stated, is to find the truth, wherever that leads. But in general, you are correct, most creationists motive is to prove the bible with science. Most evolutionists motive is to prove evolution as the origin of life, therefore disproving that God created man and animals the way the Bible says.

You write this:
"If a legitimate scientist ever had a hypothesis that could be both tested and shown to prove evolution wrong then they would be all over it."

I will offer you this as well:
"If a legitimate scientist ever had a hypothesis that could be both tested and shown to prove evolution right then they would be all over it."

Evolution is a theory, but has yet to be proven with really very little evidence.

Creation is a theory, but has yet to be proven with really very little evidence. However, the huge amounts of fossils and observations made in the science community over the past hundred years lean towards a sudden appearance of life, animals, and humans.

I love this one, it is a simple analogy but I feel it is powerful:

You, John, walk into your house after work on monday night excited about watching my Giants destroy the Redskins with a friend from work and there on the dinner table is a steaming hot 14 oz prime rib, garlic mashed potatoes, asparagus, a tall glass of ice-cold IPA. Nobody is in your house, your family is out of town at the in-laws for the past week.

You have no idea how that is even possible. Your buddy asks, "this is amazing, who made this for you?" you respond, "I don't know, but I know it just happened all by itself by accident."

Your friend is a creationist, you are an evolutionist. Your friend is scientifically honest, you are not.

Last edited by johnny_defacto; 11-07-2012 at 1:18 PM. Reason: added quotations
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-07-2012, 1:40 PM Reply   
"If a legitimate scientist ever had a hypothesis that could be both tested and shown to prove evolution right then they would be all over it."

There is evidence and they are all over it.

You have no idea how that is even possible. Your buddy asks, "this is amazing, who made this for you?" you respond, "I don't know, but I know it just happened all by itself by accident."

No, I would respond that somebody made it but isn't letting on. Magic is never an acceptable answer. Which I'm guessing what my friend the creationist believes. I know creationists don't like God described as magic, but there is no different between God and magic. They both defy the laws of nature as known by man, and neither can be tested. When primitives natives, that have never seen modern technology, see a plane fly overhead, some probably saw it's the Gods and some probably said "I don't know but I'd like to figure it out". The former is the creationist and the latter is the evolutionist. The evolutionist doesn't have all the answers, but he knows it's not magic.

BTW, you can always believe that God created the laws of nature specifically to achieve the ends as we now observe with evolution. It's just that creationists are dead set on only believing that the Bible is literally true despite that they don't believe everything in the Bible should be taken to heart. Ever see a Christian eating shellfish? There is no evidence that God uses magic to achieve his goals. But many religious people don't feel confident that God can achieve those goals without subverting the laws of nature.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       11-07-2012, 2:03 PM Reply   
"Most evolutionists motive is to prove evolution as the origin of life, therefore disproving that God created man and animals the way the Bible says."

This kind of discredits your "expertise" in the area. Evolutionists are not trying to "disprove God created man and animals the way the Bible says", they are simply attempting to figure out how things evolve. I am going out on a limb and say that any religion plays no part in any part of their work.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-07-2012, 3:24 PM Reply   
Jeremy, I am not an expert and never claimed to be. I am just looking for answers, wherever they lead. It is interesting when you say that scientists are attempting to figure out how things evolve. That is true, they believe everything evolved from nothing, so they are trying to prove how things evolved, but have yet to prove that things evolved. It is also interesting, and good to hear, that John acknowledges that it is possible to believe God is the creator of laws of nature and evolution is how he created us, that is rarely stated in the evolution community. The general belief in the evolution community is there is no God, or Higher Power, or intelligent design. It may be true that God created the earth as we know it over billions of our years, and evolved humans over millions of our years (as He is not subservient to "time" as we know it). However, that is still a theory, same as creation is a theory, and has very little evidence to support that claim. Some people look at religion negatively and will describe it as a belief in something that requires faith with little to no evidence. That may not be your definition, but I see that used often. I would offer that evolution of human life from non-life is a type of "religion" because you are believing in something that requires faith with little to no evidence.

"There is no evidence that God uses magic to achieve his goals. But many religious people don't feel confident that God can achieve those goals without subverting the laws of nature." I completely agree with you on this. It is not okay to change the rules to make evidence fit your theories. I appreciate that you said "many" when referring to religious people and not "all" as I am not one of those, neither are many many of my friends and church community. Also, please do not neglect that some/many evolutionists will do the similar things to explain the unexplainable when relating the evidence to the theory of evolution.

So John, you would say that someone made that dinner for you? Okay, good, and so would everybody else in the entire world, I would imagine.

So who made the universe, the earth, the laws of science, and life?

As for "magic", the only magic is the faith and belief that nothing collided with nothing in a space that came from nothing, that had no laws or rules or programming, exploding in incredible chaos, resulting in a completely organized universe, including our star and planet, in perfect harmony where billions of years of un-programmed or designed evolution of nothing into human beings who love, laugh, think, create... using a brain that we have very little understanding of, that controls incredibly complicated organs and systems, such as the human eye, that we today can not compete with or replicate, that live in a world of set laws that work in complete harmony.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-07-2012, 3:50 PM Reply   
So who made the universe, the earth, the laws of science, and life?

The origins of such things are a mystery. But if you can except God as always being with no beginning or end then it shouldn't be that difficult to accept the Universe with the same conditions. At least we all agree that the Universe exists.

As for "magic", the only magic is the faith and belief that nothing collided with nothing in a space that came from nothing...

See, that's where you are wrong. There is no magic involved, just questions. When you believe in magic then you believe you've already got the answer.
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       11-07-2012, 5:49 PM Reply   
It is He who changes the times and the epochs;
He removes kings and establishes kings;
He gives wisdom to wise men
And knowledge to men of understanding.

Wes, many christians have good intentions but there plans may not be what Gods plans are for certain events, times or seasons. Mitt Romney is a Mormon not a Christian. His beliefs to not align with my own nor do they align with scripture. I was willing to vote for Romney because of 3 things Biblically and his past experience as successful business leader.

1. He says he is against abortion
2. He says he will side with Israel no matter what
3. He is for traditional marriage between a man and a women

Although Romney won the popular vote, America voted for abortion rights, homosexual rights and for a President who showed much disdain for the leader of our most important ally in the middle east. Although you have taken the opportunity to mock God on these threads on many occasions, he still loves you. While you laugh and make fun of his people, he loves you as much as he loves me. The one thing that concerns me the most, is the repercussions of the defiance we are now seeing toward God and righteousness. Although i strongly disagree with Obamas fiscal policies, it's his moral compass that is going to be our demise. Do you think God doesn't see the 54 million dead babies since row V wade? Do you think God doesn't see people celebrating coming out of the closet instead of cleaning it? Gods word says he will bless a nation who blesses Israel and curse the nation who comes against it. America has been a blessed nation indeed. Do you think it is any coincidence that we started out with a Biblical foundation? It's Righteousness that exalts a nation. When we move away from God and elect a party that celebrates sinful behavior we are going to come under Gods wrath. Not because God is some mean being that just wants to punish people. It's because he is righteous and holy and sin is not found in him. Jesus stands in the gap and screams I made a way for you to be set free.......it's not about religion, its not about politics, it's about a relationship with a God who knew you before you were born. He loved you so much he became one of us and purposely became sin for the very people who spit on him, shake their fists in his face, and vehemently mock his very nature. Many who read this will get angry, some will even continue to mock. But God is calling you right now to believe on his son and step from darkness to light. One day we will all stand before God and give an account of what we did with his son. On that day I will be happy to report that I accepted him as my Lord and savior and he will look on me and with a smile say....well done thou good and faithful servant....enter into paradise. As for the rest of you, I can only speak the truth of his word, it is up to you to either believe it or reject it. Either Jesus was a liar and so were his disciples who all gave their lives for a lie, or he was truly the son of God and raised from the dead just like his word says. Believe me when I say to the person who is reading these words, God has set you a part from birth to be more than you ever dreamed. You were made for a purpose for such a time as this. No matter what you've done, or how far you feel you have missed the mark, Jesus is calling you home. Ask him into your heart right now and let him create in you a new person with a new slate. I have no agenda other than saving your soul from a place that is so diabolical and disgustingly despicable that if you ended up there you would despise me for eternity for not telling you the truth........It doesn't matter to me that a 1000 people laugh or make fun of me for the words you are now reading if just 1 came to christ and was snatched from the hands of satan.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       11-07-2012, 5:54 PM Reply   
"Although Romney won the popular vote"

Where the hell do you guys get the numbers to keep saying that Romney won the popular vote? The numbers I just looked at show Obama leading with FL still trying to get sorted out.
Old    Akadirtbikingdad (wakeboardingdad)      Join Date: Aug 2008       11-07-2012, 6:29 PM Reply   
God bless you Flight for those words.
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-07-2012, 6:40 PM Reply   
Flight, are you spewing all that b.s. for yourself or Wes and others? For those of those who don't believe in YOUR god, you know very well what you're saying is mostly going to sound like little more than a bunch of b.s.. I think you're just trying to make yourself feel better. You'd make a great preacher or pastor, though, if you're not already. You mine as well spew that stuff to people that believe in your particular god.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-07-2012, 6:57 PM Reply   
It's ok, some day Flight will take the Flying Spaghetti Monster into his heart (or at least I hope so for his sake). Oh wait, he's too busy trying to bang chicks. And Romney lost the popular vote by a healthy margin.

One thing that was made clear across the nation last night was that the ultra conservative/tea party crazies were soundly rejected. All 4 states with gay marriage bills in front of them went for gay marriage, weed was legalized in two states, the first openly gay senator was voted in, and the rape brothers Akin and Mourdock were shot down.
Old    Scott (magicr)      Join Date: May 2004       11-07-2012, 6:58 PM Reply   
If the Republicans follow the path that Flight espouses they will soon cease to be a viable party.

Obama 60.4 million
Romney 57.6 million
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-07-2012, 7:07 PM Reply   
John, I love shellfish, and I eat it all the time, as do a lot of Christians. I eat everything. I do not know the relevance to that question, except that you want to try to make christians look like hypocrites and only believe what the bible says if it agrees with their belief? Well Sir, you would be correct. Christians are hypocrites, but news flash, everybody is a hypocrite. I can't speak for you as I do not know you, but I can speak for me and my family and close friends. We have all done things that we do not think are right, we have all said things we regret and think are wrong, and I have thought many things that I am embarrassed of and think are wrong. It is not my business, but I am sure you can think of more than a few things you have done that you knew were wrong at the time and still believe they were wrong. Everyone can, because we are human. Just because we did not choose to do the right thing, doesn't mean it is not the right thing. That goes for Christians and Non-Christians alike. So go ahead and point to me and call me a hypocrite, because I am. But do not take the Bible out of context and then use it to prove your point.

You were referring to the Law that God gave to his people Israel. Those Laws were for the Jews, were very strict, and very hard to keep. God did this on purpose to separate His people from the rest of the world (the Gentiles). That Law was over when Jesus came, when a new law was given. So, as a Christian, eating shellfish is NOT a sin and is okay. Even If it was before Christ, as a Gentile, I would still be able to eat shellfish.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-07-2012, 7:10 PM Reply   
Johnny, glad to hear you recognize that eating shellfish and gay sex are not sins and are okay.

Divorce, on the other hand, Jesus explicitly condemned.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-07-2012, 7:32 PM Reply   
Wes. I did no such thing. I did not recognize gay sex as not a sin. I just gave a little context to John's reference to one of the laws given to Israel in the book of Leviticus.

Not sure if you are trying to be funny or if you are making assumptions based on a little info I gave about the Law to Israel and then the example Jesus set. In the Law to Israel, there were certain things they(Israel) were to do, certain rules they were to follow that did not pertain to Gentiles. There were also universal laws that were for all mankind.

"Gay" sex is never mentioned in the bible, neither is homosexual, bisexual, and many other common english terms. Sodomy, however, is clearly defined as a sin as well as divorce in both the Law given to the Jews and in the new testament.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-07-2012, 7:34 PM Reply   
Ah got it - so you think divorce should be illegal then... and putting it in the butt too (regardless of the sex of the butt-putters)?
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       11-07-2012, 7:43 PM Reply   
First off let me apologize for saying Romney won the popular vote, had no idea what I was thinking. On a side note, the Jews rejected Jesus to. God never said the truth would be believed, he just said to preach it. Oh and Wes, you are correct, in times past i was a women chaser, probably one of the worst, but thank God for grace and forgiveness. If I could i would apologize to every women i ever took advantage of. I can tell you that my focus has changed 180 degrees from the man I used to be. It's not me changing my ways, it's the holy spirit making me a new person. @Brett, people who already know the Lord don't need to be preached to, think of it likes this. If a ship was sinking and I had a life boat, I would be picking up everyone I could to save them from drowning. The people in the boat are already safe, it's the ones in the water I would be concerned about. It's not a matter of shoving my opinion down someones throat, i don't do that. I will however take the time to share what i believe could very well be the most important decision of anyones life. Eternity is a long time. One day we will all remember these discussions we had on this forum, we will either look back with much regret, or we will thank God for the day we made a decision to trust in him. God bless fellow wakeworlders.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-07-2012, 7:53 PM Reply   
FLight, glad to hear you got things turned around. Good on you.
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-07-2012, 8:27 PM Reply   
"Eternity is a long time. One day we will all remember these discussions we had on this forum, we will either look back with much regret, or we will thank God for the day we made a decision to trust in him."

Is that the part where people who don't believe in your god go to hell for all eternity? I would think pretty much everybody would sort of be living in hell if it existed because I can't imagine how any decent person could be kicking back in heaven all happy and enjoying themselves, knowing that the majority of people that ever lived, including some of their family and friends were suffering in hell for all eternity just because they didn't believe in the 'right' god. That especially sucks for the majority of people on the planet that grow up somewhere else being indoctrinated into some other religion and who couldn't know any better. But then, that's why hell was invented - mainly as a scare tactic to get people in line with the religion of the day way back when.

Anyway, Obama won, so it's time for all to move on. Hopefully our politicians will work together this time around and get more done, but that'll happen about the same time hell freezes over.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-07-2012, 8:30 PM Reply   
Yes Wes, that is EXACTLY what I said, word for word.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-07-2012, 11:02 PM Reply   
The social conservatives are defintely what is wrong with the republican party.
Because of them, we have Democrats and Republicans mortgaging our future.

How would you feel if you earned $600 and spent $1000 per day, day after day?
This is what our government is doing times 1 million per day.

We really need to stop stealing humongous gobs of money from our children.
We have taken so much money our only option is going to be massive inflation.
And, this will bring an errosion to lifestyles that we know.

Get ready for an America where mom's pray for their kids get a job with the state.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       11-08-2012, 7:56 AM Reply   
Now we need a candidate that proposes zero taxes on wages and only tax investment earnings. LOL
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-08-2012, 11:13 PM Reply   
Fly, since you mentioned it, and everyone else in this thread as you guys obviously appreciate intelligent conversation.

Have you heard of the "fair tax" before. It is a great book to read, an an incredible idea that I back %100 but know it will probably never happen.

it is called: The Fair Tax Book: Saying goodbye to the income tax and IRS

here is the amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Fair-Tax-B.../dp/0060875496

or google the title.

great read, very cheap book and quick easy reading. There is a part 2 with even more detail and information that is even better.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       11-09-2012, 12:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Now we need a candidate that proposes zero taxes on wages and only tax investment earnings. LOL
The AARP would never allow it...
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       11-10-2012, 7:28 AM Reply   
" If I could i would apologize to every women i ever took advantage of." and then BANG the hell out of them!
Flight, you should be a preacher, then you could spin your spiel to the old widow with all the late husbands money and nice house, and she would give you everything upon her death, because you promise her a place in heaven, easy way to make millions and your very good at it, basically raping the elderly for everything they are worth!
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-10-2012, 9:43 AM Reply   
^^^ Holy cow, that was rude! You just made that up Jo!... You need to edit that.
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       11-10-2012, 10:50 AM Reply   
" If I could i would apologize to every women i ever took advantage of." Maybe they were taking advantage of you Flight and if you met them now, they would want you to BANG the hell out of them!
Flight, you should be a preacher, then you could spin your spiel to the old widow with all the late husbands money and nice house, and she would give you everything upon her death, because you promise her a place in heaven, easy way to make millions and your very good at it, basically raping the elderly for everything they are worth!
Is that better Mark?
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       11-10-2012, 3:43 PM Reply   
Joe, it sounds like you know someone who may have given much of what they owned to a ministry. Hopefully it was a decision they really prayed about before they made that decision and that the pastor and ministry used it for the right reasons. I can tell you this, Gods word does say that if you give it will be given 100 fold. I have experienced it in my own life. True story here. A few years ago I was involved in a mens bible study. One day a new guy came to the group his name was Donovan. I'm not sure why but he just rubbed me the wrong way. When I was driving home I felt a crazy urge to give him $1000. I thought to myself, where in the world did that come form? The next week while we were at the bible study I heard the voice inside me again, give him 1000 bucks. I was like are you kidding me? I don't even like this guy! That night I prayed about it and the feeling grew stronger. The next day i took out 1000 cash put it in an envelope and gave it to the pastor to give to Donovan. I didn't want him to know where it came from. I wrote a scripture that I just picked out and off it went. The pastor called me up later on that day crying, he said Dan, none of us knew but Donovan and his family were being evicted from their home because the landlords were moving back in. They needed exactly 1000 to put down on an small apartment and didn't know where the money was going to come from. I am not telling you this story not to brag about being a nice guy, I really didn't want to give someone a grand I didn't know that well not did I really like. This story is played out millions of times across the globe. God still speaks in that still small voice if we will only listen. True there are shysters out there, but I believe if God is nudging you or anyone else to give of what you have, he will bless you for it. By the way your profile says you live in Ohio, where are you catching waves in your profile pic?
Old    Joe (jcfox00)      Join Date: Mar 2009       11-10-2012, 4:10 PM Reply   
"Fly, since you mentioned it, and everyone else in this thread as you guys obviously appreciate intelligent conversation.

Have you heard of the "fair tax" before. It is a great book to read, an an incredible idea that I back %100 but know it will probably never happen.

it is called: The Fair Tax Book: Saying goodbye to the income tax and IRS"

Johnny, here is the link to the site that explains it!
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServ...owFairTaxWorks

the concept would probably put most of my family out of work as they are tax accountants, but I still agree with this concept and would vote for a canidate that would implement it.

Flight, good up on speaking the truth and what you believe! It is refreshing to hear!
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-10-2012, 8:43 PM Reply   
Flight, thank you for sharing your story, it is amazing hearing how God works in peoples lives.

Joe, yeah man, my tax guy and I have spoken about this together. He has mixed feelings, as you could imagine. He thinks it is the right thing to do and loves that it completely eliminates the IRS, tax audits, tax cheats, loopholes...etc, but knows he would have to find something else to do. If your family are anything like my tax guy, they are very intelligent and would do just fine with their knowledge of finances. More people would have more money to invest, and those people will need guidance.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-10-2012, 10:15 PM Reply   
Joe Shmoe, Romans chapter one was written for you starting with verse 18.

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