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Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       11-05-2012, 2:11 PM Reply   
older star hands down. my neighbors have an SS xstar and with the extra 3500# the boat is a champ. they use it a few times a year in salt and its in beautiful condition regardless of that. given those 2 boats take the star hands down, its more consistent and easier to weight
Old    Mark (biggator)      Join Date: Jul 2010       11-05-2012, 2:13 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesHawk101 View Post
You guys can think what you want to I am gonna think what I want to. This thread turned into something that I didn't expect or want it to turn into so I am done as well.

BACK TO THE MAIN QUESTION AT THE START OF THIS THREAD!

Me and my dad are looking at some older 230's and X-Stars with saltwater capability's. We will wait for a later year to get a G more then likely. Are older Stars and 230s any good?
Not saying you can't 'think what you want' (though facts typically outrun beliefs, but I digress) - but you claim to have useful knowledge and won't share it. I have a G on order as does my friend (he posted here as well) and would love to validate what you're claiming to 'know' (not 'think').

If you know something - spill it. I'm not asking you to 'out' your contact.. just point my dealer at another dealer so he can get to the bottom of this as reality or rumor and move our orders as needed.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       11-05-2012, 2:22 PM Reply   
Mark...I believe James said he was from the Tampa area at some point and like was said above marine max is the nautique dealer for that area. So if you are concerned and want your dealer to contact some one I would start with a google search of Marine Max in tampa, FL!!! Next nearest would be Orlando and D has already said they haven't heard a peep.
Old    Jimmy S (JamesHawk101)      Join Date: Sep 2012       11-05-2012, 2:25 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggator View Post
Not saying you can't 'think what you want' (though facts typically outrun beliefs, but I digress) - but you claim to have useful knowledge and won't share it. I have a G on order as does my friend (he posted here as well) and would love to validate what you're claiming to 'know' (not 'think').

If you know something - spill it. I'm not asking you to 'out' your contact.. just point my dealer at another dealer so he can get to the bottom of this as reality or rumor and move our orders as needed.
It isn't dealer. That is the reason I can't say.
Old    Jimmy S (JamesHawk101)      Join Date: Sep 2012       11-05-2012, 2:26 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
older star hands down. my neighbors have an SS xstar and with the extra 3500# the boat is a champ. they use it a few times a year in salt and its in beautiful condition regardless of that. given those 2 boats take the star hands down, its more consistent and easier to weight
How is the wake in the saltwater?
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       11-05-2012, 2:37 PM Reply   
But James if it's someone in your area breaking shafts certainly the dealer(Marine Max) must know as they would have to do the warranty work. Unless these people just broke the shafts and then parked the boat.
Old    Jimmy S (JamesHawk101)      Join Date: Sep 2012       11-05-2012, 2:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardman74 View Post
But James if it's someone in your area breaking shafts certainly the dealer(Marine Max) must know as they would have to do the warranty work. Unless these people just broke the shafts and then parked the boat.
I never said anything about them breaking in my area. I don't even think anyone owns a G within 40 miles of me. All I know is shafts are breaking. I would really like to get off the topic of shafts.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       11-05-2012, 2:58 PM Reply   
^ You started it bud, you reap what you sow!

You are asking if 230s and previous generation xstar wakes are any good. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? Until this point in the game, you couldn't ride a better wake than those two boats! They're still at the top IMO...

I still want to know the answers to my question about shaft size, prop size, G25 etc... Where have you been in a G23 if there isn't one within 40 miles of you?
Old    Jimmy S (JamesHawk101)      Join Date: Sep 2012       11-05-2012, 3:03 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakebordr11 View Post
^ You started it bud, you reap what you sow!

You are asking if 230s and previous generation xstar wakes are any good. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? Until this point in the game, you couldn't ride a better wake than those two boats! They're still at the top IMO...

I still want to know the answers to my question about shaft size, prop size, G25 etc... Where have you been in a G23 if there isn't one within 40 miles of you?
I thought you meant one that someone privately owns. I have been on the ones in dealers and boatshows and such.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       11-05-2012, 3:33 PM Reply   
Not sure on the wake in saltwater. Not sure if it would be any different? Perhaps the boat can take a little more weight? I can only speak of what I have experience with, and with 5000 lbs of ballast the xstar is amazing. I know the 230 wake can be a bit finicky in comparison. Do you like a steep wake or a mellow wake?
I know the xstar wake and I know the SS has held up very very well, with 980 hours and 6.0l and full fly high system the wake is great, easy to get right every time and the boat is well built.

Some will argue this with me but what can you do, some like chocolate while others prefer vanilla.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       11-05-2012, 5:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesHawk101 View Post
I thought you meant one that someone privately owns. I have been on the ones in dealers and boatshows and such.
What about the G25?
Old    Jimmy S (JamesHawk101)      Join Date: Sep 2012       11-05-2012, 5:53 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakebordr11 View Post
What about the G25?
What about it? I rid on one at the boat show. They are barely even released to public.

Last edited by JamesHawk101; 11-05-2012 at 5:53 PM. Reason: Fixed word
Old    Jimmy S (JamesHawk101)      Join Date: Sep 2012       11-05-2012, 5:55 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
Not sure on the wake in saltwater. Not sure if it would be any different? Perhaps the boat can take a little more weight? I can only speak of what I have experience with, and with 5000 lbs of ballast the xstar is amazing. I know the 230 wake can be a bit finicky in comparison. Do you like a steep wake or a mellow wake?
I know the xstar wake and I know the SS has held up very very well, with 980 hours and 6.0l and full fly high system the wake is great, easy to get right every time and the boat is well built.

Some will argue this with me but what can you do, some like chocolate while others prefer vanilla.
I haven't ridden behind any MC's yet and but I have ridden behind the Sport 200, SAN 210, and I am riding behind the G23 in two weeks. So I am used to the Nautique wakes which I really like. But Ill give a Mastercraft A try soon.
Old    Miguel (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006       11-05-2012, 5:56 PM Reply   
2012: WW Year of the troll.
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            11-05-2012, 6:14 PM Reply   
James...

MarineMax just sold their coastal Edition 230 they were sittin on for quite some time.



I do have a buddy here in Tampa who works for the MC dealer and he's sellin his anniversary edition XStar with very low hours. Send me a pm if you want his info...its immaculate shape used in the bay.

And you're right...the closest G23 is prob JD Webbs and he's about 1.5hrs away. But I know of at least 5-6 G23s in the Orlando area off the top of my head, outside of the prototype boats.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       11-05-2012, 7:50 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesHawk101 View Post
What about it? I rid on one at the boat show. They are barely even released to public.
I was wondering if they broke driveshafts too
Old    Jimmy S (JamesHawk101)      Join Date: Sep 2012       11-06-2012, 4:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakebordr11 View Post
I was wondering if they broke driveshafts too
I haven't heard anything about G25 shafts breaking. The one I rode at the boat shrow was like the 10th G25 ever made so they arent widely available.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       11-06-2012, 6:33 AM Reply   
A friend of mine owns a g23 down near tampa. I'll call him and see if he has heard anything about this issue.

And as for the argument that the 230 has one of the best wakes of all time, I can say that I owned three 230's. I never liked the wake when adding over 1.5k in ballast over stock. Apparently, that's because I don't like to ride at 85ft at 27.5 mph. The wake is very good with factory ballast and a little extra weight, but when you slam a 230 and don't ride really fast, the wake can be pretty tempermental.
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            11-06-2012, 6:51 AM Reply   
^^Id be curious as to what lake he rides on with it. Not looking for a ride but wondering what lakes are big enough for one.
Old    Ron (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       11-06-2012, 8:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by LR3w8kbrdr View Post
^^Id be curious as to what lake he rides on with it. Not looking for a ride but wondering what lakes are big enough for one.
Guessing they can run the g23 on any lake that they run an Xstar on. The last wakebrothers show i watched they used a g23 to pull the event and that area didn't seem real big.
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            11-06-2012, 8:35 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordicron View Post
Guessing they can run the g23 on any lake that they run an Xstar on. The last wakebrothers show i watched they used a g23 to pull the event and that area didn't seem real big.
Thank you captain obvious lol I meant around Tampa here. Lakes are not that deep, most are private and do not have see walls. The projects is the smallest lake Ive seen an Xstar on but thats private too. Most private lakes around my area dont have 23' boats on them yet.
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       11-06-2012, 9:17 AM Reply   
^ Don't have or don't allow? Don't really see how operating a 20' boat over a 23' boat would make that huge of a difference out on the water.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       11-06-2012, 9:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by LR3w8kbrdr View Post
Thank you captain obvious lol I meant around Tampa here. Lakes are not that deep, most are private and do not have see walls. The projects is the smallest lake Ive seen an Xstar on but thats private too. Most private lakes around my area dont have 23' boats on them yet.
Just an FYI - G23 doesn't draft much more/any more than a typical V-drive wake boat... something like 25" I believe, which is probably unloaded, but still, loaded up it'll settle about 4-5"?
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            11-06-2012, 10:11 AM Reply   
Im just saying bc of the large wakes, rollers & shallow lakes. No sense having a 23' loaded boat in an 8' deep lake. Hell even a 200 stirs up the mud in some of these lakes.
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            11-06-2012, 10:14 AM Reply   
But then again Im on a lake that has 15 wakeboard boats (210s, Wakesetters, MB) & all but 1 never leave the lift, and its an X2.
Old    Ron (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       11-06-2012, 10:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by LR3w8kbrdr View Post
Im just saying bc of the large wakes, rollers & shallow lakes. No sense having a 23' loaded boat in an 8' deep lake. Hell even a 200 stirs up the mud in some of these lakes.
Nice backtrack. I assumed you were trying to imply that the handling of the g23 was such that it couldn't operate on tighter lakes that some of the pros live on in FL. Thus my comment about those who use stars or 230's should still be able to use the G just fine.
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            11-06-2012, 11:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordicron View Post
Nice backtrack. I assumed you were trying to imply that the handling of the g23 was such that it couldn't operate on tighter lakes that some of the pros live on in FL. Thus my comment about those who use stars or 230's should still be able to use the G just fine.
Not at all...i was at wake games at OWC and saw the G23 live and saw the tight turning radius it had. I was honestly curious as what lakes around here (not in Orlando) a g23 rides on. Bc to tell u the truth Ive yet to see a 230 or Xstar on any of the lakes Ive been on here in Tampa area. Was an honest question for Chatt
Old    Jimmy S (JamesHawk101)      Join Date: Sep 2012       11-06-2012, 12:03 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by LR3w8kbrdr View Post
Not at all...i was at wake games at OWC and saw the G23 live and saw the tight turning radius it had. I was honestly curious as what lakes around here (not in Orlando) a g23 rides on. Bc to tell u the truth Ive yet to see a 230 or Xstar on any of the lakes Ive been on here in Tampa area. Was an honest question for Chatt
There are actually a few lakes around me. Lake seminole, lake tarpon. Then there is saltwater. Also since I ride in salt which boat performs better in chop?
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            11-06-2012, 12:29 PM Reply   
You guys didnt understand my question for Chatt....James I know what 2 lakes are over there (the only 2 lakes over there). I thought Chatt may have been suggesting here in Tampa. And James dont take ur G23 on Seminole please
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       11-06-2012, 12:37 PM Reply   
I'll have to ask what lake/body of water he keeps his boat on. I texted him this morning and he said he's never heard of a driveshaft failure in a g23. This guys knows a ton of people affiliated with cc, which makes me think this whole driveshaft story may be suspect.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       11-06-2012, 12:47 PM Reply   
alot of the lakes in florida have less population... what about elsewhere when massive g23 wakes on bigger lakes are destroying property and gets banned.... hmmm....
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       11-06-2012, 1:00 PM Reply   
Lakes in Florida less populated than where? With fresh water at a premium every lake I have seen in FL is pretty much built out if it can be. Most are over populated and hard to use on weekends. In North Florida anyway and if there is only 2 lakes near Tampa than i am sure they are just as bad.
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            11-06-2012, 1:09 PM Reply   
No...those 2 near him in his county are the only lakes and they happen to be public lakes. There are plenty of private lakes here in FL just not in his area.

Anyways...James is asking if a 230 or Xstar is better for choppy conditions.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       11-06-2012, 1:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardman74 View Post
Lakes in Florida less populated than where? With fresh water at a premium every lake I have seen in FL is pretty much built out if it can be. Most are over populated and hard to use on weekends. In North Florida anyway and if there is only 2 lakes near Tampa than i am sure they are just as bad.
in the orlando area i got the opportunity to ride in the winterhaven chain of lakes,there were 5 houses, 3 gators, saw 2 other boats all week, 1 fishing, 1 barefooting and they came from another of the lakes... there were 5 houses inhabited, 3 had boats, more empty, the whole rest of the shoreline was reeds, cat tails, and gators. in new england lots on the water are 50 feet of frontage, and everyone has 2 docks, 2 boats, an old sea wall that's illegal to fix 100% the way around the lake....
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            11-06-2012, 1:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boardman74 View Post
Lakes in Florida less populated than where? With fresh water at a premium every lake I have seen in FL is pretty much built out if it can be. Most are over populated and hard to use on weekends. In North Florida anyway and if there is only 2 lakes near Tampa than i am sure they are just as bad.
Come down to Tampa anytime. You'll see what Im referring to as butter 24/7
Old    Mark (biggator)      Join Date: Jul 2010       11-06-2012, 1:18 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake View Post
I'll have to ask what lake/body of water he keeps his boat on. I texted him this morning and he said he's never heard of a driveshaft failure in a g23. This guys knows a ton of people affiliated with cc, which makes me think this whole driveshaft story may be suspect.
It is. We had our local dealer call the factory and ask directly. They've had ONE report of a drive shaft failure - total. They asked to examine it and never got it (supposedly damaged packaging en route).. so the 'this is happening a lot' is crap or Nautique is lying to their dealers. I'm going with the former.
Old    Jimmy S (JamesHawk101)      Join Date: Sep 2012       11-06-2012, 2:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by LR3w8kbrdr View Post
No...those 2 near him in his county are the only lakes and they happen to be public lakes. There are plenty of private lakes here in FL just not in his area.

Anyways...James is asking if a 230 or Xstar is better for choppy conditions.
Thank you trying to get back to the point! But seriously which is better guys? Also if anyone hadn't seen earlier in this thread. Me and my dad are choosing to wait a few years to get a G so we are planning on getting either a 230 or X-star in a older model, ie 2007-2010.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       11-06-2012, 2:19 PM Reply   
230 for choppy conditions, it's a bigger boat... Also, coming from a bigger boat, you probably want the biggest boat you can get while still retaining the ability to build a pro caliber wake - this is the 230 IMHO
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            11-06-2012, 2:23 PM Reply   
James...here is that 40th Anniversary 2008 Xstar Saltwater Series I was mentioned if you wanted a Xstar. But there are several around between BAWS & Huston Mastercraft (preowned xstars & x45s)





http://www.bayareawatersports.com/se...sortDir=DESC&#
Old    Jay (ironj32)      Join Date: Jan 2007       11-06-2012, 4:27 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesHawk101 View Post
Thank you trying to get back to the point! But seriously which is better guys? Also if anyone hadn't seen earlier in this thread. Me and my dad are choosing to wait a few years to get a G so we are planning on getting either a 230 or X-star in a older model, ie 2007-2010.
Both are excellent boats, and the answer to your question about which one is "better" depends on what you are looking for in a boat and a wake. These boats are pretty different.

Boat Size - The 230 is a foot longer, and has much more rear cabin space, where as the XStar has more room in the bow.

Wake - As far as size goes, there are pretty much equal. Their characteristics, however, are much different. The XStar wake is much wider from wake to wake, and its shape is way more rampy. You have a larger landing pad in the trough. The 230 is fairly skinny from wake to wake, and is pretty steep. The 230 wake gives you that immediate kick, where as the XStar you have to learn to wait wait wait, before initiating your tricks. Both boats need a bunch of extra weight on top of factory ballast, in my opinion.

The 230 is a bit finicky from side to side, but it is easily corrected with a little counter weight to your port side. The XStar is super stable, and you really don't need to worry about either side washing out as long as your not really overloaded on one side. When fully weighted you'll need to ride the 230 at about 23mph. The XStar you can get away with going a bit slower.

Handling and Performance - The 230, with the ZR 409 and the Acme 1235 prop, drives amazing. Even with 5000 pounds of ballast in it, it gets on plain with no problem, holds speed to 1/10 of a mile per hour. It takes tight corners like a direct drive ski boat...just whips around. From my experience, the XStar is quite-a-bit more sluggish with the weight needed to make a great wake (this is with the MCX engine, so not sure what the bigger engines are like).

When really weighted, you need to pay attention in the XStar because you will take water over the rear...just takes a little getting used to, and then you figure out how to bring the boat to a hault (just finess the throttle a bit and give it little turn at the end, same goes for the G23). The 230 has no issues with this. You can totally cut the throttle and not have to worry about taking on water any where.

Storage - Both boats have a ton of storage.

Price - This should be about equal. The XStar you may be able to find a bit cheaper, as there are more of them, and the hull style goes back to 2004.

For me, I'd take a 230 over an XStar, but that is because I prefer the steeper wake, larger cabin space, and the handling and performance of it.

To really find an answer to your question you need to get out and spend a few hours in both and get a good 30 minutes of riding behind both as well, and decide what is best for you and your family. Also, your local dealers may play a role in your decision as well. You have to have confidence that they will treat you well (not an issue here in Minnesota, as both of my dealers are great!).

Hope this helps.

Last edited by ironj32; 11-06-2012 at 4:34 PM.
Old    Jimmy S (JamesHawk101)      Join Date: Sep 2012       11-06-2012, 6:10 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironj32 View Post
Both are excellent boats, and the answer to your question about which one is "better" depends on what you are looking for in a boat and a wake. These boats are pretty different.

Boat Size - The 230 is a foot longer, and has much more rear cabin space, where as the XStar has more room in the bow.

Wake - As far as size goes, there are pretty much equal. Their characteristics, however, are much different. The XStar wake is much wider from wake to wake, and its shape is way more rampy. You have a larger landing pad in the trough. The 230 is fairly skinny from wake to wake, and is pretty steep. The 230 wake gives you that immediate kick, where as the XStar you have to learn to wait wait wait, before initiating your tricks. Both boats need a bunch of extra weight on top of factory ballast, in my opinion.

The 230 is a bit finicky from side to side, but it is easily corrected with a little counter weight to your port side. The XStar is super stable, and you really don't need to worry about either side washing out as long as your not really overloaded on one side. When fully weighted you'll need to ride the 230 at about 23mph. The XStar you can get away with going a bit slower.

Handling and Performance - The 230, with the ZR 409 and the Acme 1235 prop, drives amazing. Even with 5000 pounds of ballast in it, it gets on plain with no problem, holds speed to 1/10 of a mile per hour. It takes tight corners like a direct drive ski boat...just whips around. From my experience, the XStar is quite-a-bit more sluggish with the weight needed to make a great wake (this is with the MCX engine, so not sure what the bigger engines are like).

When really weighted, you need to pay attention in the XStar because you will take water over the rear...just takes a little getting used to, and then you figure out how to bring the boat to a hault (just finess the throttle a bit and give it little turn at the end, same goes for the G23). The 230 has no issues with this. You can totally cut the throttle and not have to worry about taking on water any where.

Storage - Both boats have a ton of storage.

Price - This should be about equal. The XStar you may be able to find a bit cheaper, as there are more of them, and the hull style goes back to 2004.

For me, I'd take a 230 over an XStar, but that is because I prefer the steeper wake, larger cabin space, and the handling and performance of it.

To really find an answer to your question you need to get out and spend a few hours in both and get a good 30 minutes of riding behind both as well, and decide what is best for you and your family. Also, your local dealers may play a role in your decision as well. You have to have confidence that they will treat you well (not an issue here in Minnesota, as both of my dealers are great!).

Hope this helps.
Thank you! This was a amazing answer!
Old    Dom Forte (shelby)      Join Date: Dec 2011       11-07-2012, 2:56 AM Reply   
In answering your question of which boat will handle a rough chop better, hands down the TigeZ3 will out turn, out perform and out ride the others, with double the fuel economy, but dont take my word for it ,go out in all three in same conditions and see for your self , thats the only way your going to know.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       11-07-2012, 4:36 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelby View Post
In answering your question of which boat will handle a rough chop better, hands down the TigeZ3 will out turn, out perform and out ride the others, with double the fuel economy, but dont take my word for it ,go out in all three in same conditions and see for your self , thats the only way your going to know.
He claims they aren't looking to buy new anymore, so the Z3 is out.

I'd like some hard numbers with an apples to apples comparison proving this 'double' fuel economy statement.
Old    Tampa Wake (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       11-07-2012, 6:32 AM Reply   
Betting Dom is inferring that he can get a Z3 with a warranty and the Tige maintenance for free at about the same price as the X Stars and 230s he is looking at. Not to mention a top notch dealer. If thats all true he would be stupid not to take a look. Look at this wake looks impressive as hell to me. Yes it has extra weight so does ever pros boat no matter the boat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT-c-UaZNgA


Quote:
Originally Posted by wakebordr11 View Post
He claims they aren't looking to buy new anymore, so the Z3 is out.

I'd like some hard numbers with an apples to apples comparison proving this 'double' fuel economy statement.
Old    L W (501s)      Join Date: Feb 2010       11-07-2012, 6:40 AM Reply   
When I was looking at new boats last spring Tige wasn't able to touch the price on I got my X-30 or on a 23LSV. The dealer actually PM'd on this board trying to get me to take a free trip to the factory and come test drive their boats, etc... and when I told him the pricing I had lined up on the MC and BU he said he couldn't touch it.
Old    Dave (schmo)      Join Date: Oct 2003       11-07-2012, 6:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelby View Post
In answering your question of which boat will handle a rough chop better, hands down the TigeZ3 will out turn, out perform and out ride the others, with double the fuel economy, but dont take my word for it ,go out in all three in same conditions and see for your self , thats the only way your going to know.
It's comments like these that makes this site less and less useful by the day. They are all great boats and there is nothing "hands down" about any of them.

Double the fuel economy while making the same size wake? Boats are close to the same in weight, they have to be displacing similar amounts of water, they are using similar power plants. Better economy? Maybe. DOUBLE? C'mon.

Out turn? Have you been in the others? I can't speak for an XStar but a 230 with tons of extra weight still makes a tremendously small turning radius.

What is your definition of outperform? Faster, quicker acceleration, better handling, better wake with less weight ... steeper wake? More mellow wake?

What is useful to the original poster is something like ironj's response that characterizes the differences based on more concrete data and then gives his personal preference but in the end gives insightful information to the poster that helps him make his decision.

Any post that starts with "hands down" and you can basically stop reading right there, IMO. There is no hands down winner to any of these boats since many of them are great and it all comes down to personal preference and need.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       11-07-2012, 7:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tampawake View Post
Betting Dom is inferring that he can get a Z3 with a warranty and the Tige maintenance for free at about the same price as the X Stars and 230s he is looking at. Not to mention a top notch dealer. If thats all true he would be stupid not to take a look. Look at this wake looks impressive as hell to me. Yes it has extra weight so does ever pros boat no matter the boat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT-c-UaZNgA
I wouldn't say pricewise used Xstar = Z3, Z3 has got to be more, 2008 X = 68? Z3 has got to be near 80... maybe lower interest rate... Also need to consider resale - Z3 is new, Tige resale isn't as strong as MC and CC. Do I like Tige, absolutely, but look at resale - he says G23 in a few years, resale value and used demand are higher for MC and CC...
Old    Tampa Wake (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       11-07-2012, 8:04 AM Reply   
Not saying your wrong but your looking at a brand new boat with full warrante and zero maintenance cost for 3 years I believe. There is something to say for that. Also when comparing what true sale cost of a boat is the MCs and CCs go for a much higher price. Willing the to bet the percentage drop is close to the same. I will agree that MC and CC are more sought after so you might have an easier time selling one down the road. Also Dom is in and out of all these boats and knows most backwards and forwards because he services them all I have seen them all at his place so he does not just make **** up and throw it out there. I cant afford any of the boat and would take any of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakebordr11 View Post
I wouldn't say pricewise used Xstar = Z3, Z3 has got to be more, 2008 X = 68? Z3 has got to be near 80... maybe lower interest rate... Also need to consider resale - Z3 is new, Tige resale isn't as strong as MC and CC. Do I like Tige, absolutely, but look at resale - he says G23 in a few years, resale value and used demand are higher for MC and CC...
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       11-07-2012, 8:33 AM Reply   
Doesn't Tige use PCM... Doesn't Nautique use PCM... How on earth would a 23' Tige vs a 23' Nautique with the same PCM engine get "double fuel economy". Wow I think reading that just insulted my brain cells.
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       11-07-2012, 8:36 AM Reply   
http://www.sevylor.com/Monster-Tubet...ble-P2143.aspx

Maybe the new Tige's are using sharkglide technology and it gives them better fuel economy haha. Sorry I'm not bashing Tige at all I swear, that comment about double fuel economy just makes me laugh.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       11-07-2012, 8:53 AM Reply   
The tige pricing argument will go on for ages. In New England it's embarassing how much better of a deal you can get on the Tige's. 30k between an x2 and rzr with the same options checked off. 15 k between a vtx. 5 k between a nautique 200, but that's not even really a WAKEboat, and that's talking boat show deals on a custom order vs. boats sitting in the booth from the other brands.

Yes look at the z3 that boat is simply beautiful, the boat looks like sex despite the fact that it's massive. It had more freeboard than any other inboard until the G I believe. IMPO the interior of that thing is about on par with the new xstar or. G series. Tige's are notoriously good in rough water and fuel economy is definitely better by a long shot... I use only 1/2 to 3 quarters the amount of gas when wakeboarding with my boat slammed to the teeth vs a bone stock x-25, not an apples to apples comparison but what I have the most experience with. I have not ridden behind the z unfortunately so I can't comment on that, but if it's like the other Tige's and I'm guessing its probably pretty similar of a hull in terms of characteristics rather than size to my boat considering they are Tige's two most recent hulls, you get big ramp with the taps at 1 and a wall of water with the taps at 6 or more. 3/4 you basically get a nice ramp with a really mean lip at the top. That boat is definitely worth a look.

Last edited by simplej; 11-07-2012 at 8:56 AM.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       11-07-2012, 9:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakedaveup View Post
http://www.sevylor.com/Monster-Tubet...ble-P2143.aspx

Maybe the new Tige's are using sharkglide technology and it gives them better fuel economy haha. Sorry I'm not bashing Tige at all I swear, that comment about double fuel economy just makes me laugh.
They just do... I mean like I said I'm talking about a 20ftr with PCM 343 2100 lbs vs x25 with indmar Mcx 350 with just the stock 900 and there's a noticeable difference after 1 hour of wakeboarding. Oh and the PCM takes 87 rather than 89... I can't speak for a nautique though and like I said not really apples to apples but the boat is still loaded out...
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       11-07-2012, 10:47 AM Reply   
I can maybe see the difference in a heavier boat with an Indmar versus and lighter boat with a PCM or different make. I'm just saying comparing a Z3 to the 230 with the same exact engine is not going to make a big enough difference to claim a Z3 gets double the fuel economy. Not even close. Now your X25 comparison to a 20ftr well ya that I can maybe see. Not double still but it would get significantly better fuel economy.
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       11-07-2012, 11:17 AM Reply   
Tige is the same way here in MN. The deal is better than any competitor on a similar boat. My example is this I bought a 2013 RZR with a 76K MSRP(retarded) for less than a 2012 Moomba 20V with a MSRP of 56K. Seems crazy but the Tige dealer here prices aggressively. But with that said your not going to get into a Z3 for 60K. I think at a good deal they are closer to 80K.

But what some said has merit. It's the exact thing we looked at and a big reason we bought new. For similar price we bought new with 3 years of warranty and 3 years of free scheduled maintenance. So the first 3 years there is just payment, insurance and gas. To me there is something to be said about that!! As an accountant I liked the fact that it virtually eliminates any unknown financial exposure. I know exactly what the boat will cost every months for the next 3 years. But that comes at the higher cost of a new boat. But when you figure a similar payment on a used 60K boat then add the cost of maintenance and factor in repairs and look at the annual cost used could cost you more. But you beat initial depreciation with used..etc etc.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       11-07-2012, 12:25 PM Reply   
i use a fifth to quarter tank per hour wakebarding (40 gal) with 2100lbs ballast, total of 5600 or so for boat and ballast alone vs 3/8 tank (50 gallon tank) per hour with stock ballast and boat, so 5100 lbs or so. obviously the x25 displaces more because its bigger, but the weight is 500lbs less.
thats 10 gallons per hour versus about 18. still not apples to apples, and still not double, and different props and different measurements of fuel etc, but same 3 riders every time, similar weights etc both brand new tournament inboards... im not supporting the double claim, thats over the top. You may get an extra gph, maybe 5, maybe 0, out of the z3 vs 230 who knows?

im just saying i understand where the statement comes from because of what ive observed
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-07-2012, 12:42 PM Reply   
I have an indmar 335 pushing my 22 foot boat with 4k ballast plus a few people, fuel, gear, etc.. and have the same results as simple. I do not have a flowmeter on my fuel line (although it would be a cool feature), but I do keep my tank full and fill up most of the time after each day we ride.

Mine is not a Tige, or PCM, or a 20 foot boat, and I am approx 1400' elevation.

I do not buy the "they just do" argument that Tige is twice as fuel efficient, I don't even buy that argument for Tige being better fuel efficiency. I like facts, and unless you do a side by side with flow meters and equal ballast, I will continue to not believe it.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       11-07-2012, 1:12 PM Reply   
not many people have a flow meter or access, id love to put them all to the test.

im not asking you to believe it, rather explaining the reason that i personally believe it, it irritates me when people toss out claims without facts or any kind of reasoning at all
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-07-2012, 1:22 PM Reply   
I know you were not asking us to believe it, I appreciate your experience with your Tige and I believe your results. I was speaking to whoever wrote "they just do". I too am irritated by claims without real data to back it up.
Old    Dom Forte (shelby)      Join Date: Dec 2011       11-07-2012, 1:49 PM Reply   
You can get on boat test .com and check out several tested examples, here is one 22 foot to 22 foot MC 4000lbs, Tige 4000 lbs , MC 90gals , Tige 48 gals, MC 171 nautical miles, Tige 168 nautical miles, both same speeds.
As to pcm 6.0l CC or Tige they are infact same ratio same hp 409 , treamendous difference in hull design, Tige uses a deta pad which gives a lower coefiencent of drag at any speed , also with the trim a Tige goes on plane in less time which again you can check out on boatest ,com.
As to ride quality Tige is built with penske synthetic which absorbs more shock.
As to turning Tige will turn perfectly in either direction unlike MC or CC and with no prop cavitation.
But again as I said before , go out and test all in same conditions , loaded and normal , demo the way you would use it and be the judge.
And yes I have been in all of them except the new G23 and can make this claim, also have and continue to work and test drive them regularly .
Hope this gives you enough data, but search out on boatest .com.
Old    Jay (ironj32)      Join Date: Jan 2007       11-07-2012, 3:47 PM Reply   
Gotta love this place. The kid asks about the difference between the XStar and the 230, and somehow it turns into a debacle about the fuel economy of a Tige. Almost as comical as the stuff I've been reading on Facebook the last couple of weeks.

James, if you want more direct insite on the characteristics of specific boats, feel free to shoot me a private message. I'll do my best to help you out.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       11-07-2012, 7:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironj32 View Post
Gotta love this place. The kid asks about the difference between the XStar and the 230, and somehow it turns into a debacle about the fuel economy of a Tige. Almost as comical as the stuff I've been reading on Facebook the last couple of weeks.

James, if you want more direct insite on the characteristics of specific boats, feel free to shoot me a private message. I'll do my best to help you out.
The title of the thread is " Nautique 230 vs.Tige Z3 vs. Malibu MXZ24". You asked for facts,check out Boat test .com. I can tell you from personal experience Tige's get better fuel economy than MC,Malibu,Nautique[ I owned one] Supra ,MB,Axis or Moomba . I'm not saying double,but at least a third.Also Dom is on the money about handling.
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-07-2012, 9:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
The title of the thread is " Nautique 230 vs.Tige Z3 vs. Malibu MXZ24". You asked for facts,check out Boat test .com. I can tell you from personal experience Tige's get better fuel economy than MC,Malibu,Nautique[ I owned one] Supra ,MB,Axis or Moomba . I'm not saying double,but at least a third.Also Dom is on the money about handling.
A third better fuel economy? You would think with such a vast improvement on efficiency, Tige would use that statistic in its marketing efforts...

Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       11-08-2012, 3:44 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattieK27 View Post
A third better fuel economy? You would think with such a vast improvement on efficiency, Tige would use that statistic in its marketing efforts...

Look on BOAT TEST.COM an independent boat review on all types of boats.Looks like more sour grapes.
Old    Dom Forte (shelby)      Join Date: Dec 2011       11-08-2012, 3:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironj32 View Post
Gotta love this place. The kid asks about the difference between the XStar and the 230, and somehow it turns into a debacle about the fuel economy of a Tige. Almost as comical as the stuff I've been reading on Facebook the last couple of weeks.

James, if you want more direct insite on the characteristics of specific boats, feel free to shoot me a private message. I'll do my best to help you out.
Maybe you need to go to his oringinal post, I am responding to that ,I was asked for data and provided that , if you have info to the contrary enlighten all of us, its easy to jest.
Old    Dom Forte (shelby)      Join Date: Dec 2011       11-08-2012, 4:03 AM Reply   
Why is my post bad when I propose that he trys all the boats hes interested in , and those out their must not have enough confidents in their brand favorites to propose the same thing in same water and conditions of use.
If he is serious , he will do just that and then could come on here and gives us his personal experence with those boats and not just our opinions.
To not push him to try all , with the amount of money being spent makes no sense.
Old    Jay (ironj32)      Join Date: Jan 2007       11-08-2012, 4:52 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelby View Post
Maybe you need to go to his oringinal post, I am responding to that ,I was asked for data and provided that , if you have info to the contrary enlighten all of us, its easy to jest.
I did look at his original post.

Quote:
"I am planning on getting a new boat soon and these are the 3 we were looking at. I am looking at the 2012 Tige Z3, 2012 Nautique 230 or the 2013 MXZ. I mainly wakeboard and thats all I want to do. Wakesurf a little, but it isnt very important. Out of those 3 which would throw the biggest and best wake. Keep in mind that I would be using it in saltwater. I am mainly thinking the Nautique because of the Coastal Edition and the quality of Nautiques. Also because Nautiques are used at the Gravel Tour in Orlando and once I get a new boat I plan on competing a lot there. What are your thoughts?"
No where does it mention that he cares about fuel economy. If you follow the thread, the author then clearly states that he wanted to know about the XStar and the 230 in his most recent post...it's just a few posts back, it shouldn't be hard to find. It was immediately after his question, that the subject of the fuel economy of Tige was introduced. No, I don't have info on fuel economy nor did I give any notion that I do, I could give 2 sh**ts about it.

Regardless, to each his own, you can discuss whatever topics you want to.

Last edited by ironj32; 11-08-2012 at 4:58 AM.
Old    Willy T (willyt)      Join Date: May 2010       11-08-2012, 6:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelby View Post
You can get on boat test .com and check out several tested examples, here is one 22 foot to 22 foot MC 4000lbs, Tige 4000 lbs , MC 90gals , Tige 48 gals, MC 171 nautical miles, Tige 168 nautical miles, both same speeds.
As to pcm 6.0l CC or Tige they are infact same ratio same hp 409 , treamendous difference in hull design, Tige uses a deta pad which gives a lower coefiencent of drag at any speed , also with the trim a Tige goes on plane in less time which again you can check out on boatest ,com.
As to ride quality Tige is built with penske synthetic which absorbs more shock.
As to turning Tige will turn perfectly in either direction unlike MC or CC and with no prop cavitation.
But again as I said before , go out and test all in same conditions , loaded and normal , demo the way you would use it and be the judge.
And yes I have been in all of them except the new G23 and can make this claim, also have and continue to work and test drive them regularly .
Hope this gives you enough data, but search out on boatest .com.
Dom,
Can you post screenshots of boattest.com? i dont know what 2 models your comparing and having trouble finding the test results.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-08-2012, 7:48 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironj32 View Post
Gotta love this place. The kid asks about the difference between the XStar and the 230, and somehow it turns into a debacle about the fuel economy of a Tige. Almost as comical as the stuff I've been reading on Facebook the last couple of weeks.

James, if you want more direct insite on the characteristics of specific boats, feel free to shoot me a private message. I'll do my best to help you out.
Honestly i find nothing more annoying than this, and it gets worse when dealers start popping in talking up the boats they sell.
Old    Tony Forte (91Terminator)      Join Date: Jun 2010       11-08-2012, 7:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironj32 View Post
I did look at his original post.



No where does it mention that he cares about fuel economy.

You may want to re read the entire thread. He clearly states fuel economy is a big deal to him as it is to almost all boat buyers since they dont run on BS. Also he never said the Tige was out. It just has not been mentioned as much as the rest. I believe it is because he thinks the Z3 is only a good surf boat, which is not the case The Z3 wakeboard wake is right up there with all the wakes mentioned in this thread some may be slightly better here and there while some are not. That will ultimately be his opinion since we all have our own unique riding style. The biggest thing to me is he says he wants to compete locally and national, the biggest wake is not ultimately what will boost him to the top, His wake does not travel with him to the Pro Tour (MC) Gravel Tour/Wake Games (CC) Wake Open (BU) My Wake (Tige) or any other for that matter. IMPO the Tige wake is the most Versatile of them all, it is huge, more then he will need to begin with coming from a Sea Ray and can be adjusted to a nice transition with a smooth ramp or a big wall with a hole lot of lip and pop to it, this is good for competition since it allows him to dial up a solid Peaky wake for say a CC tourny or a nice smooth ramp for say a BU tourny.

Once he tries them all he will make his mind up and choose the right boat for him.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-08-2012, 7:57 AM Reply   
More dealers............ of course the wake they sell is the best.............
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       11-08-2012, 7:58 AM Reply   
Chris- IronJ owns a G23 but I have never seen the guy bash any other boats and has always been respectful and honest about other brands. Him offering his advice and trying to help the guy out is exactly what is "right" with this website. Not wrong. Don't believe he's a dealer either
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-08-2012, 8:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakedaveup View Post
Chris- IronJ owns a G23 but I have never seen the guy bash any other boats and has always been respectful and honest about other brands. Him offering his advice and trying to help the guy out is exactly what is "right" with this website. Not wrong. Don't believe he's a dealer either
I'm not talking about Ironj, I was agreeing with him. I'm talking about the two tige dealers from florida
Old    Tony Forte (91Terminator)      Join Date: Jun 2010       11-08-2012, 8:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
More dealers............ of course the wake they sell is the best.............
I clearly stated it was my personal opinion.

As a rider I have owned a Chris Craft much like a Sea Ray, a CC, worked as a show skier and rode behind BU and CC for more hours then every one of you combined since water sports was my full time job gas was paid for by the park we rode everyday in between every show. While you where at work behind a desk or whatever I was at work 9 to 5 skiing. After that job work started here where our full time Mech. had an old 210 which we rode after work all the time. Used to be a BU Dealer great wake, great boat.

My Personal Opinion as a Rider from all my experience of skiing all over and competing all over is the Tige Wake is Best for him, but ultimately he will choose whats best for him.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-08-2012, 8:07 AM Reply   
...and your personal opinion is no way influenced by the fact that selling tiges pays your bills.... Sorry don't buy it and have dealt with plenty of dealers and some how their personal opinion always revolves around the boat that puts money int heir pocket.
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       11-08-2012, 8:15 AM Reply   
My mistake Chris I thought you were saying that Ironj's post was "nothing more annoying than this" sorry about that.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-08-2012, 8:17 AM Reply   
No problem man, I probably should have worded it better
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       11-08-2012, 8:19 AM Reply   
Haha no worries I've said that hundreds of time on this site!
Old    Tony Forte (91Terminator)      Join Date: Jun 2010       11-08-2012, 8:23 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
...and your personal opinion is no way influenced by the fact that selling tiges pays your bills.... Sorry don't buy it and have dealt with plenty of dealers and some how their personal opinion always revolves around the boat that puts money int heir pocket.
My opinion which after all is just that an opinion is influenced by the passion I have for water sports, the water sports industry as a hole, My family business, all my core beliefs, and all my experience from the countless hours i have spent in (working on) and behind all the ski and wake boats. Since my experience as a mech. and a skier has ultimately pushed me to Tige Boats (a company that shares the same passion for the industry and the same core business structure as a family owned business it is what I will push to share will all the people I meet in my life. After all that is my job to share my passion I am not a salesman in my own eyes I am only sharing my passion for the sport. I also have a passion for classic cars in which I will soon be selling (sharing my passion with others) classic cars. Does that put money in my pocket yes, is that why I do it no. I just happen to make a living off of what I truly love in this world (which I believe is a major problem today not many people do what they really love, there is no passion) Do what you love not what pays good.

Sorry to the OP to highjack im out whatever you choose enjoy the beautiful FL water ways theres nothing like em and shred hard!

Last edited by 91Terminator; 11-08-2012 at 8:24 AM. Reason: spelling
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            11-08-2012, 8:31 AM Reply   
So now we just need James' MC closest dealership to chime in...BAWS where you at?

For a Tige dealer being in the Tampa bay area I sure as heck dont see them around on the Tampa side of the bridge. Although I have heard good things about you guys and dealt with you on Malibu stuff in past.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-08-2012, 8:34 AM Reply   
I agree with all that, but I've heard the same thing from just abotu every boat dealer I've dealt with, so pardon me if I don't take your "opinions" as non biased

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