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Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       07-05-2012, 1:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by srock View Post
Not my first Wakeworld rodeo and I guess we are discussing it again... I just do not see many MB's and I do not even know where the local dealer is located so I basically ignore any posts. I think I've seen only 1 rolling by the house. Regardless, I still like the fill/dump system itself. From what you say it is just not putting the ballast it in all the right places and maybe they need something more traditional in the bow. Lord knows I have chased enough traditional pump issues, especially those in salt, to justify anything simplified.
Hey... Apologies for my "first day on Wakeworld" crack. I was being sarcastic. No disrespect intended.

You also allude to a common perception that the gravity fed ballast system is simple and trouble free. I thought that too until my last MB had one of the gates get stuck in the "open" position. It required a trip to the dealer to resolve. Then I sold the boat and the new owner had the same issue on the same gate... Another trip to another dealer. After multiple phone calls on the subject, I no longer think Pure Vert is trouble free.

Don't get me wrong... Pure Vert is a cool system. But let's be careful not to overstate the value or the reliability. As Shaun says, it's all about trade offs. No magic pills here.

I might be one of the few people on WW who's had both Pure Vert and the newer, quick-fill pump systems (e.g. I can fill all FOUR of my tanks in 2-3 minutes). I used to LOVE Pure Vert but I'm quickly learning the advantages vs. pumps are NOT what I once thought they were.
Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-05-2012, 1:04 PM Reply   
If you are filling ~2400 lbs in 2-3 min that great. What pumps are you using?
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       07-05-2012, 1:23 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter660 View Post
If you are filling ~2400 lbs in 2-3 min that great. What pumps are you using?
Not 2,400 lbs. But I get your point. I fill 1,250 lbs. in 2-3 minutes using Malibu's new 1,200gph pumps and 1" hoses (last year's Bu's used 800gph pumps and 3/4" hoses).

I'm not saying pumps are as fast as gravity. I'm just pointing out trade-offs and the fact that pump technology is only getting better/faster. Pure Vert was designed to solve a problem... slow fill times. But as pumps get better, that problem is going away, or becoming less noticeable. The gap is not as wide as it was just a few years ago when you'd regularly hear guys complain about 10-15 minute fill times. Do you think pump technology has peaked at 1200gph...? How big of an advantage will Pure Vert be when pumps are 3,000gph and hoses 2" wide?

At some point you start to say... "At 2-3 minutes pumps are fast enough. I can't even put my heater top, helmet and board on that fast. I'd rather have bow and belly ballast."

I used to think pumps would become obsolete. Now I feel like it's the oposite. Pure Vert may become obsolete. Time will tell.

Last edited by ixfe; 07-05-2012 at 1:25 PM.
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       07-05-2012, 1:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter660 View Post
If you are filling ~2400 lbs in 2-3 min that great. What pumps are you using?
The new Bu's have like 1200's and 1" fill / dump lines. They are supposed to be the cats meow..
Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-05-2012, 1:34 PM Reply   
I had 4 T-1200 pumps with 1" lines on my old boat and it took about 7-8 min to fill 2000 lbs. I want to plumb in surf sacs on my 23TWB, but I'm thinking of going with a Johnson pump this time due to the simplicity of only needing one pump and from tests I have read the 720 GPH is faster in the real world that the T1200s. I have no idea why no one is making 2000 GPH impeller pumps. Maybe the amp draw is too high? Maybe a cost issue?
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       07-05-2012, 1:40 PM Reply   
I'd think that all those hose runs would get very hard to conceal, and hard to radius with 2" reinforced hoses.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       07-05-2012, 1:51 PM Reply   
I hate pumps, hoses and bags.

I like ballast under the floor and I like ballast in the bow.

I like the idea of both filling/draining when underway through some sort of hydrogate.

That should take care of wakeboarding ballast.

Surf ballast is a bit more challenging.
Old    Tampa Wake (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       07-05-2012, 2:19 PM Reply   
Faster reversible pumps please. Have zero desire to have the issues all my friends have had with Tsunami style pumps in their system.
Old    Troy Deschamps (TroyD)      Join Date: Jan 2012       07-05-2012, 2:25 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett_B View Post
You are clearly just a troll. Pictures of a dozen production G23's are all over this forum and were posted in response the last time you and a MC dealer were attempting to spread this BS rumor. I got to check out a production G23 in person just last weekend, it was towing a local boarding competition.
Hi Brett, is this the only thing that you found wrong with this post? Or, do you really believe that you can buy 14 MB's for the price of a Star?
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       07-05-2012, 3:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boomshot View Post
Say what you will, sounds like you own one.
The company tacitly acknowledged the fact that this 210 isn't what it could be by releasing the 230 as a different hull - not just an elongated 210. I have been behind the 210, and unweighted it is disappointing. I don't think there is an argument to be made against that - it is small, it really is. Weighted it improves. Trough gone, yes. Old 210 better? Yerp.There is a reason why the top Correct Craft riders get a 230 and not a 210. You don't have to agree with me, I don't care. I think this guy is discovering the 210 is a problem, he's looking for an out. I get it.

Nope don't own one.

I find your name ironic considering the claims you are making. What do you know about the design differences between the 210 and 230? What characteristics are that wildly different?

Any (if you can come up with any) differences have more to do with the fact the boats were designed for different purposes than "acknowledging the fact the 210 isn't what it could be." The 210 was designed to a be an Air Nautique from the start, the 230 was actually the 236 and billed as a cross over. It was never intended to be the flagship SAN when released. Neither was the the 210, it was supposed to slot beneath the 220. Hell the modern 210 and 236 (what the 230 originally was released as) came out the same year, 2007. So don't claim the 230 somehow magically addressed any issues you claim with the 210. The 236 just happened to make a large wake when weighed down, and CC needed a larger boat to compete with the Xstar and other larger wakeboats. I'm sure they would have loved to design a new 23' boat, but after the 220 failure (and 226 for that matter) it made more financial sense to go with the 236.

The 230 became the flagship SAN, that's why their riders ride them; it is what CC gives them to ride. Ask Chat about his issues he had with the 230 when weighed down with a lot of weight. The 230 can produce a larger wake than the 210, but not necessarily as clean. Yes the original 210 was a great boat, but it was a love or hate wake. The new 210 addressed that, and I would say it's 5+ year run with no changes "acknowledges" a successful and popular design...

Last edited by MattieK27; 07-05-2012 at 3:02 PM.
Old    Joe Jones (BamaLurker)      Join Date: Dec 2011       07-05-2012, 3:02 PM Reply   
07 and up 210's suck!!!!!! Period!!!
Old    SS (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       07-05-2012, 6:52 PM Reply   
In my experience, the MB 23 doesn't really need the bow weight. In the 21 widebody, on the other hand, a little bow weight makes a huge difference. Caveat, the 21 widebody is hands down my favorite wake i've ridden, and I don't own one. Something that hasn't been brought up in this thread is fuel tank size. Does anyone know what the fuel capacity is in a mb 23, a 210 or 230, a vlx, etc? I honestly don't know, but I know in my boat, I definately notice a differnce if my tank is low. As such, i'm guessing if one of those boats has a 50 gallon tank and another has a 70 gallon tank, for example, it's something you have to consider when we talk ballast numbers. I think it also affects how much bow weight you need.
Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-05-2012, 7:16 PM Reply   
The 23TWB has a 65 gal tank and I keep it full.
Old    Brett B. (Brett_B)      Join Date: Sep 2010       07-06-2012, 8:03 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
Hey... Apologies for my "first day on Wakeworld" crack. I was being sarcastic. No disrespect intended.

You also allude to a common perception that the gravity fed ballast system is simple and trouble free. I thought that too until my last MB had one of the gates get stuck in the "open" position. It required a trip to the dealer to resolve. Then I sold the boat and the new owner had the same issue on the same gate... Another trip to another dealer. After multiple phone calls on the subject, I no longer think Pure Vert is trouble free.

Don't get me wrong... Pure Vert is a cool system. But let's be careful not to overstate the value or the reliability. As Shaun says, it's all about trade offs. No magic pills here.

I might be one of the few people on WW who's had both Pure Vert and the newer, quick-fill pump systems (e.g. I can fill all FOUR of my tanks in 2-3 minutes). I used to LOVE Pure Vert but I'm quickly learning the advantages vs. pumps are NOT what I once thought they were.
Yep, I agree with this. While it's a neat concept, count me as another who does not want a Pure Vert system. My 2012 VLX fills the 1250lbs of stock hard tanks in 3 minutes (and deploys the power wedge to it's preset spot) with the push of a button. Draining to half full for my wife to ride takes just over 60 seconds also at the push of a button. It's all done just as fast as we can change riders. That is plenty fast for me, and with the presets and automated pumps it's perfect and clean every time.

We have a wide variety of skill sets ride on our boat and I love how "tuneable" the Malibu system is. If we want to ride with more than factory ballast, than I also hit the 3 switches for the extra plumbed in sacks. By using the stock MLS system plus the extra ballast pumps in parallel it takes me just 3 minutes to reach the same 1800lbs as the gravity system on the MB, and with plenty of weight in the bow. Saving 1-2 minutes of fill time in that case just doesn't seem worth it to me.

If I want to really sack it out then I am able to fill 3500lbs total in 6 minutes by running all the fill pumps at once. If you want to run that much weight with a MB then you are throwing pumps over the sides which is a pain and doesn't save you any time. Or you are plumbing in extra pumps/bags/switches just like I did, and you are again limited by the pump speed just like every other pump based system out there.
Old    The Truth (boomshot)      Join Date: Jan 2008       07-06-2012, 9:34 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaLurker View Post
07 and up 210's suck!!!!!! Period!!!
"suck!!!!!!" is a bit much, but it has issues and doesn't live up to (1) what I expected or (2) what should have been expected by Nautique, in themselves, in their hearts. While it's no piece of crap, it is nothing to write home about. I think you're trolling this thread though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett_B View Post
...count me as another who does not want a Pure Vert system. My 2012 VLX fills the 1250lbs of stock hard tanks in 3 minutes (and deploys the power wedge to it's preset spot) with the push of a button.
Sorry to be rude but I am one of those guys who isn't sold on the wedge one single bit. With that much weight, seriously does the wedgie do anything at all to the wake? I think in order for that device to really have any effect it would need to be 5x the surface area and probably located under the bow chines like they were originally thinking. I know that's a controversial thing but I have a friend with a VTX whose stock ballast wake is disappointing, and dropping the wedge just does absolutely nothing useful. At what weights does that thing work for you, and at what weights is it a joke?
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       07-06-2012, 9:52 AM Reply   
The "tunability" argument does have some merit.... if you always have the same crew, same amount of gas, same cargo, and everybody sits in the same place every time. If you have people moving around the boat, you are putting ballast at different places in the boat and then the wake will change. If it DOESN'T change when people move around the boat then I guess I'd question whether and how half or quarter filled tanks (which weigh less than an average adult) can tune the wake where a person moving in the boat won't?

A truly automated system would keep the boat at the same attitude and displacement in the water at a given preset. So it'd dump water from the bow if the kids move up front, and add water to the front and dump it from the back if everybody moves to the back. AFAIK, that doesn't exist yet.

I also don't think it's fair asking whether a VLX can take on 2000 lbs in two minutes. That's a much smaller boat than a twb 23 and it will put out a wake that is more than 99% of people who strap on a wakeboard need or can handle. In my old vride, just the addition of two 225 lb friends made the wake way bigger. Small boats just take less weight to sink (another valid consideration as gas hovers at $4 a gallon).
Old    Brett B. (Brett_B)      Join Date: Sep 2010       07-06-2012, 10:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by boomshot View Post
"suck!!!!!!" is a bit much, but it has issues and doesn't live up to (1) what I expected or (2) what should have been expected by Nautique, in themselves, in their hearts. While it's no piece of crap, it is nothing to write home about. I think you're trolling this thread though.


Sorry to be rude but I am one of those guys who isn't sold on the wedge one single bit. With that much weight, seriously does the wedgie do anything at all to the wake? I think in order for that device to really have any effect it would need to be 5x the surface area and probably located under the bow chines like they were originally thinking. I know that's a controversial thing but I have a friend with a VTX whose stock ballast wake is disappointing, and dropping the wedge just does absolutely nothing useful. At what weights does that thing work for you, and at what weights is it a joke?
I'm guessing you have not spent any time on the newer Malibu's with the power wedge, or your friend just has no idea how to use his boat. At the slower speeds (~19 mph) and lighter ballast levels the wedge does change the shape and increase the size of the wake. At the faster speeds it doesn't do much for the size, but more importantly it changes the shape. Even with lots of ballast the wedge makes a big difference in the shape of the wake. It also helps to keep the wake clean, as the boat is much less sensitive to side-to-side weight differences with the wedge down.

With the wedge all the way down and the wake is rampy with a very mellow lip. Great for learning to clear toe side jumps for example. Raise the wedge a few clicks up and you can just watch the wake stand up and get a nice sharp lip that really boots you vertically. You can make it as lippy as you want to the point of rolling the lip over just by adjusting the power wedge. Just 2 days ago we were running 2500lbs of ballast plus 6 people in the boat at 23 mph and the wedge works exactly as I described it. Had some very good riders out with us and everybody loved how easy it was to get it dialed to their liking.

Last edited by Brett_B; 07-06-2012 at 10:45 AM.
Old    Sean Griswold (seangriswold)      Join Date: Apr 2006       07-07-2012, 11:22 AM Reply   
going back to the OP...I had a chance to demo the same MB yesterday afternoon and as an owner of an 06 B52 I was very impressed with the wake. 3 people plus the rider with stock ballast and I was getting booted. Definitely has a more abrupt feel to it than my wake. It cleans up a little better and the pure vert system is amazing. I am not into surfing but with an extra sack in the back on the side you are surfing on the surf was was massive.

fit and finish on the interiors of MB's have always been great and they have only gotten better. I like the simplicity of the dash gauges and personally don't need the fancy LCD screen gauges. With that being said I am still looking at the 21tomcat and the A22. Seems like the 23 widebody will coming in a bit higher than the A22 and the 21tomcat will come in a bit below. All great boats IMO
Old    Andrew Simmons (Andrew14)      Join Date: Apr 2011       07-09-2012, 9:29 AM Reply   
Sean - awesome to hear that you got to ride the 2012 B52 as well and that the wake made a great impression on you too. I agree with the abruptness of the wake - it is even more abrupt than my 2008 210 when loadeded with factory ballast and the full Fly High kit (about 2300lbs total), but I didn't find it overly abrupt to where I couldn't ride it given my very intermediate skill level (I struggle riding an OG 210 because of how steep the wake is). I'm also not into surfing, but can appreciate how huge the surf wake was and how far back a rider could get from the boat while still remaining in the pocket. The surfers in my crew were having a field-day on that surf wake.

Just to clarify a few things, I've had zero issues with my 2008 SANTE 210 (has 370 hours on it) both cosmetically and mechanically. It is a very solid boat and I have had zero regrets purchasing it. I'm just toying with the idea of moving up to a larger boat (something in the 23 foot range) for more room and to ride better in rougher water so I can take it to larger lakes. I've been thinking about a 230 or Star - however, the MB B52 made a real impression on me because I was expecting it to be a "so-so" boat (build quality wise) with a medicre wake....I was pleasantly suprised with it because this was not the case at all.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       07-10-2012, 5:38 AM Reply   
the first charge Sean took at the wake, he got booted up and the look on his face was priceless followed with a big smile
Old    Sean Griswold (seangriswold)      Join Date: Apr 2006       07-10-2012, 5:46 AM Reply   
this is true...that lip caught me off guard the first pass!

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