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Old    Kyle Kontor (TWCA21Wake)      Join Date: Aug 2011       06-13-2012, 12:08 PM Reply   
I know this may seem like a stupid question but i want a honest comparison. There are two boat i've been looking at a MB 23 and a SANTE 230. It seems like i'm comparing a bentley to a chevy. I got to test drive the 230 about a month and a half ago and completely loved it, although we could not make a deal. But i do not have the opportunity to test drive a MB. Closest dealer is 4 hours away. Ive seen quite a few pop up on here though. The 4 things i am looking for are a awesome wakeboard wake, decent surf wake, and interior size and storage, and rough water ride. If anybody has pics of the MB wake that would help alot. Just wandering about people opinions about these 2 boats.

Oh and both of these boats are brand new and i can get them both for around the same price
Old    - (Txjole)      Join Date: Dec 2011       06-13-2012, 12:20 PM Reply   
Shallow freeboard on the MB and not hinged seats. MB has a better ballast fill system. Nautique has a better dealership network and warranty and fit and finish. If you have a Nautique dealer close and are looking at the same price it should be a no brainer.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-13-2012, 12:24 PM Reply   
If the boats are the same price, which seems kind of out there since typically there is almost 30k difference in price between them, then the 230 is seriously a no brainer just based on resale alone.
Old    Scott Murphy (muurph84)      Join Date: May 2010       06-13-2012, 12:25 PM Reply   
how are they the same price? i thought SAN's were priced equal to MC's?
Old    Mark (FunkyBunch)      Join Date: Jun 2011       06-13-2012, 12:28 PM Reply   
If they are the same price, buy the 230 sell it and pay off the MB.
Old    Davis (Texan)      Join Date: May 2011       06-13-2012, 12:32 PM Reply   
You could not make a deal but you say you can get the 230 near the price of an MB?
Old    Dave Gast (nautiquesonly)      Join Date: Sep 2007       06-13-2012, 12:34 PM Reply   
Yea nautique all day long if the price is the same.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-13-2012, 12:35 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan View Post
You could not make a deal but you say you can get the 230 near the price of an MB?
Lol very true, maybe it's a really over priced MB...
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       06-13-2012, 12:38 PM Reply   
I love the MB but if they are both new and the same price I would take the Nautique only because it would be a way better deal. To be the same price the Nautique has to be a really, really, really good deal or the MB is priced way, way, way to high. The only other explanation is the options/engines aren't comparable at all.
Old    Hate2party (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       06-13-2012, 12:49 PM Reply   
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^230, 230, and 230. What Brett said.
Old    Tampa Wake (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-13-2012, 12:51 PM Reply   
Brett and Hate dead on. Love me some MB but if its apples to apples in pricing go Natique so tell us the difference in price. 10k is a big difference 2k is not a big difference.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-13-2012, 12:54 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tampawake View Post
Brett and Hate dead on. Love me some MB but if its apples to apples in pricing go Natique so tell us the difference in price. 10k is a big difference 2k is not a big difference.
If you're getting a comprable 230 for 10k more than the normal pricing for an MB then that's far from a big difference. You could turn around and sell it for a profit.
Old    Kyle Kontor (TWCA21Wake)      Join Date: Aug 2011       06-13-2012, 1:04 PM Reply   
Yea. The 230 is a smokin deal. The reason is that it is a brand new 2011 that has been sitting on their lot for so long now and they have so many 2012s now. I won't give out price but I'll say that I can now get the nautique for mid to upper 60s especially if it doesn't sell after our summer boat show. Hopefully I'm not mis informed on the MB price.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-13-2012, 1:10 PM Reply   
You can't even get used 2011's for under 80k according to only inboards. If that's the case buy the SAN based on price alone. They want 85k for this one and it has 150 hours
http://www.onlyinboards.com/Details.aspx?ID=33395
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       06-13-2012, 1:12 PM Reply   
What options and engine do each boat have?

I would think a standard(still nicely equipped 23TWB) would be 60ish with the 343 motor. A similar equipped 230 with the 343 was probably 80-85k when it was a current model. It looks like you are in Texas so are you looking at one of the 23 TWB's that is at texas Mastercraft? If so Craig loads some of those completely. That includes custom gelcoat, interior, wetsounds tower speakers, tricked out trailer, maybe the bigger engine, trim plate. I could see getting one of those up into the low 70's range.
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       06-13-2012, 1:25 PM Reply   
There is no way that a MB 23 TWB is priced the same as a SAN 230...unless of course the SAN doesn't come with an engine.

In regards to warranty Nautique is slightly better, but it wouldn't be enough for me to shell out another $30,000.

Limited Warrany: MB: 3 Yrs (parts and labor) Nautique: 5 Yrs (3yrs parts& labor, 2 yrs parts)
Hull Warranty: MB: Lifetime Nautique: Lifetime
Gelcoat: MB: 2 Yrs Nautique: 3 Yrs

I like the 230 and have riden behind it quite a bit. My view of the wake is like most here on WW, it is inconsistent and difficult to make clean on both sides. When it is good it is really good. I havent been behind the MB 23 yet (I will Saturday), but assuming normal market prices and based on my experience with the wake behind the 21 Tomcat, I would pick the MB.
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       06-13-2012, 1:28 PM Reply   
That makes some more sense about the left over inventory. Sounds like a good deal, but you are comparing a 2011 to a 2012(inventory boat) or 2013 if you were order an MB. Not apples to apples, but still a good deal on the SAN. I'll be suprised if that deal lasts very long on the 230.
Old    J.B. O'Neill (gnarslayer)      Join Date: Sep 2008       06-13-2012, 1:30 PM Reply   
i have ridden both boats, and the wakeboard wake is great on both. the MB is better stock due to 2800lbs stock ballast. you could always add a plug n play system to the 230. they both have a ton of room and a decent amount of storage. the nautique has better bells and whistles such as the lcd screen and keyless ignition. 230 has a better tower. the interior on the mb seemed more reliable than the nautique. both have pcm engines and zero off perfect pass and both handle rough water pretty well. an mb is about half as expensive as a nautique but the nautique has a bigger name and are known to be reliable. you cant go wrong with either boat they are both super sick
Old    Kyle Kontor (TWCA21Wake)      Join Date: Aug 2011       06-13-2012, 1:35 PM Reply   
Ok. Cool. Thanks for somebody actually giving their opinion on the 2 boats
Old    Jim Shawley (nautiboy614)      Join Date: Dec 2010       06-13-2012, 1:38 PM Reply   
this makes me feel like I over payed for my 230 if he's in the 60's........but if that's the real number it's worth every single penny!
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-13-2012, 1:39 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWCA21Wake View Post
Ok. Cool. Thanks for somebody actually giving their opinion on the 2 boats
If you're getting a 2011 230 for the mid 60's there is no need to compare the two. The 230 is a much much better deal
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       06-13-2012, 1:50 PM Reply   
What's wrong with the 2011 230 is my only question? 60k for a 2011? That's pretty crazy considering 09's are going for 60k all day long. All BS aside both companies make great boats but the Nautique will have a better fit and finish, resale value (protect your investment), and will come stock pretty much fully loaded. The interior on the Nautique may seem "thinner" or not as plush as the MB but do your research the quality is among the best. At this point I'd say go with the Nautique. Also the MB will have standard wrap around seating while the Nautique has tons of seating options (bench seat, rear facing seats, etc.). I wish I could find more reasons to go with an MB but if the prices are the same go with the Nautique hands down. MB is a great company, great boat, love the big stock ballast system, and PCM engine are about as dialed in as you can get. The deal breaker is simply the fact that a 230 is the same price when it should be 10k more.
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       06-13-2012, 1:54 PM Reply   
http://www.nadaguides.com/Boats/2011...dard-Equipment

I understand Nada is not always 100% accurate and every state/market is different buuuuut..... low retail being 82k!? And you're saying you can get one for 60k?! Why are we even discussing MB here (not knocking MB at all I love their boats but lets be real you can buy that 230 and sell it and prob make a 15-20k profit)
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       06-13-2012, 1:54 PM Reply   
You are going to take a bigger depreciation hit on the MB than the Nautique unless the Nautique is pink and lime green or something. That may not matter if the boat's a keeper, but if you might sell in the next 5 years....
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-13-2012, 2:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakedaveup View Post
http://www.nadaguides.com/Boats/2011...dard-Equipment

I understand Nada is not always 100% accurate and every state/market is different buuuuut..... low retail being 82k!? And you're saying you can get one for 60k?! Why are we even discussing MB here (not knocking MB at all I love their boats but lets be real you can buy that 230 and sell it and prob make a 15-20k profit)
I just looked that up also and that's wiht zero options
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       06-13-2012, 2:09 PM Reply   
I know I wanted to see what the resale value was without adding anything to the boat (best case scenario) and it's still 82k! Typically you wouldnt add much anyways because the boat comes stock with all the upgrades and is accounted for in the base price. That said, I still didn't factor in bimini, boat cover, or trailer.
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       06-13-2012, 2:10 PM Reply   
Oh and that's packaged with the base 343 motor at that price and not many 230's got sold with that motor. Most have the 409 which would actually bump low retail up quite a bit.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       06-13-2012, 2:18 PM Reply   
The 343 is pretty weak for that 230. I owned 3 230s. All had the big engine. I'm at sealevel. If you are going to run extra weight, imo, you need the big motor. I found the surf wake behind the 230 to be excellent. The wakeboard wake with anything under 1k over factory ballast was really nice. However, when you add more weight than that, you have to speed up to keep the wake clean. I like riding at 23mph, not 28mph.

The 230 is a great boat overall. The fit and finish is really nice. I have heard of some problems with the new fct5 tower, but my boats did not have that tower, so I can't speak from personal experience. Best get on planetnautique and read some threads to educate yourself. There are deals to be had on 230's right now. Just so you know, I sold a loaded '10 in early '11 for $82k. It had the big motor and was loaded with options. The 230 will hold its value very well. However, the jury's still out as to whether the g23 will hurt 230 sales.

I know nothing about the MB.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       06-13-2012, 2:21 PM Reply   
If it is the dealer that has 3 2011's listed on their website it has a 343. I don't know enough about the 230 but you may want to make sure that is enough motor for how you are going to use it. Regardless all 3 look really nicely equipped and would be a steal if you pay anywhere under 70k. Those were probably 85-90k boats last year.
Old    Miguel (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006       06-13-2012, 2:25 PM Reply   
how many super old Nautiques do you see out on the water doin work? TONS! that should tell you something.
Old    Kyle Kontor (TWCA21Wake)      Join Date: Aug 2011       06-13-2012, 2:30 PM Reply   
Yes Brett. I think you are talking about the right dealer. We test drove the blue and white one and loved it. Motor felt like more than enough for what we do.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-13-2012, 2:34 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWCA21Wake View Post
Yes Brett. I think you are talking about the right dealer. We test drove the blue and white one and loved it. Motor felt like more than enough for what we do.
That dealer just quoted all three 78-82k. I think you want to get it in the mid 60's but I don't think they are willing to sell them there.
If they were selling thos ein the mid 60's I'd be heading down there now to trade in my boat
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       06-13-2012, 2:35 PM Reply   
If you aren't going to add a bunch of extra weight and can get that boat for under 70k I say go for it. You could probably use the boat for a couple years and sell for what you paid. That one is really cool with the tricked out trailer and fake teak.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-13-2012, 2:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
If you aren't going to add a bunch of extra weight and can get that boat for under 70k I say go for it. You could probably use the boat for a couple years and sell for what you paid. That one is really cool with the tricked out trailer and fake teak.
They want 82,900K for that one
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-13-2012, 2:39 PM Reply   
Trust me, someone is selling a brandnew 230 for mid 60s and I'm on my way, but that doesn't appear to be the case.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       06-13-2012, 2:43 PM Reply   
Chris, maybe he has been working with the dealer and they are really that low? If I was selling boats I sure wouldn't quote my bottom line price to som guy just calling in asking for quotes. Maybe he is getting quoted that low and you should jump in with him so you can both get a great deal. The dealer would probably be more willing to deal on 2 boats then one.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-13-2012, 2:46 PM Reply   
I agree, but it's hard to think they'd come down the mid teens on those boats when low retail is 82k, even with 2 for one. The guy was super cool, I'm sure you could get the blue one down to the low 70s, but mid 60s I doubt, and it sounds like he coudln't get that either from the first post he made
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-13-2012, 2:50 PM Reply   
I'm actually thinking about calling back and seeing what I can do to deal one of them. Just the 343 is going to be rough at the alt
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       06-13-2012, 2:51 PM Reply   
I think anything under 75k is a really great price on that Blue one. 70 or less is insane.

It would be a tough choice though if that blue one was 75k and a 100% completely loaded(tricked trailer, wetsounds tower speakers, big motor, trim plate, etc.) 23TWB for 65-70k. At a 10 grand price difference I might take the 23TWB. At 5 probably the Nautique though. At 15k difference there would be no doubt I would take the 23TWB.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-13-2012, 2:55 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
I think anything under 75k is a really great price on that Blue one. 70 or less is insane.

It would be a tough choice though if that blue one was 75k and a 100% completely loaded(tricked trailer, wetsounds tower speakers, big motor, trim plate, etc.) 23TWB for 65-70k. At a 10 grand price difference I might take the 23TWB. At 5 probably the Nautique though. At 15k difference there would be no doubt I would take the 23TWB.
If you can get the blue one down to the low 70s, then you can get the grey one, whihc is loaded except engine, down to the mid 70s
Old    Kyle Kontor (TWCA21Wake)      Join Date: Aug 2011       06-13-2012, 2:59 PM Reply   
Y'all guys takin my boat...Just kidding. But I've been in the dealership multiple times and they are really great guys. Didn't mean to start a war over prices just wanted a comparison on two awesome boats
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       06-13-2012, 3:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWCA21Wake View Post
It seems like i'm comparing a bentley to a chevy.
Bad analogy. Chevy and Bently don't have the same exact motors like MB and Nautique do. Chevy doesn't outperform Bently, either. But read almost every 230 post on this forum and you'll read about finiky, washed out wakes the require high speed to keep clean. Ever read that about MB??

As far as the money goes, if you can really get a 230 for the same price as the MB then I agree with the masses... get the 230 just because of the deal. Seems fishy to me, but what do I know...?

Just be sure you are comparing apples to apples. MB TWB 23 may not be as expensive as you think. My buddy got a 2012 for $59K and that included trim plate, two heater cores, metal flake gel, four Exile speakers and two harpoon amps (343 motor). That's a fact.
Old    Kyle Kontor (TWCA21Wake)      Join Date: Aug 2011       06-13-2012, 3:34 PM Reply   
Wow. That's a awesome price. Yea. I've really loved what I've seen recently with mb boats
Old    Kyle Kontor (TWCA21Wake)      Join Date: Aug 2011       06-13-2012, 3:38 PM Reply   
Does anybody know if u can have rider presets in the MB. I don't have to have all the screens and what not but just wandering if u can have presets in that perfect pass...but all those screens
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       06-13-2012, 3:42 PM Reply   
Perfect pass has had rider presets for a long time so my guess is yes. If you were looking at MB's at Texas Mastercraft call and talk to Craig. He posts on here a lot. Tell him you are on wakeworld and see if he can help you out at all on the price. Without knowing the exact boat I would think you could get a MB23 for 65kish. He seems to be a super cool guy from his posts here. Might be worth a shot.

DBC brings up some good points. If you are a beginner wakeboarder or have people that are beginners the SAN230 might be a poor choice. Even at a great deal it might not be worth it if you aren't happy with the wake/wave it produces. From what has been talked about on wakeworld the MB will produce a cleaner wake, a lot better wake with stock ballast full and a lot better surf wake stock.

Also as for the comparison I would compare them more like an Escalade and Denali or Escalade and Tahoe LTZ. Same power plants, same quality core construction, same room and storage, better fit and finish in the nautique, more bells and whistles in the Nautique. The difference being the MB actually performs better then the nautique where a denali is going to perform identical to an escalade.

Last edited by polarbill; 06-13-2012 at 3:47 PM.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       06-13-2012, 3:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWCA21Wake View Post
Does anybody know if u can have rider presets in the MB. I don't have to have all the screens and what not but just wandering if u can have presets in that perfect pass...but all those screens
You can, but only on stargazer. Its a PITA to set up and is just as easy to to just manually adjust the speed up and down. It's not tied into the ballast or anything. Ballast must be filled and drained manually.
Old    - (Txjole)      Join Date: Dec 2011       06-13-2012, 4:58 PM Reply   
They wouldn't take $70k cash money less trailer. Me in a truck with green cash, not a transfer. You must have pictures of someone's wife.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       06-14-2012, 7:12 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
...better fit and finish in the nautique
I never know what people mean by this...

If you mean that Nautique has a nicer interior, I would debate that. Just look at the pics. The MB interior is money. Their vinyl is thick and luxurious. It offers a variety of different textures, patterns, and colors. The padding is thick and firm and the seat backs are nicely sloped. On the other hand, the Nautique seating is generally hard, verticle, and chopped up in it's appearance. Neither is as nice as my new Bu... but you didn't ask about those boats.

Which one looks more comfortable to you...?





I'm not saying there are no reasons to get a Nautique. I just wouldn't say that seating is one of them, unless you like a transformable interior with lots of rear facing seats... then Nautique is your boat!
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       06-14-2012, 7:19 AM Reply   
^^ I think everyone is talking about the build quality and longevity.

Something you would know nothing about since you've owned 5 MB's for a total of 3 months each..

I don't disagree with you - I think the Natique is least comfortable, less aestetically pleasing of the whole bunch. But I think they are taking about build quality, product quality - not just what looks comfier.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       06-14-2012, 7:27 AM Reply   
Hahahaha. That's one of my old 230's right there. My friends called it the Earnhart boat, because it was all black with red accents. Here are some more pics of that boat. Some Dr. in Maryland owns it now.
Attached Images
         
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       06-14-2012, 7:28 AM Reply   
You are all wet Jeff. I'm sure DBC will correct me, but he had a 21 TWB for several years and then upgraded to a new 21 Tomcat that he used for one season. I resepct his opinion and experience with MB. I think Nautique is a great boat and would love to won one, but find me an MB that is less reliable and hasn't held up as well as an equal age Nautique. Good luck.

This adage about "build quality" and "fit and finish" gets really old. It's all subjective and has no real meaning only ones perspective and opinon. The real question should be, "How will the boat perform 10-15 years from now if I complete all required maintenece and follow the manufacturers maintenence schedule?" In both cases, i think the answer should be: "VERY WELL!!!"
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       06-14-2012, 7:44 AM Reply   
Fit and finish pertains to a lot of what you don't see in the boat. A good comparison would be an 05 VLX vs. an 05 Nautique. If you look at the floor in the VLX you'll see bracketed seat bases and just looks like the boat was pieced together. If you look at the Nautique it is a solid fiberglass floor (not pieced together) meaning the fit and finish is much better. (Im not picking sides here either Im just using an example). Also DBC I owned an MB B52 for 3 years and lets just say that boat did have the cleanest wake that's for sure. It took so much playing around with weight to get the wake equal on both sides. Point being, every boat has a washy wake, every user sits in a different area affecting that wake, every boat is weighted differently, and used differently. I respect your experience with MB and agree they are great boats. The 230 however is a higher quality boat and the fit and finish (building process from the second the boat is built) is much better
Old    - (Txjole)      Join Date: Dec 2011       06-14-2012, 7:46 AM Reply   
87 years of building boats i'm sure you learn a few tricks that makes you stand apart.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       06-14-2012, 7:51 AM Reply   
BTW, I thought the interior of the 230 was plenty comfy. The platform... not so much.
Attached Images
 
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       06-14-2012, 7:51 AM Reply   
^ agreed and DBC in all honesty "thick and firm" vinyl does not mean its better. It all comes down to quality of materials and breathability when speaking of vinyls. Plus you say they have different texture schemes and so on? Every boat manufacturer does. Does MB use Gortex thread to stitch their vinyl? Gortex is the most breathable and highest quality thread on the market and its 6 times more expensive than standard thread. I know this is a small feature but these are the things that makes the nautique stand apart and these are things that most people don't know. MB's are great, I'm not knocking them at all. But if we are debating quality of interior, hands down Nautique has it.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-14-2012, 8:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakedaveup View Post
^ agreed and DBC in all honesty "thick and firm" vinyl does not mean its better. It all comes down to quality of materials and breathability when speaking of vinyls. Plus you say they have different texture schemes and so on? Every boat manufacturer does. Does MB use Gortex thread to stitch their vinyl? Gortex is the most breathable and highest quality thread on the market and its 6 times more expensive than standard thread. I know this is a small feature but these are the things that makes the nautique stand apart and these are things that most people don't know. MB's are great, I'm not knocking them at all. But if we are debating quality of interior, hands down Nautique has it.
Exactly. MBs are nice boats, but there is a reason they sell for much less than a san, they aren't built as nicely. My biggest dislike of the MB is the freeboard. SANs have great freeboard. In the end the fit and finsh of a SAN is better period, if MBs were comprable they would also be comprable in price. You can't put as much into a 60-70k boat that you can into a 85-100K. Facts are facts
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-14-2012, 8:03 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
I never know what people mean by this...

If you mean that Nautique has a nicer interior, I would debate that. Just look at the pics. The MB interior is money. Their vinyl is thick and luxurious. It offers a variety of different textures, patterns, and colors. The padding is thick and firm and the seat backs are nicely sloped. On the other hand, the Nautique seating is generally hard, verticle, and chopped up in it's appearance. Neither is as nice as my new Bu... but you didn't ask about those boats.

Which one looks more comfortable to you...?





I'm not saying there are no reasons to get a Nautique. I just wouldn't say that seating is one of them, unless you like a transformable interior with lots of rear facing seats... then Nautique is your boat!
What that picture doesn't show is freeboard. I think a deep freeboard is much more comfortable than sitting wiht my knees up to my chest. My friend has a beatiful MB and they are nice boats, but they are not more comfortable than other brands. I know the freeboard is due to the tanks, but that's a huge thing for me and it's why I would never buy an MB or a moomba.
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       06-14-2012, 8:15 AM Reply   
^^ I want to hang out with Chatt haha. You say that swim step wasn't comfortable I call Bull $hi! you look pretty comfy lol
Old    Tampa Wake (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       06-14-2012, 8:55 AM Reply   
Would be interested in what the freeboard is in a CC. Its low as hell to me and I am a tall guy. Its my only gripe on their boats. They scoop out the drivers side to make it deeper but every where else is low. I think the freeboard is the same or damn near close in the MB and CC having just sat my arse in both at a tradeshow and no not a G23 a 210 and 230.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-14-2012, 8:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tampawake View Post
Would be interested in what the freeboard is in a CC. Its low as hell to me and I am a tall guy. Its my only gripe on their boats. They scoop out the drivers side to make it deeper but every where else is low. I think the freeboard is the same or damn near close in the MB and CC having just sat my arse in both at a tradeshow and no not a G23 a 210 and 230.
It's been a while since I sat in a SAN, but the 210 I sat in was more like my BU. THe MBs freeboard is super shallow. Best freeboard is the tige and MC
Old    Tommy G (tommyg)      Join Date: Apr 2002       06-14-2012, 9:27 AM Reply   
I was in a similar position to the original poster. was planning on buying an MB, but got a smokin deal on a leftover '11 23 LSV. Actually bought the boat previous to that ('02 SAN) also as the last leftover when I bought it in '03.

No complaints on either purchase. I got more boat than I was originally in the market for, and I have no doubt in my mind that I got an incredible deal. Grab the SAN and don't look back. SAN interior might not look as comfortable, but I equate it to a BMW...it's just got a solid tight feel to it (and everything about the boat). You can just feel the quality.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       06-14-2012, 9:33 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_mn View Post
^^ I think everyone is talking about the build quality and longevity.

Something you would know nothing about since you've owned 5 MB's for a total of 3 months each..

I don't disagree with you - I think the Natique is least comfortable, less aestetically pleasing of the whole bunch. But I think they are taking about build quality, product quality - not just what looks comfier.
Thanks for clarifying. I never know what people mean by "fit and finish." You are 100% correct, I have no idea how long an MB will last. I owned two of them over three seasons.

My comments were strictly related to vinyl and seat cushions... essentially comfort while in the seated position.

And just to be clear, I was not knocking Nautique. I fully recognize that some may value the rear facing seating.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       06-14-2012, 9:48 AM Reply   
Chris, I and everybody understand what you are saying but freeboard has nothing to do with the interior depth of the boat. Freeboard is the distance from the water line to the top of the deck. In that case the MB has ton's of freeboard. The 230 has quite a bit as well. Now I agree with you that the MB does not have a very deep interior. the seat backs aren't that tall and either are the seat bases(distance from cushions to floor). I believe the reason is MB decided to lift the floor above where it would be in most boats so they can have more ballast. IT is a give and take type situation. I have never thought of Nautique's as deep boats as far as the interior goes. In my opinion MB, Nautique and Malibu are all fairly shallow as compared to Mastercraft, Centurion and Tige. I don't know that is necessarily a bad thing to have a shallower boat in side as it probably means the boat is a little more sleek looking(better in my opinion) then some of these new super deep boats. I don't really see the need to have a super deep boat though. I am sure it is nice for feeling safe with kids in but unless these people are using their boat in 5 foot sea's I don't really see the need. Whatever though. Having the extra storage is nice.
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       06-14-2012, 9:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakedaveup View Post
Fit and finish pertains to a lot of what you don't see in the boat.
Uh...no, that is not what "fit and finish" is pertaining to.
According to http://dictionary.babylon.com/fit_and_finish/

"The evaluative standard of a vehicle's cosmetics. Good fit and finish means all the body panels and trim are evenly spaced, aligned, and secure. The paint is evenly applied with no bubbles or pit marks. "

What you are referring to in your example of of the VLX vs SAN is a difference in CONSTUCTION METHOD, not FIT & FINISH.

Fit and Finish DOES NOT EQUAL manufacturing process/construction methods.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       06-14-2012, 10:25 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakedaveup View Post
Also DBC I owned an MB B52 for 3 years and lets just say that boat did have the cleanest wake that's for sure. It took so much playing around with weight to get the wake equal on both sides. Point being, every boat has a washy wake, every user sits in a different area affecting that wake, every boat is weighted differently, and used differently. I respect your experience with MB and agree they are great boats. The 230 however is a higher quality boat and the fit and finish (building process from the second the boat is built) is much better
My comments about wake differences were based mainly on Chatt's complaints about the 230 wake (and probably some others I have read). I have not experience with the 230, just what I read, and Chatt has been very vocal about his struggles there.

I'm not sure what MB you had... was it one of the newer hulls (2009 or newer)? My experience with both a 2009 and 2012 was that as long as I got the people sitting evenly, the wake was clean at 20+ mph. I got the impression from Chatt's posts that the 230 struggles were more than just moving people to their proper seats. I could be wrong on that.

Don't read into my comments too deeply. I'm not advocating for MB. Just trying to be objective given personal experience + what I read on this very forum. My perception is that the MB wake is less finicky, but YMMV.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       06-14-2012, 10:40 AM Reply   
Freeboard has come up here a few times. I owned two MB's and never felt they were shallow inside. But then again, I never took a tape measure to them to compare. So who knows. I'm just telling you, they seemed deep and comfortable to me. You have to remember... even though their are tanks under the floor, the exterior of those boats is TALL. Have you looked at the rear end? When I got my first MB, I got teased by all you for the ass being so big. Hehe.

I'm not saying folks are wrong... just that I never really witnessed low freeboard as an issue. I think it would be cool to actually measure freeboard on these boats to see what the real numbers are. Again, from what I read on this forum, I never go the impression that Nautique was a particularly deep boat either.

Listen guys... you don't have to convince me. I'm not an MB owner anymore. I'm a "Big 3" guy now so I get it... I see the value, and I'm fully invested at this point. I just think these threads would be so much better if we had real data. Instead we get anecdotes like, "Nautique uses uber fancy thread" or "MB uses 50oz. vinyl." *** for tat. What we really need is a third party who could tear these boats down and do unbiased, proper comparisons of all the nitty gritty.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       06-14-2012, 10:48 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
Exactly. MBs are nice boats, but there is a reason they sell for much less than a san, they aren't built as nicely. My biggest dislike of the MB is the freeboard. SANs have great freeboard. In the end the fit and finsh of a SAN is better period, if MBs were comprable they would also be comprable in price. You can't put as much into a 60-70k boat that you can into a 85-100K. Facts are facts
Did you go to the MHunter school of finance. "The price is higher; therefor, it must be better quality!"

I'm not saying Nautique quality is not higher... just that using price point as the proof ignores about 100 other variables in how these boat company's financials work in the real world. I'm talking about the kind of variables you and I have no clue about (overhead, marketing, volume, econmies of scale, supplier negotiations, geography, supply chain, debt structure, appetite for growth, profit expectations, workforce, etc. etc. etc.).
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-14-2012, 10:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
Chris, I and everybody understand what you are saying but freeboard has nothing to do with the interior depth of the boat. Freeboard is the distance from the water line to the top of the deck. In that case the MB has ton's of freeboard. The 230 has quite a bit as well. Now I agree with you that the MB does not have a very deep interior. the seat backs aren't that tall and either are the seat bases(distance from cushions to floor). I believe the reason is MB decided to lift the floor above where it would be in most boats so they can have more ballast. IT is a give and take type situation. I have never thought of Nautique's as deep boats as far as the interior goes. In my opinion MB, Nautique and Malibu are all fairly shallow as compared to Mastercraft, Centurion and Tige. I don't know that is necessarily a bad thing to have a shallower boat in side as it probably means the boat is a little more sleek looking(better in my opinion) then some of these new super deep boats. I don't really see the need to have a super deep boat though. I am sure it is nice for feeling safe with kids in but unless these people are using their boat in 5 foot sea's I don't really see the need. Whatever though. Having the extra storage is nice.
For me it's a comfort thing, I'm 6'1 and when my knees are up high due to how shallow the floor is in respect to the seats I'm just not comfortable. My bu is significantly deeper than the MB, and it's fairly shallow. I love how the TIGE and MC feel depth wise. it also makes the boat feel like you're getting more for the money. If you sit in an RZ2 then go sit in a MB you can't help but notice the lack of comfort between the two. I use those two becasue they are the two extremes. SANs are significantly deeper than MBs. MB and Moomba are the two most shallow wakeboats I've ever been in
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-14-2012, 10:55 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
Did you go to the MHunter school of finance. "The price is higher; therefor, it must be better quality!"

I'm not saying Nautique quality is not higher... just that using price point as the proof ignores about 100 other variables in how these boat company's financials work in the real world. I'm talking about the kind of variables you and I have no clue about (overhead, marketing, volume, econmies of scale, supplier negotiations, geography, supply chain, debt structure, appetite for growth, profit expectations, workforce, etc. etc. etc.).
No, but typically that's the way it works, and in this particular example it's 100% true. You can feel a significant difference in quality between the two. i know you love your MBs, but I don't have a dog in the fight, I've just been in both boats and the quality level is apparent. I'm not saying MBs are bad boats, they are the best price point boats out there IMO, but they are price point boats, Nautiqes don't fall in that category for a reason.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-14-2012, 11:08 AM Reply   
I am a big MB/CC fan and I love both boats/wakes.

While you may argue that CC has better build quality, I would argue that MB build quality is of no concern. Their quality is top notch.

CC is much better at NVH (Noise Vibration) and rear faced seating (with rigid comfort/styling).

My other gripe with MB is with their finger slamming gullwing rear hatches (that they eliminated in their F24).

A pretty short gipe list for a boat with amazing performance/value.
Old    Jack (miljack)      Join Date: Feb 2006       06-14-2012, 11:18 AM Reply   
I will say that after having been in both boats the OP asked about, the Nautique for the same $$ is a no brainer. The MB provides a good value for somebody who's first priority is the wake performance, and maybe is not so worried about luxury, fit and finish and resale. The surf wake is really good behind the TWB 23 with an extra 800# on top of stock (this is how I surfed it), didn't get a chance to wakeboard behind it.

The 230 is a great all around boat, the stock wakeboard wake is great and is not at all finicky. If you want to add weight to a 230, then you may have to mess some, but this in the range of 4-5 thousand pounds. I have a Fly hi add-on system in mine, and we've had two riders use it that way, and we had no problem with the wake with 2 people in the boat. So we had approx. 3100# of ballast in the boat (no people or gear/gas weight included) and the wake was clean and HUGE! The surf wake with this system is comparable to the MB's (added weight also). Personally, I like the rear facing seating so we can watch the riders, and having the ability to change the seating up as an option, not important for everybody I realize. I have been able to clean up one side of the wake as slow as 17mph for beginners, around 18-19mph for both sides.

Demo both if possible and decide what's important to you about the boat, then go enjoy it!

Full disclosure; I own a 230, but was seriously considering an MB 23.
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       06-14-2012, 11:34 AM Reply   
Get the 230, sell it in the offseason then get a 13 23 TWB. They are making a good amount of changes to the boat next year from what i've heard.
Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       06-14-2012, 11:51 AM Reply   
I bet if MB started charging $35k more for the exact same boat they are building now WW would fall in love with them.
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       06-14-2012, 12:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter660 View Post
I bet if MB started charging $35k more for the exact same boat they are building now WW would fall in love with them.
You're saying that WW isn't hard as diamonds for the MB?

Right.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       06-14-2012, 12:16 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_mn View Post
You're saying that WW isn't hard as diamonds for the MB?

Right.
That is what I was thinking. In general the wakeworld community loves what MB is doing. Myself included. They still have things I don't like though. Then again every single boat out there has something I would do differently.
Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       06-14-2012, 12:30 PM Reply   
My point was it seems like every conversation comes back to the point that MB can't be as good as XYZ because it's cheaper. Maybe this point is being made by the same few people every time and is not the major opinion of the forum.

When looking for a new boat this spring I considered every brand. I did not demo everything, but I spent a lot of time in several boats at boat shows and decided a 23TWB was the best fit for me. It happens to be one of the few boats in my price range, but even if price was no object I still would have done the same. (This was pre-G23, that boat looks sweet!!!) I will be picking it up on Saturday. Yes, there are things that MB does that I do not like, as with every other boat I looked at. They just do so many other things right.

I made an offer to Chattwake to take a set behind my new boat. I hope we can work out a time that allows us to do that. My intentions is not to try and prove that the wake behind an MB is better than his Axis, but simply to let someone that does not own an MB see what they are like and offer a fair comparison. This invitation is extended to anyone willing to make the drive to meet me at the lake.
Old    Dave O (wakedaveup)      Join Date: May 2012       06-14-2012, 12:40 PM Reply   
^^^ Thats along drive for me haha all BS aside, I don't know who said what, but I dont think the case is that MB isnt as good as XYZ because it's cheaper. It's cheaper becuase they don't use the same quality of materials as other manufacturers which in return makes for a cheaper boat. They may also use a more "inexpensive" way of building there boats. (kind of hate the word cheap when refering to these boats, inexpensive sounds better lol). I know Nautique's factory layout and building process was incorporated from BMW. Bill Yeargin really came in and furthered this companies potential not to mention spent countless hours trying new procedures throughout the factory to put out the highest quality product they are capable of. One walk through that factory and you would be amazed. The only factory I haven't been to is MC and I can say right now that IMO correct craft has the most efficient and dialed in factory I have ever seen. Some may take this as a biased opinion and yes I believe in CC but don't think for a second I wouldnt take an MB or Xstar for the right deal as I have faith in both manufacturers and boats. My preference for the long term investment and quality just lies within CC due to what I've seen and what I have to compare to.
Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       06-14-2012, 12:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakedaveup View Post
Thats along drive for me
I can't be everywhere.

I worked at MC last summer as an engineering intern. I have been on multiple tours of Malibu/Axis. I have never been to Nautique, but everyone I know of who has was impressed.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       06-14-2012, 12:51 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter660 View Post
I bet if MB started charging $35k more for the exact same boat they are building now WW would fall in love with them.
They'd go out of business. The extra money does go towards some key things. Are CCs over priced, yes, but they still have more bling to them than MB period and a better resale value. They have established themsleves, much like MC. I have issues wiht the company MC, but you can't deny their quality in most of their models
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       06-14-2012, 1:18 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakedaveup View Post
^ agreed and DBC in all honesty "thick and firm" vinyl does not mean its better. It all comes down to quality of materials and breathability when speaking of vinyls. Plus you say they have different texture schemes and so on? Every boat manufacturer does. Does MB use Gortex thread to stitch their vinyl? Gortex is the most breathable and highest quality thread on the market and its 6 times more expensive than standard thread. I know this is a small feature but these are the things that makes the nautique stand apart and these are things that most people don't know. MB's are great, I'm not knocking them at all. But if we are debating quality of interior, hands down Nautique has it.
Here is a good video of their factory and boat building process, I have heard that they do use the Gortex thread plus many other high quality components. I also like that their graphics are geled in. Bassboats have been doing this for years and it really does add to the longevity of the exterior.

Cheaper price doesn't always mean they use cheaper products. Many times, the higher price comes from more overhead like advertising, sales people, name recognition.... I am in IT consulting business - many times the big name product is more expensive because of the above reasons, not because they use better materials. No doubt that the Nautique is a well built boat, but to say something is made from higher quality materials just because it is more expensive is ignorant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNlfqpYywRI

Last edited by Bamabonners; 06-14-2012 at 1:24 PM.

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