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Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-05-2012, 11:13 AM Reply   
Ok, I know this sounds nuts. But since I cut down the swim platform I can visibly see these chines causing wash and disrupting the wave. So I talked to my local fiberglass shop and turns out he did this to his old ski boat to improve the wakeboard wake. According to the engineers the are left over from water ski days, and their new surf boat actually doesn't have them (I like to believe I played a role in that. They are called chines. My biggest question is does anyone know why some boat manufactures have a small flat area in the corners of the transom? I know MB, Centurion and sanger all have them. Here are some pictures. I am not expecting a giant change but hopefully a nicer wave. Also the chines cause lift so cutting them should allow me to run less weight and get the same wave. So do I make them just a sharp angle like the new Tige z3 and the malibu 247 or put a flat section in like mb, centurion and sanger?
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Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-05-2012, 11:15 AM Reply   
Here are pictures of other boats. The first is the new Tige z3 chines cut out.
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Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       05-05-2012, 11:20 AM Reply   
I would trade boats before I did that. Even changes to the hull as small as a 1/8" can make a difference to the wake and how the boat handles.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-05-2012, 12:11 PM Reply   
Well luckily for me Tige already just cut them out on their demo boat. This is happening just looking for thoughts on shape. Plus spending 800 on cutting these out is sure cheaper then selling my boat
Old    doug rose (dougr)      Join Date: Dec 2009       05-05-2012, 12:49 PM Reply   
Cut them straight. Then you can always go back and cut them more. Just like the Enzo in the pick. It's better to make small changes than large ones. I could only imaging trying to put them back on. Not so fun. Let us know the results.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-05-2012, 1:32 PM Reply   
I think the fiberglass guy also thinking straight cuts will be easier.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-05-2012, 3:01 PM Reply   
You can see all the deeper v boats run the flats and the shallower v boats have no flats. Probably to do with required lift and to prevent excessive roll when turning. Why not cut it with no flats but in set thread inserts so you can shape a variety of wedges from wood and bolt them on to try lots of different amounts of wedge? That way if it is a total loss you can restore factory performance by attaching the correct shaped wedge and you get to understand the effect of chines of different sizes. You would never know if you had the best possible performance unless you can use this method.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-05-2012, 3:08 PM Reply   
I can only imagine how much fun it would be to develop a bunch of chines and bolt them on to test them. The more I think about it the better this idea sounds. some ideas are like farts, you need to let them out before you know if they stink or not.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-05-2012, 3:30 PM Reply   
I like that idea! So just an angle continuing with the hull. I could add inserts at any point as long as the fiberglass job is thick enough, and I have a friend with a cnc machine so I could always have him make any shape out of aluminum or even like rubber. The Tige transom isn't as deep of a v as the centurions. Looks more like the malibu in my mind.
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Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-05-2012, 3:33 PM Reply   
While the good ideas are flowing: do you surf both sides? How about asymmetric chines, none surf side, bigger than factory non surf.
Old    Nick Wiersema (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-05-2012, 3:35 PM Reply   
Straight cuts will be easier, not only to cut, but also to repair/refit. And, Darren's observation seems pretty accurate. Generally speaking, the boat hull is two parts engineering, 1 part molding limitations, and 1 part non-nonsensical mysticism.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-05-2012, 4:49 PM Reply   
Well I was almost sold on keeping the angle, now I am thinking of going straight. I have a full day to decide. They get cut on monday.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       05-05-2012, 5:12 PM Reply   
Duffy, You are a rad dude and have always been one of the friendly guys on wake world. But i think you are nuts to cut your hull. There is so much that goes into the fluid dynamics of a boat hull. Looking at profile images from the rear does not give you enough information...especially when you compare different makes and models. The grounds for comparison are just not there, too many other factors are involved.

Those chines serve a purpose, they work with the hull as a system, the engineer who designed it put them there for a reason. There is so much that goes into fluid dynamics and hydro dynamics, I would consult with Tige, or at least do some serious research on this before you chop away.

As a potential buyer, if they cut anything on the hull that is "custom" I would walk away.

I'f you do end up chopping away, I'm curious to here what happens!
Old     (pprior)      Join Date: Jan 2012       05-05-2012, 5:17 PM Reply   
I can't imagine ever being able to sell a boat you did that to, but I'll give you props for having the cajones to even think about it!
Old     (Bam6961)      Join Date: Apr 2011       05-05-2012, 11:23 PM Reply   
what about filling the gaps? it would be less work and you wouldn't have to cut up your hull.
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Old     (Bam6961)      Join Date: Apr 2011       05-05-2012, 11:40 PM Reply   
other than that i think that cutting it straight isn't a bad idea too(it would look more natural), except you would have to re gelcoat the side vs just under the hull. depending on the qualtiy of the job, filling would be less noticeable because blending paint doesn't always turn out the way you want it too, especially when the right sun angle or shade hits it.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       05-06-2012, 2:47 AM Reply   
First, let me say that I totally dig the idea, and can't WAIT to see how it works out. I love to see Duffy's incredible appetite for experimentation and tinkering. I love to do the same, but I think Duffy's cojones hang a bit lower in this area. ;-) I have thought about doing this on the 24Ve, I guess I will wait to see how it goes with Duffy.

Second, I got to see how the Z3 went from its first prototype to its final version, and there were several steps along the way, cuts, additions, etc. The chines were one of the final things to go, however, the chines on the Z3 were not cut off, but filled in. It made a noticeable difference and interestingly one that RJ said he FELT under his feet, more than he saw.

Very cool duffy.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-06-2012, 9:25 AM Reply   
I will admit this is super scary but a good fiberglass guy can do anything and make it strong. I did consult with Tige, just like ragboy said they just filled in the area. Which makes the transom V less steep which I would rather not do. I talked to their engineer and he said do it. But know this voids your hull warranty and they don't condone cutting Tige boats etc... I didn't get a hull warranty transfer when I bought the boat. I also drilled 2- 2" holes in my boat for my crazy 3800 gph ballast pumps. So I doubt they would be happy about that! I am going to spend some real time looking at these today and come up with a plan.
Old    Nick Wiersema (Chaos)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-06-2012, 10:05 AM Reply   
Duffy, we have discussed this a bit, but I still have reservations about the actual structural integrity of filling/repairing the cut areas, etc. Cutting or grinding off the chines straight or at angle is easy, the hard part is restoring the structural integrity of the area. Obviously, protruding chines are not necessary for the wake surf boat, being left over planing features, but do they destroy the wake? Maybe, maybe not. Clearly, Tige felt strongly enough to remove them.

First, if this was just a hull, and not a buttoned-up boat with its other structural components synced, cutting the chines off would result in a significant change in the hull shape, so much so that the other components probably would not come together properly. The hull corner, in this case protruding chines are like crimps that add rigidity to the structure.

Secondly, there is no such thing a flawless repair. Once cut out, you have to over-glass so much of the area to compensate for the structural component that is now missing. It is fairly easy to repair it to the degree that is looks like nothing or very little was done (nothing but lipstick), but a repair is never as good as the originally fiberglass layup in the mold. This new fiberglass will need to be laid in on top and on the bottom of the hull. Access to the top/inside of the hull is limited in a buttoned up boat. There are countless bonding issues, just for example, the polyester resin used to build your hull is now full cured and basically in decay. Not to mention covered in gelcoat inside and out, and wax/oil all sorts of random boat crap. I visualize a grinding/sanding prep nightmare. New resin will not properly chemically bond to it. You will have a partial chemical bond at best and largely a physical bond, which would likely and predictably delaminate in time. If your fiberglass guy is willing to do all this for $800, then kudos.......

Grinding the surface and filling, to me is the logical choice. Especially since you are not really worried about adding weight.
Old    J.B. O'Neill (gnarslayer)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-06-2012, 10:43 AM Reply   
i know a guy who did this to his tige and it made a pretty big difference... the wake was wayyyy better. i cant remember his name but i rode it on lake austin once 3 years ago... it was an older green v drive tige with that tower that has racks on top. the wake was bigger than most 2012 tiges, except the z3 cause that boat is pretty dang sick
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-06-2012, 11:36 AM Reply   
Grinding and filling? Like Bam said? That sure would be easier! Lol
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-06-2012, 12:31 PM Reply   
I talked to my fiberglass guy. He loves this idea. I actually like it to. Least amount of work. Also deeps the depth the hull the same.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-06-2012, 12:32 PM Reply   
That flat area would be almost exactly 5 inches. I wonder if thats too big?
Old     (Bam6961)      Join Date: Apr 2011       05-06-2012, 9:08 PM Reply   
Idk, it will probably be similar to the tige pic you posted. You could always feather/bowed in to make a nice transition were it would become flat.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       05-06-2012, 9:30 PM Reply   
You know, there is the idea that "deeper V = better surf wake", and I think in some case that has to be true, but I def don't think that is universal. I mean, logic dictates that there is a point on any boat, where too much V would start to have negative effects. I think there is no question, that the way the corner goes in the water has much to do with the wake shape and the size/height of the wake. Exactly what that magic V number is, I have no clue. I also think, there have to be other aspects of the boat that work the V aspect that make a great wake, and some combinations are better than others. The 24V has long been known as one of the great surf boats, so it def has a good combination.

My point is that making the V deeper, may or may not be better for this boat. I would tend to think, that removing the chine by filling would be a great place to start, since you can probably remove that, and still cut later if you really wanted. With the Z3, for instance, I don't think anyone was thinking, we need a deeper V. The thought was, what can we do, to make a better surf wake. I am guessing if filling in those chines the way they did didn't make the difference it did, maybe they would have removing them. There were several changes made, that put together made the difference that made us sing.

Anyway, filling them in doesn't seem like it can hurt, and my guess is it would be better. Its also a place that air can get trapped in and just under the wake, and I have seen what that can do to a wake.
Old    Blair Neher (BlairJ)      Join Date: Jun 2010       05-07-2012, 7:18 AM Reply   
Don't sink your boat bros!
Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       05-07-2012, 8:27 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffymahoney View Post
I will admit this is super scary but a good fiberglass guy can do anything and make it strong. I did consult with Tige, just like ragboy said they just filled in the area. Which makes the transom V less steep which I would rather not do. I talked to their engineer and he said do it. But know this voids your hull warranty and they don't condone cutting Tige boats etc... I didn't get a hull warranty transfer when I bought the boat. I also drilled 2- 2" holes in my boat for my crazy 3800 gph ballast pumps. So I doubt they would be happy about that! I am going to spend some real time looking at these today and come up with a plan.
I want to hear more about these 3800 gph pumps!
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-07-2012, 12:21 PM Reply   
Haha, I have a pretty crazy ballast system to fill my custom 1880 pound surf sacs. They fill and drain in less then 4 minutes and they are silent. I used 4 rule wash down pumps. We switched from goofy to regular alot so I wanted something fast and these are the fastest. They were a pain in the as* to install but worth it once it was done.
Old    Sippi (sippi)      Join Date: Dec 2007       05-07-2012, 1:06 PM Reply   
geez, did you get those from the same place those crab boats on deadliest catch get there tank pumps at??
Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       05-07-2012, 1:08 PM Reply   
Could you put up some install pics? Or is there already a thread about it? Link?
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-07-2012, 1:29 PM Reply   
You can buy the pumps from most boat sites. Here are a couple of install pics. I don't mind doing crazy stuff as long as it turns out well. I used 1.5" hose that I ran to Y's and T's then made them 1" in and out of the sac. Works great.
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Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       05-07-2012, 1:58 PM Reply   
Thanks!
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-08-2012, 2:59 PM Reply   
well you guys successfully scared me out of this!
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       05-08-2012, 4:34 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffymahoney View Post
well you guys successfully scared me out of this!
I thought it was a little risky, but I really wanted to see you give it a go. I do think that it would make it very hard to sell the boat.
Old    9Drozd            05-08-2012, 10:30 PM Reply   
Looking at what you would be doing, It would definitely change the wave as that is part of the running surface of the boat. However it probably would not help the boat at all as far as handling and lifting the boat out of the water. You would definitely be ripping up the floor to do the fiberglass work and I doubt you would want to do that. Theres alot of work that goes along with it thats hard to justify if it actually doesn't help the boat. What you would have to do is make a running plug out of the boat you have now and make adjustments to the hull with fiberglass and filler till you get it right. Then make a mold off of your plug. I like that there are other people out there besides me that have thought about doing stuff like this but with me not being in the boat manufacturing business and the cost of materials right now, I cant justify actually following through with it.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-09-2012, 9:26 AM Reply   
I would love to design a boat from scratch just for surfing. Now that would be fun!
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       05-09-2012, 11:59 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffymahoney View Post
I would love to design a boat from scratch just for surfing. Now that would be fun!
That is my goal. Working on my ME degree right now. Look into Computational Fluid Dynamics software, CRAZY stuff. Wanted to design boat hulls since I was a kid!
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-19-2012, 2:44 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffymahoney View Post
well you guys successfully scared me out of this!
Oh bummer, I was tuning in and hoping to see a tusnami going on.....

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