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Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       04-26-2012, 6:18 PM Reply   
I sold my 2001 Moomba Mobius, and now i'm itching to buy a new boat.

Both the Epic 21V & Axis A20 are around 47k brand new.

I'm open to other suggestions such as a used Mastercraft or Super Air, but mostly want something new.

Last edited by kronoss; 04-26-2012 at 6:21 PM. Reason: typo
Old    Bob (Reez)      Join Date: Mar 2010       04-26-2012, 6:20 PM Reply   
I cant speak on the epic but ive heard good things. I ride my buddies axis a20 and its pretty cool. He didnt get the plug and play which i would highly recommend. The a20 wake is pretty wide.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       04-26-2012, 6:43 PM Reply   
I think if you've already owned a boat you will know what your looking for in a boat. I'm not familiar with the EPIC,but i've heard they have a monster wake.The Axis makes a excellent wake ,but i think the A22 is better in their line.Good luck and make sure you demo both.
Old    Nick (bushtree)      Join Date: Jul 2005       04-26-2012, 6:48 PM Reply   
whats your max budget? 47k ? 55k opens you up to a handful of brand new boats..
Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       04-26-2012, 6:53 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bushtree View Post
whats your max budget? 47k ? 55k opens you up to a handful of brand new boats..
I'm open to the best bang for the buck type, so yes 55k is also an option.

I am most interested in reliability and a good wake for wakeboarding and wakesurfing.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       04-26-2012, 6:58 PM Reply   
If 55 consider Axis A22, MB 21,Tige RZR ,Supra 21v and i'm sure there's more.
Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       04-26-2012, 7:00 PM Reply   
are you guys saying to stay away from Epic21V or Axis A20 ?

If you go 22,23 foot, is there a noticeable difference in wake size ?
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       04-26-2012, 7:35 PM Reply   
I dont' see the point of a 20' boat unless you are space limited. If are even remotely considering 22 or 23 foot boat, why settle for an A20?

And after what we just read about Epic, I wouldn't touch one. Those boats are a tough proposition when it comes to resale. And even their biggest fan wasn't too complimentary of the quality or the service.

Axis A22 -or- MB TWB 23 would be my choices if you want to stick with new. Both can be had in the mid-to-high $50's.
Old    Zach Jones (Prozachj)      Join Date: Sep 2011       04-26-2012, 7:43 PM Reply   
I've ridden the A20, and the Epic 23V but not the 21.

The A20 is a great boat. I rode on it for the first time last weekend. I enjoyed the interior of the boat and the wake is medium wide and decently sized with only stock balast and the wedge. Great shape, clean and firm. Add about 1500lbs and you'll have a monster.

The 23V is my favorite wake of all time. You can create any wake you want with this boat. If you want a monster wake that goes straight up with ridiculous pop you can have that, or if you prefer you can only fill about 3/4 and still have a large wake that is a bit more forgiving. Either way it always encourages me to try something insane.

Last edited by Prozachj; 04-26-2012 at 7:44 PM. Reason: spelling
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       04-26-2012, 7:53 PM Reply   
probably gonna get flamed for this but you may be able to grab tige z1 or supra 21v in that 55k range as well
Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       04-26-2012, 7:58 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
I dont' see the point of a 20' boat unless you are space limited. If are even remotely considering 22 or 23 foot boat, why settle for an A20? .
Why not settle for a 20ft ?

1. I usually never have more than 5 or 6 on my boat.
2. I can store it in the garage.
3. Price, about ~5-10k cheaper.
4. Somewhat better gas mileage.

What is the value of getting a bigger boat? Just carry more people ? (please correct me if im wrong)


Also, is there any reason i should stay away from epic ? You guys are posting a lot of alternatives to it (MB,Supra,Tige, etc) but not telling me why they are better. Do they have a bigger wake, better build quality, better resale value, better reliability, or just your personal preference ?

Last edited by kronoss; 04-26-2012 at 8:01 PM.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       04-26-2012, 8:15 PM Reply   
i dont think were posting alternatives to it because we think you should beware, just that for a few k more you get a variety of boats to check out

i would go with the a20, we were in a similar boat but with a tige r20 rather than the epic. we chose the tige, but im not going to turn this into a "buy a tige" thread.

were more than happy with our 20 footer. so dont be concerned unless youre trying to build a pro level wake.

ive seen an epic and heard some things about it. they were negative, but, that when its time to ride and you put ballast in the boat that it turns into an absolute monster

Last edited by simplej; 04-26-2012 at 8:24 PM.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       04-26-2012, 8:46 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronoss View Post
Why not settle for a 20ft ?

1. I usually never have more than 5 or 6 on my boat.
2. I can store it in the garage.
3. Price, about ~5-10k cheaper.
4. Somewhat better gas mileage.

What is the value of getting a bigger boat? Just carry more people ? (please correct me if im wrong)


Also, is there any reason i should stay away from epic ? You guys are posting a lot of alternatives to it (MB,Supra,Tige, etc) but not telling me why they are better. Do they have a bigger wake, better build quality, better resale value, better reliability, or just your personal preference ?
Look, if you want a 20 foot boat, be my guest. No need to justify to any of us. All I was saying is that if you are not space constrained, I didn't understand the attraction to a 20 foot boat. Since you never mentioned a space constraint and openly asked about 22-23 foot boats, I figured you were open to the idea. Didn't you also ask for alternatives to the boats in your first post? Why are you surprised that folks on WW are giving exactly what you asked for?

My reasons for going a little bigger are simple...
  • In almost every case, the 20' version of a boat provides a nice wake, but nonetheless inferior to the 21-22 foot boats in the same line (VTX vs. VLX, RZR vs. RZ2, X-2 vs. X-15, 20V vs. 21V, A20 vs. A22, etc.). I'm not an engineer so I don't know why this is the case. I just know what I read.
  • Also, I have noticed that most people tend to go bigger over time, not smaller. Your crew might grow, and even if it stays at 5-6, the extra room/storage is nice.
  • If you are going to surf, the larger boats tend to make better, longer waves.
  • Do you really think you are going to notice a fuel economy difference on any of these boats...?

As for Epic, I told you straight up why I wouldn't get one... resale value. The other reason why I would shy away is what I read in this thread http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=792953. I think you have better options in the $50K range, than a small, obscure, unknown brand with no dealer network. Just my opinion. YMMV.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       04-26-2012, 9:14 PM Reply   
Bigger boats = more storage = more space for (hidden) ballast.....which I think is definitely under rated. Bags on the floor get to be a hassle when its not just you and your buddy out to ride.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       04-26-2012, 10:09 PM Reply   
between those 2....

A20 all the way. Even though its only been a year or two for the A20, it is a malibu built boat, and the wake is tried and true. With plug n play over stock ballast and the wedge, you will have a banging wake.

I say the A20 because I know NOTHING about the Epic 21v, other than it apparently exists. I have not seen one in person, let alone ride or drive one. I have not heard anyone on WW talking about their experiences on one (it is very possible that they have, but it is few and far between), and the wake and wave is unknown.

Can't beat the wake, seating, ballast and malibu backing of the Axis for the price.

If fitting your boat in your garage is a must and you are willing to spend $55k, then measure your garage and post it, these guys on here will be able to get you exact measurements of almost any boat you can get for $55k within a couple days.
Old    Tyler Smith (smitty1258)      Join Date: Jun 2009       04-27-2012, 6:38 AM Reply   
I would say the 21v or
MB
https://onlyinboards.com/Details.aspx?ID=32700
Old    Scott R (ScottR)      Join Date: Aug 2011       04-27-2012, 6:44 AM Reply   
Having owned two 23V's as most know I have never seen or ridden a 21v. So, if I am being honest I can't say on the 21v wake. However, if you have read my thread you will get an idea of what you are getting. I still have lots of pictures of my 23v's if you would like me to point out a few things.

I agree that 55k opens the doors up a bit. If you would like to talk further hit me up. I am not stealing or bashing on this thread, but my choice of those two would be the axis....and I have owned 2 Epic's. my 2 cents
Old    Chris Walker (redsupralaunch)      Join Date: Aug 2002       04-27-2012, 6:53 AM Reply   
We used the Epic 21V last year at USA Nationals. 3200lbs ballast system all hidden under floor and drives great. Very impressive.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       04-27-2012, 7:29 AM Reply   
My friend Matt, who is a rep at Axis, owned an A20 for a few seasons. We both loved the wake behind that boat. The A20 is huge for a 20 footer. It throws a great wake. It is a bit wide, but you get used to it quick. If you are concerned about keeping your boat inside your garage, the A20 is a great choice. To be perfectly honest, if your space allows for two more feet, you get a good bit more room out of an A22 for not a whole lot more coin. Plus, IMO, the wake behind the A22 is slightly better.
Old    Michael ImObersteg (Michael)      Join Date: Mar 2010       04-27-2012, 8:23 AM Reply   
Im with Chattwake, Go with the 22 footer if you have the space... I guess what size wake do you like? A large wake to one rider may be small to another.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       04-27-2012, 8:30 AM Reply   
If I was in the market for a new wakeboat for somewhere in the 50-55k range the 21 tomcat or 21TWB would be at the very top of my list.

Here is why:
-better fit and finish then Axis, Moomba or Epic
-large ballast that fills in a minute that gives one of the best wakes around without adding extra balast. Some add a few hundred up in the bow.
-way more interior seating then any other 21' and probably more then most 22' boats on the market
-Comes really, really well equipped as base boat. Comes with tower, swivel racks, bimini, cover, tower mirro arm, GPS PP, depth gauge, pop up cleats, SS rubrail, bow fillin cushion, 1800 pounds of quick fil ballast, Wetsounds system with sub and amp. Your only options really are trim tab, some sort of special interior lighting, transom underwater lights, heated seat and tower speakers.
-Price, these are consistantly priced new in the 50-55k range for that base boat. That should be about at the bottom of the price scale for any other boat including Mobius LSV, Outback V(equipped similar), Supra 21v(aren't these in teh 60's?), Axis A20 or A22, etc...

Unless you really don't like the looks or the dealer where you live the value of the MB is unbeatable.
Old    TJ (Houstonshark)      Join Date: Jan 2011       04-27-2012, 8:46 AM Reply   
What dealers are close to you. IMO the dealer makes up at least 25% of the decision. We were pretty much in the same 'boat' so to speak 2 years ago when we started looking at boats. I wanted to be under $50k and we looked at all the usual suspects mentioned above.

I liked the A20/A22 but my wife didn't. She didn't think the interior, especially the bow was deep enough and wasn't a fan of the fit & finish (which I'm sure has improved since then). We looked at the Tige R20 and she and I both thought it just seemed too cheaply done for a ~$50k boat.

We ended up stretching our budget a bit and got a 2012 Tige RZR and couldn't be happier. I do wish we had the room at our house for a 22' boat but we don't right now. We did demo a Mastercraft X2 and while it was nice it didn't handle as well as the Tige and the surf wake with stock ballast was not even close to the RZR.

Again though, I think the dealer plays a big role in the decision.
Old    Jeremy G (Giesh164)      Join Date: Mar 2012       04-27-2012, 9:01 AM Reply   
I've got an '11 a20 and couldn't be happier! We put 3500 lbs in it plus the wedge and the wake is hudge and clean! If your looking for a super surf wave, this might not be the boat for you. We can surf behind it, but it's nothing like my buddys sunspot 22v. For wakeboarding this boat is sick! Especially for the price.
Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       04-27-2012, 9:20 AM Reply   
How is the wakesurf on the MB compared to other boats ?
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       04-27-2012, 9:21 AM Reply   
its supposed to be excellent.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       04-27-2012, 9:33 AM Reply   
Suppose to be pretty good stock and really good if you add surf sacks. From what people have said it is going to be jsut as good if not better then anyting else stock.

I also forgot to mention that the MB has a deeper V that runs all the way to the rear so should ride better in rough water. If it was me buying an MB the only option I would really make sure to get would be the trim tab. It will help get on plane if you have a ton of peopel or weight in it, help you fine tune the wake for wakeboarding and surfing as well as keep the bow down when cruising for a better ride. I think the trim tab is a good option/feature for any wakeboat.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       04-27-2012, 10:01 AM Reply   
Stock surf wave on MB TWB 21. I think I was going 12mph with 5-6 people in the boat.

Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       04-27-2012, 10:13 AM Reply   
I definitely suggest you demo anything before you buy. Also, I agree with the comment that your local dealer should factor heavily into the equation.
Old    Brett B. (Brett_B)      Join Date: Sep 2010       04-27-2012, 11:01 AM Reply   
Between those two I would go with the Axis, Malibu is just a more established company. I have ridden behind my friends A20, and with the plug-n-play ballast the wake was a monstor. It's also completely scaleable and stays clean.

Being able to store your boat in your garage is a huge deal which really drove my purchase decision. It will help maintain the value of the boat since it won't get nearly as much sun exposure or mold/mildew from always being outside/covered. If you are looking for a new boat on a budget, and you need to stay in the 20ft range to fit in your garage, then I think the A20 would be a great choice.

This is the boat we rode behind and spent a weekend hanging out on, it's currently for sale:

http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/...-package-deal/

Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       04-27-2012, 1:22 PM Reply   
ok i guess epic is out the door for me now.

Its between Axis & MB (the pic that DBC posted, shows an amazing clean wake, which i love)

question, i really don't like the MB pickle fork look, its too much, is there any difference between the Tomcat and B52 other than the pickle fork look ?

Also, how do they handle in the choppy water compared to a regular bowrider i/o, i know my moomba was very bad at that, if the wind was over 10mph, i would not even go out.

Last edited by kronoss; 04-27-2012 at 1:30 PM.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       04-27-2012, 1:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronoss View Post
ok i guess epic is out the door for me now.

Its between Axis & MB (the pic that DBC posted, shows an amazing clean wake, which i love)

question, i really don't like the MB pickle fork look, its too much, is there any difference between the Tomcat and B52 other than the pickle fork look ?

Also, how do they handle in the choppy water compared to a regular bowrider i/o, i know my moomba was very bad at that, if the wind was over 10mph, i would not even go out.
Both the F21 and B52 have the same exact hull and dimensions. The only difference is the bow. I have had both and they are the same. Just be sure to get one with the cavitation plate (aka trim tab).

At 21' even it should still fit in your garage. If not, A20 is good option as I agree that garage storage is an important factor. I would never buy a boat I couldn't store at home. How deep is your garage? Is A22 even an option??

Rough water ride is good on the MB due to the deep v shape of the hull. Can't speak to the A20 but maybe Chatt knows.
Old    Brian Tison (fuzzball147)      Join Date: Apr 2010       04-27-2012, 2:02 PM Reply   
You need to go test drive them and see which ones you like. Like the post above, a good dealer to work with is a big factor. I have a 23V and absolutely love it. My buddy has a 21V and it's an awesome boat. You have to get in them and see which one YOU think will be right for your purposes. You're in a price range where you have a ton of choices. As far as Epic, I have never had a problem, there is more room than you can believe, and you can make the wake whatever you want.
Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       04-27-2012, 7:12 PM Reply   
anyone know the difference between Axis A22 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 ?
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       04-27-2012, 8:12 PM Reply   
Mainly cosmetic.

2010 upgraded to a little thicker vinyl from 2009.
2011 changed the bow cushions to 4 small cushions instead of 2 large. added 1 support bracket on each chillax seat. transom change, added step/seat with cup holders, very cool.
2012 was the most changes: swim step shape and pad material and design are different. Dropped MTX and went with Alpine as a base stereo and Wetsounds as upgrade. Glove box change. Passenger door hinge location change. Tower has hinge on bottom end of support brace for quicker collapse. More prop choices. Optional 2nd turning fin (IMO you don't need that in an Axis, but if you get it, you will out turn any 22 footer with ease). Driver kick panel is "sub woofer ready". I THINK that ballast hoses increased to 1" (ask chattwake about this, he just ordered a 2012), maybe that is malibu boats only.

I also think that every year there were more options offered by the dealer, but if you are buying used, then that doesn't really matter.
Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       04-27-2012, 8:22 PM Reply   
Thanks for the info Johnny, it really helps.
Old    Andrew"Jet"Mitchell (andrewjet)      Join Date: Jan 2003       04-28-2012, 6:14 AM Reply   
Well I wont tell our supra buddies your looking at other boats. lol. I went over the tomcat at the boat show this year and was impressed!! I like the Tom Cat a lot! BUT! The axis 20 or 22 is a little better and the way to go for me. No, its NOT the most pimped out boat out there, who cares, It doesnt have the BEST interior...but Its not made for that. Its for wakeboarders!! Pull it out of the garage go wakeboarding for 2- hrs and come home and throw it in the garage. There,,done! A lot of people have to load up the truck, drive to the storage place ($1200-$1500 yr) load the boat and then go down to the lake and ride and then do everything again. Its the whole day and can take the fun out of going sometimes. Yes, I love the 24's too on drinking days or nights but Im a true soul rider and nothing is better than wakboarding. The axis is made for true wakeboarders and not the blingers! It does everything you want it to do and still has a great surf wave. You cant go wrong with either one. I think the tomcat has more chrome goodies and a better interior but I havent seen a better boat made for wakeboarders that the axis. The axis also has a very CLEAN wake from 15-20 mph where most riders ride. I say close your eyes and pick. You cant go wrong. Good luck man. I will be right behind you after I sell mine.
Old    Victor Imondi (imondi)      Join Date: Aug 2010       04-28-2012, 6:26 AM Reply   
I have an A22 and it fits in my standard 23 foot deep 2 car garage. Something to think about if your garage is that big!
Old    Nick (bushtree)      Join Date: Jul 2005       04-28-2012, 9:36 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewjet View Post
Well I wont tell our supra buddies your looking at other boats. lol. I went over the tomcat at the boat show this year and was impressed!! I like the Tom Cat a lot! BUT! The axis 20 or 22 is a little better and the way to go for me. No, its NOT the most pimped out boat out there, who cares, It doesnt have the BEST interior...but Its not made for that. Its for wakeboarders!! Pull it out of the garage go wakeboarding for 2- hrs and come home and throw it in the garage. There,,done! A lot of people have to load up the truck, drive to the storage place ($1200-$1500 yr) load the boat and then go down to the lake and ride and then do everything again. Its the whole day and can take the fun out of going sometimes. Yes, I love the 24's too on drinking days or nights but Im a true soul rider and nothing is better than wakboarding. The axis is made for true wakeboarders and not the blingers! It does everything you want it to do and still has a great surf wave. You cant go wrong with either one. I think the tomcat has more chrome goodies and a better interior but I havent seen a better boat made for wakeboarders that the axis. The axis also has a very CLEAN wake from 15-20 mph where most riders ride. I say close your eyes and pick. You cant go wrong. Good luck man. I will be right behind you after I sell mine.

I don't know many people riding between 15-20mph
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       04-28-2012, 11:39 AM Reply   
^^^ Maybe he meant beginners, little kids, etc.

My little guy loves 17 mph.

Old    Fred (olmoomba)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-01-2012, 1:41 PM Reply   
Maybe I'm a little late to the party. I own an EPIC 23V and have since 2007, original owner since new. I just read that "other" post. I am pretty sure there are 2 sides to the story here. I have never had an issue with EPIC customer service but then again I don't go them 3 yrs in a row asking for bottom dollar pricing either.

I have also read other recommendations here.

EPIC does build boats with their fast fill (hopefully I worded that right) fills and drains in a minute. The one piece deck and integrated ballast under the floor is a major benefit to me and my family of 5 and friends. The vector steering handles like a Direct Drive, you will appreciate this when even at 1/2 ballast.

The wake on the 21V is slightly less aggressive and more forgiving than the 23V. I cannot directly compare to the Axis as I have only seen them in pictures, same with the MB's.

Try this out, rather than go off of one person's butt hurt testimony check them out for yourself and make a truly educated decision.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       05-01-2012, 1:51 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by olmoomba View Post
Maybe I'm a little late to the party. I own an EPIC 23V and have since 2007, original owner since new. I just read that "other" post. I am pretty sure there are 2 sides to the story here. I have never had an issue with EPIC customer service but then again I don't go them 3 yrs in a row asking for bottom dollar pricing either.

I have also read other recommendations here.

EPIC does build boats with their fast fill (hopefully I worded that right) fills and drains in a minute. The one piece deck and integrated ballast under the floor is a major benefit to me and my family of 5 and friends. The vector steering handles like a Direct Drive, you will appreciate this when even at 1/2 ballast.

The wake on the 21V is slightly less aggressive and more forgiving than the 23V. I cannot directly compare to the Axis as I have only seen them in pictures, same with the MB's.

Try this out, rather than go off of one person's butt hurt testimony check them out for yourself and make a truly educated decision.

Where is the popcorn picture?
Old    Andrew"Jet"Mitchell (andrewjet)      Join Date: Jan 2003       05-01-2012, 3:06 PM Reply   
I have to back up Fred hear on epic boats quality and service. I felt bad afterwards the other day when I spoke and didnt touch on what I thought about the epic boats. I really like the epics and how they are built and I didnt say anything becuase I was excited to tell all of you about the new Tomcat and the Axis. For the last 2-boat shows I have sat in the epic's boat and have gone over everything like a freaked out boat owner does. And Gary?? the owner has talked with me for hours, very nice guy and has even givin me FREE prop advise that no else could figure out. (my prop was cupped to much). A lot of boats are put together but you can tell that epic's are engineered!! There is a difference. Lets take a look at something as lil as a rear engine hatch hinge. Sounds simple.. $3 part right. Including my boat its a flat hinge with 6-8 screws in it and made of SS. Now after all of that cusion weight, leaning on it and opening and shutting that hatch a million times the screws start coming loose...comon problem. now take a look at the epic hinge and you will be amazed!! Its like a aircraft quality double hinge!! NO COMPARISON!! That means that THOUGHT and egineering was put into something that no really pays any attention to except wierd people like me. Wheres my medicine? Now that other side to that coin is that like some boat mfr's will do like one-off hinge that ends up costing $289eax2=$578 and then the boat price is $118k! A good engineer wants something over the top tuff, yet inexpensive and simple. KISS..keep it simple stupid!! Thats what I like and thats what I like about epic. Guys, If you close your eyes and point you will hit a good boat and there are a lot of great built boats out there, dont worry about which one is best find the one YOU like and you win!! And who knows more about you? Nobody..buy what you like.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       05-01-2012, 7:07 PM Reply   
Glad you like Epic, I gave them a look over at the show and was curious to see if the pure vert was similar to a MB, I let my hand touch the floor on the back side of it and got glass stuck in it, then I was looking into the ballast ports and a kid got on the platform and it sagged down and hit me on the head because they do not have any brackets, just upward screws so removing to put into a garage is not an option. I had to get away from it, 5 min and my hand was bleeding and my head hurt, hope the wakes are good
Old    J.B. O'Neill (gnarslayer)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-01-2012, 9:13 PM Reply   
im gonna say go with a mb tomcat f21

they are super sick!

vinyl is great
standard dash w/o useless lcd screens
pumpless ballast system
great stock wake, even better sacked out
looks super sick
built very well
graphic is built into the fiberglass (no vinyl decals)

i feel that the MB is the best bang for the buck right now over every brand
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       05-03-2012, 2:28 PM Reply   
waited for a while to chime in here as Scott has left the Epic community ;-) (btw congrats to selling yours finally - would love to see the picture of the wrap the new owner has put on). I'm prolly not as enthusiastic as Scott is but I have my 2nd Epic now - this one is a 2011 23V - the brown one which has been part of another thread.

I honestly don't think that the wake is a big difference between the 21V and the 23V but a few other things you may want to consider beyond test driving whatever makes the short list. The 23V doesn't fit into a garage less than 25 ft and then it might still be tight after folding the trailer tongue in. I knew that as I had one before but having a garage that long is not always common. One good thing is that the tower collapses easily - so if you have an 8 ft garage door - you will get it in because from bottom to top you're at 7'8". That does require to over-collapse the tower but it works. Last but not least - I have the 8.1 and yes it isn't that easy on gas - but I have to say - boat driving ain't cheap in the first place so a gallon more or less shouldn't break the bank. What I'm though getting at is this: The 47K price you mention is bare (it's actually 50K as base):

Mercury 8.2L 370HP Engine 10,580.00
Swivel Board Racks $360.00
GPS Smart Tow Cruise Control $1,000.00
Tower Mounted Mirror $201.00
Three Outlet Heater with Extendable Tubes $370.00
Premium Tight Fit Travel Cover $600.00
Audio “Pro Edition” $2,268.00
Interior LED Lighting blue $210.00
Bimini Top $862.00
Surf Trim Tabs $846 Pair
Trailer, Duel Axle $3,990.00

So the few things you probably want is the GPS smart tow (perfect pass whatever), a mirror and the board racks and most likely the trailer. So that adds a bit to the math you initially made and I'm not sure where the Axis will come in.

I can't speak for the Axis in particular - but I have to say that my buddies MC is 'nicer' looking - the Epic just doesn't have that 'plush' feeling to it - more functional etc. I'm okay with it (also have 3 dogs so the dirt is always there). The fast fill and not sacrificing the storage compartments with sacs is a very nice feature - they do fill in about a minute but I'm already seeing the DNR on my case because of the possibility of carrying invasive species from lake to lake - a pump with mesh filter won't get you into that kind of trouble. However flushing them with hot water is pretty easy (DNR requires in MN to flush them with 120 degree hot water for 2 minutes) - because I can just open the valve and put the hose in and I have to say that the lakes need to be protected - it's just too easy to infest another lake.

So all that said - you may not get it for 47K except you really get a huge discount (good for you) but you get a solid and nice boat with likely more ballast than anyone ever needs. From a surfing perspective it is what most people already said. Huge but pretty steep wake and needs to be adjusted with the trim tab. With an older Epic you may need to go in circles - otherwise won't work. My new one has also the surf trim tabs and they make the wake much nicer (sorry no pictures yet - was only out once and still dialing in the wake etc.). The surf tabs also help to adjust the wake when people/weight or not evenly distributed - that's something I really like because it just takes a quick flip and you compensate for the weight imbalance. However I also have to say that other boats aren't as finicky to get a clean wake all the way 80 feet out - so somebody else has to tell you that about the Axis as I can't answer that one.

So good luck finding your new ride - it will be awesome no matter which brand you're going to pick! But if you look for a dealer for an Epic - Chad Williams from Cuttingedge in New Mexico is a good guy to talk to ... bought mine there despite living in Minnesota and it was smooth as it can be.
Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       05-07-2012, 6:12 AM Reply   
I test drove the epic 23v yesterday. And honestly it's a wake machine beast.

Pluses:
Wakes are huge, even though the water was rough, it was still bigger than my friends 23 wakestter with ballast and wedge down.
Wakes are not just rampy like the moomba, they are big wide and rampy, feels like a combination of a moomba and a wakestter.(good for the knees, and shoots u up in the air)
Surf wakes are very potent, with just stock ballast.
Vinyl is pretty good
Dual rudder system is AMAZING, this thing can do a 360 in a 35 ft wide lake almost.
Ballast is amazing also, quick fill and quick empty
Handles chop very well

Minuses:
Transom speakers do get wet when stopping, sound gets blurry for a few seconds on while water is on them.
Foam inside the seats is very soft and has a cheap feel to it, makes the vinyl look cheap when it's not.
While seadek floors feel very good, I can't imagine them holding up 5-10 years down the road.


Overall I really liked it. next up, I'm going to go test drive the axis also
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       05-07-2012, 6:36 AM Reply   
When you test drive that Axis, make sure it has the plug n play bags in it, or bring some sacs with you, so you can see the true potential of that wake. At minimum, I'd put a 400 in each rear hatch, an 1000lb bow triangle in the front, and drop the wedge. If the boat has the front pnp bag installed, you won't need the bow sac.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       05-07-2012, 6:37 AM Reply   
Also, ask what prop is on the boat, the oj cinco does a really good job with the standard motor.
Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       05-07-2012, 7:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake View Post
When you test drive that Axis, make sure it has the plug n play bags in it, or bring some sacs with you, so you can see the true potential of that wake. At minimum, I'd put a 400 in each rear hatch, an 1000lb bow triangle in the front, and drop the wedge. If the boat has the front pnp bag installed, you won't need the bow sac.
I don't really have the sacks, but i will ask the dealer if they do. I have sacks, but they are the launchpad style plugs, not the same as flyhigh.
Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-07-2012, 7:42 AM Reply   
Kronos I was in the same position as you two years ago. I was looking at axis, epic, centurion, and mb. I have to say that I love the overall axis style an the wake is amazing with the plug and play system. Their interior though really turned me off on the axis. Everything seemed of lesser quality than epic, centurion, and mb. It had a real plasticky feel to it not as solid as the others. I really wasn't as impressed with epic as you were but it's probably cause the do boats had all sorts of problems. The rudders were not inline and the speed control was not functioning properly. Centurion is one solid boat but it was out of my price range. I live in Houston an it was really hard for me to demo an mb, but Mike made it happen I had to drive four hours away to do so. Whenever I first stepped in the boat I could see why there was so much hype over the boat. I was especially find of the purevert ballast system. I'm goofy footed and my friends are all regulars. So when surfing it was no big deal to go from one side to the other in less than five minutes. The wakeboard wake is amazing too stock an if you do add weight to it it only gets better. I ended up with Mb and could not be happier. I you do end up going with mb make sure you get the wake plate(trim tab). Good luck on your search can't wait to see your new ride whichever it may be!
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       05-07-2012, 8:37 AM Reply   
E - I'm not sure if you demo'd a '11 or '12, but I have noticed some nice interior improvements with my '12 A22 over my '11. That being said, there is no doubt that the newer MB's have a super plush interior!
Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       05-08-2012, 3:13 PM Reply   
Axis interior looked fine in the 2012 version i looked at, while it was at the boat show. It seemed as good as an 08 wakesetter.

Im not sure if there is any MB dealer anywhere in florida, and they are out of my price range, dont really want to pay 60k for a boat.
Old    Daniel Balke (CaNuHEARme)      Join Date: Jan 2012       05-10-2012, 10:18 AM Reply   
ive got a 2012 epic 21v and will wouldnt change to another. the boat is amazing im by far not a pro at surf or wakeboard but its awesome and the setup and the wake is both just as nice as my friends xstar. bang for the buck id go epic i was gonna buy an axis and the base model one was as much as the epic loaded. just a opinion. and i bought mine to load with audio so cause thats what i do for a living. and the transom and tower gave me plenty of room to work.
Old    Daniel Balke (CaNuHEARme)      Join Date: Jan 2012       05-10-2012, 10:22 AM Reply   
and here a few a pics of mine
Attached Images
  
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       05-10-2012, 10:25 AM Reply   
x2 with chat on the OJ cinco prop if you go with the axis 335 motor. It is a great match up, quiet, smooth, lower rpms than my OJ core prop but almost as much hole shot.

If you demo, bring sacks and pumps so you can ride the boat stock, then slammed.
Old    Jeremy Byrom (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       05-10-2012, 11:40 AM Reply   
could a lip piece be made to install just bellow the speakers on the back of the Epics to deflect the water when slowing quickly so as to better keep the speakers from the water? would this work? or anyone actually done it?
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       05-11-2012, 10:55 AM Reply   
The picture above with the middle 'lip' is not the current setup nor is the swim platform (see below the 2011/2012 setup). A lip isn't really going to help you because if you really want to protect the speakers then you would have to put something up in front of all the speakers which then pretty much distorts the sound (Epic had that back in 2007 and abandoned it). I was out yesterday and it's not like you're getting hit by a tsunami when you stop the boat - there might be occasions that you get some water up but I don't think that's something you need to worry about. It's not like the rider behind the boat will enjoy perfect sound etc. as someone else posted earlier - you're riding at 20+ mph and you hear water/wind etc. and still can figure out that there's water on the speaker distorting the sound? Anyway don't want to pick on people but you have 6 more speakers inside the boat and they won't get flooded and do a pretty good job together with the rest of the wetsound system.
Attached Images
 
Old    kx250frider617            05-11-2012, 11:18 AM Reply   
We ride is salt water and the speakers back there seam like the worst idea. Good concept but not too practical in my situation.
Old    Greg S (roomservice)      Join Date: Dec 2006       05-11-2012, 12:02 PM Reply   
Just for the record, the speakers getting wet is certainly a valid concern, however, there has not been one warranty claim due to water hitting the speakers. We have had a speaker terminal break off or not work, that sort of thing, but not once due to water damage. I think most would be surprised how little water hits them.
Old    Fred (fredlap)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-11-2012, 2:03 PM Reply   
epic 23v, half ballast (filled in 30 sec), 23,2mph
Attached Images
 
Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       05-11-2012, 11:04 PM Reply   
After Demoing the axis, here is my 2c

Wake size with stock ballast + wedge is a joke for the year 2012 (with pnp supposedly its amazing though), it was the same size as my 2001 Moomba Mobius with just 500 lbs of standard ballast.
Interior, was very nice, it was a lot more roomy compared to the epic.


So, i kinda decided to go with epic. But the problem is the $$$.
Boat + Trailer + Freight + options , brings to to be the same price as a damn Mastercraft X-2.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       05-12-2012, 1:07 AM Reply   
Was that the A20 or A22?
Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       05-12-2012, 6:27 AM Reply   
A22
Old    Fred (fredlap)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-12-2012, 6:42 AM Reply   
One of my friend wanted a Axis cause of the look of the boat and what eard about it. After test driving and riding, he found the boat great but he hate the wake ( no p'n p). Flat, flat, flat he said! And like me, he's tired to fill fat sac or wait 20 minutes to fill the standart ballast + the p'n p! He tried a MB B52 21 ft and just loved it! He bought a new one for around 50k or a bit more! He loved everything about his new boat and doesn't regret his move! Sick wake feelsike a in between the Xstar and the Epic, gravity ballast, zero off, PCM motor, sick interior, etc. BEST BOAT FOR THE $$$ I think!!! But I sill prefer Epic cause the wake is almost my only priority!!! Lol
Old    Fred (fredlap)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-12-2012, 6:43 AM Reply   
* feels like
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       05-12-2012, 7:44 AM Reply   
if you want to stay under $60K, sounds like you need to demo MB and Axis again (this time with PnP).

The wake in that Epic pick above looks pretty mean. But I don't understand the pricing if it's anywhere near MC pricing (even X2 pricing). That's ridiculous for a relatively unknown brand. One other thing... I have never understood the point of the transom speakers. Even if they don't get wet - and I have a hard time believing that - they just look hokey... like some kind of gimmick. They serve no functional purpose when you consider all the amazing tower setups that are available and will sound better than a bunch of interior speakers (which is what those are).
Old    Fred (fredlap)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-12-2012, 8:12 AM Reply   
False! Epic sound system is sick! It does get wet if you drive like a novice but it doesn't matter. Plus, it's so much in your face when you surf... it sound awesome! You can hear it too when wakeboarding if it's not windy... Pretty cool! You can put all the sound to the rear wich is good when the driver and passengers don't want to ear it loud. And I don't knock my head on the tower speakers anymore!
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       05-12-2012, 8:26 AM Reply   
Whelp, this is why I suggested you bring sacs. There is a pnp option for a reason. The a22 wake, with the pnp bags, is money. Its like demoing a 2004-2011 xstar with factory ballast. It just doesn't do the boat justice. However, if you don't want to have to wait for a lot of ballast to fill, that's a valid concern. Trust me though, an a22 with a few k in weight, produces a killer wake.

Last edited by chattwake; 05-12-2012 at 8:33 AM.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       05-12-2012, 8:33 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
I have never understood the point of the transom speakers. Even if they don't get wet - and I have a hard time believing that - they just look hokey... like some kind of gimmick. They serve no functional purpose when you consider all the amazing tower setups that are available and will sound better than a bunch of interior speakers (which is what those are).
Have you driven or ridden behind one? You can turn on the transom speakers for the rider and the people in the boat don't get blasted out and you don't have 200lbs hanging from your tower. They do get wet, it's a boat, they are marine speakers. The stereo, the speakers, all of the electronics are rated to get wet because...it's a boat and boats are in the water!
Old    Jeremy Byrom (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       05-12-2012, 9:03 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredlap View Post
False! Epic sound system is sick! It does get wet if you drive like a novice but it doesn't matter. Plus, it's so much in your face when you surf... it sound awesome! You can hear it too when wakeboarding if it's not windy... Pretty cool! You can put all the sound to the rear wich is good when the driver and passengers don't want to ear it loud. And I don't knock my head on the tower speakers anymore!
This is one of the reasons epic is my dream boat. closest i have experienced one is sitting in one in a parking lot.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       05-12-2012, 10:37 AM Reply   
kronos. I had the same experience as you when I demoed the A22 for the first time. As short as possible: I wanted the A22 because of the Malibu VLX, super similar wake (i was told) but for 20k less. So I test drove it, and it handles amazing for a 22 foot boat and felt just like the VLX in everyday, throttle, steering feedback, turning...etc. We had 3/4 fuel tank, 4 adults, full stock ballast, and wedge down in 11' water.... the wake felt soooo small. Dissapointing because I have ridden in vlx's with stock ballast and wedge and the wake was very nice. After more research and listening to other owners, i learned that the A22 really needs bow weight, and that it is bigger than the vlx and need more weight period.

I've noticed that once you get around 2800 lbs, the wake begins to get really big, and with every bit of weight you add, you will notice it in the wake. (when 1 extra person comes on my boat when I ride, It is noticeable in the wake) Stock, wedge, and plug n play bags takes about 10 minutes to fill... and if you ride it this way, you will not believe it is the same boat that it was with stock 900 and wedge... I don't know why that is, but it is.

Anyhow, If you like the epic wake (steep), but not the price, an MB 21' will be a wake and boat you will prefer, it is steep and wide. The Axis is a rampy and wide wake, very similar to the xstar and almost exactly like the vlx.
Old    Fred (fredlap)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-12-2012, 11:50 AM Reply   
here's some comparaisons pics for wake shape
1st 2 pics : xstar (lot of weight close to 5000 lbs) vs epic 23v ( half ballast 23 mph)
3rd : axis (stock ballast) vs MB (stock ballast)
4rth : MB vs Epic
Attached Images
    
Old    Daniel Vinson (shadymack)      Join Date: May 2011       05-12-2012, 2:39 PM Reply   
A buddy of mine is a dealer for epic and i think he can get you at the price you want to be at. If you would like to talk to him shot me your contact info and I will get you in touch with him. He will help u the best he can other people on here have bought there epic from him and so have i. I don't think will go wrong with epic
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       05-12-2012, 4:08 PM Reply   
I don't understand why us weekend hacker wakeboarders feel we need 5000 lbs to wakeboard. Point is, it isn't the wake, it is about technique. Buy the boat you like and makes you happy.

This guy seems to be doing pretty good behind a stock VLX wake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMlHfz6JpDY
Old    Preston (Bamabonners)      Join Date: Jul 2011       05-12-2012, 4:20 PM Reply   
watch this video and tell me that axis doesn't have a good wake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y83cM...eature=related
Old    Fred (fredlap)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-12-2012, 6:49 PM Reply   
Preston, that's why pro wakeboarders try since always to get a bigger wake.... Cause they have a lack of technique!!!
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       05-12-2012, 10:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredlap View Post
...and I don't knock my head on the tower speakers anymore!
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyb View Post
...and you don't have 200lbs hanging from your tower.
Oh I get it. You don't actually need tower speakers in an Epic. That's genius! Why didn't you guys mention that earlier? The transom speakers make so much more sense now!



Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       05-12-2012, 10:34 PM Reply   
BTW... I feel like I have to add a disclaimer:

The previous post was written with extreme sarcasm. Before you start throwing slurs at me, just know that I'm only having fun with you guys. While not a fan of the transom speakers, I'm happy that you like them.
Old    D.F.T.R. Josh (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005       05-12-2012, 11:09 PM Reply   
Holy F my pics made it on another thread... LOL!
My pics which are the MB wake are with the stock 1800 with 450 in the bow at 24.5 MPH.

Last edited by downfortheride; 05-12-2012 at 11:13 PM. Reason: Thought...
Old    J.B. O'Neill (gnarslayer)      Join Date: Sep 2008       05-13-2012, 6:06 AM Reply   
used xstar with plug n play is what i did... i found an 05 with 120 hours for 47k and talked them down quite a alot... and it has the 450 engine hehe

if i were to buy brand new i would go with an MB tomcat f21 for sure! the wake stock is great! and if you ad more the wake builds up really well!

my second choice would be the axis a22, the wake stock is pretty flat but when slammed it gets very large!

epic is my third choice not a bad boat at all btw, the wake gets pretty big stock because of the amount of ballast, but i found the wake to be too steep for me... and i rode one once with the standard engine, 350 hp i believe and it could hardly get on plane when full of ballast

but yea maybe open your eyes up to a used mastercraft or nautique, you cant really go wrong with an xstar or 230

MB = best bang for the buck on a new boat

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