Articles
   
       
       
Pics/Video
   
       
       
Shop
Search
 
 
 
 
 
Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
WAKE WORLD HOME
Email Password
Go Back   WakeWorld > Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles

Share 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old    Ryan Bush (ryanbush11)      Join Date: May 2003       03-31-2012, 10:23 AM Reply   
I'm currently running 6 JL HD amps, but i'm constantly having problems with them. I'm thinking about pulling them all out and throwing them away and going with something else. Before I do anything irrational what is everyone else having good luck with

Current System

2 WS Pro 485s -- 2 JL HD 750/1s
4 Pair WS XS-650s -- JL HD 600/4
4 WS Pro60s - JL HD 600/4
JL 12w7 -- JL HD 750/1
DD 3515 -- JL HD 750/1

So a total of 4200 watts would be the minimum, would like to push a little more to the in boats and a little more to the subs and leave the towers where they're at now

anyone have any suggestions?
Old    kx250frider617            03-31-2012, 10:39 AM Reply   
First off, if your going to throw them away, send them to me! (no joke).

What kind of problems are you having?
It seams like you have plenty of power. If they are going into protection mode or something, I would check all your wiring and make sure no speakers are wired below 2ohms, check your batter connections and make sure they are clean, make sure your amps are not getting too hot.

Usually, problems are caused by the installation so double check everything.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-31-2012, 10:40 AM Reply   
We do a ton of those amplifiers with hardly a problem. Same thing with a local counterpart. But they will self-protect against low voltage and a number of other issues. So how are yours behaving and under what circumstances?

David
Earmark Marine
Old    mojo            03-31-2012, 10:47 AM Reply   
Wet sounds man. A syn 4 for your in boats, a syn 4 for the 485's, a syn micro for the 60's, and a syn 1 for your subs(maybe change to two w7's or 1 xxx)

Last edited by mojo; 03-31-2012 at 10:52 AM.
Old    Ryan Bush (ryanbush11)      Join Date: May 2003       03-31-2012, 11:13 AM Reply   
the problem I have is two of the amps keep going into a permeant protect mode where i have to send them back to JL and they repair them for a cost. I'm just tired of spending 100s of dollars to repair amps when no one can seem to tell me why they are breaking... installer has no idea (JL and Wetsounds dealer who only does marine) and does 100s of boats a year, and the JL rep and tech support are also at a loss

also the problem only seems to be these two amps, when they are all 6 hooked into the same power/charging system. leads me to believe it's not a power/voltage issue....

also i have used them to power diffrent speaker systems. at one point i had the 750 powering a pro485 and it went bad, so when i got it back i switched it to powering a sub and it went bad again. same with the 600/4, had it powering in-boats and when I got it back i switched it to pro60s and same thing.... they both went bad within just a few minutes of each other... JL keeps telling me it's moisture but the other 4 amps have been in the same location for 18 months flawless but these two seem to just keep going bad over and over again

Last edited by ryanbush11; 03-31-2012 at 11:16 AM.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       03-31-2012, 6:18 PM Reply   
Ryan,
Here are a few tips that should help.

Damage due to moisture is apparent. It is evident by rust, corrosion or mineral deposits that collect on the circuitry. If you have any internal or external evidence then it's absolutely real. If there is no evidence it's probably not a real issue. The technician should disassemble the amplifier and inspect it internally before sending it off for service. You don't need to have direct contact with water. It could be water in the bilge creating a sauna under the cover while in storage. In any case, if you really have corrosion then you are going to have to solve the core problem.

I know I was contacted by an installer at some time in the past on behalf of your system because it was repetitively blowing speakers. There is always a chance that you did enough permanent thermal damage to the amplifier(s) initially and it is not repairable without doing an entire new board exchange. The manufacturer should burn the amplifier in 'hard' for an hour after the repair and before returning it. Then the technician should do the same on the bench before re-installing it. Ask that both are done. This way If the amplifier immediately protects or thermals then you know you have an issue elsewhere like one or multiple partially charred speaker voice coils.

The HD600/4 is very robust with twin power supplies. That amplifier if abused could shut down a 100 amp power supply and has done that very thing. So if that is your smallest amplifier and you have six amplifiers you could potentially be drawing 500 instantaneous amps if you drive your system into compression. For example, you could be totally exhausting a single Kinetik 2400 every hour or two golf cart batteries every two hours....again, depending on how you treat your system.
It wouldn't be long before you are voltage challenged. Amplifiers do not dissipate heat as effectively at lower voltages nor do they work as efficiently at lower voltages. And because all of these amplifiers are strictly regulated they keep working harder as the voltage drops in order to maintain the same power. Hopefully you have at least 500 amp/hours of battery reserves still performing near their original specs and hopefully you use a 50 amp shore charger at bare minimum. But worn out batteries can happen in less than a season if not cared for properly or if depleted regularly below half capacity and that compounds everything.

Subwoofer enclosures, woofer locations, phasing issues between dissimilar subs in different positions, system tuning, crossover points, equalization and a number of other issues could greatly impact how reliable your system is.

An HD750/1 can be lite for a 12W7 depending on how you play it. I would prefer a 1000/1 or the new 1200/1 for each 12W7 especially in an open boat simply because I would want more reserves so I could run everything that much more conservatively. An over-the-top system that is intended to play loud all day long has to be way over built so that each and every component is run with less stress. There are larger systems on cruisers that run hard and reliably non-stop over a long holiday weekend. They have 100 amp convertors and a generator. Low voltage trickles down and makes problems everywhere. Heat is a killer. The best sytem in the world won't last if consistently driven into compression.

All parties such as the manufacturer, dealer and installer must have a complete idea of how you actually use your system. And you might have to obtain a better understanding about a few things which will impact your usage. Every potential issue can be isolated and either confirmed or eliminated as a problem. Speculation won't get you anywhere. Everything has to be measured. An RTA, handheld oscilloscope and true RMS multimeter are going to be some of the essential tools.
That's a start.

David
Earmark Marine
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       03-31-2012, 7:01 PM Reply   
Wow, i would love to spend a little time responding to this thread, hopefully I will have some time tomorrow..

you need to throw waaaaaaay more power at that 3515 (1500w rms minimum)

sell all those JL HD's, sell that w7. Buy another DD3515, buy a DD monobloc amp for each, buy 3 syn 4's, and a BOAT LOAD of batteries, party on.
Old    Ryan Bush (ryanbush11)      Join Date: May 2003       03-31-2012, 10:05 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by david_e_m View Post
Ryan,
Here are a few tips that should help.

Damage due to moisture is apparent. It is evident by rust, corrosion or mineral deposits that collect on the circuitry. If you have any internal or external evidence then it's absolutely real. If there is no evidence it's probably not a real issue. The technician should disassemble the amplifier and inspect it internally before sending it off for service. You don't need to have direct contact with water. It could be water in the bilge creating a sauna under the cover while in storage. In any case, if you really have corrosion then you are going to have to solve the core problem.

I know I was contacted by an installer at some time in the past on behalf of your system because it was repetitively blowing speakers. There is always a chance that you did enough permanent thermal damage to the amplifier(s) initially and it is not repairable without doing an entire new board exchange. The manufacturer should burn the amplifier in 'hard' for an hour after the repair and before returning it. Then the technician should do the same on the bench before re-installing it. Ask that both are done. This way If the amplifier immediately protects or thermals then you know you have an issue elsewhere like one or multiple partially charred speaker voice coils.

The HD600/4 is very robust with twin power supplies. That amplifier if abused could shut down a 100 amp power supply and has done that very thing. So if that is your smallest amplifier and you have six amplifiers you could potentially be drawing 500 instantaneous amps if you drive your system into compression. For example, you could be totally exhausting a single Kinetik 2400 every hour or two golf cart batteries every two hours....again, depending on how you treat your system.
It wouldn't be long before you are voltage challenged. Amplifiers do not dissipate heat as effectively at lower voltages nor do they work as efficiently at lower voltages. And because all of these amplifiers are strictly regulated they keep working harder as the voltage drops in order to maintain the same power. Hopefully you have at least 500 amp/hours of battery reserves still performing near their original specs and hopefully you use a 50 amp shore charger at bare minimum. But worn out batteries can happen in less than a season if not cared for properly or if depleted regularly below half capacity and that compounds everything.

Subwoofer enclosures, woofer locations, phasing issues between dissimilar subs in different positions, system tuning, crossover points, equalization and a number of other issues could greatly impact how reliable your system is.

An HD750/1 can be lite for a 12W7 depending on how you play it. I would prefer a 1000/1 or the new 1200/1 for each 12W7 especially in an open boat simply because I would want more reserves so I could run everything that much more conservatively. An over-the-top system that is intended to play loud all day long has to be way over built so that each and every component is run with less stress. There are larger systems on cruisers that run hard and reliably non-stop over a long holiday weekend. They have 100 amp convertors and a generator. Low voltage trickles down and makes problems everywhere. Heat is a killer. The best sytem in the world won't last if consistently driven into compression.

All parties such as the manufacturer, dealer and installer must have a complete idea of how you actually use your system. And you might have to obtain a better understanding about a few things which will impact your usage. Every potential issue can be isolated and either confirmed or eliminated as a problem. Speculation won't get you anywhere. Everything has to be measured. An RTA, handheld oscilloscope and true RMS multimeter are going to be some of the essential tools.
That's a start.

David
Earmark Marine
Thanks for the Reply... i'm at 550 amp hours right now on the battery power, and 60 amp charger... so i think we've got that covered.. also i'm running dual 0 guage into 8 4ga out so I don't think the power distribution is the problem

90% of the time we're wakeboarding so playing at 100% volume for long periods of time is not the norm... although their are the occasional holiday weekend where we play at 90% volume for 6-8 hours at a time, when we do this the boat is plugged into power all the time.

I had been contemplating switching both the subs to HD1200/1s and that was the original plan when we put the system together, i was afraid that the 1200 would be too much power for the 12w7.

the issue with moisture bothers me because all 6 amps are in the same location but none of the other ones have ever had an issue but these two keep having the same issue, we've even put them in different locations on the amp rack.

so i guess the question is where do we go from here?
Old    Brian (brianinpdx)      Join Date: Aug 2009       04-01-2012, 1:12 AM Reply   
Ryan - have your 750's all been looked at by JL tech? I believe this model was part of the recall they did. I had a customer that had similar problems with a 750 going into perm protect. went back and forth with JL and they finally upgraded his amps. I'm not suggesting anyone take advantage of a manufacturer (because I work at one), but JL is a customer driven company. I would think they want to know whats up. Something like this might have to go up the food chain to someone like Manvil.

Here's the thing about water damage - There is always evidence on the PCB. But whats funny is that this is often what repair techs say when really can't locate the problem. If that really is the case, I'd politely ask someone to show you. Heck I've said this to my own techs. Document it!!! I'm not saying this in any way shape or form, to sling mud upon JL. I'm friends with several people over there. I will say that I've seen electronics in my 25+ years at various mfg's, that we just don't have answers for. When amps start blowing up, it often happens again and again when things are repaired. Not in all cases. But it does happen. Sometimes the first smoke show damages other area's that at first check out. Then later these issues cascade and smokeshow again. Meanwhile the customer is getting really miffed.

Fact is, you've got a lot of JL gear, I'd suggest replacing the bad gear with the newer JL models move on. Do the upgrades like David mentioned and get back to cranking out the tunes.

Just my 2 cents,

-Brian
Exile
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       04-01-2012, 8:14 AM Reply   
Like unvisible said, you are underpowering the hell out of that DD3515, and probably doing more damage than good to it. The DD 3500 series are bad ass subs, but require huge boxes if going ported (4^ft+). The JL W7 is a great sq sub, but I would never put one on my boat due to inefficiency.

If your boat was mine this is what I'd do.

4 Pair WS XS-650s -and 4 WS Pro60s - Run all 12 speakers on one Zed Audio Leviathan. 150+ watts RMS x 12 @ 2ohm
2 WS Pro 485s - Run both on Zed Audio Dreadnought. 800x2 Bridged @ 4ohm
As for the subs, I'd replace both for a Sundown Zv3 15" and put in a 3.25^ft (after displacement) ported enclosure. Power it with any decent 2000+ Class D mono, like the Exile 2500.1.

Oh wow! 1100wrms more, 3 amps less, 1 sub less
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       04-01-2012, 10:28 AM Reply   
Ryan,
I'm not going to call anyone out but there is a fair amount of misinformation abound about how to proceed, what true power ratings are and so forth and so on.
Do not go with the HD1200/1 in your particular application. It is more power than the HD750/1 but in the same size chassis with the same heatsink mass. No problem in the air conditioned cab of your vehicle but not a good idea in a boat's locker that can easily exceed 150 degress in July and in a boat that has already experienced both speaker and amplifier failures. For the subs you want to go with the new Slash 1200/1 in a much larger chassis.
JL Audio would have already addressed any issues with a past recall based on the serial number of the unit when it went in for service. But it isn't going to hurt to confirm this.
There are no elusive problems that cannot be remmedied. Not in my experience. So how to proceed? Get all issues out of the realm of subjective speculation and start measuring performance in the right sequence and by isolating component by component. There are instruments and techniques that will get you into concrete measurables. And measurables don't lie. Start with the charging system by determining exactly what the voltage is at the precise moment any amplifier goes into protection and measure at the amplifier primary terminals. Verify the present health of each and every speaker so that a few partially damaged voice coils are not changing behaviors once heated up and causing amplifiers to go into protection (just doing what they are designed to do). Use a scope to determine component by component what clipping is, make sure you have a correlation between what clipping or compression is from an audible perception as compared to a visual reference. This may force you to adjust your thinking and system usage. You need to identify any phasing issues, sub enclosure issues, sub orientation issues, acoustic isolation issues, equalization issues, crossover issues or any other reason that is causing your system to over-work to produce lesser results. You may want to force-ventilate the console and fan cool the components. Yeah, its going to be time consuming and expensive. But there are no short cuts at this point. It's not a brand to brand issue. Forget Ford vs Chevy. Solve the issues with the brand you have instead of leaving issues in tact and taking them with you with new brands.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Brian (brianinpdx)      Join Date: Aug 2009       04-01-2012, 10:54 AM Reply   
I'm not raining on anything thats been said by anyone here.. but not one single thing mentioned by anyone (including me) has given this guy a reason why his amps are going into permanent "protect". I do like the idea of checking the health of all your speakers. I suspect doing so will uncover some gremlins. Isolating problems is the key to solving them. It could very well be that you have multiple problems that are creating multiple and "different" failures.

Are you sure this is permanent protect on the amps?
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       04-01-2012, 11:00 AM Reply   
^^^^^ Exactly! It's all 100 percent speculation until you start measuring.
Old    Ryan Bush (ryanbush11)      Join Date: May 2003       04-01-2012, 2:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by david_e_m View Post
Ryan,
I'm not going to call anyone out but there is a fair amount of misinformation abound about how to proceed, what true power ratings are and so forth and so on.
Do not go with the HD1200/1 in your particular application. It is more power than the HD750/1 but in the same size chassis with the same heatsink mass. No problem in the air conditioned cab of your vehicle but not a good idea in a boat's locker that can easily exceed 150 degress in July and in a boat that has already experienced both speaker and amplifier failures. For the subs you want to go with the new Slash 1200/1 in a much larger chassis.
JL Audio would have already addressed any issues with a past recall based on the serial number of the unit when it went in for service. But it isn't going to hurt to confirm this.
There are no elusive problems that cannot be remmedied. Not in my experience. So how to proceed? Get all issues out of the realm of subjective speculation and start measuring performance in the right sequence and by isolating component by component. There are instruments and techniques that will get you into concrete measurables. And measurables don't lie. Start with the charging system by determining exactly what the voltage is at the precise moment any amplifier goes into protection and measure at the amplifier primary terminals. Verify the present health of each and every speaker so that a few partially damaged voice coils are not changing behaviors once heated up and causing amplifiers to go into protection (just doing what they are designed to do). Use a scope to determine component by component what clipping is, make sure you have a correlation between what clipping or compression is from an audible perception as compared to a visual reference. This may force you to adjust your thinking and system usage. You need to identify any phasing issues, sub enclosure issues, sub orientation issues, acoustic isolation issues, equalization issues, crossover issues or any other reason that is causing your system to over-work to produce lesser results. You may want to force-ventilate the console and fan cool the components. Yeah, its going to be time consuming and expensive. But there are no short cuts at this point. It's not a brand to brand issue. Forget Ford vs Chevy. Solve the issues with the brand you have instead of leaving issues in tact and taking them with you with new brands.

David
Earmark Marine

Just to clerify the amps aren't going into protect mode until they go into "permeant" protect mode when they die, I will start measuring the voltage at the amps and see what it's doing??

So what tools do I need?
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       04-01-2012, 4:32 PM Reply   
Ryan,

I'm not going to call anyone out, but some members on here sell JL amps, and will probably send you PM's stating other members don't know what they're talking about. This is a fact, running at 2ohm the Leviathan will put out 150 WATTS RMS to TWELVE speakers, and the Dreadnaught will put out 800 WATTS RMS X 2. These figures are at 12.6v. Here's another fact, JL does not currently sell an amp that puts out enough power to properly drive that Digital Designs sub you have. 750 watts to DD3515 is a joke.

First check the amps removable plugs for the power/ground/turn on.Then measure the voltage from battery to distro block, then distro block to amp. Do the same for the ground. Measure the speaker impedance on each channel.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       04-01-2012, 4:37 PM Reply   
Ryan,
I outlined a few of the tools that a pro tech may use at the end of one of my early posts. But for starters definitely have a multimeter.
750 watts per each Pro485 is all they can handle and will have no trouble driving these into dynamic compression.
150 watts per each Pro60 is approaching what they can handle. But this is a twin power supply strictly regulated amplifier that will hang with most any 4-ohm 200 watt per channel amplifier which is very close to the continuous limit of a 6.5" HLCD.
Your XS650s can handle more than the 75 watts that they are currently each receiving.
The subs are under-powered, not in the context of a vehicle, but in the context of an open boat.
I don't want to speculate but if I was to guess....from the number of speakers and amplifiers I know you have lost, I would estimate that voltage gets low and you are over-driving both electronics and speakers which eventually both suffer thermal damage. Thermal damage is acummulative. And rarely will you go through rugged Pro-style speakers without exacting some degree of impactful stress on the electronics. You can toast an output MOSFET and easily replace it but the heat damage to torroids and other major parts might not be enough to initially fail the entire amplifier operation until further usage. Then it's a matter of eventual failure because the amplifier begins to run less efficiently overall. It's like an over-driven engine where you can replace the piston rings but it's only a matter of time before the lower bearings seize up.
This is why measurements with a scope can show compression before you do more damage. If you can clearly identify the problem in objective terms then you can avoid the problem in the future via a change in system tuning or more disciplined use or greater voltage reserves.
But right now you are already at or close to the power handling limitations of many of your speakers, I'm afraid more power, at least on the tower, isn't the solution. If the smaller Pro60s are expected to keep pace with the larger Pro485s than I don't give either the Pro60s or amplifiers that run them much life expectancy. Running dissimilar speakers can be an inherent design flaw.
You know race cars may totally rebuild the engine after every race. SPL contestants who are top winning performers and who always push their equipment to the max consistently replace a portion of the equipment after just about every event. They may have a wall of batteries and only draw upon those reserves for very short burps.
You can get one season out of your equipment or ten seasons depending on how it's put to task.
A tiny 4-cylinder Acura tuner can run a sub-10 second quarter mile. It might last 10, 20, 30K miles. Running stock it will run 150 to 200 K miles. That which burns twice as bright burns half as long. So these problems do not surprise me. And since I didn't sell you anything I can be speak without appearing defensive.
You need a local pro from your area. If he wants some help he can call me and I will walk him thorough a step by step process that leaves no stone un-turned.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Ryan Bush (ryanbush11)      Join Date: May 2003       04-01-2012, 7:46 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by david_e_m View Post
Ryan,
I outlined a few of the tools that a pro tech may use at the end of one of my early posts. But for starters definitely have a multimeter.
750 watts per each Pro485 is all they can handle and will have no trouble driving these into dynamic compression.
150 watts per each Pro60 is approaching what they can handle. But this is a twin power supply strictly regulated amplifier that will hang with most any 4-ohm 200 watt per channel amplifier which is very close to the continuous limit of a 6.5" HLCD.
Your XS650s can handle more than the 75 watts that they are currently each receiving.
The subs are under-powered, not in the context of a vehicle, but in the context of an open boat.
I don't want to speculate but if I was to guess....from the number of speakers and amplifiers I know you have lost, I would estimate that voltage gets low and you are over-driving both electronics and speakers which eventually both suffer thermal damage. Thermal damage is acummulative. And rarely will you go through rugged Pro-style speakers without exacting some degree of impactful stress on the electronics. You can toast an output MOSFET and easily replace it but the heat damage to torroids and other major parts might not be enough to initially fail the entire amplifier operation until further usage. Then it's a matter of eventual failure because the amplifier begins to run less efficiently overall. It's like an over-driven engine where you can replace the piston rings but it's only a matter of time before the lower bearings seize up.
This is why measurements with a scope can show compression before you do more damage. If you can clearly identify the problem in objective terms then you can avoid the problem in the future via a change in system tuning or more disciplined use or greater voltage reserves.
But right now you are already at or close to the power handling limitations of many of your speakers, I'm afraid more power, at least on the tower, isn't the solution. If the smaller Pro60s are expected to keep pace with the larger Pro485s than I don't give either the Pro60s or amplifiers that run them much life expectancy. Running dissimilar speakers can be an inherent design flaw.
You know race cars may totally rebuild the engine after every race. SPL contestants who are top winning performers and who always push their equipment to the max consistently replace a portion of the equipment after just about every event. They may have a wall of batteries and only draw upon those reserves for very short burps.
You can get one season out of your equipment or ten seasons depending on how it's put to task.
A tiny 4-cylinder Acura tuner can run a sub-10 second quarter mile. It might last 10, 20, 30K miles. Running stock it will run 150 to 200 K miles. That which burns twice as bright burns half as long. So these problems do not surprise me. And since I didn't sell you anything I can be speak without appearing defensive.
You need a local pro from your area. If he wants some help he can call me and I will walk him thorough a step by step process that leaves no stone un-turned.

David
Earmark Marine
Problem is I don't trust the original installer, I've ended up fixing quite a bit of my stuff myself, if you don't mind i will contact you this week and possibly find another pro to take it to.
Old    Ryan Bush (ryanbush11)      Join Date: May 2003       04-02-2012, 6:05 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianinpdx View Post
Ryan - have your 750's all been looked at by JL tech? I believe this model was part of the recall they did. I had a customer that had similar problems with a 750 going into perm protect. went back and forth with JL and they finally upgraded his amps. I'm not suggesting anyone take advantage of a manufacturer (because I work at one), but JL is a customer driven company. I would think they want to know whats up. Something like this might have to go up the food chain to someone like Manvil.

Here's the thing about water damage - There is always evidence on the PCB. But whats funny is that this is often what repair techs say when really can't locate the problem. If that really is the case, I'd politely ask someone to show you. Heck I've said this to my own techs. Document it!!! I'm not saying this in any way shape or form, to sling mud upon JL. I'm friends with several people over there. I will say that I've seen electronics in my 25+ years at various mfg's, that we just don't have answers for. When amps start blowing up, it often happens again and again when things are repaired. Not in all cases. But it does happen. Sometimes the first smoke show damages other area's that at first check out. Then later these issues cascade and smokeshow again. Meanwhile the customer is getting really miffed.

Fact is, you've got a lot of JL gear, I'd suggest replacing the bad gear with the newer JL models move on. Do the upgrades like David mentioned and get back to cranking out the tunes.

Just my 2 cents,

-Brian
Exile
Thanks for your post, do you happen to have Manvils contact info?
Old    D (tx_foilhead)      Join Date: Apr 2009       04-02-2012, 7:37 PM Reply   
I believe it is on the JL site.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-02-2012, 8:53 PM Reply   
Catfight!

Reply
Share 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 2:34 PM.

Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
Wake World Home

 

© 2012 eWake, Inc.    
Advertise    |    Contact    |    Terms of Use    |    Privacy Policy    |    Report Abuse    |    Conduct    |    About Us