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Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       02-27-2012, 5:24 AM Reply   
Levi,
This isn't a TIGE thread I was just poking fun at some of the ridiculousness of this thread and the garbage everyone argues about here. TIGE prices vary alot over the country. Here its more like this, loaded TIGE 80k. Loaded Malibu 90k. Loaded MC 100k. For their 22 foot boats. But again I was just poking fun at the thread

You're right though I am a single college student who was thrilled to have gotten a vdrive boat last year after having a 20 year old inboard that barely ran for more than 20 minutes at a time. We got the boat we got 1 because it had good value and 2 because it had a wake shape that we knew we would enjoy because you're not
Shelling out 100k for a party boat, you're spending it on a WAKEboat. That's my .02, if you're buying a boat specifcally to wakeboard behind then why wouldn't the wake be one of your top priorities...

In terms of build quality theyre all pretty much the same, just different fit and finish. I'll keep my mouth shut about MC because
I have an axe to grind.

Oh well. Just look through all BS and enjoy boat shopping its a very fun experience
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-27-2012, 5:56 AM Reply   
simplej,

If the quality of the wake is your top priority, why did you buy a tige? I thought those boats were for surfing?


I kid, I kid.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-27-2012, 6:06 AM Reply   
For what it's worth, I've owned a VLX, an XStar, several 230's, an Axis A22 and several other boats. I never felt like my VLX was underbuilt, even compared to the 230's, which were manufactured using a drop in liner like the MC's pictured earlier. The only thing I didn't like about the VLX was that you couldn't remove the carpet. If I'm not mistaken, the Axis boats are also built utilizing a drop in liner design as well. Seems like there are several ways to skin a cat when it comes to hull/floor infrastructure, both of which work pretty well in the wakeboat context.

What's funny is that you never hear about people's stringers cracking or falling apart, or people having to take their boats in to get support pieces added to their stringers or floors (I'm sure it happens, but I'm not aware of any such cases with newer model boats). However, you do hear a lot of complaints about the new MC towers creaking, breaking and shaking. Seems to me that if you're paying a premium for a particular manufacturer's boat, it should do everything right. What's the point of having a 10k tower that doesn't work perfectly, or at least better than the cheaper alternatives?
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       02-27-2012, 6:38 AM Reply   
Have you checked out a Wakecraft?
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       02-27-2012, 7:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake View Post
simplej,

If the quality of the wake is your top priority, why did you buy a tige? I thought those boats were for surfing?


I kid, I kid.
Because you don't need any ballast with the taps2/convex V hull system!!!
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-27-2012, 7:24 AM Reply   
Yeah yeah. I hear you..... I can assure you that if you want a nice big wake out of one of those tiges, you'd have to add sacs or lead, just like with every other boat on the market.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-27-2012, 7:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
The LSV does have some cool electronics and makes great wakes. MasterCraft is a decade ahead of Malibu when it comes to how the boat is built. There is not a doubt in my mind that we are going to see a big shift in resale over the next few years.
Way to throw out some unsupported BS.... Just saw you work at S&W in Denver, so I'm not surprised. Spouting crap like this is why you guys are one of the worst dealers in the area, and another reason why I wouldn't even look at a mastercraft in Colorado.

So sad that this every time I talk to someone form this dealer they are downing other makers with BS negative sales tactics. There isn't a wake boat maker out there that's 10 years behind anyone.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-27-2012, 7:52 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizza View Post
how much was Mastercraft X-Stars for from 2004-2011??? I must have missed the huge redesign that happened between those years other than a fancier dash and interior.
Brian, he's a sales guy for S&W, pretty much anything he's going to say is complete BS. For him it's ok that the xstar didn't change for 7 years, because it's a mastercraft.... Any other boat maker does that and they are terrible. That boat dealer is a joke and only hurts mastercraft in the colorado area with their lack of knowledge and terribel sales tactics, they seriously are the best sales people for all the other good dealers here like Tommys and WWS.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-27-2012, 8:06 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hco View Post
Travis, I would take a better built boat with a shaky tower than a lesser quality boat with a 'more sturdy' tower. The illusions and their past towers are not without their faults as well. Not to mention that although the wedge is a great design on paper, although I have not owned hundreds of malibus, my family and some of my best friends have had nothing but problems with power and manual wedges, which Malibu has hung us out to dry over (have not used floating wedge though). If you plan on buying a boat and keeping it for 10 years, that extra 10-20k (depending on dealer, options etc...) becomes quickly justified in my mind. My cousins MC made it to 1700 hours with only routine maintenance, while our malibu (650 hours) has been an absolute ****spreader, with obvious design flaws and construction issues.
What issues have you had with the power wedges? I've had zero issues with mine, and I really haven't known anyone who has either.
In the end, just like cars, some boats are going to run forever and some are going to have issues. This is true across all boat makers.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-27-2012, 8:30 AM Reply   
I also had no issues with my power wedge or the floating wedge on my A22. Thinking back on it, I had a few small warranty claims relating to some stress cracks in the gel near the front grab handle things in the bow, and some interior pieces that pulled at the piping.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-27-2012, 8:38 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 501s View Post
"find a wake you like and get that boat because thats what youre buying the boat for. end of story" ?

I am guessing you either aren't married or your wife's opinion of which boat she wants to spend the money on doesn't matter. For us, this boat is going to be used by the whole family so the whole boat matters especially the interior/storage/seating/quality, not just the wake.

Also I should be clear, the price difference isn't very big. if I elimiate the Masercraft touchscreen and a blinged out trailer they are pretty close to the same price.


The Malibu will NOT fall apart, it will last 20 years. I won't debate that in anyways. But is the mastercraft built tougher/more heavy duty? I think so. Is it worth spending more money on? That is my struggle.
I think you are doing the smart thing there. If your wife isn't happy with the boat, you aren't going to be happy with it.

In general I think people on this site put a little too much emphasis on having the perfect, pro sized wakeboard wake. That said you mentioned in your first post that wakeboard wake is very important so keep that in mind.

That is crazy the Tige Z3 is more then a 23LSV. Kind of off topic but I wonder what the general pricing rank for the different manufacturer's is around the country when taking a similar size and optioned boat. I would think it would go 1)Mastercraft 2)Nautique 3)Malibu 4)Tige 5)Centurion 6)Supra 7/8/9)Moomba, MB, Axis

It sounds like your area doesn't follow that though. At least not when you compare the X30 to the 23LSV and Z3. Seems crazy if it goes Z3, X30, 23LSV especially if the X30 and 23LSV are closer in price then the Z3 and the others.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-27-2012, 8:42 AM Reply   
Chris, you have no idea who I am, why would you come on here and spout some crap like that. I have been at S&W for one year and have spend the past 12 years on the east coast selling boats. I never use negative sales tactics and I am a big fan of most of the manufacturers. I am just bringing some FACTS to the table about comparing the new X-30 to a VLX. IMHO, MC is building the best boats right now and yes, they are the most expensive. Whether the extra cost if worth the price is a personal decision.

Take some time to come in the shop some time and you will see that I do know what I am talking about and why MC was tied for #1 in CO this past year. FACT.

Last edited by alans; 02-27-2012 at 8:52 AM.
Old    RPenner (pennery)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-27-2012, 9:01 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakereviews View Post
Have you checked out a Wakecraft?
Hey Ian, Have you checked out a WakeCraft? If you have I assume this post was a joke. If not and this was a serious response then please do yourself a favor and check one out.

I spent a weekend in one and it was the worst "Wakeboat" I have ever been in. Fit and finsh was horrible, Wake was terrible, The side exhaust was annoying, It had very little power for having a great engine, The side to side wobble was rediculous. Everyone talks about how the engine hatch comes up for maintenace which I agree is a great feature but provides zero structural integrity and you can see the gap widen between the Hull and the Sunpad as you hit waves...
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-27-2012, 9:03 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
Take some time to come in the shop some time and you will see that I do know what I am talking about and why MC was tied for #1 in CO this past year. FACT.
How many boats did you guys sell last year?
Old    Brett B. (Brett_B)      Join Date: Sep 2010       02-27-2012, 9:16 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake View Post
What's funny is that you never hear about people's stringers cracking or falling apart, or people having to take their boats in to get support pieces added to their stringers or floors (I'm sure it happens, but I'm not aware of any such cases with newer model boats). However, you do hear a lot of complaints about the new MC towers creaking, breaking and shaking. Seems to me that if you're paying a premium for a particular manufacturer's boat, it should do everything right. What's the point of having a 10k tower that doesn't work perfectly, or at least better than the cheaper alternatives?
This is a good point Chatt and it’s too bad this did turn into MC guys bashing Malibu by calling it “inferior” as either boat would be a great choice. Some people are claiming MC’s are higher quality, no coincidence that some of them are apparently MC salesmen. And to support that statement, a fiberglass pattern cutter, a different looking stringer, and a 1-piece floor liner are mentioned. Is that it?

If the Malibu uses different methods in the VLX, but they don't fail, why does that make it lower quality? Do you have tests that show a 1-piece floor is stronger than a multi-piece floor, and that it has any impact on the longevity of the boat what so ever? It’s possible that the Malibu hull is designed in such a manner that it doesn’t need a larger stringer. Do you have the structural analysis results that show having a wider, flatter stringer in the MC results in a stronger hull assembly than the taller narrower one in the Malibu? Because if not, than you are just regurgitating the marketing BS. You say one approach is better. Fine, prove it. Should be easy to do.

But when it comes to areas that are prone to failure, such as towers, then MC gets a complete pass. If Malibu is "10 years behind" in floor construction despite not having any problems than Mastercraft must be 20 years behind in tower construction. Everybody has seen the pictures of multiple broken power towers. Show me a picture of a VLX with a broken stringer or floor. Malibu sells thousands of boats each year, if it's such a problem it should be easy to find.



Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-27-2012, 9:23 AM Reply   
Brett, look at the storage difference and the ease of cleaning. That is the major difference in the floor construction. No one ever said that it was inferior in regard to durability. These are two very important features that people look at when buying a new boat these days.

I would worry more about the Malibu kool-aid drinkers on here, apparently they have not actually seen what other manufacturers have been doing over the past 5 years. Tige is taking big bites out of their market share and I think they deserve it.
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       02-27-2012, 9:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennery View Post
Hey Ian, Have you checked out a WakeCraft? If you have I assume this post was a joke. If not and this was a serious response then please do yourself a favor and check one out.

I spent a weekend in one and it was the worst "Wakeboat" I have ever been in. Fit and finsh was horrible, Wake was terrible, The side exhaust was annoying, It had very little power for having a great engine, The side to side wobble was rediculous. Everyone talks about how the engine hatch comes up for maintenace which I agree is a great feature but provides zero structural integrity and you can see the gap widen between the Hull and the Sunpad as you hit waves...
yes, i was kidding....
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-27-2012, 9:30 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
Chris, you have no idea who I am, why would you come on here and spout some crap like that. I have been at S&W for one year and have spend the past 12 years on the east coast selling boats. I never use negative sales tactics and I am a big fan of most of the manufacturers. I am just bringing some FACTS to the table about comparing the new X-30 to a VLX. IMHO, MC is building the best boats right now and yes, they are the most expensive. Whether the extra cost if worth the price is a personal decision.

Take some time to come in the shop some time and you will see that I do know what I am talking about and why MC was tied for #1 in CO this past year. FACT.
I know what you've put in your profile, sales manager at S&W. I also know from experience that S&W is one of the most arrogant and worst dealers in Denver. I know you make claims as "facts", like MC is 10 years a head of malibu, but supply no evidence to support these "facts". So do you only say negative things on message boards about other brands, but unlike the other people at S&W, you don't use when you sell? I highly doubt that.
What comparison can you make between the x-30 and VLX, they are even comparable, this conversation is about the LSV and X-30, little fact for you, the LSV is the 23ft boat the VLX is a 21 ft. See how that worked, that is a fact....
Do I think MC makes a good boat, yes, do I think they have the best built boat, no. In fact after hours of research, years spent behind multiple models of boats, and years crawling through different brands I actually think nautique has the most solid build. Do I think it warrants their overly inflated price tag, No. Do I think it's sooo much better than Malibu, MC, or Tige, nope, just slightly, and not enough to over come some of the things I don't' like about them. Do I think MC's build is sooo much better it should be priced where it is, no, in fact I like the builds of the malibus better than the MCs I've been in. Also I think if you're wanting storage and deep freeboard the tige blows both MC and malibu out of the water.
I've been in your shop multiple times, and every time I've walked out saying "I don't' care if they had the best boats in world, I would never buy from them". It's been due to conversation similar to what you've posted here.
This is my passion, I don't just go to the boat shows, I go to the dealers, I demo boats. I'd say 90% of the posters on the boat forum are well educated on the subject, and ignorant statements like you've made here. You can't come to the educated wakeboat owner and try to sell them that MC is 10 years ahead of the competiton, because most of us have been on multiple boats and we know you're full of ****.

So you were tied for the #1 boat sales in colorado, couldn't tell by how few MCs you see on our lakes. Like the other "facts" you put out, where is your evidence?

Sad part is you could have helped your dealer by coming in here and just talking about MC, not dogging the other brands and thinking us ignorant. I know I'm in the market to buy a new boat after this year, and I know another poster here is as well, but you won't be on my list of dealers that I visit, and for good reason
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-27-2012, 9:35 AM Reply   
I was curious about the tied for #1 as well, pretty obvious who sells the most wakeboard boats in Denver when you go to the lake and it's not one of "the big 3".
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-27-2012, 9:38 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyb View Post
I was curious about the tied for #1 as well, pretty obvious who sells the most wakeboard boats in Denver when you go to the lake and it's not one of "the big 3".
It's been a battle back and forth between tommys and WWS. Bill is one of the nicest guys I've ever met and Brian ROth at TOmmys is always a great help and is a great guy also
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-27-2012, 9:42 AM Reply   
I also want to remind everyone that this thread is about a 2012 VLX and a 2012 X-30. I realized that a lot of you have a ton of brand loyalty and rightly so. Chris, you have an older VTX. It is an awesome boat and was ahead of its time back in '08, but 2012 is another story and things are changing in the industry.

Let me give you an example. I have always hated gasoline ford trucks and I would never own one. When they came out with the Ecoboost last year, they converted me from being a Chevy guy. When I did my research, I had to filter out all of the things that the Ford enthusiasts were telling me. All I cared about is what the Ecoboost people were saying because that is all I was interested in. That was the game changer for me. If I was picking between the Ford 5.4 and the Chevy 6.2, it was a pretty easy decision, but in 2011 it was the Ecoboost vs. a much more expensive Chevy 6.2. I chose the ecoboost and could not be happier. What mattered was who had the best product at that given point in time.

The OP does not care about an 04-11 X-Star, the older MC Power tower, or any changes that the LSV has been through. He is asking about the 2012 LSV and X-30. If you go back to my posts, you will see that they pertain to the question at hand.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-27-2012, 9:48 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
I also want to remind everyone that this thread is about a 2012 VLX and a 2012 X-30. I realized that a lot of you have a ton of brand loyalty and rightly so. Chris, you have an older VTX. It is an awesome boat and was ahead of its time back in '08, but 2012 is another story and things are changing in the industry.

Let me give you an example. I have always hated gasoline ford trucks and I would never own one. When they came out with the Ecoboost last year, they converted me from being a Chevy guy. When I did my research, I had to filter out all of the things that the Ford enthusiasts were telling me. All I cared about is what the Ecoboost people were saying because that is all I was interested in. That was the game changer for me. If I was picking between the Ford 5.4 and the Chevy 6.2, it was a pretty easy decision, but in 2011 it was the Ecoboost vs. a much more expensive Chevy 6.2. I chose the ecoboost and could not be happier. What mattered was who had the best product at that given point in time.

The OP does not care about an 04-11 X-Star, the older MC Power tower, or any changes that the LSV has been through. He is asking about the 2012 LSV and X-30. If you go back to my posts, you will see that they pertain to the question at hand.
Ok I'll give you chance to back up some of your crap... What great changes has MC made that would make me drop 30k more than on a 2012 LSV? Comparing the VLX and the X30 doesn't make sense.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-27-2012, 9:49 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
Brett, look at the storage difference and the ease of cleaning. That is the major difference in the floor construction. No one ever said that it was inferior in regard to durability. These are two very important features that people look at when buying a new boat these days.

I would worry more about the Malibu kool-aid drinkers on here, apparently they have not actually seen what other manufacturers have been doing over the past 5 years. Tige is taking big bites out of their market share and I think they deserve it.
How is the mastercraft any easier to clean than the BU? They both have fiberglass decks with snap out carpeting
Old    RPenner (pennery)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-27-2012, 9:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakereviews View Post
yes, i was kidding....
You had me worried Ian....
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-27-2012, 9:53 AM Reply   
Chris, sorry to hear you had bad experiences with S&W. I hope that one day you give us another shot. I do not think I have bashed brands on here. Sorry about the "10 year old" comment. That construction process is much older than that and it does work well. Almost every other manufacturer has moved away from it over the past 8 years. It looks like Malibu is starting to as well, but they have not done it with the LSV yet.

Manufacturer totals are calculated by CO boat registrations. MC was tied with Tige for new units for 2011.

I am a big Nautique fan. I had and '01 and '03 SANTE 210. Put 1300 hrs on the '01 and 500 on my '03 before I bought my first MB in '05.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-27-2012, 9:55 AM Reply   
Chris, go to Tommy's and get a quote for a 23 LSV then come to my dealership and lets build a comparably equipped X-30. I bet you a lunch that there is less than a 5K difference.

I think a lot of people have the MC prices totally blown out of proportion.

I had a guy come in that had been looking at an RZ2 last week. My in-stock X-25 was within 1K of his quoted price.

Last edited by alans; 02-27-2012 at 9:57 AM.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-27-2012, 10:03 AM Reply   
I have quotes for a 2012 LSV and MXZ, like I said I'm in the market. I also have a quote on a Z3. Throw me a price on a reasonable optioned x-30
I've dealt with haggling with S&W on prices. I had a good friend the year before last in the market to buy an X45, and S&W wouldn't move from MSRP, they now have an RZ4.
I've heard them bash slingshot when they pulled out, heard them bash MB, heard them bash Malibu, all in all nothing but bad, and I'm far form alone. I don't know many people who are big into the sport who have a lot of good to say about S&W
Old    David Curtis (davez71)      Join Date: Oct 2007       02-27-2012, 10:03 AM Reply   
No offense to anyone but this whole bickering back and forth about which boat is better than the other and all the other non sense is childish. Both companies build great boats and have for more than 20 years. The original thread was for this man to get information about differnt boats which was what this website was intended for. It happens like that on almost every thread I have read lately in which people bash are loyal to one company and then bash the other company or they throw in a company that thread was not asking information about. Most of the people on here are grown men so it's time they start acting like that and give this guy knowledgeable information that we all have gained throughout the years so that he can purchase a boat and enjoy it like we all do.
Old    RPenner (pennery)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-27-2012, 10:04 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
How is the mastercraft any easier to clean than the BU? They both have fiberglass decks with snap out carpeting
Last time I crawled through a Mastercraft x 25 i noticed all the storage areas (where I throw all of the wet crap) were carpeted... I can't see that being easier to clean than the fiberglass floor in the storage areas of my VLX with snap out carpet... The storage areas in the X 25 were deeper but they were angled with the hull where the floor in the malibu was flat and easy to keep organized. Also I personally like the size of the sunpad and the storage compartments in the back of the Malibu's. I put a large sac in mine and would probably not be able to get the same amount of weight in a comparable size Mastercraft. Also the big bow is useless for me. My dog does not need more space than what is in the Malibu. I prefer the large cabin area...
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-27-2012, 10:08 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennery View Post
Last time I crawled through a Mastercraft x 25 i noticed all the storage areas (where I throw all of the wet crap) were carpeted... I can't see that being easier to clean than the fiberglass floor in the storage areas of my VLX with snap out carpet... The storage areas in the X 25 were deeper but they were angled with the hull where the floor in the malibu was flat and easy to keep organized. Also I personally like the size of the sunpad and the storage compartments in the back of the Malibu's. I put a large sac in mine and would probably not be able to get the same amount of weight in a comparable size Mastercraft. Also the big bow is useless for me. My dog does not need more space than what is in the Malibu. I prefer the large cabin area...
I'm the same on the bow thing. My wife likes the MXZ, I like the LSV, and for 5k cheaper the LSV makes more sense.

My VTX has carpeted storage areas, PITA. I like how they've gone away from that in the newer models
Old    RPenner (pennery)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-27-2012, 10:14 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
Chris, sorry to hear you had bad experiences with S&W. I hope that one day you give us another shot. I do not think I have bashed brands on here. Sorry about the "10 year old" comment. That construction process is much older than that and it does work well. Almost every other manufacturer has moved away from it over the past 8 years. It looks like Malibu is starting to as well, but they have not done it with the LSV yet.

Manufacturer totals are calculated by CO boat registrations. MC was tied with Tige for new units for 2011.

I am a big Nautique fan. I had and '01 and '03 SANTE 210. Put 1300 hrs on the '01 and 500 on my '03 before I bought my first MB in '05.
Are you positive this (one piece deck) is because it is a Better Quality and not a Cheaper way to build providing more profit? I really know nothing about building boats but I do have to question why the smaller manufacturers have gone to this type of construction?
I am a big Malibu guy but I really don't like how the storage areas in the MXZ are carpet because of the one piece deck.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-27-2012, 10:26 AM Reply   
Look at the pictures on page 1.
Old    RPenner (pennery)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-27-2012, 10:33 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
Look at the pictures on page 1.
I have.

I am still not convinced the one piece deck is a "Stronger" way to build I am no Engineer however the floor in the Malibu looks like a more solid way to go... It looks like it takes more Labour to acheive the same result as well... Even the multi piece floor has to provide some structural integrity.
Old    Brett B. (Brett_B)      Join Date: Sep 2010       02-27-2012, 12:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
Look at the pictures on page 1.
We've all seen the pictures. How is a 1-piece fiberglass floor stronger than a multi-piece floor, and how does that difference impact the overall sturdiness of the boat? I'm not talking about storage space differences, I'm talking about structural quality as several here have stated. Give us some facts, otherwise it's just a marketing line.

Last time I checked fiberglass molding wasn't exactly a real expensive process. I wouldn't be surprised if the one-piece floor was cheaper than the approach Malibu uses on the VLX/LSV. Afterall they use the 1-piece floor on their budget Axis line. Sea-Doo jet boats use a 1-piece floor too, does that make them higher quality than Malibu as well?
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-27-2012, 12:34 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett_B View Post
Afterall they use the 1-piece floor on their budget Axis line. Sea-Doo jet boats use a 1-piece floor too, does that make them higher quality than Malibu as well?
Maybe this is due to the Axis being a new boat? If the MXZ is using it and the Axis is using it...maybe they have plans to change over? I'm not an engineer either but it seems that a single piece is stronger than 2 pieces. The advantage two would have over one would be flexibility of the molds. You could potentially use the same seat and floor mold for several models. Just typing out loud here, no idea if that is the reason or not.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-27-2012, 12:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 501s View Post
Ok, so when I went ot the Mastercraft dealer we spent a couple hours going over the boats and he did the "Hull Plug" pitch... I will never "fall" for a sales pitch...
I'm sorry to say, but if you believed the "hull plug" song and dance then you DID in fact fall for a sales pitch.

Let me ask you a simple question... what is the heaviest element in a wakeboat? If your answer is fiberglass, then you are correct.

So if MC's fiberglass is 2x as thick as the competition, why aren't their boats 2x as heavy? The reality is some are heavier by a few hundred pounds, some are lighter.

When I was shopping for my first boat in 2009, the local MC dealer showed me the hull plugs and laughed at me when I said I was considering an MB. Then a year later, that same dealer scored the MB franchise. Guess what... they don't trash MB anymore. Instead they sell 2 MB's for every 1 MC. How funny is that?

So back to the original question... if MC's fiberglass is 2x as thick, how come an X-15 weights 3,575 lbs. and a TWB weighs 3,900 lbs?

I have talked to a very experienced boat designer who has worked for multiple boat builders. He told me that "hull plug" trick is just that... a trick. MC selectively takes those plugs from certain areas of the hull... thick on the MC, thin on the competition. The entire boat is not that thick, and the entire boat on the compeition is not as thin as they show. It's an apples-to-oranges comparison, but most ignorant buyers assume the fiberglas thickness is the same everywhere.

As I said previously, I have no axe to grind with MC boats. And I have no reason to defend Bu. I think both are sweet. But MC sales tactics really turn me off. And Alan hasn't done anything in this thread to change that perception. Lots of high level statements represented as "facts." Like saying that VLX hasn't changed in 10 years. That's not a fact. It's quite simply a lie (complete hull redesign in 2009, new tower in 2010). That's why I keep speaking up. I'm super sensitive to that crap regardless of brand.
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       02-27-2012, 12:45 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
Brett, look at the storage difference and the ease of cleaning. That is the major difference in the floor construction. No one ever said that it was inferior in regard to durability. These are two very important features that people look at when buying a new boat these days.

I would worry more about the Malibu kool-aid drinkers on here, apparently they have not actually seen what other manufacturers have been doing over the past 5 years. Tige is taking big bites out of their market share and I think they deserve it.
LOL, Kool-aid drinkers? Of course we all cheer for our brand, but reading on and finding out more information about you makes me realize you have no idea what you are talking about. You sell Mastercraft boats, and are making comments about a competitor that you have no evidence to back up. Your statements are incorrect and should be addressed in a public forum. Show us some evidence of Malibu boats falling apart after 10, 15 or 20 years of use. Show us how one piece floor designs hold up longer than multiple piece floor designs? If you start supplying factual information this thread will come to a hault, but there has been nothing from you that actually proves your theories and comments. Saying the VLX has not changed in the past 7 years other than a power wedge and fancy dash makes us realize you have not done any homework on a Malibu because this is completely incorrect.

I have to agree with others, you appear to be a true "salesman" that will bash other brands with false information to make your customer feel like they are getting a superior product. I am so pleased my dealer does not work the "smoke and mirrors" sales pitch, if they did, I would have been out the door and never looked back.

Last edited by fman; 02-27-2012 at 12:54 PM.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-27-2012, 12:57 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
I'm sorry to say, but if you believed the "hull plug" song and dance then you DID in fact fall for a sales pitch.

Let me ask you a simple question... what is the heaviest element in a wakeboat? If your answer is fiberglass, then you are correct.

So if MC's fiberglass is 2x as thick as the competition, why aren't their boats 2x as heavy? The reality is some are heavier by a few hundred pounds, some are lighter.

When I was shopping for my first boat in 2009, the local MC dealer showed me the hull plugs and laughed at me when I said I was considering an MB. Then a year later, that same dealer scored the MB franchise. Guess what... they don't trash MB anymore. Instead they sell 2 MB's for every 1 MC. How funny is that?

So back to the original question... if MC's fiberglass is 2x as thick, how come an X-15 weights 3,575 lbs. and a TWB weighs 3,900 lbs?

I have talked to a very experienced boat designer who has worked for multiple boat builders. He told me that "hull plug" trick is just that... a trick. MC selectively takes those plugs from certain areas of the hull... thick on the MC, thin on the competition. The entire boat is not that thick, and the entire boat on the compeition is not as thin as they show. It's an apples-to-oranges comparison, but most ignorant buyers assume the fiberglas thickness is the same everywhere.

As I said previously, I have no axe to grind with MC boats. And I have no reason to defend Bu. I think both are sweet. But MC sales tactics really turn me off. And Alan hasn't done anything in this thread to change that perception. Lots of high level statements represented as "facts." Like saying that VLX hasn't changed in 10 years. That's not a fact. It's quite simply a lie (complete hull redesign in 2009, new tower in 2010). That's why I keep speaking up. I'm super sensitive to that crap regardless of brand.
Great post and soo true. Mastercrafts are great boats, and so are the rest of the ones we are talking about. Each has it's things it does better or worse thant he others. Where MC has issues is that they use name recognition and try to brow beat the competition. With the new boat buyer it probably works very well, for the educated and buyer who buys boats often it kills them. It's a terrible way to do business, and it's why I won't consider them.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-27-2012, 1:04 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fman View Post
LOL, Kool-aid drinkers? Of course we all cheer for our brand, but reading on and finding out more information about you makes me realize you have no idea what you are talking about. You sell Mastercraft boats, and are making comments about a competitor that you have no evidence to back up. Your statements are incorrect and should be addressed in a public forum. Show us some evidence of Malibu boats falling apart after 10, 15 or 20 years of use. Show us how one piece floor designs hold up longer than multiple piece floor designs? If you start supplying factual information this thread will come to a hault, but there has been nothing from you that actually proves your theories and comments. Saying the VLX has not changed in the past 7 years other than a power wedge and fancy dash makes us realize you have not done any homework on a Malibu because this is completely incorrect.

I have to agree with others, you appear to be a true "salesman" that will bash other brands with false information to make your customer feel like they are getting a superior product. I am so pleased my dealer does not work the "smoke and mirrors" sales pitch, if they did, I would have been out the door and never looked back.
Off Topic but I just wanted to say I love your VLX. It is the exact color scheme I would do although I might drop the wakesetter graphics off and go really clean. Great looking boat. The pic looks like the NW. Where abouts?
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       02-27-2012, 1:07 PM Reply   
not sure if the 2012 LSV is carpeted floor and seat bases, but I really liked it in the older vlx's. The one piece fiberglass floor design does not allow for the carpet seat bases like in the supras, some malibus and I think moomba. I know there are pros and cons of the carpet, and now that I have a boat with fiberglass flooring with snap in carpet I am very happy with it. But I did love my buddies 07 vlx with carpet everywhere. The engine noise and vibration was noticably different than the same year xstar with the one piece fiberglass floor. It also feels more luxurious, more of a living room feel to it. He had the optional "carpet saver" on the floor that allowed him to pull it out and let dry so that he never got that mildew smell that is common with this design. Plus, the carpet saver just made the already plush floor even softer. I loved it and so did the wife. another buddy has the lsv with young kids and does not have the carpet saver. he says he can smell the mildew sometimes, I never have. there is noticable difference in interior engine noise and vibration in boats such as mine with snap/magnet carpet over fiberglass.

I am bummed that the trend is going to the all fiberglass design as I think the carpets pros way out weigh the cons. I too think that the one piece is cheaper, easier, and less labor intensive, and also do not believe that it makes the boat more "solid". all the 2000+ bus feel as solid as the 2000+ mc's i have driven. even my 98 tige with a built wood carpeted floor was super solid, even with 3200 lbs ballast.

alan, you seem like a nice guy and have been handling yourself well the second half of this thread, even as you get lamb basted by these guys... but you unfortunately are a mc dealer/salesman, and you are now part of a company that has a bad sales reputation. I have experienced the same "nautique mystique" from mastercraft salesmen as these other guys, and many of my friends have too. Nobody I know, except for one guy who is the type that needs to have the "best of the best" has a mastercraft, and I believe it is because of the sales situation.

every other boat company salesman that I have gone too usually speaks %80 about the boat we are looking at, there are slams towards other boat manufacturers, but very little. If you tell them of another boat you are looking at, they will show you where their boat is better, and of course, not show you where their boat is lacking. but man, walk into a mc dealership and it feels as if they are trying to get you to believe that every other boat company sucks, leaving you with no other option but to buy a mastercraft, even though you know very little about the boat you are looking at. it didn't work on me, or anyone else on my lake. the mc dealer is the closest to my lake, and i have not seen one mastercraft wakeboat newer than 06. i have seen an 09 ski boat of some sort, x-7 or x-9?

hopefully you can take all this criticism with an open mind and maybe move your dealership forward and improve mc's reputation in your area.
Old    RPenner (pennery)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-27-2012, 1:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
I'm sorry to say, but if you believed the "hull plug" song and dance then you DID in fact fall for a sales pitch.

Let me ask you a simple question... what is the heaviest element in a wakeboat? If your answer is fiberglass, then you are correct.

So if MC's fiberglass is 2x as thick as the competition, why aren't their boats 2x as heavy? The reality is some are heavier by a few hundred pounds, some are lighter.

When I was shopping for my first boat in 2009, the local MC dealer showed me the hull plugs and laughed at me when I said I was considering an MB. Then a year later, that same dealer scored the MB franchise. Guess what... they don't trash MB anymore. Instead they sell 2 MB's for every 1 MC. How funny is that?

So back to the original question... if MC's fiberglass is 2x as thick, how come an X-15 weights 3,575 lbs. and a TWB weighs 3,900 lbs?

I have talked to a very experienced boat designer who has worked for multiple boat builders. He told me that "hull plug" trick is just that... a trick. MC selectively takes those plugs from certain areas of the hull... thick on the MC, thin on the competition. The entire boat is not that thick, and the entire boat on the compeition is not as thin as they show. It's an apples-to-oranges comparison, but most ignorant buyers assume the fiberglas thickness is the same everywhere.

As I said previously, I have no axe to grind with MC boats. And I have no reason to defend Bu. I think both are sweet. But MC sales tactics really turn me off. And Alan hasn't done anything in this thread to change that perception. Lots of high level statements represented as "facts." Like saying that VLX hasn't changed in 10 years. That's not a fact. It's quite simply a lie (complete hull redesign in 2009, new tower in 2010). That's why I keep speaking up. I'm super sensitive to that crap regardless of brand.
I still don't understand why this topic even comes up. Don't the majority of the manufacturers have LIFETIME hull warranty? I met a few guys at our Calgary Boat show that had Skier's Choice boats and both were 2008 model years that were back at the factory getting a new top deck and new hull due to the amount of Gel Coat cracking. I guess they had a problem in that particular year with the Gel Coat however they were really happy with the warranty service from Skier's Choice.
I also prefer the carpeted seat bases in the Malibu (aside from the MXZ). Less fiberglass to stub my toes on...
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-27-2012, 1:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
When I was shopping for my first boat in 2009, the local MC dealer showed me the hull plugs and laughed at me when I said I was considering an MB. Then a year later, that same dealer scored the MB franchise. Guess what... they don't trash MB anymore. Instead they sell 2 MB's for every 1 MC. How funny is that?
Maybe Alan can tell you the markup difference between an MC and an MB since he has sold both. From what I have heard, there's a lot of markup in the MB which means more profit for the dealer. If he doesn't want to give specifics, he could just say which one has more markup. Also, from a dealer standpoint, they can probably buy 2 MB's for the price of 1 MC and make twice the profit. Simple business there.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-27-2012, 1:21 PM Reply   
You guys are unbelievable. I never once said that Malibus fall apart. I never said that the VLX is unchanged in 10 years. I never talked about hull thickness. I never used any sales tactics. Only my observations through working on or riding behind all of the different manufacturer's boats over the past 15 years.

IXFE, I expect better out of you man. Did I try to sell you an MC when you called me last Spring for advice? Did I give you some silly sales pitch? No and No. I recommended that you stick with MB.

I do not use negative sales tactics. Believe me, I could, you would not believe the encyclopedia of pictures of MAJOR warranty issues that I have collected over the years. I do not, because I have chosen the be in the boat business as a lifelong career and I enjoy almost every minute of it. I had no idea 2 years ago that I would be selling MC's, but I am glad I am right now because they make a great boat.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-27-2012, 1:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
You guys are unbelievable. I never once said that Malibus fall apart. I never said that the VLX is unchanged in 10 years. I never talked about hull thickness. I never used any sales tactics. Only my observations through working on or riding behind all of the different manufacturer's boats over the past 15 years.

IXFE, I expect better out of you man. Did I try to sell you an MC when you called me last Spring for advice? Did I give you some silly sales pitch? No and No. I recommended that you stick with MB.

I do not use negative sales tactics. Believe me, I could, you would not believe the encyclopedia of pictures of MAJOR warranty issues that I have collected over the years. I do not, because I have chosen the be in the boat business as a lifelong career and I enjoy almost every minute of it. I had no idea 2 years ago that I would be selling MC's, but I am glad I am right now because they make a great boat.
If you have a ton of pictures of warranty issues I'm sure you could use that same book against MC if so desired. Just like cars Boats can come off the line bad, no matter what line it is
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       02-27-2012, 1:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
You guys are unbelievable. I never once said that Malibus fall apart. I never said that the VLX is unchanged in 10 years. I never talked about hull thickness. I never used any sales tactics. Only my observations through working on or riding behind all of the different manufacturer's boats over the past 15 years.
Alan, maybe you should read your posts????

"The VLX is an awesome boat, but when Malibu and their dealers expect to sell them for $70-$80k without any major improvements over 7 years other than some fancy dash work and a power wedge, I feel like it should be mentioned."
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       02-27-2012, 2:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
Off Topic but I just wanted to say I love your VLX. It is the exact color scheme I would do although I might drop the wakesetter graphics off and go really clean. Great looking boat. The pic looks like the NW. Where abouts?
Thank you, I am in Nor-Cal. I am enjoying the white/charcoal color combo, my last boat was all dark colors and it was a PIA to keep water spots off. I am pretty meticuluos about the gelcoat, white is much more user friendly for me. Possibly when the Wakesetter graphics begin to get old I will go naked.... no regrets on the VLX, so far, so good
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-27-2012, 2:49 PM Reply   
Chris, Your are RIGHT! No boats are perfect. Every manufacturer has their share of warranty work.

Travis, you are taking my response out of context. I was responding to IXFE's comment.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-27-2012, 4:01 PM Reply   
Alan,

You are a good guy, and we have always gotten along online. Usually we think alike. That's why your comments in this thread surprise me a lot. These are the statements that surprise the most. You can ignore if you want. Just thought you should know.

"MasterCraft is a decade ahead of Malibu when it comes to how the boat is built."

"Storage has always been a deal breaker for me with Malibu."

"Don't forget about the Ilmor engines, they are absolutely stronger than their Indmar counterparts."

"The X-30 is 500lbs heavier than the 23 LSV; it is pretty obvious where it comes from when you water test the two boats."

"I am always bewildered but that lack of quality I see in Malibu's."

"As a MC guy now, I am amazed that Malibu is priced anywhere close to MC."

"Malibu and their dealers expect to sell them for $70-$80k without any major improvements over 7 years other than some fancy dash work and a power wedge."



And yes, I did call you a year ago to ask about a leftover X-15 you had in stock (thanks for bring up private phone calls on a public forum... you are a real pro). If I recall the conversation correctly, you advised me that you could NOT sell me that boat even if you wanted to. It had to be two years old before you could sell out of territory.
Old    RPenner (pennery)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-27-2012, 4:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
Alan,

You are a good guy, and we have always gotten along online. Usually we think alike. That's why your comments in this thread surprise me a lot. These are the statements that surprise the most. You can ignore if you want. Just thought you should know.

"MasterCraft is a decade ahead of Malibu when it comes to how the boat is built."

"Storage has always been a deal breaker for me with Malibu."

"Don't forget about the Ilmor engines, they are absolutely stronger than their Indmar counterparts."

"The X-30 is 500lbs heavier than the 23 LSV; it is pretty obvious where it comes from when you water test the two boats."

"I am always bewildered but that lack of quality I see in Malibu's."

"As a MC guy now, I am amazed that Malibu is priced anywhere close to MC."

"Malibu and their dealers expect to sell them for $70-$80k without any major improvements over 7 years other than some fancy dash work and a power wedge."



And yes, I did call you a year ago to ask about a leftover X-15 you had in stock (thanks for bring up private phone calls on a public forum... you are a real pro). If I recall the conversation correctly, you advised me that you could NOT sell me that boat even if you wanted to. It had to be two years old before you could sell out of territory.
Theres a good business decision by Mastercraft... So if your Local Dealer does not have the boat you want in a leftover you can't buy one from a dealer that does? I can respect the need for protecting the dealers territory rights but that is just a bad move..
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-27-2012, 4:38 PM Reply   
These brand loyalty threads are always like a pack of wolves on whoever falls into the trap. Alan, sorry that you fell for a typical Wakeworld death trap thread. Keep on selling man! Good luck!
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       02-27-2012, 4:46 PM Reply   
sorry timmy, but you are wrong about alan falling into a trap. Go read the OP's original post and his requests, then go halfway down the first page to alans first post. He said things that were exactly what the OP said he did not want to hear. the thread was fine until alan pushes MC's typical salespitch to a guy who did not want it. Do not feel sorry for alan, feel sorry for the OP that his thread was jacked by us (myself included) to have a "informed consumer with commons sense" vs "mastercraft salesman" fight.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-27-2012, 5:01 PM Reply   
Please remind me again why I can not have an opinion?
Facts are facts.

"MasterCraft is a decade ahead of Malibu when it comes to how the boat is built." - Opinion

"Storage has always been a deal breaker for me with Malibu." - Opinion

"Don't forget about the Ilmor engines, they are absolutely stronger than their Indmar counterparts." - Fact

"The X-30 is 500lbs heavier than the 23 LSV; it is pretty obvious where it comes from when you water test the two boats." Fact. Opinion

"I am always bewildered but that lack of quality I see in Malibu's." Opinion

"As a MC guy now, I am amazed that Malibu is priced anywhere close to MC." Opinion

"Malibu and their dealers expect to sell them for $70-$80k without any major improvements over 7 years other than some fancy dash work and a power wedge." Opinion and exaggerated truth (No The VLX has not had any MAJOR revisions like TIGE, MC, and MB have in the pas 5 years.

"It had to be two years old before you could sell out of territory." No I did not say that. Yes, all major manufacturers prefer that consumers work through local dealers.

Thanks Timmy. As a veteran of this forum and industry, I was well aware of the can of worms that I opened. See you soon.
Old    Parker Caskey (wakesetter_WW)      Join Date: Jul 2010       02-27-2012, 5:09 PM Reply   
I normally don't chime in on these types of threads to avoid all of this so I am going to keep my comments about Alan vs. Wakeworld to myself; however, I will tell you a little bit about my past experience with my local MC dealer. I was ready to trade in my Malibu Sportster and upgrade to a wakeboat. At the time I had absolutely no brand loyalty. Went out to all the local dealers and looked at MC, Malibu, Tige and Nautique. I demoed a boat from three out of the four brands. When I went to the MC dealership all I heard about was how big of a piece of sh** I currently owned. As stated before from others, the deal bashed every other brand nonstop while I was there. Needless to say, I haven't been back since, didn't demo a boat and won't ever go back (not even for gear even though it's an hour closer than everywhere else).
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-27-2012, 5:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post

"Malibu and their dealers expect to sell them for $70-$80k without any major improvements over 7 years other than some fancy dash work and a power wedge." Opinion and exaggerated truth (No The VLX has not had any MAJOR revisions like TIGE, MC, and MB have in the pas 5 years.


Thanks Timmy. As a veteran of this forum and industry, I was well aware of the can of worms that I opened. See you soon.
The VLX redid their hull in 09, they went to Cat engines in 11, they completely changed their tower(in my opinion the G3 tower is one of the best lookiing towers on the market, and actually more funtional than many of the towers that are built to only have one pair of racks), changed their ballast system this year, added maliview in 09. They've had just as many changes as anyone else. Honestly the xstar up to 12( if it ever comes out) has been the same old same old far longer than the VLX. It's really the boat that competes wiht the VLX not the x30

If you're going to advertise your position, then you need to understand you represent your dealer and manufacture. You may have lost sales just based on this thread.
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            02-27-2012, 5:38 PM Reply   
He should go join the others over at the teamtalk water fountain.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-27-2012, 5:47 PM Reply   
I knew MasterCraft "hatred" runs rampant on WakeWorld, but I had no idea it was this bad. Its almost as bad as MB back in the day. Malibu owners WIN!
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-27-2012, 5:55 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
I knew MasterCraft "hatred" runs rampant on WakeWorld, but I had no idea it was this bad. Its almost as bad as MB back in the day. Malibu owners WIN!
I think you completely missed the whole point. It's not hatred of MC, it's hatred of someone coming in and wrongly dogging all the other brands with zero evidence to back it up. MC isn't hated, MC makes good boats, but it seems many of the dealers live off their brandname and somehow they think that name makes it better then the rest, it doesn't. If you'd come in here and said, "hey the x30 is a great boat and here is why....". you could even say "here are some of the things I don't like abou the bu", but when you start calling your misguided opinions facts and you start dogging the competition to build up MC you're going to get flak from most people.

Go visit WWS and Tommys, see how their sales guys handle other brands, see how they don't dog them, they build upon thier boats strengths wiht out having to find weakness in the cometition to do so. There is a reason they are the two best dealers in their area.
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            02-27-2012, 6:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
I knew MasterCraft "hatred" runs rampant on WakeWorld, but I had no idea it was this bad. Its almost as bad as MB back in the day. Malibu owners WIN!
Pretty sure its bc of MC guys like yourself and a MC dealer Ive had experience with that makes more hatred. I understand they pay your check but the opinions you made were not necessary that the OP specifically stated he didnt want. And no...Im not malibu.
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       02-27-2012, 6:50 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
I knew MasterCraft "hatred" runs rampant on WakeWorld, but I had no idea it was this bad. Its almost as bad as MB back in the day. Malibu owners WIN!
For the record, I am a fan of Mastercraft....

I dont understand how you post up pictures, comments, and what you call "facts" or "opinions" about how much better one boat is than the other and expect nobody to make a reply or ask a question? People are asking for examples of what you are writing... Some, like myself, are more interested in findout out how our boat is built, and how this becomes a problem for the consumer. You have not answered any of my questions or given any examples, which makes you appear like you do not know what you are talking about.

There is no "winner" here, just a bunch of unanswered questions.... with no evidence to back up your comments.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-27-2012, 6:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
Please remind me again why I can not have an opinion?
Facts are facts.

"MasterCraft is a decade ahead of Malibu when it comes to how the boat is built." - Opinion

"Storage has always been a deal breaker for me with Malibu." - Opinion

"Don't forget about the Ilmor engines, they are absolutely stronger than their Indmar counterparts." - Fact

"The X-30 is 500lbs heavier than the 23 LSV; it is pretty obvious where it comes from when you water test the two boats." Fact. Opinion

"I am always bewildered but that lack of quality I see in Malibu's." Opinion

"As a MC guy now, I am amazed that Malibu is priced anywhere close to MC." Opinion

"Malibu and their dealers expect to sell them for $70-$80k without any major improvements over 7 years other than some fancy dash work and a power wedge." Opinion and exaggerated truth (No The VLX has not had any MAJOR revisions like TIGE, MC, and MB have in the pas 5 years.

"It had to be two years old before you could sell out of territory." No I did not say that. Yes, all major manufacturers prefer that consumers work through local dealers.

Thanks Timmy. As a veteran of this forum and industry, I was well aware of the can of worms that I opened. See you soon.
Oh, I see... so now they are opinions. Earlier you stated them as FACTS (all caps cuz you really wanted to hammer that point home).

I can't believe I'm defending Malibu, but here goes again.

Even your FACTS are total BS.

On your Ilmor vs. Indmar FACT. I'm not saying you are wrong here. I just think you should provide some data, not your personal butt dyno. If you can't/won't, then you should stop bringing it up. As consumers, we only know what the manufacturers publish/market. As an industry insider, I suspect you can provide some data from a legit source. When you do that, I'm sure everybody will concede this point. But if you can't/won't give us data, then it's not a FACT. Sorry.

On your Malibu not doing anything in 7 years FACT. Here's a list for you from a casual boater. Again, I don't own Malibu so I have no reason to know this, yet I do. Why don't you??
  • New model in 2007, the VTX
  • New 23 LSV in 2008
  • New tower in 2008: available Illusion X,
  • New VLX in 2009,
  • New dash with Maliview in 2009, the first in the industry,
  • New tower again in 2010, the G3
  • New 24 LSV in 2011
  • New drop in carpet in 2011
  • New steering system (not just the wheel) in 2011
  • New drive, shift, etc. by wire in 2011
  • New model in 2012, the MXZ
  • New Response in 2012, the TXI
  • New ballast system in 2012, fastest filling pumps in the industry
  • New throttle response memory feature in 2012 (saves how you pull up a given rider as a preset)
The Malibu fans can chime in where I missed something. This is just what I remember from being a casual reader of WW. You work in the industry. Bu is your main competitor. And somehow don't know any of this?? Or just refuse to acknowledge it. Not sure which...

Once again, bush league to bring up a private phone call on a public forum, regardless of how you remember the conversation. But I will give you credit, you didn't show me any hull plugs on that phone call or offer me Cash Rewards. See, I give credit where it is due.

And finally, to say this is MC is hatred is just more denial. If I hated MC, would I have called you on that sweet black/red X-15 last year?? You of all people should know that WW holds dealers to a higher standard. You are not just some punk with an attitude. You are the Sales Manager at a major dealership. It's simply unprofessional to come to a public forum and spew this crap. At a minimum it shows poor judgement as a professional in the industry.
Old    RPenner (pennery)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-27-2012, 7:29 PM Reply   
To try and get this thread back on topic, does anyone have any real wake info on the X30?
The OP will have a great time in either boat I'm sure. I know the LSV is capable of putting out great wakes but I would like to see a loaded X30 surf wave to compare.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-27-2012, 7:38 PM Reply   
Man i had it easy with my cowbell ringing incident.
Old    Adam Balon (adam_balon)      Join Date: Jul 2003       02-27-2012, 7:50 PM Reply   
levi your post now has turned into a jock brand bashing forum. pick a boat brother..... love it, enjoy it. you got this man... youll make the right decision based on waht your needs are.
Old    L W (501s)      Join Date: Feb 2010       02-27-2012, 8:32 PM Reply   
Wow, one day and this thread EXPLODED. Amazing how much passion people have for both boat brands. I personally didn't mind Alans comments. I don't really mind anyone offering opinions with a reason or example to back it up either.

The malibu dealers has been great so far. Not much bashing at all and just pleasent to deal with.
The Mastercraft dealer has been the same. Good to deal with helpful, explained all the advantages of MC without really bashing.

I like them both very much. Both are amazing boats. My original observations still hold true, way more storage on the MC, similar quality all around, and the LSV has the known world class wake.

I won't go into price till I have made a deal, but both boats were within a couple k. They are VERY closely priced so much so that price isn't the biggest issue, quality and ease of use is. I will be happy to post pics and info about the deal Ive made once I do it this week hopefully. We are going to go look once more at both boats to make a decision. I will take a bunch of pics and throw them in the thread if people want. I looked forward to struggling with a decision like this for many years but now that its here its harder then expected.

Oh ya in terms of bashing, the MB dealer was by far the worst. He "explained" to me that both MC and Malibu are on the verge of Bankruptcy and are not profitable companies and that they probably wouldn't last. Mb however was doing very well in the marekt and the company is growing and remaining profitable. Not sure if this is "True" but it's what he said. This almost healped me steer away from MB.

And the tige was like $10k more then the X-30 or LSV. I thought that was crazy. I feel like I will be getting a good deal on either boat. I will be honest though, if the wake on the X-30 was as good or better then the LSV, then it would be an easier choice for me. My dealer is working to get me video/pics of the wake and is going to MC's pro's for feedback. Will their feedback be biased, duh! But pics help a lot and if I get some expect them to be posted up!

Good O'l WW! Bash-o-rama lol.
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            02-27-2012, 8:49 PM Reply   
Well said...glad you are doing thorough research and seem to know wht you want and have narrowed your search down! Keep us posted with your findings.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-27-2012, 8:59 PM Reply   
Okay, time out. I think I've been a little harsh on Alan. He's a good guy, and I would buy a boat from him if I lived in CO. That's the truth. We have had many conversations over the years about lots of different boats, and he is genuinely a straight shooter. I can't blame him too much of believing in MC. It is, afterall, a great boat.

Also, I need to retract my most recent statement about Alan not providing engine data. I somehow missed the charts on the page 1 (didn't show up on my iphone). I concede the point that Ilmor has more power. Wow... by those charts it has alot more. Now I want to feel it with my butt dyno!

But he is still wrong on the Bu changes over the past 7 years. Final score: Alan 1, IXFE 1. LOL!!

Finally, I am the only one here who hates what the internet sometimes turns us all into. I don't like feeling like an a-hole. Yet that's what I felt like driving home from work today. I pledge to be nicer to my internet friends.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-27-2012, 9:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
Okay, time out. I think I've been a little harsh on Alan.
I been on this site for a long time and you don't often see apologies like this. I think both Alan & IXFE are class acts.
Old    David Langston (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       02-28-2012, 2:48 AM Reply   
the steering wheel on the malibus is fugly
Old    Greg Miller (malibu23lsv)      Join Date: Feb 2012       02-28-2012, 5:00 AM Reply   
Just so everyone is clear...the Malibu VTX, VLX, 23 LSV and 247 LSV can all be purchased with a carpeted floor or fiberglass floor w/ snap in carpet. One nice advantage to installing seperate fiberglass floors instead of a full tub deck is that it is much easier to spray the floors a different color than the deck. On a tub floor, the manufacturer has to find an easy way to hide a gelcoat line and that is why we don't see that option available on the MXZ or the MC and Tige. On the other hand, the tub deck is much more manufacturing friendly on the assembly side since all the seat supports are built in during lamination...thus making the down side to the tub deck a more difficult build in lamination. There is not data showing one design is stronger than the other. The "old" technology bit doesn't really hold water here (when it comes to strength/boat life) other than ones preferance on styling of the interior as some people like the carpeted seat bases. I actually think it's nice for a company to have a variety of design options so that the customer can choose what he or she likes.

As for the stringers, X-30 foams inside the stringer grid and 23LSV is foamed under the floor and leaves the stringers hollow. Structurally, one is not really better than the other but leaving the stringers hollow does allow wiring and cables to be hidden in the stringer and the motor mounts are actually thru bolted. The biggest differance structurally between MC and Malibu is that on the 23LSV the deck is actually screwed and glued at the gunwhale and then the bulk heades and walk thru braces are actually glassed to deck and hull. This completely ties the two parts together. The MC is screwed together at the gunwhale and the deck is set on dog piles of adhesive during capping and no glass.
Old    Nauti 210 (brett33)      Join Date: Apr 2011       02-28-2012, 5:43 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
Man i had it easy with my cowbell ringing incident.
this made my morning!
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-28-2012, 7:14 AM Reply   
Robert - Hahaha.
Old    Dan (hco)      Join Date: Jun 2006       02-28-2012, 7:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 View Post
What issues have you had with the power wedges? I've had zero issues with mine, and I really haven't known anyone who has either.
In the end, just like cars, some boats are going to run forever and some are going to have issues. This is true across all boat makers.
My issues have been they flat out don't work. Also, nothing like being stranded in your lake late at night because the power wedge won't come all the way up, so the boat wont turn on (one hell of a safety feature right?). Also have had issues with the actuator's constantly breaking. On my friend's boats with power wedges, we just don't use them anymore.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-28-2012, 7:32 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hco View Post
My issues have been they flat out don't work. Also, nothing like being stranded in your lake late at night because the power wedge won't come all the way up, so the boat wont turn on (one hell of a safety feature right?). Also have had issues with the actuator's constantly breaking. On my friend's boats with power wedges, we just don't use them anymore.
Are you taling that they mechanically don't work or that they don't do the job they are supposed to?
Like I said mine has never had a problem, and I haven't heard of any real problems other than people breaking them off, and not calibrating them correctly. I honestly think they do a great job of adding a lip to malibus rampy wake.
Old    Brett B. (Brett_B)      Join Date: Sep 2010       02-28-2012, 7:36 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by malibu23lsv View Post
Just so everyone is clear...the Malibu VTX, VLX, 23 LSV and 247 LSV can all be purchased with a carpeted floor or fiberglass floor w/ snap in carpet. One nice advantage to installing seperate fiberglass floors instead of a full tub deck is that it is much easier to spray the floors a different color than the deck. On a tub floor, the manufacturer has to find an easy way to hide a gelcoat line and that is why we don't see that option available on the MXZ or the MC and Tige. On the other hand, the tub deck is much more manufacturing friendly on the assembly side since all the seat supports are built in during lamination...thus making the down side to the tub deck a more difficult build in lamination. There is not data showing one design is stronger than the other. The "old" technology bit doesn't really hold water here (when it comes to strength/boat life) other than ones preferance on styling of the interior as some people like the carpeted seat bases. I actually think it's nice for a company to have a variety of design options so that the customer can choose what he or she likes.

As for the stringers, X-30 foams inside the stringer grid and 23LSV is foamed under the floor and leaves the stringers hollow. Structurally, one is not really better than the other but leaving the stringers hollow does allow wiring and cables to be hidden in the stringer and the motor mounts are actually thru bolted. The biggest differance structurally between MC and Malibu is that on the 23LSV the deck is actually screwed and glued at the gunwhale and then the bulk heades and walk thru braces are actually glassed to deck and hull. This completely ties the two parts together. The MC is screwed together at the gunwhale and the deck is set on dog piles of adhesive during capping and no glass.
Wow. A very factual and informative post highlighting the differences between the two approaches. Not an uninformed (and flat out incorrect) broad brush comment like: "MasterCraft is a decade ahead of Malibu when it comes to how the boat is built."

Thank you malibu23lsv for shining some much needed light on this thread!
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-28-2012, 7:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett_B View Post
Wow. A very factual and informative post highlighting the differences between the two approaches. Not an uninformed (and flat out incorrect) broad brush comment like: "MasterCraft is a decade ahead of Malibu when it comes to how the boat is built."

Thank you malibu23lsv for shining some much needed light on this thread!
I agree, great post!
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-28-2012, 9:05 AM Reply   
Old    Darren Lamont (dlamont)      Join Date: Apr 2003       02-28-2012, 11:41 AM Reply   
question on Malibu's fiberglass floor, is there a drain? I didn't see one on the website or brochure. If you take water over the bow, where does all that water go?
Old    Chance Alex (calexan)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-28-2012, 11:54 AM Reply   
Yea there are two little drains slits in the back by the back seat where the water drains into the hull then its bilged out. Ive been known in my day to dip the bow when people are dozing off up front. Took out two iphones, and a digital camera in one swoop last summer. Whoops
Old    Greg Miller (malibu23lsv)      Join Date: Feb 2012       02-28-2012, 11:55 AM Reply   
No drain, water runs thru the crack between the floor and subfloor to the bilge. No need for a drain.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-28-2012, 12:03 PM Reply   
What happens when a Mastercraft takes water over the bow?..............It causes a LAWSUIT!!!!

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