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Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       02-22-2012, 2:45 PM Reply   
Wow, so incredibly scary how our own government is acknowledging the fact that they have no long-term plan. "We don't have a definitive solution to the long-term problem... We just don't like yours."

Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       02-22-2012, 4:55 PM Reply   
at least we can feel good that we will have a new administration at the helm next year
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-22-2012, 5:01 PM Reply   
^You're being sarcastic, right? Obama will win by a much bigger margin this time.
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       02-22-2012, 5:03 PM Reply   
"Obama will win by a much bigger margin this time."
Not if gas cost $5 a gallon!
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-22-2012, 5:44 PM Reply   
No matter what side of the political fence you're on, the subject discussed in that video should be scaring the hell out of people. While Republicans currently talk a the right game plan and conservative fiscal policy has long been part of their platform, that party's record, frankly, is no better than the Democrats. Washington, in it's entirety, has a big problem. Reckoning this, whenever we're forced to, will be very, very painful. It may be slow & drawn out or it may be quick & sudden. But either way, it won't be fun.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-22-2012, 6:05 PM Reply   
"Obama will win by a much bigger margin this time."
Not if gas cost $5 a gallon!"

It won't matter. All of the GOP's candidates (other than RP) want to invade Iran, so what do you think will happen to prices then?
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       02-22-2012, 6:11 PM Reply   
I agree Andy. Both sides have been ignoring the problem for way to long. There will be pain any way you slice it, but the longer we wait to address it, the more the pain is going to resemble that of Greece, Spain and Italy. I'm not 100% sure that a Republican president will make the hard choices we will need to get back on track, but I'm 99.9% sure that if Obama is re-elected, it's game over.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-22-2012, 10:23 PM Reply   
Thanks for posting that. Great vid and worth the watch. The substance of the debate is pretty informative ... And you are right, scary. Not scary because of the sound bite edit at the end of the clip, but because we will have too many retirees. Retirees vote and they vote their self interest. So our democracy is held hostage to them.

Is there a realistic alternative plan that a majority of voters will buy into? I'm skeptical.

I also LOL at the notion that whoever is in the white house for the next four years will make any difference to this outcome.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-23-2012, 7:23 AM Reply   
Obamas plan is to take over the country from within.Give amnesty to illegal immigrants if they go to college[our tax money] or join the armed forces[our tax money].That amounts to a free ride for most illegal immigrants. Muslims can come over join our armed forces and take over the country.911 WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. But the carefree americans can't see the forest for the trees.Obama is a slick talker who isn't a american.He wasn't born here and didn't go to school here.He is who Dependent Lazy Americans believe is their savior.Everyone needs to vote to save America.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-23-2012, 7:25 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
Obamas plan is to take over the country from within.Give amnesty to illegal immigrants if they go to college[our tax money] or join the armed forces[our tax money].That amounts to a free ride for most illegal immigrants. Muslims can come over join our armed forces and take over the country.911 WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. But the carefree americans can't see the forest for the trees.Obama is a slick talker who isn't a american.He wasn't born here and didn't go to school here.He is who Dependent Lazy Americans believe is their savior.Everyone needs to vote to save America.
LOL! I can't tell if you believe that or if it's satire, but either way, great post!
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-23-2012, 7:34 AM Reply   
Obama is so slick he went back in time and made 911 happen. Then he possessed Dick Cheny and puppet mastered the zombie Bush into invading Iraq. Even the Galactic Federation of Light and their fleet of alien starships were powerless against Obama.
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-23-2012, 7:52 AM Reply   
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ment-debt.html
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-23-2012, 8:16 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottog1979 View Post
Quote:
The figures include children, the retired and others who do not participate in the labour force.
Go Gingrich! Get them children a job.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-23-2012, 9:01 AM Reply   
So let's get a discussion going here rather than beat one another up over ideological grounds.

The background is that our grandparents came home from WWII, got busy, and pumped out a whole bunch of baby boomers. Those boomers are now set to retire. They have worked their entire lives with an expectation of social security and medicare, and within the last decade, a prescription drug benefit too. At the same time, our healthcare system has improved to the point that people live longer, at a significantly greater expense. We are better at prolonging life, but it's expensive. That expense, as is explained in the video David posted, may do us in financially. Clearly from the charts, the expense makes Bush's and Obama's profligate spending look downright frugal.

All of those boomers, with their expectation of benefits, vote. In fact retirees vote much more regularly than the rest of us. So not only are they a big segment of the population, but they are also overrepresented at the polls. Seems unlikely that they are going to give up their benefits (and one could argue that after a lifetime of paying in, they "deserve" them).

What's your solution?
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       02-23-2012, 9:12 AM Reply   
I don't think you can take away benefits from retirees or near retirees because they planned their lives around the current system. However, we do need to find a cutoff age or age range and start making some changes. Those that are grandfathered into the current system shouldn't have a problem voting for something like this because it doesn't effect them.

Those changes need to include raising the retirement age. Back when social security was implemented, hardly anyone collected it because nobody lived that long. Now, pretty much everyone taps into it because we've extended life expectancy so much. Even if you disagree with the original implementation of social security, it was done in a way that was somewhat sustainable if we would have tied retirement age to average life expectancy. Obviously, it's not that simple and there are a lot of other factors, but that's the heart of it.

Look on the bright side, we just need to adjust from 65 to 70 or 75. Greece has to adjust from 53 to 70 or 75...yeah, right!
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-23-2012, 9:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakeworld View Post
I don't think you can take away benefits from retirees or near retirees because they planned their lives around the current system. However, we do need to find a cutoff age or age range and start making some changes. Those that are grandfathered into the current system shouldn't have a problem voting for something like this because it doesn't effect them.

Those changes need to include raising the retirement age. Back when social security was implemented, hardly anyone collected it because nobody lived that long. Now, pretty much everyone taps into it because we've extended life expectancy so much. Even if you disagree with the original implementation of social security, it was done in a way that was somewhat sustainable if we would have tied retirement age to average life expectancy. Obviously, it's not that simple and there are a lot of other factors, but that's the heart of it.

Look on the bright side, we just need to adjust from 65 to 70 or 75. Greece has to adjust from 53 to 70 or 75...yeah, right!
My fear is that like Greece, we won't be able to make painful but doable changes when there is still time. Ideologues on both sides of the aisle argue about marginal issues and ignore the big ones. So we postpone and postpone and borrow a little more here and a little more there. I have very little faith that anything changes based on who is in the WH.

Realistically, the only thing that gets us out of this mess is a sustained economic boom.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-23-2012, 9:42 AM Reply   
What we need to do is lower the cost of health care. We have a heath insurance system the maximizes profit by maximizing costs. Other countries provide healthcare at a much lower per capita cost. We need to do the same. We gone long past the point of diminishing returns.

They are talking about lowering Medicare payouts. Let's continue by taxing HI benefits and give the worker the option of taking the benefit as pay and buying the insurance himself. Get rid of the association of employment and health insurance. That is what has allowed hyperinflation of healthcare. Most workers who buy HI aren't buying it with dollars out of their pocket. They are buying it with untaxed use it or lose it dollars.
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-23-2012, 11:26 AM Reply   
John, the Medicare system is broken—too much waste and inflated payments—just ask anybody who uses it. For example, if a patient needs a heating pad, that patient cannot just go down to Wal-Mart and buy a ten dollar heating pad, he/she will either have to rent one or buy one from a distributor that is approved to take Medicare payments. Now how one gets on the list to be a distributor is questionable; however, the heating pad will be considerably more. My point is, until the government does an adequate job of monitoring their pay outs, the price of health care is likely to stay inflated and in the red no matter what is done. Surprisingly, no one has mentioned the cost of the new health care proposal that will be enacted if Obama is reelected. When those payments roll in, I'd say Geithner's scale is not pointed upward enough no matter what the economy is doing.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-23-2012, 12:02 PM Reply   
Ron, I hear ya. But it's the whole medical system. If you are on standard ins and are prescribed a heating pad you get it from a "medical provider" and ins pays. No difference.

When my wife wanted a oxygen concentrator she couldn't have one because a prescription is required. You don't need a prescription for a cigarette but you need a prescription for oxygen. There's your first clue something is wrong. Not wanting to let that stop me I went online and found a no prescription required (don't ask, don't tell?) place that would drop ship me a concentrator from a distributor for less than half the cost of any local or online medical store that required a prescription.
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-23-2012, 1:39 PM Reply   
That is a big part of the problem. In addition, the cost for the doctor to be in business is staggering. For example, malpractice insurance for just a general practitioner can run over $100,000 a year, some surgeons pay $300,000 or more, in addition to paying the staff to manage the overwhelming amount of paper work required, not to mention the 50% tax bracket they are placed in. Plus, with the HIPAA law, most tests have to be repeated anytime a patient changes doctors--the whole industry is a mess and will be further complicated by the new health care laws, when they are finally written.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-23-2012, 1:52 PM Reply   
I'm not so sure that HIPAA causes tests to be repeated so much as people aren't really provided their records without asking. Doctors should provide and insist that patients keep a copy of records/imaging/labs in their own files. And it really would be useful to have a central database for health records. You can always sign a release for records with your current doctor, but the reality is that some history goes years back and nobody goes to the trouble of looking for records that may or may not exist. Sometimes previous doctor names are forgotten.

I had a kidney stone a couple years back and got a CAT scan in the ER. The urologist wanted me to have another a couple weeks later. It was free after insurance but I declined as I didn't want the radiation. I think the docs are just covering their butts and testing like crazy.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-23-2012, 8:21 PM Reply   
Did you know that many Alzheimers patients suffer kidney failure in the final months of life much after the person no longer recongnizes their family members?

Did you know that our tax dollars pay $1000 per day ($2000 per day cost to the tax payer) for dialysis to sustain these patients in nursing homes?

Talk about a waste of resources.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-23-2012, 8:58 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddad View Post
Did you know that many Alzheimers patients suffer kidney failure in the final months of life much after the person no longer recongnizes their family members?

Did you know that our tax dollars pay $1000 per day ($2000 per day cost to the tax payer) for dialysis to sustain these patients in nursing homes?

Talk about a waste of resources.
LOL, you want to be on the death panel?
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-24-2012, 8:04 AM Reply   
"I'm not so sure that HIPAA causes tests to be repeated so much as people aren't really provided their records without asking" You are correct, John. However, what may be slowing the database’s development down may be some of the lawsuits being filed against the use of HIPPA. For example, in one case, the client is worried about potential employers refusing him a job because of medical issues, so this person wants limited access his personal data. Sometimes I wonder if the US implemented a law stating "The loser pays all court cost, including the opposing side's costs too” may eliminate a lot of the problems. http://library.ahima.org/xpedio/grou...me=bok1_021100
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-24-2012, 8:36 AM Reply   
Ron, that's easy to say until you get diagnosed with something that puts you at risk of early death. I totally understand not wanting to share that information and being very concerned about all of my medical information being centralized where the man, a hacker, or a prospective employer can discover it. If you were choosing between two 40 year old candidates for a job and you could find out that one of the two, though appearing to be perfectly healthy, had a family history of early heart disease, how could that not play a factor in who you hire? Even if both were equally competent, chances are the guy with the heart disease would end up costing your insurance plan a bundle.

I totally get the privacy concerns.
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-24-2012, 8:47 AM Reply   
This thread is an example of exactly how the big issues never get resolved or due attention. The discussion has turned to a distraction about health insurance, heart disease, HIPAA, and death panels. Does anyone think that a debate about these specifics will offer real big-picture solutions? Certainly, health insurance and health costs are one of the issues in the debt/deficit issue, but there are 10's if not 100's more. At nearly every turn, political discussion digresses to focusing on a single tree while the forest burns.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-24-2012, 8:55 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottog1979 View Post
This thread is an example of exactly how the big issues never get resolved or due attention. The discussion has turned to a distraction about health insurance, heart disease, HIPAA, and death panels. Does anyone think that a debate about these specifics will offer real big-picture solutions? Certainly, health insurance and health costs are one of the issues in the debt/deficit issue, but there are 10's if not 100's more. At nearly every turn, political discussion digresses to focusing on a single tree while the forest burns.
Did you watch the video that is the genesis of the thread?
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-24-2012, 9:17 AM Reply   
Yes. 4:10 "People are organizing their lives based on government promises being made today." This statement is where the major issue lies.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-24-2012, 9:35 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottog1979 View Post
Yes. 4:10 "People are organizing their lives based on government promises being made today." This statement is where the major issue lies.
So you think it's a bad idea to address the two biggest government promises (medicare and social security) first?
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-24-2012, 9:56 AM Reply   
Did I say that? Is there somewhere in this thread where Social Security is being discussed?

The bottom line is, nearly every sector of the economy that interacts with government is going to have to do with less. Period. The government cannot sustain it's current level of promises. It's only a question of when. We're over-promised everywhere. There is waste in defense, prevailing wage contract issues, medicare, social security, social transfer payment programs, foreign aide, government pensions, special interest tax breaks, the educational system, everywhere. Everyone or every group has sacred cows but the reality is that there can be none.

Debating over a false and emotionally-charged topic like "death squads" takes energy from the real issue at hand. That's my point.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-24-2012, 10:14 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottog1979 View Post
Did I say that? Is there somewhere in this thread where Social Security is being discussed?

The bottom line is, nearly every sector of the economy that interacts with government is going to have to do with less. Period. The government cannot sustain it's current level of promises. It's only a question of when. We're over-promised everywhere. There is waste in defense, prevailing wage contract issues, medicare, social security, social transfer payment programs, foreign aide, government pensions, special interest tax breaks, the educational system, everywhere. Everyone or every group has sacred cows but the reality is that there can be none.

Debating over a false and emotionally-charged topic like "death squads" takes energy from the real issue at hand. That's my point.
Great post, and I think you and I agree about a lot. Sacred cows and shared sacrifice are two sides of the same coin. How do we get the American people to consent to goring their own oxen? For instance we know healthcare costs are out of control and that most of those costs come in the last six month's of a person's life, but mention "rationing" and the debate goes off the rails.

The fact is, rationing will have to occur, and that it won't be fair -- the very wealthy will still have the right and ability to spend more for their care than the poor and middle classes.

The problems aren't a mystery (to me). What I cannot fathom is how we get a majority of the American people on board to solve the problem now and to keep their backbone and resolve for the decade(s) it will take to clean up the mess?

Dictatorship can have its advantages....
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-24-2012, 11:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
How do we get the American people to consent to goring their own oxen?
BINGO ! This is the issue. And it involves pain for everyone.

Everyone wants to gore someone else's ox. Whatever they are involved with is, of course, truly sacred. It's always someone else causing the problem. The bottom line is, the problem touches all of us.

Politicians feed off of someone else causing the problem (the opposite side's base and platform). Politicians play off valid and important issues held by either side/everyone, demonizing the same old tired cliche's about opposing political views in order to gain and stay in power. There is enough grain of truth in most of the arguments to keep the distracted debate continuing as the main problem grows. Current politics sells the public and the real issues short in order to get their turn at the luxuries, celebrity and power of the office. The real problem is very big and very difficult. Better to get your little piece of the dwindling goodies than take on the difficult problem. Human nature. Eventually, however, the realities force a resolution. It will be painful.

Damn, I've become a cynic.
Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       02-24-2012, 2:48 PM Reply   
you guys are right

read: The EndGame: The end of the debt supercycle and how it changes everything, by John Mauldin

It, among other things, talks about the specific paths that other countries have taken and where there are now.
He then lays out the different options and philosophies that the U.S. considers and the pros and cons of each. Good book, but kinda scary.....
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-24-2012, 5:51 PM Reply   
Everything is Obama's fault. Even the three crappy GOP candidates are Obama's fault.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-24-2012, 8:10 PM Reply   
Quit spreading the myth that Europe has cheaper healthcare. Have Americans start paying 17% a year for their healthcare insurance and still have to pay up to 25% of the bill. Then add in the cost that the working man/ woman have to pay for the doctors to go to school on the public dole and their healthcare is not cheaper.

On the cost of healthcare, we don't have an insurance company making insurance more expensive. We have people using their "insurance" too much. You don't use insurance. Do that with your car and see how much it costs you. You are asking for a service plan and the more you use it, the more it will cost. Simple economics. The other side of it is when a doctor knows he has so many people with these service plans, the doctor will raise the cost to what the market will stand. Simple economics.

Just remember, medicare has 25% of the people in it but has 50% of all healthcare cost.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-25-2012, 5:27 AM Reply   
"On the cost of healthcare, we don't have an insurance company making insurance more expensive. We have people using their "insurance" too much. You don't use insurance. Do that with your car and see how much it costs you. You are asking for a service plan and the more you use it, the more it will cost."

Let me ask you this, has your health insurance premium ever been reduced? I haven't been to the doctor (used my insurance) in 2+ years and that time was a "check-up". Funny thing is, the cost has gone up each year. How is that "simple economics"? And if you are not supposed to "use insurance", why do most offer no co-pay's on wellness visits?
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-25-2012, 11:01 AM Reply   
^^ Again, distracted minutia discussion (co-pays, evil insurance companies, etc.). Bigger picture is what is needed.

Check out the last two paragraphs:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/24/opinio...tml?hpt=hp_bn9
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-25-2012, 9:51 PM Reply   
They offer no-copay visits because they move the costs. You just answered your own question. They offer the no co-pay because the doctors move their costs to the other things they offer or they use to attract business. How much does it cost when they can attract more of your insured business that pays vs other that they have to bill and fight for their money. They know the companies that offer healthcare will pay out and they have. Thus everything you buy has gone up. Answer the question. if you use your car insurance what happens? Why in the world would you think it is different. I don't understand how people can not understand that businesses are in the business to maximize profit and lawyers are in the business to maximize their profit. Lawyers write laws thus the payouts are stacked as well. It is just like the California housing market a few years ago. As long as banks were willing to pay, the appraisers and real estate people were willing to write it up as much as they could. Same with doctors. They do the same. They have insurance companies willing to pay, they will raise the costs. As long as their are companies willing to pay the insurance, they cost will continue to go up.

Regardless of all this, our insurance is not out of range with the rest of the world. Europe pays dearly for their insurance. Did you know that you pay 5% for your lifetime so you can get medicare at retirement age? You don't even know you do most likely.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-26-2012, 6:23 AM Reply   
"Regardless of all this, our insurance is not out of range with the rest of the world."

Oh really? Do some research (this took me about 30 secs to find) before you post outlandish statements.

Name:  Medical-Costs-1.jpg
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Size:  135.4 KB
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-26-2012, 6:26 AM Reply   
"Answer the question. if you use your car insurance what happens? Why in the world would you think it is different."

Well, answer the converse of your question. If you DON'T use your car insurance what happens? Why in the world would you think it is different?
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-26-2012, 10:26 AM Reply   
Low hanging fruit is the "quality". That is subjective. It is very difficult to quantify that. Quality is also not a indication of access. You can have what you perceive as a quality visit but not be able to get in for months.

Again, your numbers lie to you. The US is very wealthy and they are talking absolute numbers. A visit in California costs me more absolute money than a visit in Indiana. To the person in each state, their relative visit will hit them the same percentage to their pocket but the person goes to Indiana and finds great value and says it's cheap. I know this for a fact because we had to do for my wife a few years ago when she got sick on vacation.

Start paying 17% of your income for life for your insurance like they do in Europe and lets hear how much start bitching.

I have to explain this over and over to you people that like to keep pulling out those charts. WE DO NOT PAY FOR OUR DOCTORS TO GO TO SCHOOL. WE DO NOT PAY FOR THE NURSES TO GO TO SCHOOL. WE DO NOT PAY FOR THE PHARMACIST TO GO SCHOOL. Those costs are not in their numbers. They also are not allowed to sue doctors like they do here in the US.

They are trying to compare apples to oranges and you fall for it.

I have to ask why you can not understand basic business practices. Even if I don't use my insurance is still creeps up because of over all risk and real cost of repair. You don't seem to understand the insurance companies are responding to the market costs. You may not be using your insurance, but others in your group are. Then the business/ doctors are raising their costs to maximize profit. The doctors/ business have to respond to costs of their liability costs, their regulation compliance costs, their education costs, their employees cost of living and so on. So yes, you will see costs rise regardless to a certain extent but like anything, if I have a product and I have 10,000 potential paying customers of various sorts and I can only service 1000 of them, I will raise my prices to such an extent that maybe 1500 of them can afford me. That way I am always at 100% duty factor and maximizing my profit. Everyone having insurance has provided the paying customers.

Have you noticed even Vet bills for animals has went way up? Guess what. They have started offering insurance for your animals. People are paying the insurance on installments, thus the vets have raised their rates in accordance with the amount of money available.
Old    Akadirtbikingdad (wakeboardingdad)      Join Date: Aug 2008       02-26-2012, 10:59 AM Reply   
At 1:31. What happened here?
Attached Images
 
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-26-2012, 11:56 AM Reply   
So Delta, it's the doctor's offices making all of the money and not the poor insurance companies?
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-26-2012, 12:06 PM Reply   
"Again, your numbers lie to you. The US is very wealthy and they are talking absolute numbers. A visit in California costs me more absolute money than a visit in Indiana. To the person in each state, their relative visit will hit them the same percentage to their pocket but the person goes to Indiana and finds great value and says it's cheap. I know this for a fact because we had to do for my wife a few years ago when she got sick on vacation."

Again, you lie to yourself. There is a graph that clearly shows the cost of US healthcare relative to GDP.
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-26-2012, 2:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
. They also are not allowed to sue doctors like they do here in the US.
Ding...Ding....Ding!! This is a huge factor for increased cost across the board for Americans. Doctors are people too and make mistakes. Even if the Dr did everything he could, a lawyer can make millions by swaying 12 people that weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty. It cost millions even if the lawsuit is successfully defended.

Our legal system is a double edged sword. It can protect, but in many cases it is costing Americans billions because there is always a plaintiff & lawyer looking to hit the lottery. business from health care to McDonalds must raise cost to cover liability & insurance. The only true winners are the lawyers.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-26-2012, 2:35 PM Reply   
^If this were true, how come medical costs in Texas have risen since the implementation of their tort reform law in 2004?
Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       02-26-2012, 2:46 PM Reply   
"....how come medical costs in Texas have risen..."

could it be the mass influx of illegals?
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-26-2012, 3:53 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter View Post
Even if the Dr did everything he could, a lawyer can make millions by swaying 12 people that weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty.
Since when is jury duty a "smart thing to get out of" rather than a civic duty?
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-26-2012, 7:45 PM Reply   
GDP is not money in the public pocket Jeremy. That is money to American companies. It means nothing. Why don't you address how much would healthcare cost if we factor in the money they pay for the hundreds of thousands per doctor, nurse and so on for their education.

Like I said, start taking out 17% of your income and apply it directly to your insurance for your lifetime.

Now now Cliff. We all know that illegals are free. We can ignore their cost. They only cost California 9 billion a year in education (early 2000's study) and are over 1/3 the state prison population and send 25 billion a year out of the country. Nothing to see here.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-26-2012, 7:50 PM Reply   
Also Jeremy, Insurance companies only make around 3% to 5% profit. Sure they have a piece of the action but we are talking 20% to 30% problems. Insurance companies are only passing along costs to employers from the doctors and drug companies. As long as companies are paying, the insurance companies will continue to tell the companies how much money it will cost them to provide the service. That is basic business. How much the insurance company demands for the service depends on doctors costs and overall usage. That is an absolute. It again is basic business.
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-26-2012, 8:28 PM Reply   
How many of you people lobbying for social medicine have ever been to one of these amazing European countries and experienced their medicine? Well I had the fortune of living in Germany for two years and let me tell you. They bitched about it there too. First off I was there in 2006-2007 and they were paying 6.50 a euro for a liter of gas... Why so much more than here? And that was 5 years ago!! Imagine having half to three fourths of your check going to the government. I knew people that worked good jobs forty hours a week who couldn't afford to leave their parents. And for what? I did have the unfortunate luck to visit a local ER and I waited forever. This was with me having symptoms similar to a heart attack. They were just too overcrowded with people to see me. I remember this one girl who said she got paid time off from work for I think like a year and a government check for having kids on top of child support from the soldiers she was trapping. So what did she do? Kept popping them out of course.
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-26-2012, 8:31 PM Reply   
Grass is always greener...
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-27-2012, 2:16 PM Reply   
"I did have the unfortunate luck to visit a local ER and I waited forever"

As opposed to where, here in the US?

"Also Jeremy, Insurance companies only make around 3% to 5% profit."

More obscure, ambiguous numbers. If you are worried about insurance company profits;

"In the midst of a deep economic recession, America's health insurance companies increased their profits by 56 percent in 2009, a year that saw 2.7 million people lose their private coverage.

The nation's five largest for-profit insurers closed 2009 with a combined profit of $12.2 billion"
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-27-2012, 8:10 PM Reply   
Yep the wait sure was alot longer than any ER visit I have ever had to make in the us. That is why I brought it up.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-27-2012, 8:46 PM Reply   
Again Jeremy, you are looking at absolute numbers. I am not worried in the least bit about insurance profits. I am interested in the truth though. What does people losing their private insurance have to do with anything? Private coverage is almost always provided by those evil corporations. So the insurance companies made 12 billion. The illegal mexicans send over 25 billion plus out of the country every year to mexico. Matter of fact that is the third leading influx of money to the Mexican government behind oil and something else. The number the insurance companies made are still 3 to 5 percent profit which is low for most businesses. For a math major, you sure have a hard grasp that percent of a absolute number can still be a relative low overall percentage. How much have the doctors and hospitals numbers gone up? I bet you will be shocked. How much has the lawyers income gone up? My wife went to emergency because she was having chest pains. They charged her insurance over $8000 for hooking her up to the EKG and taking some blood. You tell me who is making money?
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-28-2012, 6:42 AM Reply   
^They can charge whatever they want, it's up to the insurance company on whether they pay or not. Illegal immigrants have nothing to do with the argument.

"What does people losing their private insurance have to do with anything?"

Well, say I owned a store and I lost several customers. Wouldn't you expect that my profits would suffer slightly?.

And you have been avoiding my question that I posed to you several posts earlier on why my premium has not been reduced considering I have not used my health insurance in 2+ years. Are you in the insurance business or something?

Last edited by wake77; 02-28-2012 at 6:48 AM.
Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       02-28-2012, 6:57 AM Reply   
Illegals don't have anything to do with rising medical costs? That has to be the most naive thing that I have ever seen posted on this site.

why premiums haven't been reduced? Because when Obama had the chance to really fix our healthcare system, he didn't.

I thought the point of this post was that the some want a short term fix that will send the graph sharply upward after a few years, and others want a long term fix that actually eliminates the graphs sharp upward spike.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-28-2012, 7:41 AM Reply   
I guess I need to repost this so that people can understand why healthcare is so expensive...

Get rid of the association of employment and health insurance. That is what has allowed hyperinflation of healthcare. Most workers who buy HI aren't buying it with dollars out of their pocket. They are buying it with untaxed use it or lose it dollars.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-28-2012, 11:28 AM Reply   
I did address why your premiums did not drop. I addressed it at least twice. You obviously can not grasp the concept of socialization. What is even more ironic is you are tied to socialistic business (insurance) and don't seem to like the results. Just because you have not used your insurance does not mean other people are not using it. If they use it, your insurance costs will still go up period. The insurance company also has to trend future costs, regulation costs, and so on. You have to understand that you get in one accident and you could easily break the bank. Have you paid a couple hundred thousand in premiums yet? Well, you are expecting your insurance company pay that and the insurance company has to plan according through statistics to hedge the odds that you will or someone else in your insurance pool will break the bank. What you have to figure out is why would it cost you a couple hundred thousand or $8000 for blood tests and a EKG like my wife? Why would your insurance be expected to pick that up?

Jeremy, like I said. I do not for the life of me can not figure out how in the world you as a math major can not figure out long term trends and statistics. It is in the math and the reality is front of you. John is echoing what I have been saying for a long time. Money in the system makes the system get more expensive. The market will always maximize profit. Available money = more potential profit. Insurance companies (even though they are making more absolute money) are only a 5% problem. We are talking 20% to 30% problems. If the math is pointing a different direction then you have to look in that direction. And no, I am not in the insurance industry (I have my own contempt for that industry). My career is in lasers and electro optics.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-28-2012, 11:33 AM Reply   
Also Jeremy. Of course insurance companies can pay for what they want and the public is up in arms about it (mainly the democrats who what socialized medicine). Insurance companies have to kick some people off the coverage because they are costing too much and the insurance companies are still only making a small profit percentage wise. That is what democrats keep bitching about. It all boils down to a obvious lack of education in regards to how money works.
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-28-2012, 2:17 PM Reply   
"The nation's five largest for-profit insurers closed 2009 with a combined profit of $12.2 billion" Jeremy, what's wrong with a company making a profit? If you think premims are high now, just wait until insurance companies have unlimited libalities.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-28-2012, 6:10 PM Reply   
^Never said anything wrong with making a profit. That is SE insinuating that insurance companies are barely scraping by.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-29-2012, 8:50 PM Reply   
Not saying they are scraping by but the 12 billion is the insurance industry as a whole. that is every single different company. like I said mexicans send double that out of the country each year. What I am explaining is health care is going up by more than 5% a year. The jumps are way more than 5%, so who is getting the money and who is making that money available? Bitching about insurance companies is doing nothing because the math tells me that is not where the problem is. Does not matter who is paying for the insurance (private or government) is not going to fix the problem if the issue is not the middle man. Then the other thing I am saying is people don't want the European model because it will cost you dearly if you really add up the real costs of their model.
Old    Randy Paul (wakeskatethis)      Join Date: May 2011       02-29-2012, 9:18 PM Reply   
i think this guy has a clue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjd0-aVCrec

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