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Old    falcon_v            02-15-2012, 7:56 PM Reply   
I was wondering if the PCM 343 is enough motor for this boat or should I step up to the 409 I really dont want to spend the 4200.00 on 66 more horsepower but don't want the re-great on not steping up. Right now I have a 350 MAG 315HP in a 2008 Centurion Falcon V and always wished I had more power so now its time to upgrade boats just want to get it right. Thanks in advance.
Old    D.F.T.R. Josh (downfortheride)      Join Date: Jun 2005       02-15-2012, 8:31 PM Reply   
What elevation are you at? Do a search on hear, a guy posted a lot of info about the 2 different motors. I know UT elevation I have a buddie looking at the 343 with the plate and a low end prop. Now stock ballast + 450 might be all that is running. If your thinking stock weight and Reg to Advanced rider you should be fine. Weighted up or full boat with full ballast all the time I would look at the 409. Look into the plate no matter what direction you go.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-15-2012, 8:38 PM Reply   
His other post said something about buying an MB from Texas so I assume he is from somewhere in that area or at least somewhere that is close to sea level. No experience but from all reports here if you are at or close to sea level and plan on running stock ballast or a little more the 343 is just fine even without the plate. Get the plate and a high altitude prop if you are really concerned. Now, if you are planning on running an extra 2k then you might want the 409.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-15-2012, 8:51 PM Reply   
It's totally not needed at modest altitude. Even the trimtab is not needed but I got it as a luxury. I hope to devise a controller to automatically raise the trimtab as I get up to rider speed. The trimtab makes the process faster and saves a lot of fuel.
Old     (nitrousbird)      Join Date: Sep 2008       02-16-2012, 5:21 AM Reply   
Think about this - come resale time NO ONE will pass your boat up for having the 409, and some will be willing to pay a premium for it. But there will be those that will pass it up for not having it.
Old     (TheSqueakyWheel)      Join Date: Oct 2010       02-16-2012, 5:35 AM Reply   
My neighbor has a 2011 F21 at 5000' in CO.
He has the the 340hp motor and the cavitation plate. Last summer we had no problems getting on plane for surfing with full stock balastl, and an additional 1500lbs of bag ballast on the surfside. So I can unequivocally attest that the 340 motor is sufficient.

Having said that, I've preordered a 2013 24 tomcat and opted for the bigger engine.
Old    Troy Deschamps (TroyD)      Join Date: Jan 2012       02-16-2012, 6:58 AM Reply   
Same story, my neighbor actually sold a boat to upgrade to 409 as he needed tons of weight to get clean wake and 343 was just not cutting it. 409 all the way.
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       02-16-2012, 7:52 AM Reply   
Troy, did your neighbor own an MB? Must not be if he had to add weight to get a clean wake. In his case I dont think I would change motors, I would change boats!

The 2012 21' Tomcat I tested had the 343 with wake plate and at sea level it had more than enough power with ballast full. The wake plate is nice but wasnt absolutley necessary unless you require ZERO bow rise at takeoff. If I was buying a MB, I would get the 343. I would even get it in the 23 TWB, it only weighs 200 lbs more.
Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       02-16-2012, 8:12 AM Reply   
Unless you're at a high elevation, save your money and fine tune your pulling power with the prop.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-16-2012, 8:17 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrousbird View Post
Think about this - come resale time NO ONE will pass your boat up for having the 409, and some will be willing to pay a premium for it. But there will be those that will pass it up for not having it.
No one will pass it up for having the 409 but you will lose your arse on the upgrade charge of 4200. I would say you might get $500-$1000 more for a boat with the 409 and will only add a couple percent to the potential buyer group.
Old    falcon_v            02-16-2012, 9:26 AM Reply   
Sounds like what I will do just save my money and stay with the 343 and get a different prop. I am not a pro rider so 1800 will do for me on wakeboarding. I just load out when I surf so it sounds like I should be good. Thanks everyone
Old    Bruizza (bruizza)      Join Date: May 2009       02-16-2012, 10:12 AM Reply   
We demoed the F21 with the 343 in Denver so 5200' of elevation and it had no problems at all. It could have easily handled more than the stock 1800lbs. It had the Cav plate which seems to help with planing quickly so I would get that option.
Old    - (Txjole)      Join Date: Dec 2011       02-16-2012, 10:41 AM Reply   
If I had to choose from the 343 or 409 I would skip right pass the 409 and go to the 450.
Old    DC (durty_curt)      Join Date: Apr 2008       02-16-2012, 4:15 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Txjole View Post
If I had to choose from the 343 or 409 I would skip right pass the 409 and go to the 450.
Congrats .....now your required minimum octane went from 87 to 93. Last time I checked most gas only had as high as 91 at the pump. Have fun fueling!!!
Old    David Griffith (davidggriffith)      Join Date: Sep 2008       02-16-2012, 4:36 PM Reply   
If your spending the money for the 450hp option you might as well get the super charged 550hp option
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-16-2012, 4:48 PM Reply   
Why in the hell would you need a 450 in an MB? It might add a couple mph's to top end. Point of diminishing returns comes to mind.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-16-2012, 4:50 PM Reply   
It will be fine with the 343 hp.It's a beast!
Old    Chris Siino (chriscno)      Join Date: Sep 2011       02-16-2012, 6:17 PM Reply   
I have the 21 MB Tomcat and the 343 PCM engine is fine. Also, just remember the bigger the engine the more fuel it will take to run.
Old     (nitrousbird)      Join Date: Sep 2008       02-17-2012, 5:33 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscno View Post
I have the 21 MB Tomcat and the 343 PCM engine is fine. Also, just remember the bigger the engine the more fuel it will take to run.
That's actually not true. The antiquated GEN-I SBC will likely burn more fuel than the 409, which is either based on the GEN-III or GEN-IV 6.0L motor (which are very similar). They are very different motors and share almost no parts at all.
Old    Jeff D (Jeff)      Join Date: May 2010       02-17-2012, 5:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by durty_curt View Post
Last time I checked most gas only had as high as 91 at the pump. Have fun fueling!!!
In the Southeast I've actually never seen 91 octane at a gas station, only 93. The only time I ever see 91 octane "premium" is when I've traveled to the West/Northwest side of Texas and beyond.
Old    - (Txjole)      Join Date: Dec 2011       02-17-2012, 6:14 AM Reply   
I can get 93 allday long even in bulk (500 gallons or more) and pay less then u pay at the pump.
Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       02-17-2012, 6:22 AM Reply   
Just a side note, but I believe the 409 is closed cooling. So those that are annoyed with paying to winterize the block....

Am I correct on this?
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-17-2012, 8:22 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Txjole View Post
I can get 93 allday long even in bulk (500 gallons or more) and pay less then u pay at the pump.
Good for you. Doesn't help the average buyer and getting the 450 is still stupid in this boat. Just a waste of money that you will never get when you sell the boat. Not sure what the 450 upgrade is but seeing as how the 409 is 4200 I wouldn't be surprised if it is 6000/plus. That is $6000 that you will never get back all the while burnign more fuel, and for the average buyer a higher priced fuel. 450 in the MB=not smart.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       02-17-2012, 10:42 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuneman View Post
Just a side note, but I believe the 409 is closed cooling. So those that are annoyed with paying to winterize the block....

Am I correct on this?
The new 409's are 50/50 cooling, you will still need to winterize either by taking in antifreeze or by pulling plugs.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       02-17-2012, 10:47 AM Reply   
Not so fast Brett, I sold Rathy's boat with the 409 to a salt water rider, while anti F / coolant circulates the block, water only goes through the manifolds so the engine (409 ) is very desireable to salty's as well as super heavy ballast riders.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-17-2012, 11:03 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by surffresh View Post
Not so fast Brett, I sold Rathy's boat with the 409 to a salt water rider, while anti F / coolant circulates the block, water only goes through the manifolds so the engine (409 ) is very desireable to salty's as well as super heavy ballast riders.
That makes sense although what is a closed cooling kit(assuming you can get one) for the 343? $1500-2000? Still cheaper then a 4000 upgrade.
Old    Daniel (cowwboy)      Join Date: Jul 2008       02-17-2012, 1:12 PM Reply   
Get the xs 550 in it and stop your crying!
Old     (nitrousbird)      Join Date: Sep 2008       02-17-2012, 1:40 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
That makes sense although what is a closed cooling kit(assuming you can get one) for the 343? $1500-2000? Still cheaper then a 4000 upgrade.
Just because you THINK the motor upgrade has no value in resale doesn't make it true. Just because you THINK the 409 will burn more fuel doesn't make it true. Premium over regular is a whopping $0.20/gallon more...not going to break the bank, especially when you figure in the fuel SAVINGS over the 343.

There are many, such as myself, who are willing (and have) paid a higher price for a used boat with an upgraded motor. Not everyone want to rock a motor who's last development was in 1996 (and that was to copy the head design of the LT1).
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-17-2012, 1:55 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrousbird View Post
Just because you THINK the motor upgrade has no value in resale doesn't make it true. Just because you THINK the 409 will burn more fuel doesn't make it true. Premium over regular is a whopping $0.20/gallon more...not going to break the bank, especially when you figure in the fuel SAVINGS over the 343.

There are many, such as myself, who are willing (and have) paid a higher price for a used boat with an upgraded motor. Not everyone want to rock a motor who's last development was in 1996 (and that was to copy the head design of the LT1).
Resale will be very little. I don't really care if you think it should be more. People like you that jsut want the biggest and best engine just because make up very little of the potential buying pool. These aren't speed boats. They aren't meant to pull a wakeboarder or surfer out of hte water and drive at 18-25 mph. By going to the bigger engine you basically gain nothing that is going ot make 99% of the buyers have a better boating experience. All I am saying is that if the extra HP isn't needed and doesn't really do anything why spend the money. Flat out you wont get it back when selling the boat. It is just like any other option you add on the boat. You will get 10 cents on the dollar on those upgrades.

Also, what is wrong with very little change in the 343? If it aint broke don't fix it. Especially if it still performs great and meets the needs of 99% of the people out there. I garuntee less then 1% of people care that the motor's last development was in 96 and was a copy of something else. At least in a wakeboard boat application.

Sounds like you are a motor head type guy which is fine but the added up front cost isn't going to come back to you in resale. If you like it and really want it fine. It sure doesn't sound like OP cares at all as long as the 343 is more then capable of running a stock ballast 21 MB. Which it is.

Last edited by polarbill; 02-17-2012 at 2:00 PM.
Old    Troy Deschamps (TroyD)      Join Date: Jan 2012       02-17-2012, 3:27 PM Reply   
Order it without an engine then put in a 4.3 Mercruiser, or maybe even a 3.0. Then just prop up.
Old    B Beasley (ProvoMB52)      Join Date: Nov 2011       02-17-2012, 7:26 PM Reply   
Yates you need to be really careful when you start spouting things around like you're the only one with "factual" information. It may be true where you live, that buyers may not want, or need, an upgraded engine. That however, is not true where I live.

My experience is that there is definitely a market for upgraded engines, and the marketplace would be well in excess of your claimed 1%. Now I'm not interested in getting is a leapfrog contest with you, but I will say this. You have no knowledge as to why I put a 409 in my 23' WB. I have experience, and multiple reasons which guided my decision. Were you to live where I live, and boat where I boat, in the conditions I boat in, and were you to think a 343 would be sufficient, you would quickly be looking for an opportunity to upgrade to a new boat.

A little more from experience, and a whole lot more consideration for the fact that there will be many reasons why people do what they do, and decide what they decide, and let's all come to the realization that in the end, it's their choice.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       02-18-2012, 6:20 AM Reply   
Well said Beasley, 3 out of my last 6 orders were 409's, 2 salty, one wanted to be sure the boat (23) performed with 10 people on board, I also have a new order being put together and the buyer wants a 409 in his 23 mainly for resale, his thinking is that his 23 will be put up against 230's and it's hard to find a 230 with a 343. We gambled on a stunt at the Charlotte NC show and had a new Harley Davidson in our booth, buy our boats for their price with the same engines and get the bike for free, we were right, they had a 409 in their 230, just like our 23. Our F21 and their 210 had 343s. The 230 upgrade was 6800 for the 409, ours was 4200.....same engine.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-18-2012, 8:29 AM Reply   
Beasley, it looks like you live in Utah and probably boat at high altitudes. You and most in that area may need the 409 in an MB so that it actually performs. I am not arguing that there are certain places like Colorado(elevation), Utah(elevation) or Florida where the boat may be used in salt(409 has partial closed cooling). The OP is however looking at a boat in Texas which unless I am wrong is completely near sea Level. My point is in most of the country the 409 won't help your resale enough to warrant the original upgrade cost or the added performance. For someone to say to a guy that he should get the upgraded engine when he says he isn't going to add a bunch of extra ballast and lives in an area near sea level is just bad advice in my opinion. I think one thing that people on this site fail to realize is that 95% of the potential buying pool are families that are going to use the boat to cruise, tube and hang out. They aren't worried about it having the perfect wake with extra ballast, the perfect surf wave with an extra 1500 pounds, etc....

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