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Old    SamIngram            01-25-2012, 3:21 PM Reply   
Where will Obama side on mud puddles?

This probably doesn't interest anyone but me, but I suspect it will shut down my logging business. I currently have logging operations in 14 states. I am a very small operator in comparison to the big guys, but I currently employ 33 people, 12 full time and the rest part time or on a contract basis. I can't imagine how many people are employed in the entire logging industry.

I only cut hardwood and typically plant at least five trees for every tree that I harvest. Last year I preserved over 285 acres of naturally forested lands (legally in a preserve) and maintained over 600 acres of natural forest, removing undergrowth and dead trees. I did develop 22 acres into commercial real estate, but I have easily planted enough trees to cover that area five to six times. Without people like me, and other people in the logging industry, our privately owned natural forests would be in pretty bad shape.

I think this is a perfect example of how the Obama administration is over regulating everything.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-25-2012, 4:07 PM Reply   
Sam I agree with you 100% Over regulation and growing government is the Death of this country. Im sure Obama will beat his chest that he added new Jobís ya know the job's to regulate you and the loggers!!! Iím sure this story will get NO traction and all people will want to talk about is how Newt's ex wife said this or How Mit's Dog trainer said that! Or the speaker of the house has got a fake Tan. How many Job's Did NoBamma's Pipe line veto cost us? How come this is not a story when lack or loss of job's are on everyone's mind. Obama is to busy flying around the country in our $187 thousand dollar per hr campaign office called (Air Force One) thank you tax payers we are funding his overpriced flying Limo so he can charge $3,000 a plate speaking engagements that all go to his war chest called his RE-Election campaign.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-25-2012, 4:59 PM Reply   
Quote:
I think this is a perfect example of how the Obama administration is over regulating everything.
This statement is a perfect example of a lack of understanding about govt.

How is 35 years of EPA interpretation Obama's fault? OK, I can see that you are looking for a President to change that but you are fooling yourself if you think the GOP will do anything. Ron Paul would certainly give it a go, but the rest of the bunch is too busy doing deals behind your back. Their public face is as phony as a wooden nickle. It's incredibly naive to blame Obama for the same thing anyone in DC would do. The GOP ain't going to do jack for any industry that isn't lining their pockets. Better open your pockets deep Sam, because your industry is outgunned by the big boys.

WRT the pipeline... cracking that shale oil is an environmental nightmare. I think the American people should make serious efforts to reduce consumption before heading in that direction. if you want to destroy the environment, at least demonstrate a serious effort to change our gluttonous consumption of oil.
Old    SamIngram            01-25-2012, 7:21 PM Reply   
Well, didn't Obama appoint anyone in the EPA?
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       01-25-2012, 11:43 PM Reply   
This is exactly in my wheelhouse. If his EPA region 9 is an example we're F'd in no uncertain terms. EPA has provided support to Cal/EPA specifically the State Water Board to really restrict storm water runoff. We're in a very heated battle right now where labor and business are together fighting the promulgation of these permits and regulations that have standards far stricter than background and if looked at as a whole are leading to no-discharge where all water, including storm runoff must be treated. Washington state adopted similar standards and almost every permit is in dispute as there is no way to comply.
Old    Terry Redfearn (TerryR)      Join Date: Aug 2010       01-25-2012, 11:59 PM Reply   
"WRT the pipeline"

The shale oil will be exploited by the Chinese instead. The policy of hoping to reduce our level of consumption by limiting our production of oil, is not working. The result is the continued dependance on Middle East oil. The longterm result is a cost in young American lives.

This is a ridiculus decision by Obama.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-26-2012, 7:28 AM Reply   
Only after the last tree has been cut down
Only after the last river has been poisoned
Only after the last fish has been caught
Only then will you find you cannot eat money
-- Cree prophecy
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-26-2012, 8:41 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
Well, didn't Obama appoint anyone in the EPA?
Again how is 35 years of consistant policy among both democrats and republicans a perfect example of anything to do with the Obama administration?
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       01-26-2012, 9:04 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Again how is 35 years of consistant policy among both democrats and republicans a perfect example of anything to do with the Obama administration?
The new permit conditions are not consistent with these policies and so stringent that compliance is impossible. The NEL/NALs that EPA has supported take a one size fits all approach not accounting for natural deposition or atmospheric deposition. As such this move goes far beyond previous permit conditions and would substantially increase compliance costs to the point that facilities would have to berm their property to catch all run off for treatment prior to it leaving their facility.

And while you may associate these forestry conditions with only logging one must remember all the utility rights-of-way on forest lands and the conditions of these permits as proposed would have a noticeable impact on you utility bill.

Other things impacted, public road construction would get less for more as the treatment systems required for these permits would blow out the costs.

Not to mention there's no scientific evidence to support the need to move to permits as stringent.
Old    SamIngram            01-26-2012, 9:36 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Again how is 35 years of consistant policy among both democrats and republicans a perfect example of anything to do with the Obama administration?
John,
I have already answered this, but let me explain it further. Obama, through his nomination to head the EPA and input, is driving these regulations. Obama placed Lisa Jackson as the head of the EPA, effectively controlling the direction the EPA would take. The Obama administration, including Lisa Jackson, has used the many government bureaucracies to effectively take control of huge sectors of the economy, including auto and oil businesses. If you don't believe this, I would call you naive. If you don't understand it, I will try to help you.

Futhermore, I'm not sure if the following statement that you posted is meant to be a low blow to me or what;

Quote:
Only after the last tree has been cut down
Only after the last river has been poisoned
Only after the last fish has been caught
Only then will you find you cannot eat money
-- Cree prophecy
but, I work my butt off to be the best steward of the land that I can. I am one of only three non-indian contractors to work with both the Lakota and the Blackfeet to help manage their forest. I go every year and clean out the trees that they don't have the equipment for. I am also a LEED AP (Accredited Professional) and haven't built a building with less than a LEED Silver rating. Last September my company was one of the sponsors for the Tree Party Rebellion in New Mexico. We provided food and emergency medical care for anyone that needed it. We also have planted almost 5 trees for every tree that we have cut down and I personally set aside 285 acres of timber in the midwest in a conservation preserve that will never be cleared or farmed.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-26-2012, 9:43 AM Reply   
^I didn't post that. But the point of my post is that Obama is status quo.
Old    SamIngram            01-26-2012, 9:46 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
^I didn't post that. But the point of my post is that Obama is status quo.
Sorry, I always confuse your posts with Jeremy. My apologies!
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       01-26-2012, 9:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
^I didn't post that. But the point of my post is that Obama is status quo.
If region 9 is an example then he is not status quo.
Old    SamIngram            01-26-2012, 1:19 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
^I didn't post that. But the point of my post is that Obama is status quo.
Well John, do you still think it is status quo?
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-26-2012, 4:14 PM Reply   
Sam, it isn't guys like you, it's the big dogs in the game that screw it up for everyone. I appreciate you replacing the trees you cut down and don't have a problem with the way you run your business. But I do have a problem that you root for the big dogs that are the ones screwing you in your business.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       01-26-2012, 4:25 PM Reply   
It's not just the big dogs. Here's the Economic Impact Analysis for Boatyards in Washington State, who was the first to employ the new NPDES permits. Not on page 11-12 the compliance costs both annual and one time capital expense, annualized at $19,400 to $52,000 for small boatyards. This is not cheap nor is compliance feasible at this time regardless of the imposed permit requirements.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-26-2012, 5:40 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
Well John, do you still think it is status quo?
Give me a complete history of the EPA under each administration listing the pros and cons. I'll review it and tell you what I think. AFAIK, Obama is as middle of the road as you can get. And that's what the public will show come election day.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       01-26-2012, 5:46 PM Reply   
Nice strawman...
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       01-26-2012, 8:46 PM Reply   
Sam, why does Obama have to make a stand? can't the courts just throw it out? and Obama say nothing.
John, just saw gasland, and fracking is FRACKED UP! and then all the companies deny its destroying the environment, this is much more important than mud puddles. The epa should not let any company destroy any river in the U.S.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       01-27-2012, 9:19 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshmoe View Post
...this is much more important than mud puddles. The epa should not let any company destroy any river in the U.S.
Fracking is a totally different situation. When EPA is treating man made drainage ditches as wetlands things are a bit out of control. And defining the LA river as navigable so that you can develop biological objectives is a bit absurd.

Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       01-27-2012, 9:33 AM Reply   
A friend of mine owns a logging company and has been researching the possibility of relocating to Brazil because of costs. Anyway, his argument is at least the logging companies replant. The construction of things like shopping malls have just as much negative environmental impact as logging, but the media or EPA doesn't say anything about them. It' similar to the left attacking the oil companies for oil spills, but what the media doesn't tell is that more oil and fluids are leaked out of our cars every year than what was spilled by the EXXON Valdez. Rant over.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-27-2012, 9:35 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by norcalrider View Post
Nice strawman...
That's a new one... asking for the facts is now a strawman argument. I can't wait to hear that excuse when someone criticizes a congessman on why he voted on a bill without reading it.
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       01-27-2012, 9:42 AM Reply   
I disagree that Obama is midlle of the road. He may appear that way now because we have a conservative majority in Congress and about to have another election, but if he were middle of road, we would not have the Health Care law going to the Supreme Court.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-27-2012, 9:49 AM Reply   
"It' similar to the left attacking the oil companies for oil spills, but what the media doesn't tell is that more oil and fluids are leaked out of our cars every year than what was spilled by the EXXON Valdez. Rant over."

You do realize that the amout of oil spilled by the Valdez was concentrated to an area of about 11,000 square miles while the amount of "oils and fluids leaked out of our cars every year" is distributed through an area of about 3,794,101 square miles? I would say the reason the media doesn't tell us that is because most of the people, with even a third-grade level of mental capacity, could tell that this argument is probably one of the dumbest you could pose.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-27-2012, 9:51 AM Reply   
It's a great argument... the sum of a couple million people polluting is more than one corp, so what worry about one corp? Or 2 or 3.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-27-2012, 9:52 AM Reply   
The people who are sending the hc bill to the SC aren't middle of the road.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       01-27-2012, 10:21 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
That's a new one... asking for the facts is now a strawman argument. I can't wait to hear that excuse when someone criticizes a congessman on why he voted on a bill without reading it.
I provided relevant documents to new permits demonstrating a drastic change in policy at EPA and you say things are status quo. You continue to place the burden of proof on those who have made a statement, supported it with facts and developed a position while you have not supported your argument. Your argument is to assign a research project? That's a strawman, you have no facts or data or even knowledge of the subject to defend your status quo position. Just flawed rhetoric.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-27-2012, 10:26 AM Reply   
So you are saying that if I read the one document you linked to I will get a comprehensive overview of all the EPA policies for the last 35 years? I'm thinking not.

If you are trying to convince me that Obama is worse than everyone else over one issue, that isn't going to happen. Everyone has their bitch.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       01-27-2012, 10:31 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
It's a great argument... the sum of a couple million people polluting is more than one corp, so what worry about one corp? Or 2 or 3.
Emissions inventories demonstrate, even in the non-attainment regions that personal cars and goods movement make up over 85% of all air emissions. In most cases stationary source (corporations being all corporationy) make up 5% or less of a regions air emissions. Not to mention in these non-attainment regions those stationary sources are almost all at BACT (best available control technology). So in many ways it is individuals or the sum of the populace that far exceeds the pollutants emitted or released by businesses. In no way am I saying pollution shouldn't be regulated, but there needs to be an understanding that there is a cost to society. There also needs to be an understanding of what the actual problems are and not regulate for the sake of regulation as we are seeing now.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       01-27-2012, 10:32 AM Reply   
And that's a strawman, welcome to logic. Last year with the backing of US/EPA 11 rulemakings and permits were opened for revision in California, this has NEVER happened in my bosses 35 years of environmental compliance work.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-27-2012, 10:49 AM Reply   
I sympathize with you being concerned with something that impacts you directly. I can even agree that the govt is being abusive. OTOH, there are many things that I think the govt is abusing and it didn't start with Obama. It simply isn't possible for me with the information I have to take your issue and put it into perspective with all of the other govt abuses and come to a conclusion that Obama should be singled out as distinctly worse than those before.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       01-27-2012, 11:12 AM Reply   
I negotiate on behalf of over 30 companies environmental compliance and these policies. Your apathy for what's happening or blind defense of a President that you may feel in unduly under attack is why these abuses are allowed to continue. And maybe I'm more sensitive to it as this is what I do but as a citizen I've seen my utility rates go up without cause or increased usage due to these mandates that happen at all levels of government, most of which are not improving environmental quality or they do it in the most expensive manner. I do not feel as though this administration or the previous one have been good stewards of the public trust or monies. I do feel that the SOTU was dishonest in regards to regulatory reform just as my Governor and State Legislators have been.
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       01-27-2012, 12:23 PM Reply   
"could tell that this argument is probably one of the dumbest you could pose." Pollution is pollution and everyone who drives contributes to that problem, and once again, relocating jobs overseas raises its ugly head.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       01-27-2012, 12:49 PM Reply   
I hate politicians
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       01-27-2012, 9:51 PM Reply   
This whole birther b.s. is a ridiculous waste of time.

On another note, though, I just came across this picture about a presidential makeover and had to post it. Whadya think????
Attached Images
 
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       01-28-2012, 11:38 AM Reply   
Oh, and wrong thread for the birther b.s., I know - was wasting time reading some of that crap and mean to post there.

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