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Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       12-14-2011, 10:29 AM Reply   
Old    Scott R (ScottR)      Join Date: Aug 2011       12-14-2011, 11:29 AM Reply   
Amazingly put!
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-14-2011, 6:37 PM Reply   
Ok, but with the "Family Budget" you need to include you have 1000 kids to feed. So which ones do you let starve?
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-14-2011, 6:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
Ok, but with the "Family Budget" you need to include you have 1000 kids to feed. So which ones do you let starve?
Parent-Child is NOT the relationship citizens have with their government and to look at it as such is so against the principles of liberty and freedom, ugh, that statement floors me.
Old    Jon Hunter (hunter660)      Join Date: Aug 2007       12-14-2011, 7:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
Ok, but with the "Family Budget" you need to include you have 1000 kids to feed. So which ones do you let starve?
Where in the constitution does is say it is the government's job to provide food?
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       12-14-2011, 7:27 PM Reply   
Quote:
Parent-Child is NOT the relationship citizens have with their government and to look at it as such is so against the principles of liberty and freedom, ugh, that statement floors me.
WOW, I couldn't agree more. It's absolutely unbelievable that a statement like that can be thrown down as an actual serious argument. Actually, it really makes the point and illustrates what's wrong with this country. I have to throw out another WOW!
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-15-2011, 4:20 AM Reply   
Jon, my statement has nothing to do with food or the government's responsibility to provide food.

"Parent-Child is NOT the relationship citizens have with their government and to look at it as such is so against the principles of liberty and freedom, ugh, that statement floors me."

Never said it was. Get off your "liberty" soap box for a second and quit trying to put words or thoughts into someone's mouth. If someone wants to compare the US budget to a "family" budget, which is asinine in itself, then what comparisons would you use?
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       12-15-2011, 5:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Ok, but with the "Family Budget" you need to include you have 1000 kids to feed. So which ones do you let starve?
I dont think in his example that "kids" are citizens. The kids in this example are the programs the government feeds cash it doesnt have. I would say stop feeding the kids that arent the government's responsibility:

Welfare - as mentioned above, it isnt the governments job to feed citizens, its only job is to protect the freedom that allows citizens to feed themselves.
SS - It isnt the governments job to save for citizens retirement. It is their job to protect the opportunity to earn and save (and I dont even mind having our savings insured)
Foreign aid - if we are spending more than we make, we arent in a position to be charitable.
..to name a few

The governments only job is to create the laws in the best interest of the people, enforce those laws, protect the shores, maintain the infrastructure, and protect our interests globally. Anything outside of that is a luxury and should be eliminated until a reasonable budget is created.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-15-2011, 6:18 AM Reply   
"I dont think in his example that "kids" are citizens. The kids in this example are the programs the government feeds cash it doesnt have."

Thank you Jason for displaying some common sense.
Old    SamIngram            12-15-2011, 6:46 AM Reply   
Try stop having the kids.
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-15-2011, 7:21 AM Reply   
Give tax deductions to charitable organizations, and donate to the chuch would be a good start, To me private organization, even though they are not perfect, do a better job of distribution to the needy as opposed to the Federal Gov. I've never known of anyone starving to death in the US. I got this via email the other day. "REPORT: My Time at Walmart: Why We Need Serious Welfare Reform.“During the 2010 and 2011 summers, I was a cashier at Wal-Mart #1788 in Scarborough, Maine. I spent hours upon hours toiling away at a register, scanning, bagging, and dealing with questionable clientele. These were all expected parts of the job, and I was okay with it. What I didn’t expect to be part of my job at Wal-Mart was to witness massive amounts of welfare fraud and abuse. . . . The thing that disturbed me more than simple cases of fraud/abuse was the entitled nature of many of my customers.”
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-15-2011, 7:49 AM Reply   
It's not the govt's job to give you a tax cut for pensions or health care either. It's not the govt's job to rebuild other nations or bribe foreign dictators to steal oil from it's citizens. It's not the govt's job to give subsidies to corps. It is the govt's job to protect the domestic economy and not allow over a 1//2 trillion of it to be exported every year.

There are a lot of the things that the govt does that people want it to do, but it shouldn't be. Instead of complaining about the overall numbers we should be eliminating the govt from doing what it shouldn't be and making sure it does what it should be. Unfortunately we all have different ideas of that based on our perceived notions of what benefits us personally. And since we all benefit differently we don't agree. So in essence "we" aren't doing our job either. That being finding common ground instead of propping up and promoting politicians that have no intention of changing anything.
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       12-15-2011, 8:38 AM Reply   
I think we all know right and wrong, we are just more accepting of "wrong" when it benefits us, and less accepting of "right" when is affects us negatively. Nobody wants to be the victim of correcting the wrongs. Undoing all the wrong is going to negatively affect alot of people, but ultimately be better for the nation. The question is, which generation is going to fix it?
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       12-15-2011, 8:56 AM Reply   
^^^^ Well said. It's not going to be "fixed" in one generation, but it would be great if we could be the generation that got the ball rolling in the right direction in a MEANINGFUL way...none of these half-assed "Hey, we just reduced the rate at which we're overspending" B.S. attempts!
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-15-2011, 8:58 AM Reply   
I don't believe for an instant that we all know right and wrong when it comes to what the govt does. The division over right and wrong is so large that I don't see how anyone can make that statement.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-15-2011, 9:39 AM Reply   
It will take a generation to make the collective decision to stop perpetuating the failed economic and entitlement programs that will fail our future generations. And as I've stated before let it be mine.

Jeremy, sorry your analogy was bad and any parent-child analogy will offend. Perhaps not your intent but that is what was written. And no, I won't get off the liberty issue, I cannot because those who do have allowed us to get to this point in history where government is out of control. Disagree all you want, I love the debate but never assume that you are solely responsible for common sense. Your analogy was bad, perhaps the initial premise was bad, but that's not what you wrote. The initial post though breaks the numbers into scale that are more readily understood. You chose to claim the need to feed 1000 children whereas the initial post has those dollars as just expenditures(family money spent). You defined the relationship and dare to be offended when people respond to your asinine presumption. Sorry I'm not sorry. There is no analogy for citizen-government but that wasn't the purpose of scaling the numbers.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-15-2011, 10:52 AM Reply   
LOL @ the butthurt over Jeremy's post. I see the analogy as much larger than welfare to the impoverished. It's welfare to corps, govt workers, special interests, foreign countries, the military industrial complex, professional occupations, wall street, etc... the list is endless. Everyone who fills up their gas tank, shops for cheap imports, gets defined benefit pensions, tax deductions for health insurance and pensions, or even gets untaxed benefits of any kind from their employer is getting a form of govt welfare. The boom of low cost consumer goods and excessive resource consumption is a form of welfare for the masses. Thank you monetary expansion and perpetual govt debt for our phoney wall street wealth. We all secretly love welfare and govt spending when it enriches our lives, even if we don't know it.
Old    Scott (crypted1)      Join Date: Jun 2009       12-15-2011, 11:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
The thing that disturbed me more than simple cases of fraud/abuse was the entitled nature of many of my customers.”
The people this statement is about is what is fundamentally wrong with this country. No one in this country is ENTITLED to anythng. It's thinking like this that got us trouble in the first place. Just because your born doen't mean your entitled to food, a job, a house, or in most of our cases a boat!

Everything I have in my life I worked for. I didn't sit and wait for the government to help me because I'm entitled to it.

Sorry for the rant, but all I'm trying to say is: If you want a house, earn it.

I don't believe that the government should take care of me when I retire and they won't. I don't need Social Security. It burns me up that I have to pay for it, but probally will never use it.

Life is full fo choices. It all about the choices you make to set you up later in life.
Old    SamIngram            12-15-2011, 11:29 AM Reply   
I think the analogy is poor...

My first thought after looking at the family budget was they are idiots. My second thought was that they needed more income. I do not feel this way about the Federal Government.
Old    Cliff Griffin (seattle)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-15-2011, 11:37 AM Reply   
Three years into this recession and most of America is polarized and accepting of our governments lack of willingness to go against the special interest groups that got us here. I have llittle faith that any group or movement will intercede and affect change until our country is at the brink of total collapse.
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       12-15-2011, 12:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
I think the analogy is poor...

My first thought after looking at the family budget was they are idiots. My second thought was that they needed more income. I do not feel this way about the Federal Government.
Wow…Did Sam just say that? This is what I have been getting bashed for even bring up. I don't see any difference in the family or federal budget. You have a yearly income of X….That means you can spend X or less a year. If you spend more than X, your family will need to spend less in the future to repay debit. Do you think government is above these basic economic rules?

Politician spending has been so out of control, we can't even balance a budget! We are not even speaking about cutting into our 15,000,000,000,000 debit. The interest alone cost the US $3,000,000,000,000!

Our debit is beyond cutting. You need to cut from both ends to even make a small dent. In family budget terms, the US has purchased a upscale home, new truck and a X-Star with a janitors salary! That janitor will need a raise and dump all the things he can't afford to make up for his poor financial decisions.

The politicians continue to do nothing while the corporations, rich, middle-class and poor yell "your not taking from me!". It is only a matter of time until we all pay.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-15-2011, 12:50 PM Reply   
Mik, I don't really need to clarify any further. I think Jason and John have clarified plenty. Let's say that you are a defense contractor or even let's say you own a store in a small town and your clientele is 95% servicemen. This makes you one of the 1000 kids from my analogy, whether it was good or bad. Now let's slash the budget and make a huge cut in military spending. Say you face the prospect of losing your contract or the base in the town where your store is located is closed by the government. You face the prospect of losing everything for which you have worked your ass off. Are you going to be so open to supporting military cuts or are you going to want to shift the cuts to one of your "siblings"? Don't bother answering because everyone knows the answer.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       12-15-2011, 1:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Let's say that you are a defense contractor or even let's say you own a store in a small town and your clientele is 95% servicemen. This makes you one of the 1000 kids from my analogy, whether it was good or bad. Now let's slash the budget and make a huge cut in military spending. Say you face the prospect of losing your contract or the base in the town where your store is located is closed by the government. You face the prospect of losing everything for which you have worked your ass off.
If you make your living off a bloated government that cannot sustain itself indefinitely, then you'd better be saving your pennies and preparing for the day when the people finally get the government back in line fiscally. You don't have a right to the income stream for life and I don't feel sorry for you if cuts in a portion of government put you out of business. Preparing for the future and maintaining your relevance is part of running a business.

Put another way, if I have a company that makes cassette players, I need to move my business into CD players, mp3 players and whatever the future holds. I have no God-given (government-given?) right to continue selling cassette players even if the market isn't there.

This kind of thinking is why we have a bloated government in the first place!
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       12-15-2011, 1:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakeworld View Post
Put another way, if I have a company that makes cassette players, I need to move my business into CD players, mp3 players and whatever the future holds. I have no God-given (government-given?) right to continue selling cassette players even if the market isn't there.
No, but if you're big enough you can tell everyone how many people you employ and you should be entitled to a government bailout or tax loop hole.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       12-15-2011, 1:34 PM Reply   
^^^Exactly. Too many people want to sit on their ass and not have to worry about things like innovation and progression. Just get my government contract and milk it until I get my next one (which, of course, I'm entitled to). Just pile up the inefficiencies one on top of the other and you get...what we have now!
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       12-15-2011, 1:34 PM Reply   
Kinda goes back to putting all your eggs in one basket, doesn't it.
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       12-15-2011, 1:50 PM Reply   
Quote:
I don't believe for an instant that we all know right and wrong when it comes to what the govt does.
I think we "know" more than you think but have different views on it depending on how changing it will affect us. For example, you "know" social security is a bad policy for the government to have. I know this as well, however, you would not be for terminating it because of what you have already put into it (nor could anyone blame you).

My point is knowing the difference between good government programs and bad is pretty universal I would think, though there are VERY valid reasons for one to be against rectifying it.

We need to get to the point where the attitude among the masses is to rectify the bad policies as a matter of principle regardless of the impact to individuals.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-15-2011, 2:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
Mik, I don't really need to clarify any further. I think Jason and John have clarified plenty. Let's say that you are a defense contractor or even let's say you own a store in a small town and your clientele is 95% servicemen. This makes you one of the 1000 kids from my analogy, whether it was good or bad. Now let's slash the budget and make a huge cut in military spending. Say you face the prospect of losing your contract or the base in the town where your store is located is closed by the government. You face the prospect of losing everything for which you have worked your ass off. Are you going to be so open to supporting military cuts or are you going to want to shift the cuts to one of your "siblings"? Don't bother answering because everyone knows the answer.
As a kid I watched Bill Clinton and Diane Feinstein come to my hometown and speak at an AFB where my Grandfather had a street and building named after him. They both promised not to shut the base down and shortly thereafter did. Sure as a child I was offended but the community surrounding the base came up with a plan and less than a few years after the loss, the base was converted to private usage and produces more jobs and revenues than the base ever did. The city did not collapse, it adapted. It's a shared sacrifice and while YOU may not be benevolent I certainly am. I am fully prepared to pay for SSI and never recieve it. I'm willing to support my grandparents and parents so that my children will not be saddled with national deficit.

Government spending is not the engine of our economy, it CANNOT be the engine.
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       12-15-2011, 2:53 PM Reply   
"Just pile up the inefficiencies one on top of the other and you get...what we have now! "
What? The greatest country in the world! We just survived the greatest recession since the great depression and still have the largest economy in the world.
We will always owe money, the answer is not to cut programs and jobs, but to become more productive and get the economy rolling(yes John, this includes making better products more efficiently than anyone else in the world) making what we owe a smaller percentage of the total economy.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-15-2011, 3:12 PM Reply   
"If you make your living off a bloated government that cannot sustain itself indefinitely"

Just to be clear; owning a store in a military town is "living off a bloated government"? What about owning a store in a small state college town? Is that also "living off a bloated government"? Where do you draw the line, because I can keep going and going?
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       12-15-2011, 3:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Just to be clear; owning a store in a military town is "living off a bloated government"?
Maybe. Just because a government is bloated does not mean that every piece of the government is unnecessary, so that military town or state college may or may not be a part of government that would survive if fiscal responsibility is restored. If either of those stores are supported by a piece of government that is "bloated" then, yes, they should be put out of business. You can post up sob stories all day, but that's the way the free market works and everybody has to adapt to a constantly changing market, be it public sector or private sector.

Unfortunately, many libs think that once you get up and running and comfortable with a certain job, business, etc., you are entitled to that for life. Not true in this country. If they outlaw wakeboarding tomorrow, I realize that I will have to find something else to do. I factored that risk in when I decided to start a small business. See socialism and communism for a list of countries you might want to move to for a guaranteed job for life.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-15-2011, 4:33 PM Reply   
It has nothing to do with having a "guaranteed job for life". It has to do with the unintended consequences that come with people chest-thumping and proclaiming that we need to do whatever is necessary to get our fiscal house in order.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       12-15-2011, 4:49 PM Reply   
If the elimination of waste is "chest thumping" then call me a Silverback!
Old    D. Cooper (dcooper)      Join Date: Mar 2005       12-16-2011, 12:24 PM Reply   
I'm entitled to the same protections under the constitution as anyone else and that entitles me the same opportunities in life that anyone here has.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-16-2011, 1:47 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcooper View Post
I'm entitled to the same protections under the constitution as anyone else and that entitles me the same opportunities in life that anyone here has.
Equality of opportunity is not equality of results.
Old    Nickbot (nickbot)      Join Date: Feb 2007       12-17-2011, 9:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
It's not the govt's job to give you a tax cut for pensions or health care either.
THEY SHOULDN'T BE TAKING THAT TAX MONEY IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!
you CAN NOT call it a hand out when the government simply steals less of your money...WOW!!

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