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Old    SamIngram            12-05-2011, 3:52 PM Reply   
I'm surprised we don't have a discussion/fight regarding Senate Bill 1867 on this forum.

Has anyone read it? Is anyone outraged? Any comments whatsoever?

In some of the other forums that I read people are talking pretty serious talk...
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-05-2011, 3:55 PM Reply   
Well Sam, what part of the bill has you in an uproar?
Old    SamIngram            12-05-2011, 4:11 PM Reply   
I'm not really in an uproar...yet.

I'm still reading it, trying to understand it, and will actually attend a "class" on it here in Idaho tonight.

I find it interesting that they legalized both Sodomy and Bestiality in U.S. Military!!!



Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       12-05-2011, 6:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
Well Sam, what part of the bill has you in an uproar?
LoL...is this the bill that allows the military to arrest me with no probable cause while sodomizing a goat?
Old    Rich (digg311)      Join Date: Sep 2007       12-05-2011, 8:52 PM Reply   
Everybody should be in an uproar about this!! Unless you're excited by the possibility of being detained and held indefinitely without a trial or any other due process. Ridiculous.
Old    Makaveli (no_tools)      Join Date: Apr 2007       12-05-2011, 9:57 PM Reply   
who cares? i just wanna see who wins the next top model and wait for my 150 inch 3 d tv i got for 75 cents on cyber monday to get here. you guys are too serious. lighten up. lol. in a seriousness. nothing our gov does surprises me. NOTHING.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-06-2011, 5:18 AM Reply   
You guys crack me up. I haven't had the time to fully read the bill, I have just skimmed it, but let's address one thing real quick. I was in the military and I guarantee 99.9999999999999999999999999998% of the other servicemen will agree with me, legal or not, there is not going to be an issue with bestiality. Besides, servicemen are required to follow the laws in the state were they are stationed, and I don't think bestiality is legal in any state. Give the men and women protecting your freedoms a little bit of credit.

Next onto sodomy, and Sam you should know this since you were in the military, is described as any sexual act that is not the missionary position. So if you and you wife (and I hate to be so vile, but I can't think of another way to say this) were doing it "doggy-style", you could be charged under the UCMJ for committing sodomy. This also includes oral sex.
Old    SamIngram            12-06-2011, 11:37 AM Reply   
First the bill would repeal Article 125 of the UCMJ

"(a) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete the offense. (b) Any person found guilty of sodomy shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

This article wasn't repealed to allow any kind of straight sex, it was repealed to specifically allow gay sex. It wasn't rewritten as several other articles of the UCMJ were, it was totally repealed. If they had rewritten it then the actual goal would have been defined and made very clear. With the repeal, people like you, can make your very argument. This was a thought-out strategy and a way to hide what the actual purpose of this part of the bill is for, to allow gay sex in the military.

Furthermore, UCMJ also disallows sex with kids, Article 120, and I guarantee 99.9999999999999999999999999998% of the other servicemen will agree with me, legal or not, there is not going to be an issue with sex with kids...

BUT ALL THIS IS NONSENSE!

The real issue is that he bill effectively repeals parts of the Bill of Rights, namely the 5th Amendment, the Posse Comitatus Act, and the Writ of Habeas Corpus. It also goes against several court rulings including the Milligan Court (Ex Parte Milligan 1866).

This bill is bad as it gets.
Old    Rich (digg311)      Join Date: Sep 2007       12-06-2011, 1:34 PM Reply   
^^^ What he said.^^^ Sam and I rarely see eye to eye... but we're on the same page on this one!
Old    SamIngram            12-07-2011, 7:53 AM Reply   
What the heck is going on? One person agrees with me and no naysayers???
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-07-2011, 8:01 AM Reply   
Hi guys... Is this where I sign up to protest where soldiers can put their weiners?
Old    SamIngram            12-07-2011, 8:25 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Hi guys... Is this where I sign up to protest where soldiers can put their weiners?
So you are more concerned about sSodomy and Bestiality than the more important issues... or do you think they don't apply to you? Or are you for the repeals parts of the Bill of Rights, namely the 5th Amendment, the Posse Comitatus Act, and the Writ of Habeas Corpus?
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-07-2011, 8:34 AM Reply   
The gist of my post should indicate I'm not concerned at all about bestiality or sodomy. I'm mocking you guys for making a big deal about it.
Old    Rich (digg311)      Join Date: Sep 2007       12-07-2011, 10:16 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
The gist of my post should indicate I'm not concerned at all about bestiality or sodomy. I'm mocking you guys for making a big deal about it.
The gist of your post only indicates that you're more concerned with being a smarta$$ than reading what people are thinking and responding intelligently.
I've actually read all the posts above. And as far as I can tell only one person even sorta seems to be worried about the bestiality or sodomy part of this. And even they are making a joke, so probably don't really care at all.
There are some MONUMENTALLY scary parts of this bill though, which you appear to be glossing over to get to your punchlines.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-07-2011, 11:02 AM Reply   
LOL @ Rich. No one has posted anything about the bill except the part I'm mocking. If you have some concerns why not be specific instead of making this a guessing game?
Old    SamIngram            12-07-2011, 11:47 AM Reply   
How about the parts that Rand Paul talks about?

How about Section 1031?
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-07-2011, 12:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
How about the parts that Rand Paul talks about?

How about Section 1031?
Seems pretty limited in scope to aiding someone in 9/11 or participating in activities related to aiding al qaeda or the taliban. Is this the biggest problem in the bill?

Seems as though sec 1032 part b.1 says this isn't applicable to US citizens.

Last edited by fly135; 12-07-2011 at 12:06 PM.
Old    SamIngram            12-07-2011, 12:32 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Seems pretty limited in scope to aiding someone in 9/11 or participating in activities related to aiding al qaeda or the taliban. Is this the biggest problem in the bill?

Seems as though sec 1032 part b.1 says this isn't applicable to US citizens.
The ACLU, The Heritage Foundation, Harvard Law Review, etc... have all touched on this very fact...

http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-se...y-define-being

All have came to the same conclusion that based on the language of the bill the previous section still applies, otherwise a carve-out would not be needed in the next section...



This section the “mandatory” military detention provision—i.e., the idea that a subset of detainable persons (“covered persons” in the lingo of the statute) are not just detainable in theory, but affirmatively must be subject to military detention. Section 1032 then goes on, in subpart (b), to state expressly that US citizens are exempt from this “mandatory detention” requirement (though lawful permanent residents are not).

This obviously rules out the idea of a mandatory military detention for US citizens. But note that it tends to rule in the idea that the baseline grant of detention authority in section 1031 does in fact extend to U.S. citizens. Otherwise there would be no need for an exclusion for citizens in section 1032, since the 1032 category is a subset of the larger 1031 category.

Bottom line, YES, it has now been confirmed that the indefinite detainment and murder provisions do apply to American citizens on the streets of American cities. As Senator Lindsey Graham explained in plain language on the Senate floor: “…1031, the statement of authority to detain, does apply to American citizens and it designates the world as the battlefield, including the homeland.”


What is the official definition of a terrorist do you know?
Old    Rich (digg311)      Join Date: Sep 2007       12-07-2011, 1:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
LOL @ Rich. No one has posted anything about the bill except the part I'm mocking. If you have some concerns why not be specific instead of making this a guessing game?
What? How did "Everybody should be in an uproar about this!! Unless you're excited by the possibility of being detained and held indefinitely without a trial or any other due process. Ridiculous." confuse you?
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-07-2011, 1:24 PM Reply   
Rich, you seem to be a bit discombobulated. I've never been in an uproar about "this" at any time. "This" is a word that is very useful and has never disturbed me. OTOH if you expect me to respond to your concerns about a 680 page bill, you might consider offering up a little more information.

And yes... It should concern everyone if an Amercian citizen in the US can be detained by the miltary without the due process of law. Apparently when a bill is written you need a team of lawyers to translate it into a decipherable synopsis before it's voted on. Seems that a bill that orders that should be passed before any other bills.

Now... is that the only section of the bill that we should be in an uproar about?
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-07-2011, 4:15 PM Reply   
What concerns me, is that you guys are in an uproar about this bill, yet during the last debate, every GOP candidate, with the exception of Ron Paul, offered their continued support of the Patriot Act and supporting any act that could circumvent "terrorism". Not one of you guys that are ready to go hide under your mattress, mention that or started a thread with those concerns. It's puzzling to say the least.
Old    SamIngram            12-08-2011, 9:21 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
What concerns me, is that you guys are in an uproar about this bill, yet during the last debate, every GOP candidate, with the exception of Ron Paul, offered their continued support of the Patriot Act and supporting any act that could circumvent "terrorism". Not one of you guys that are ready to go hide under your mattress, mention that or started a thread with those concerns. It's puzzling to say the least.
I'm not happy with the Republican primary at all. The best candidate, with the best record wasn't even allowed to participate. Gary Johnson has a better record in New Mexico than anyone else in any other state. I'll probably vote for Michele Bachmann or Ron Paul in the primary. I will not vote for either Romney or Gingrich.

I actually would like Obama to win again because it will have the greatest overall affect on the people, pertaining to liberty. Obama will continue to steal liberty from the American people and more and more people will wake up. This will lead the way to either a civil-war, great awakening, 10th amendment fight, or all three, and possibly the most conservative, classically liberal, president in US history. We will go through a lot of pain, but the outcome will be great.

But as we all know here, I am absolutely bat-#$@% crazy! I have my guns, my god and my church, my father's work ethic, lots of farm-land, and lots of people who will work with me - I am set.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-08-2011, 9:50 AM Reply   
Too bad we can't have Obama and Romney/Gingrich as co-presidents. Then the American people could see that it makes no difference.

LOL @ Sam. My wife is buying 6.5 acres and a cabin in the woods for the same reason. She used to be very anti-gun, but I told her that in the society she's predicting we'll need to be well armed, and now she agrees.
Old    SamIngram            12-08-2011, 11:35 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Too bad we can't have Obama and Romney/Gingrich as co-presidents. Then the American people could see that it makes no difference.

LOL @ Sam. My wife is buying 6.5 acres and a cabin in the woods for the same reason. She used to be very anti-gun, but I told her that in the society she's predicting we'll need to be well armed, and now she agrees.
I went through the well armed stage, but you will need something else much more important in order to make it through hard times. I remember talking to my grandma about the Great Depression and I remember what my dad has always told me about how he grew up, both talked about the same thing. In both cases they were dirt poor, but had plenty to eat and maintained a good life style.

I have read Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations and understand and even believe in the invisible hand, I think his most important work, which is suppose to go hand-in-hand with the The Wealth of Nations, was The Theory of Moral Sentiments.

What does this have to do with your wife and guns? The answer is in COMMUNITY. I'm not talking about socialism, I'm talking about a community that helps each other based one's own option of doing so, based on the mutual and individual benefit of those in the community. No one is forced to do anything. In every study of apocalyptical survival, every story of making it through the Great Depression, etc... that I have ever heard or read, many people working together always have better results than those working alone.

How are you going to leave your house, without your neighbor watching it for you? How will you plow your 6.5 acres without help? Are you a doctor, a mechanic, a farmer, etc... My community is basically my church. Most of them are like-minded people like me (scary huh?). The gun is for immediate protection and intimidation, my community is for the long haul.

In IL during the summer my church farms 220 acres of my land, I get a charitable deduction, they raise lots of food, including hogs. They also raise commercial crops including soy beans and corn. They sell the commercial crops and fund the Strom Center, 1st Street Armoury, and various other church related charities. Neighboring farmers do most of the work either at a very cheap cost or for free.

In AZ, I let my church, the BSA and the Boys and Girls Club, use my acreage for private camping.

I also lead my neighborhood watch.

Between all these I have a doctor, mechanic, farmer, etc... that I can rely on. So in addition to having a silly amount of guns and practicing a silly amount of time learning to use them, I'm also spending a silly amount of time building my community. BTW, that is what the main purpose of my boat is, to further build my community.

I don't know what everyone thinks about Glen Beck, but I would like to promote his new project. Check it out!

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