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Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       11-08-2011, 12:57 PM Reply   
I guess no university is safe from scandals. My feeling is, "why didn't Joe call the police when all of this surfaced?" This will be stamped to his legacy.
Old    Train (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       11-08-2011, 1:29 PM Reply   
He did not do nearly enough when he was informed about the potential abuse. While he did nothing illegal, he should be fired immediately. Eff his legend. Fire his ash!
Keep in mind, this is based off numerous online reports. I know nothing of what he may have actually done.

Last edited by ttrigo; 11-08-2011 at 1:30 PM. Reason: W
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            11-08-2011, 1:32 PM Reply   
This is far worse then Tressels money /perk coverups with his players.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       11-08-2011, 1:59 PM Reply   
This is horrible. They brought it up on sports radio and brought up a good point. Paterno is/was the most powerful person in and around Happy Valley and the University. He could of done the right thing and demanded the guy be fired/prosecuted immediatly. He did not though. He just passed it along and left it alone. Absolutely disgusting. Paterno should be fired, the football program and/or entire athletic department should be shut down.
Old    Big D (bigdtx)      Join Date: Feb 2005       11-08-2011, 2:05 PM Reply   
If you read the grand jury document this guy (Sandusky) was investigated by the cops in the late 90s for the same thing and suddenly he's no longer in line to replace Paterno and he retires. Then after he's retired he's hanging around high schools and being a volunteer wrestling coach - even though he's never coached wresting.

Finally a high school coach turned him after catching him at night in a gym with a student.

So if you're the head coach at Penn State and your #2 guy is under investigation for child abuse and he spends an unusual amount of time surrounded by children, you have no idea of any of this?

Not credible at all. He obviously covered for the guy - disgusting.

Put 'em all in the same cell.
Old    E.J. (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       11-08-2011, 3:33 PM Reply   
IMO, everyone within a hairs breath of this thing should go down, fired at a minimum, charged if possible.

The grand jury report.... NOTE, it is tough to read and graphic

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/feature?...ews&id=8421115
Old    Matt (duramat)      Join Date: Feb 2008       11-08-2011, 8:56 PM Reply   
damn....

Hes not the first...and he'll not be the last, there will be another bastard that will pick up where he's left off. Its just disgusting. All those that covered up for him should be charged, I agree
Old    Train (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       11-08-2011, 9:51 PM Reply   
Freaking predator. How does that grad assistant not tell the cops about what he saw in the shower? This is not like he witnessed a co-worker taking a computer home when he probably should not have been. You tell your boss if you are unsure of what you saw was wrong. If you see a grown man raping a small boy, you call the fricking cops! You dont call your dad, and then tell your boss! You call the fricking cops!
I hope paterno and everyone else involved is dragged through the streets and beaten. I hope this bankrupts the entire university. Eff them all.
Old    andy zarlengo (colorider)      Join Date: Jun 2001       11-08-2011, 10:08 PM Reply   
Very disturbing.. There is a special place in hell for all of them.
Old    Seth Rozic (RedRum)      Join Date: Nov 2010       11-09-2011, 7:03 AM Reply   
You are a student in your 9th grade math class. Someone approaches you and tells you that he saw someone else cheating on the test. You go to the teacher and tell the teacher what you heard. Do you go back and ask the teacher if she punished the student? Do you go to other teachers and report the claim?

You are at work when a coworker approaches you about seeing two other coworkers trying to break into work over the weekend. You approach your boss and tell him/her that you heard from someone that this had occurred. You don't know any details other than what you were told. Do you approach your boss weekly to see if he has filed a criminal report on those two? Do you call the police and report a "hear-say" attempted burglary?

Yes...the stuff that Jerry Sandusky has done are much much worse/severe/serious than anything that I listed above. That is not the point though. If you are an innocent person told by another that something has happened, you approach your higher-up about it and leave them and the eye-witness to charge the suspects. What evidence does JoePa "hold"? Even if JoePa contacted the authorities...what proof does he have to report someone?

As a PSU alum, I am deeply disturbed by this, and in NO WAY do I condone what Mr. Sandusky has allegedly done. However, the media and the University dragging JoePa into this because they are looking for a way to force him out of his position. They have been looking for a reason for the past few years, and now they have one. Maybe JoePa didn't do the MORAL thing, but he did what he was obligated to do under the law and University protocol. You can't terminate someone on MORAL issues. JoePa has done an amazing amount of philanthropic work for PSU donating millions of his own dollars, as well as building a football program like no other, which in turn generated billions for the school over the years. Talk about biting the hand that feeds.

EDIT: I just heard on television he is retiring after this season. I would of liked to see him go out on top, under better circumstances, but I guess at least he wasn't fired.
Old    Kyle Linsey (kyle_L)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-09-2011, 7:04 AM Reply   
I don't think it's Paterno's responsibility to take this to the AD and if he did, he probably would still have gotten heat for it. Lose Lose situation
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       11-09-2011, 7:13 AM Reply   
Come on... if you were the head coach of a football program and received a report that your assistant coach was raping a boy in the bathroom, how could you even look at the dude again? Every time I saw him walking as a free man i'd feel super guilty. How can you NOT wonder how many other boys he is raping because you have "only done the minimum as required by law". You MUST know it's been swept under a rug if there is an eyewitness account of an actual sexual incident. I agree it's sad JoePa is being drug into this, but he's as culpable as the other admins IMO.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       11-09-2011, 7:24 AM Reply   
Quote:
very time I saw him walking as a free man i'd feel super guilty. How can you NOT wonder how many other boys he is raping because you have "only done the minimum as required by law".
+1
Herm Edwards was on ESPN radio and said something along the lines of:
If I was Joe P. and this was reported, I would have walked up to that man, fired him on the spot and kicked his ass.... who cares if I'm 70 years old, it is my job as an adult, educator, and human to put an end to behavior like this any way possible and protect children.


I totally agree.... this scumbag needs the living **** beat out of him for this crap. Sometime a real-life "dexter" wouldn't be such a bad thing
Old    Seth Rozic (RedRum)      Join Date: Nov 2010       11-09-2011, 7:25 AM Reply   
I understand where the people calling for JoePa's firing are coming from. But look at it this way, hypothetically. If he didn't in fact see it first hand, and escalated the investigation based only on a secondhand he said/she said type of accusation, and it turned out those accusations were false, he would still be in trouble. It would have driven a spike between Paterno and the University/football program/fans etc, and completely destroyed the thing he helped to build. As stated before, it is a lose-lose situation and he is in a world of $hit
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       11-09-2011, 7:44 AM Reply   
Quote:
it is a lose-lose situation and he is in a world of $hit
If he would just retired like a normal person this would have never been a problem.

Quote:
he didn't in fact see it first hand, and escalated the investigation based only on a secondhand he said/she said type of accusation,
Given the situation I don't think you can have people like that on your staff, whether or not the accusations were true or not. In their business and the way Penn State claimed to carry themself there is ZERO tolerance for anything ugly to pop up and they should have seperated themself from the situation ASAP
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       11-09-2011, 8:15 AM Reply   
Seth, forget the protocol. Obviously, when Joe Pa. heard of the allegations in 2002, he thought they were serious enough and there was enough credibility to the assistant's story for him to report to his superiors. If he thought for one second that the guy made it up, why would he report it at all? That being said, every decent human being has a responsibility to report child abuse and [U]suspected[U] child abuse to the proper authorities. No, the proper authorities is not the administration of the school. It's the police. You report what you know and then let them conduct their investigation. The administration obviously thought the reputation of the university was more important than the safety of those children. Do you know how many lives have been potentially ruined because Joe Pa. chose to keep Sandusky's actions as "an internal matter"? It is absolutely sickening for anyone to say that Joe Pa did the right thing. What if one of the victims was your son? How would you feel about Joe Pa's inactions?
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       11-09-2011, 8:19 AM Reply   
"It would have driven a spike between Paterno and the University/football program/fans etc, and completely destroyed the thing he helped to build."

You're kidding me right? You honestly feel that a football program means more than human life? "The thing that he has help build" is destroyed now, this will overshadow all of the wins and championships Joe Pa accumulated at the university.
Old    Train (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       11-09-2011, 8:21 AM Reply   
I am disgusted anyone would even defend paterno because he did what he was "legally obligated" to do. He should have taken that grad asst down to the police station, and had him repeat to them what he said he witnessed. Regardless of job titles, paterno has no one above him on campus. Paterno owns that school, and by him being allowed to retire at the end of the season proves it.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       11-09-2011, 8:52 AM Reply   
Is he the school counselor or LEO? NO. he's a football coach. He took the report and passed it to the appropriate people. He shouldn't step down to save face...
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       11-09-2011, 8:56 AM Reply   
Sandusky is the criminal. With Tim Curley running a close second for not filing the report. Get your facts straight folks. Joe Pa didn't do anything wrong.
Old    dave c (dav51lin)      Join Date: Aug 2004       11-09-2011, 9:04 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidekicknicholas View Post
+1
Herm Edwards was on ESPN radio and said something along the lines of:
If I was Joe P. and this was reported, I would have walked up to that man, fired him on the spot and kicked his ass.... who cares if I'm 70 years old, it is my job as an adult, educator, and human to put an end to behavior like this any way possible and protect children.


I totally agree.... this scumbag needs the living **** beat out of him for this crap. Sometime a real-life "dexter" wouldn't be such a bad thing
There shoulde be no other response than this!!!!
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       11-09-2011, 9:11 AM Reply   
One thing I have been wondering.... since Paterno did "Everything he legally needed to" if he is let go by Penn State does Penn State get slapped with a lawsuit for letting him go?

Technically by the book he hasn't done anything wrong (by normal human code he is a scumbag).... but legally he could stick Penn State with a lawsuit as far as I am understanding the events so far
Old    dave c (dav51lin)      Join Date: Aug 2004       11-09-2011, 9:12 AM Reply   
FIRE HIM NOW !!!!!!! how many childern were raped because joe pathetic looked the other way he failed those children and should be ashamed.His not act is reprehensible.
Old    Seth Rozic (RedRum)      Join Date: Nov 2010       11-09-2011, 9:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
You honestly feel that a football program means more than human life?
You can stop putting words into my mouth at any time.
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       11-09-2011, 10:08 AM Reply   
Nick, I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be willing to guess there is some sort of ethics clause in his contract. the guys is 84 y/o...he's not gonna mess with legal battles. He's on borrowed time if you ask me.
Old    dave c (dav51lin)      Join Date: Aug 2004       11-09-2011, 10:33 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
Sandusky is the criminal. With Tim Curley running a close second for not filing the report. Get your facts straight folks. Joe Pa didn't do anything wrong.
Yes he did nothing and should be ashamed.How many boys continued to be molested and ruined because he did Nothing.
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-09-2011, 11:37 AM Reply   
For those saying Paterno didn't do anything wrong, maybe they should read that grand jury report. Anybody who doesn't go all the way to law enforcement over something like this is a scumbag. He deserves to go over this, and who cares if we ever hear about him again.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       11-09-2011, 12:11 PM Reply   
"You can stop putting words into my mouth at any time."

Okay, then explain what you meant by this comment.

"It would have driven a spike between Paterno and the University/football program/fans etc, and completely destroyed the thing he helped to build."

"Joe Pa didn't do anything wrong."

Nacho, how many boys could have avoided Sandusky's abuse if Joe Pa would have reported the abuse to authorities 10 years ago? And while he shouldn't step down to "save face", he should step down because he is a piece of sheet who put the University's reputation above those kid's well being.
Old    Kyle Linsey (kyle_L)      Join Date: Mar 2010       11-09-2011, 1:15 PM Reply   
Jeremy, if he walked in on the incident, YES he absolutely should have gone to the police, and i bet he would have but you can't just go running to the cops based on something you didn't see that will immediately ruin the guys life if the story wasn't the truth. It was obviously something he saw as above his power in what should be done. Now once the AD looked into the story further THEN the cops should have been informed. I'm sure there is much more to the story than what we know about what happened in 2002. After reading the court documen, I almost puked. Didn't get passed the first kid, it was way to disturbing.
Old    Seth Rozic (RedRum)      Join Date: Nov 2010       11-09-2011, 1:30 PM Reply   
Go back and read what I said in the post I made at 8:25. I was speaking in hypothetical sense. What if he hadn't witnessed the accounts first-hand but still went to the cops with the relayed information. Then it ended up that these allegations were fabricated. Then Paterno would have come out as the bad guy for making false accusations. Granted, he would have done the moral thing, but I guarantee that he would come under fire for not minding his own business and just doing his job, which is to coach football. This is what I meant by driving the spike, no need to read between the lines of valuing football over another human being.

As for the statement "Joe Pa didn't do anything wrong", go back and re-read my posts. I did not state that.

I do wonder if Graham Spanier, the president of PSU was one of the superiors that Paterno informed. What if he had known, but hadn't acted. It seems PSU may have to wipe the entire slate clean.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       11-09-2011, 1:33 PM Reply   
how the hell would I know? Throwing the old man under the bus because everyone else is going down with the program doesn't seem like the right solution either. Tim Curley had the obligation to report it.

And Joe didn't put the univ above anything, he reported it to the AD. The fact that that asshat didn't do anything isn't Joe's responsibility.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       11-09-2011, 2:18 PM Reply   
"Jeremy, if he walked in on the incident, YES he absolutely should have gone to the police, and i bet he would have but you can't just go running to the cops based on something you didn't see that will immediately ruin the guys life if the story wasn't the truth."

If a child's well-being is in danger, you most certainly can go running to the cops. Jesus Christ man, if you heard someone you worked with murdered someone, are you going to go tell your boss?
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       11-09-2011, 2:23 PM Reply   
"Then Paterno would have come out as the bad guy for making false accusations."

Big effing deal. So it is better that he came out as the bad guy for not ending the sexual abuse? Which bad guy would you rather be?
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-09-2011, 2:50 PM Reply   
"And Joe didn't put the univ above anything, he reported it to the AD. The fact that that asshat didn't do anything isn't Joe's responsibility."

No way!!! When someone reports some sick jerk molesting a child, you go straight to the police. It's too bad those working for the Catholic church didn't think this way in the past.
Old    E.J. (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       11-09-2011, 4:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
The fact that that asshat didn't do anything isn't Joe's responsibility.
It sure is..... Passing the buck is EXACTLY what is wrong with this. Let someone else worry about this mess. What is worse, when he sees what happens....he apparently says "so be it..."

My employee comes into my office and says that he witnessed someone raping a child at our workplace, know what I do, I get on the phone and call the police and say, hey....I need you to come listen to a story I have an employee telling me.

I don't pass the buck....I don't staff that call out or hope someone else helps the poor *****ing kid, I get on the phone, right then, and get something done.

That doesn't even mention the fact that at this point, I am WELL AWARE that these same allegations have been made about said molester in the past.

He passed the buck, didn't do anything, because it was a life long friend... JP now states that he wishes he would have done more.


However anyone wants to spin this, great.... I know this, there were a bunch of grown men that were aware that another grown man, who apparently had a history of these type allegations, was seen in a shower, raping a boy....and did NOTHING... I take that back, I think they took the keys to the gym and ask him not to take young boys on the facilities with him or something to that effect..... All these individuals needs to face the music....if that means getting fired, great....if that means getting charged with a crime, great....if that means losing their reputation, great.... I could not care less....
Old    Seth Rozic (RedRum)      Join Date: Nov 2010       11-09-2011, 4:31 PM Reply   
Alright dude...you're completely right and I am completely wrong. There is that better? Is that what you wanted to hear? I guess I have piss-poor communication skills as you can't follow what I am saying. I'm done debating this with you.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       11-09-2011, 7:58 PM Reply   
Well, he has been fired along with the University President. It might be wise to just end the football program and start over from scratch.
Old    Aki (aka: GRAMPS) Savage (akman)      Join Date: Apr 2002       11-09-2011, 9:12 PM Reply   
ETHICS AND MORALITY as human beings we all have obligations towards these values.
Old    Matt (duramat)      Join Date: Feb 2008       11-09-2011, 9:29 PM Reply   
EJ you nailed it on the head. Thats exactly how it should go down and how it should' ve gone down. I really think he knew more than he's saying. I really believe he was told the details and had full knowledge of what was happening. What a shame, that someone who gave the impression that he cared for the youth coming into his football program would turn turn a blind eye and ignore calling the authorities.

I think more victims are out there and theres gonna be alot of money shelled out to victims because of people covering it up. PS is cleaning house and wiping their hands clean.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       11-09-2011, 11:22 PM Reply   
Where were the parents?
Old    E.J. (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       11-10-2011, 7:20 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Where were the parents?
What???? Is that rhetorical? You understand who the kids are, right? What the foundation he was preying through is about? That is not to say he didn't prey on other kids as well.


All that said, so my kid wants to go to DU Hockey Camp and some scum bag assaults him/her in the shower, somehow I should have been there? If it happens, I somehow am sharing in the blame of such an event?

I went to a lot of sport camps as an active youth, many of them week long, stay in the doom, no parents within hundreds of miles.... The organizations putting these things on, where it is being held, is responsible for the kids in their care....end of story.
Old    Eric (mjfan23)      Join Date: Nov 2003       11-10-2011, 7:27 AM Reply   
What exactly did Joe Pa know?

In Hindsight he clearly should have gone to the police... If he only heard 3rd source rumors tho, thats a tough call to make, you indeed would put Penn State all over the news for something that could or couldnt be true? I havent read enough to make an informed decision, so just raising both sides.

All I know is this, in the end the story should not be about Joe Pa, it should be about that asshat committing the crimes and about the victims.

Last edited by mjfan23; 11-10-2011 at 7:30 AM.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       11-10-2011, 8:19 AM Reply   
"Where were the parents?'

Why am I not surprised you posted this?
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       11-10-2011, 8:55 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjfan23 View Post
What exactly did Joe Pa know?

In Hindsight he clearly should have gone to the police... If he only heard 3rd source rumors tho, thats a tough call to make, you indeed would put Penn State all over the news for something that could or couldnt be true? I havent read enough to make an informed decision, so just raising both sides.

All I know is this, in the end the story should not be about Joe Pa, it should be about that asshat committing the crimes and about the victims.
That is not a tough call. We are talking about young boys being raped, not someone stealing money, handing out money to recruits, etc.. He was the most powerful person at the school. hell he was Penn State. He should of called in the police, AD, sandusky, the grad assistant and the university president immediately. Instead he just told the AD and Vice PResident of the school and then walked away. Legally speaking he might not of done anythign wrong but morally and ethically he completely failed. I was just reading an article on ESPN and he never even asked Sandusky about the incident.

He completely tarnished his once great legacy and he has know one to blame but himself.

By the way, anybody who had knowledge of this shoudl be fired immediately.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       11-10-2011, 9:05 AM Reply   
McQueary should've gone to the police in the first place. Ironically, looks like he'll be coaching the game on Saturday.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       11-10-2011, 9:17 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
McQueary should've gone to the police in the first place. Ironically, looks like he'll be coaching the game on Saturday.
That makes no sense. Anybody who knew about it should be fired immediately.

There are new rumors, and I stress RUMORS, "that Jerry Sandusky and Second Mile were pimping out young boys to rich donors"
http://www.businessinsider.com/jerry...donors-2011-11

If true, even sicker and more disturbing.

Last edited by polarbill; 11-10-2011 at 9:22 AM.
Old    Rich (digg311)      Join Date: Sep 2007       11-10-2011, 9:23 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
McQueary should've gone to the police in the first place. Ironically, looks like he'll be coaching the game on Saturday.
This is the part that's killing me! This guy sees, I mean PHYSICALLY SEES, the rape of a 10 year old boy and does almost nothing. First off, why didn't he storm into the shower, save the kid and issue Sandusky a beat down?? Or if that's too much for a frightened graduate assistant to handle, why not call in some support right at that moment? Police, campus security, ANYBODY!!!
Instead, he calls his dad. And then, yes, calls JoePa the next day.

What happened next? Not a damn thing. Oh, except that he ends up being hired as a coach I mean. How could you take a job at a place that you KNEW allowed this type of stuff to go on???? There's blood on this guy's hands as well. I can't understand why the media isn't parked on his lawn demanding answers.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       11-10-2011, 9:26 AM Reply   
^Agreed
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       11-10-2011, 12:30 PM Reply   
Now it turns out that the DA that didn't prosecute the case in 98 went missing in 2005 and has never been found!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sp...r-mystery.html

This whole thing wreeks of cover up and men covering their ass so they don't lose their jobs, meanwhile young boys and young men went on being raped!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       11-10-2011, 1:13 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatepain View Post
Now it turns out that the DA that didn't prosecute the case in 98 went missing in 2005 and has never been found!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sp...r-mystery.html

This whole thing wreeks of cover up and men covering their ass so they don't lose their jobs, meanwhile young boys and young men went on being raped!
WTF, WTF, WTF

This is getting ridiculously disturbing.
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       11-11-2011, 6:24 AM Reply   
from yahoo news this morning.....from the attorney that is representing multiple victims.

"The way the Board reached its decision raises more concerns than the decision itself. There is no indication the Board considered the impact of the decision on the abuse victims. The school let the victims down once, and I think they owed it to the victims to at least gauge how the immediate termination decision would impact them as opposed to Mr. Paterno's resignation at the end of the year. These victims do not live in a bubble. They see the students reaction to the termination, and to think this does not weigh on their minds would be naive."

Last edited by acurtis_ttu; 11-11-2011 at 6:28 AM.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       11-11-2011, 6:25 AM Reply   
Geez this thing is getting out of control

Looks like McQueary will NOT coach vs Nebraska b/c of threats....
Old    doug rose (dougr)      Join Date: Dec 2009       11-18-2011, 4:29 PM Reply   
its sad, just imagine if it was your child, your sibling, etc etc imagine if it was joe's child and did nothing about it. imagine if the abuse was on the children of those who new but where too weak to speak up
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       11-18-2011, 9:13 PM Reply   
Sold his home to his wife a few months ago for $1. Sounds like he knew something bad was coming.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       11-19-2011, 12:14 AM Reply   
It was part of estate planning. Joe has lung cancer. It is supposedly a treatable form but his wife is the care taker of the trust.

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