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Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-27-2011, 10:53 AM Reply   
S&w m&p 15
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Old     (brett33)      Join Date: Apr 2011       10-27-2011, 11:03 AM Reply   
Welcome to the family! Time for some add-ons now! What all are you thinking?
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-27-2011, 11:03 AM Reply   
lol! You didn't...

I think I just cried a little, LeRoy.
Old     (ndh2o)      Join Date: Oct 2001       10-27-2011, 11:11 AM Reply   
Awesome, I shot a slightly customized version of that gun this weekend. Really fun to shoot, and because it was .22cal, it didn't cost a fortune in ammo.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-27-2011, 11:36 AM Reply   
The Zombie Slayer is on Loan from a buddy. He is a GUN whore, I asked him about a AR and 2 Hrs later I had this and some "Zombie Food" Aka Ammo in Hand.
Barry. lets do this!!
Old     (snyder)      Join Date: Feb 2006       10-27-2011, 1:03 PM Reply   
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       10-27-2011, 2:54 PM Reply   
Love it, G. Have fun with that. I guarantee you'll be assembling one in no time. That's almost a twin to my CAR when I first got it. Wearing some different furniture now.

It's a disease. I already have mid-length and a full length AR dreams nightly. Gotta get a couple more lowers here in the near future.

Hit me up if you're in town this weekend. I'm probably going to go to Chabot gun club on saturday morning.
Old     (colorider)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-27-2011, 3:37 PM Reply   
Very Nice.!!!
Agree with Evan,. Its a disease. I finished my first AR build about 4 weeks ago and am building a lower for a good friend right now. Building them is a kick in the pants for me. I am already planning my next ar build. Its insane fun.. OH, also check out Hornadys new Zombie ammo that just came! Cool zombie decorated boxes.
Old     (bear)      Join Date: Apr 2005       10-29-2011, 2:21 PM Reply   
Hey man just make sure you don't run wolf or any metal with it. My buddy and I were out at the gun club range locally and he has the same M&P and it hated!!!!!! wolf and tula. The metal casing stuck in the chamber! Make sure you use brass!
Old     (jon4pres)      Join Date: May 2004       10-30-2011, 11:23 AM Reply   
My dad has one that I recently got out and have been shooting. I am having a blast and am now planning on building a different upper, something set up for shooting hogs and varmits with. Then if I stay interested will build a lower and put on the upper.

I am starting to catch the disease.
Old     (bear)      Join Date: Apr 2005       10-30-2011, 6:50 PM Reply   
building a lower is alot easier than doing and upper! I did a lower in about 30 min, the upper takes alot longer and if you are doing the barrel, free float quad rail chamber... ect. It's a blast though! tones of fun. If your in CA just make sure you do it all legal with the bullet button and stuff. has a great flow chart and ban-list items. You can order everything you need to build your AR on line except your lower. You have to get that through a calfiornia FFL, you can have one shipped to your FFL to due the paper work but they will charge you for that so usually it is just cheaper to get the lower through a local gun shop. That is the only thing that need to be registered. IF you are in CA make sure you read and understand the flow chart on so you stay legal! Have to have a 16 berrel not your M4 14 inch barrel
Old     (colorider)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-30-2011, 8:21 PM Reply   
My Lewis Machine Tool upper does NOT like Tula, or wolf ammo. Wont cycle, and some casings stick. Some guns do fine with it and some don't. A group out here did some tests on the stuff and they are so inconsistant with the loads that the stuff wont even cycle the action on some of our guns. It also burns filthy dirty leaving your chamber and everything a mess. I have ditched the crap and am now shooting the Americal Eagle brass 223. It is more $, but have not had 1 problem with it and have shot about 600 rounds so far thru my new LMT upper.
Old     (brett33)      Join Date: Apr 2011       10-31-2011, 6:49 AM Reply   
+1 for brass. I have a S&W M&P as well and prolonged use with ammo like Wolf and Tula will cause lacquer and/or polymer residue to build up inside the action and eventually plug the gas system. The tolerance in the chamber of a AR15 is much tighter than say an AK47 which is made to shoot steel. IMO steel ammo is not battle friendly.. your system will jam and zombies will kill you.
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       10-31-2011, 10:32 AM Reply   
Steel ammo: That's what you get a AK for.... Mine shoots Russian ammo like it's match grade. Actually darn accurate with the cheap stuff too. Anybody that says a AK isn't accurate obviously either sucks at shooting, or hasn't actually shot one. Now at 100+ yrds it could be a different story, but a AK is a fun little tool for close range.

My AR is brass only. Runs it's like a champ. 5.56 and .223 . I run a lot of the American Eagle .223 and 5.56 55 grain stuff. I also run Fiocci. Haven't noticed one to be more accurate than the other. It all seems happy to do 1-2" groups at a 100m when I've got the scope on it. In about 1000 rounds I've had 1 fail to feed. Looked like the bolt half cycled and pinched the next round. No other failures.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-31-2011, 11:26 AM Reply   
Anybody that says a AK isn't accurate obviously either sucks at shooting, or hasn't actually shot one.
Define accurate for me, please.
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       10-31-2011, 12:26 PM Reply   
hahaha.... I knew that'd get a response from a precision shooter.

No, it wont put round after round in the same hole at 100m, but I sure as hell wouldn't want one shooting at me. Even at 200m.

What's the average combat range: 75yd+/- right? My cheap AK will do 2-3" groups at that range, maybe a flyer here and there, with a red dot and no magnification. For the average shooter I think that qualifies as pretty accurate. Definitely more accurate than I am.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-31-2011, 3:51 PM Reply   
Yeah, yeah... you got me.

I think the redeeming quality for the AK is they're so sloppy you can feed them anything. They weren't really made for accuracy.
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       10-31-2011, 8:43 PM Reply   
Yup. I expected the AK to shoot pretty poorly rafter all the naysaying I'd read. Short of running a scope on my AR it'll run similar groups out to 200m.

The best part: it costs less than my 9mm to feed and it makes a much better bang.

That said, I guess if you're really talking about accurate shooters, then it better be some type of bolt gun, right? I guess practical shooting accurate and competition accuracy are two different things. I doubt I'll ever shoot tenth-inch groups. Hahaha
Old     (bear)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-02-2011, 10:06 PM Reply   
I can tell you I have built my own AR's and AK's, the AR has a sightly better grouping but honestly not by much. The AK if done right is an accurate weapon! Both the AR and the AKS will have very close grouping at 50 - 100 yards, in my opinion and experience. After 100 yards the AR does hold a better grouping. Mind you if you get a cheaper AR and compare it to a cheaper AK the AR will for sure be a better grouping. For instance if you compare a Stag or M&P AR to a WSAR then you will see the AR has a better grouping, but if you have any Stag or M&P compared to a Sega AK, or other higher end AK they will be very very close. Now if you step up to a higher AR and comp AR then yeah, you are also spending alot more. The nice thing about AR's is that you can change things out all the time. Love both the AR and AK. I love the kick of the AK 7.62 x 39 vs the 223!
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       11-11-2011, 3:42 PM Reply   
In Action
Old     (04outback)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-11-2011, 6:25 PM Reply   
I have a Rock River lower on the way. ?suggestions for upper? Rather go with complete upper for now. Looking at DPMS oracle A3 flat top. Anyone know anything on this or have other suggestions?
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       11-11-2011, 7:04 PM Reply   
Why not order a Rock River upper to match your lower?

DPMS wouldn't be my first choice. There are a lot of options out there. LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool), BCG (Bravo Company) and DD (Daniel Defense) all supply military and make top notch stuff that really isn't that much more expensive. Some of them have a long back log for orders. Model 1 has amazing barrel's (ER Shaw) and suprisingly nice lower parts kits (now... they used to suck). Delton makes some nice mid level stuff. The list goes on forever.

Go to . There is a ton to read. You could read for days about what build is right for you. My personal recomendation for a first gun would be a 16" A3/A4 with a mid-length gas system or CAR lenghth if you like the shorter handguards. Add whatever style rear site you like. I would go for a free floated/railed hand guard, A2 front site, chrome lined barrel, chamber and BCG. You can spec it all on RRA's site or Model 1's if you choose to go that way. If you want to save a bit of coin, but want the flexibility to add accessories then check out the Magpul MOE hand guards and stock. It's a really nice set-up over the stock handguard and CAR/M4 stock and not real expensive.

Good luck. There's a ton of info out there. Make sure you make it legal for your state. There are a lot of rules out there for some states.
Old     (04outback)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-11-2011, 7:13 PM Reply   
Thanks Guido. Rock river is an option for sure. I'll look into those you mention. I'm I'm NY and NY basically adheres to 94 ban guidelines.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       11-11-2011, 7:17 PM Reply   
You know whats funny. The Friend that LENT me his AR said, "All these guys that trick out their AR's are kinda Crazy".
He said a AR is like a Tractor. Its Ment to do one thing "PLOW THE FIELD" Now I'm sure they make Titainum Tractor Plowing blades that cost way more then the factory that Im sure some guy could prove worked better than the orignal Steel one that comes on the tractor factory. But in the end all you have is a Tractor sure its tricked out but its still a Tractor ment to Plow the Field.

Evan come up to the lake Bring your Bike Your Wakeboard your Gun and what ever else you got! And your Wife! ( My'n needs a partner in crime while you and I doing the guy thing) We will have some fun!
Old     (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       11-11-2011, 8:33 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by grant_west View Post
You know whats funny. The Friend that LENT me his AR said, "All these guys that trick out their AR's are kinda Crazy".
He said a AR is like a Tractor. Its Ment to do one thing "PLOW THE FIELD" Now I'm sure they make Titainum Tractor Plowing blades that cost way more then the factory that Im sure some guy could prove worked better than the orignal Steel one that comes on the tractor factory. But in the end all you have is a Tractor sure its tricked out but its still a Tractor ment to Plow the Field.
Disagree..If you want a "tractor," the trusty AK is what you want. A AR can be a tactical killing machine in the right hands. Each of those attachments is made for a mission, each with a advantage and disadvantage.

Agreed, that the average Joe does not need all these attachment..then again, the average joe does not need a AR. When your life is on the line, spare no expense. I personally wouldn't own one without at least a acog or eotech sight.
Old     (04outback)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-12-2011, 4:28 AM Reply   
The dpms has great feedback on Midway USA I like the flat top design of the dpms and it has a small rail in front of the foregrip.
I have others that recommend it as well. There are a couple of rra designs I like as well.
Im not in a hurry but I am also OCD about when I start something like this I don't wanna wait too long to finish.

Zombies beware.... I'm preparing for the apocalypse.
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       11-14-2011, 10:49 AM Reply   
Grant, that sounds like a lot of fun. We've talked about doing that for a while. One of these days we'll have to put it together.

I also kinda disagree about the tractor analogy and agree that a AK is a tractor. The AR is a very flexible tool with a ton of different uses. Everything from short barrel rifles to long range sniper set-ups. That CAR is a very versatile tool with the removable carry handle. You can use it as is, or remove it and install a site or a scope. That's why I chose the same platform for my first build. I just bought three more lowers on friday night. I probably wont build all three right now, but I definitely have another build in mind. There are guys over at that have 10+ AR's. Sounds a bit crazy to me, but to each their own, right? They're probably think the stereo's in our boats are crazy.

AFAIK New York is a AWB state. You may have to buy an upper with a welded muzzle brake and fixed length stock. Again, check all your laws. Model 1 and RRA have AWB compliant uppers. Mine was originally a AWB upper. It's has a welded brake. I've changed things a bit as CA is less strict.
Old     (04outback)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-14-2011, 11:36 AM Reply   
Correct on AWB! Besides the weather, there are a few things here in NY that really make me Miss Mississippi! (Like Pistol Permits and AWB).
Main issues as you mention are Pinned stock.. thats easy.. was gonna go with an A2 stock, but decided I want look of adjustable. Its a 10 minute job to pin.
10 SHOT CLIP.. UGH.. that's a more of a visual than functional issue.. but there are a few mfgs that make either full length 20/30 shot mags that are blocked as well as others that have a visual extension. (FWIW.. there is a separate 5 SHOT MAX MAG limit for hunting as well)
Oddly, you cant have a flash suppressor, but you can have a muzzle brake, permanently affixed.
My upper has a flash hider, but i have ordered a brake to put on it and have it welded / pinned.

fortunately, the muzzle brake will be the only perm mod if i ever move outta NY (READ WHEN)

gettin kinda excited! Zombies and Coyotes beware
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       11-14-2011, 4:17 PM Reply   
For general shooting the muzzle brake is nice except for the the guy next to you that gets blasted with your muzzle gasses.

CA isn't all that different. We're allowed to have adjustable stocks, but a 30" minimum. 16" minimum barrel length (pinned 14.5 works, too) We're allowed to have a removable brake, but not flash hiders. 10 round mags and tooled magazine releases here, too.

I have a fixed CAR style butt stock like on the M&P 15 above that I'd be willing to part with if you're interested. It has a recoil pad on it and comes with a buffer tube. $25 plus shipping. Probably just going to sit in my closet indefinitely.
Old     (colorider)      Join Date: Jun 2001       11-14-2011, 9:31 PM Reply   
I believe one of the best mods you can to to any AR is to upgrade the trigger group. The stock ones that come with lower parts kits, or with stock AR-s are poo.
I put a Rock River 2 stage in my build and love the feel of it. Zero creep and crisp.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-23-2011, 7:01 PM Reply   
The way to make friends in the "209" is tell people you have a AR 15. Turns out lots of people have them and like to shoot. God Bless Hill Billys
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Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-26-2011, 11:56 AM Reply   
It's amazing how many AR's are out there. I was at the range two days ago and one of the old guys next to me had walked the line and was telling his buddy that he counted 40. I've got 4 that I'm in process on right now. I built one lower that is going to be a dedicated .22 rimfire. My next Rock River upper should be showing up anyday that is going on a mid-distance rifle. 1-4x scope on that one with a grip pod bi-pod and a nice single stage trigger. The original one that I have is staying pretty basic. Iron sights, flashlight mount, basic mil spec trigger group. The last one I'm building is a long range guy. It's going to take a while to get that one together. I'd like to assemble from scratch a precision upper with a big scope and bi-pod. 2 stage trigger on that one.

it's a sickness for sure. Lot's of fun, though.

Andy, I've been toying with putting my own triggers together. I started with a DPMS lower parts kit. You can put a set screw in the grip screw hole and adjust it to eliminate trigger creep. Then I polished the trigger and hammer sear faces without going through the hardening. The one that is goinng with the .22 I left the stock springs and hammer. It feels nice. The other one I lightened the hammer and ordered another spring kit (trigger, disconnectoor and hammer). We'll see how that one turns out. I'm thinking it should be really nice.
Old     (colorider)      Join Date: Jun 2001       12-26-2011, 3:41 PM Reply   
Evan ,
I did a rock river comp match trigger in mine and a geissele in the build for' my buddy in California. Both are fantastic. Extremely crisp and smooth 2'stage triggers.
No tweaking needed. Only downside is the price. But I think it is very well worth it.
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       12-30-2011, 10:14 AM Reply   
I own 3 of them. U can.never have too many. My Colt is my duty carry rifle. These things are like boats n cars. There is soooooo much useless stuff that the avg person has no use for that just makes the coolness factor multiply exponentially. My other 2 are M&P's. I really want a piston rifle but just can't seem to scourge up the extra cash for it. Well that and we have yet to approve a piston rifle for duty yet which makes absolutely zero sense.
If you shoot a ton I highly suggest getting the guts coated. Makes cleaning a piece of cake and helps the gun run smooth. Stay away from the wolf in your AR. It is pure garbage. It will cause so many malfunctions as the quality is awful.

The AK is much less finicky with ammo. That gun is built to mow people down with next to zero maintainence. As far as pure kill power the AK blows the pants off an AR. However its a much less precise and adaptable weapon than the AR in my opinion.

Last edited by xstarrider; 12-30-2011 at 10:21 AM.
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       12-30-2011, 10:20 AM Reply   
And just for those zombie killers to practice
Old     (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       12-30-2011, 11:22 AM Reply   
what's it cost to put these together for a standard build?
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       12-30-2011, 12:21 PM Reply   
If you are doing it piecemeal 600 can easily get you going for quality parts. That's bone stock of course
Old     (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       12-30-2011, 12:44 PM Reply   
^^ not bad at all..

I don't have to talk like a wigger like the dude shooting the vid though, right? (that you Grant?)
Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       12-30-2011, 1:59 PM Reply   
You can shoot ganstar style with an AR also....hahahaha
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       12-30-2011, 6:32 PM Reply   
You guys have seen my 7.62 Zombie brain reallignment device. This one is for a more subtle approach. Shhhh!

Old     (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       12-30-2011, 8:57 PM Reply   
The whole M&P Family. Love their products......

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Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-31-2011, 1:04 PM Reply   
My AK makes converts everytime it comes out. It's so much fun, but definitely not refined like the AR. Can't wait to get my new RRA gun together.
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       01-03-2012, 12:40 PM Reply   
I'm hoping to have the extra cash for a 7.62 suppressor come bonus time. Then in the 6 months waiting for it, Im gonna build an AR in 300 Blackout. Have you guys seen this caliber and how it integrates into a current AR setup? Basically just a barrel change.
Old    SamIngram            01-03-2012, 2:51 PM Reply   
I just got this for my mom. It goes to the gunsmith for a moon clip conversion tomorrow morning. If goes well, I'll have my two .357's done too.
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