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Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-21-2011, 2:17 AM Reply   
California becomes first state to adopt cap-and-trade program

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,1125437.story

More scams from California and it's insane California Air Research Board. Pay to pollute. I bet this will line Al Gore's pocket nicely. Have fun with your high prices and lost jobs. California will be a third world country soon enough I suppose.
Old    Randy Paul (wakeskatethis)      Join Date: May 2011       10-21-2011, 8:08 AM Reply   
Being born and raised in Cali this makes me truly believe that sheeple do exist!!
Old    Dave Diaz (wakebrdr94)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-21-2011, 10:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
California becomes first state to adopt cap-and-trade program

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,1125437.story

More scams from California and it's insane California Air Research Board. Pay to pollute. I bet this will line Al Gore's pocket nicely. Have fun with your high prices and lost jobs. California will be a third world country soon enough I suppose.

Even with our crappy economy here, we still have the 8th LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD. We're not going anywhere. And face it, carbon credits are nothing new. Yes the program sucks like every program, but every now and the business needs a push. Everyone has to adapt to change. Look at tower records and blockbuster, companies that were were on top and failed to adapt. What happens to the oil companies when someone perfects clean electric cars that are affordable and out perform current cars? They'll be forced to change. Hell, you've already seen here on wakeworld companies are starting to developed electric wake boats. So is any of this really a surprise?
Old    SamIngram            10-21-2011, 11:42 AM Reply   
I thought that Massachusetts had the first Cap & Trade system...

RGGI, or the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       10-21-2011, 12:54 PM Reply   
Someone, if California is so horrible, why don't you just pack up and move?
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-21-2011, 2:16 PM Reply   
RGGI only includes the electricity sector and is in 10 states: Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island and Vermont. California's Cap-and-Trade is includes any facility that emits more than 25,000 tons of CO2 equivalent. Additionally, the CA Cap-and-Trade is only 10-15% of the total for California's overall GHG reductions.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-22-2011, 2:48 AM Reply   
If my kids were not out here and I did not have time in toward a pension, I would be out in a heart beat.

Regardless if I move, it is still an infection on the world. If I live here or not it still exists and idiot liberals like this still are in America. I still may have to if they keep this stuff up. They have their hands in you pocket at every turn. I try to do as little as possible to have to deal with the government as I can. I have sold my motorcycles so I don't have to deal with the state and I sold my boat so I don't have to deal with them either. I do the least I can in regards to the state. It is getting to the point you have to be a lawyer to even exist. Last week I had to prove to the county that I am not a landlord or they were going to force me into a program where they come by and inspect my home. I guess many people got this letter. If I did not respond they were going to put a lean against my home. Funny thing is, I never rented out anything in my life. The county just rolls out programs and says prove to us that you do not do such and such. My wife is born and raised in California and if she had here way, we would be packing yesterday.

We have a friend who was in the middle of a divorce. She actually had the job and bought the house but here husband stayed. They finally got the paperwork completed and he signed over everything to her in the house. He is moving out of the country. Turns out she goes to get her stuff and there a squaters in the house. They called the cops on her (she is a cop) and they would not let her get any of her stuff. They are living on her furniture and the whole works. If she can not prove the stuff in the house is hers, they are most likely going to get to walk away with it. In California, if you are a wage earner and are trying to do the right things, then you are part of the problem according to the state.

The Cap and Trade is not about getting companies to get moving on new tech. It is a share the wealth scam. They figure it is going to force around 10 billion dollars a year to change hands from these companies. It is just like anything in California and the environmental movement. If you pay enough it is ok to pollute or whatever else you want to do. I don't understand what people are thinking. That money is going to go out of the hands of workers. For the companies that stay, they will just put the costs onto the consumers or they are going to leave period. I don't get how these liberal don't understand basic human nature and money.

As far as the 8th largest economy, we used to be something like the 3rd and a couple years ago people used to say we were the 5th largest. We are heading down fast. We are growing with illegal aliens but workers and business are moving out.
Old    Dave Diaz (wakebrdr94)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-22-2011, 8:38 AM Reply   
Ok, i'm going to keep this as brief as I can based on your comments above.

1. You sold your bikes and boat so you don't have to deal with the state. Yes, because no other states have registration fees. There's more to the story.

2. You got sent a letter for being a landlord. Yes mistakes happen, I was sent a bill saying I owed taxes on a boat I sold two years ago. I had to prove with bank statements the boat was sold. Was it a pain in the ass, heck yeah, but nothing that could not be handled.

3. Your friend with squatters in her house, there is more to the story. The husband probably invited these people in, now it is their place of residence. She'd be able to get them out easily if it was as you stated. But I will give any instance of not paying for where you live is wrong. My neighbor hasn't made a mortgage payment in two years, and is still in his house while I bust my ass for my stuff. Still more to your friends story.

4. Your right, the cap n trade is about dollars, but if companies don't want to pay it, find a better way. Get out of their comfort zone and find a better way.

I would consider my self in the middle of liberal and conservative, and with saying that, (at the boat risk of getting blasted), I don't understand why most hard working middle class people are just full conservative. Yes there are some good points, but IMO, as far as monetary policy goes, why would you back them? I get the no more tax thing, we just need more responsible spending, but on a personal level, when was the last time a conservative tax initiative benefited you and I and not the rich? Im assuming you're not collecting dividends every quarter, or differing taxes every year at the cost of 100k to do so. And if you actually listen to the financial's of these companies, there making a ton of money right now, just not sharing the wealth. Which is fine, they dont have to.

And to your point about you would be gone if it werent for this or that. You are in your comfort zone, everyone has a choice. You don't like your job, quit and find another one. So if you don't like it, there are 49 other states that would love to have you. You have the choice to leave, but for whatever reason you are choosing to stay. So quit complaining and get bill or law started to change it. Your you can just continue to complain and do nothing.

Im just tired of hearing complaints, about how bad everything is. Yes times are tough, stuff sucks, but if everyone who complained about everything would focus that energy into looking for solutions, we'd all be better off.

*pardon typos from my fat thumb and smart phone.

Last edited by wakebrdr94; 10-22-2011 at 8:43 AM. Reason: typos
Old    Randy Paul (wakeskatethis)      Join Date: May 2011       10-22-2011, 1:54 PM Reply   
Dave, do you work for the Government??? When a company or corporation has to shell out more money that does not mean they are going to make less. They will add it on to the consumer who ends up paying more. Sounds like you got it maid but really, how many more taxes do we have to pay?
Old    Randy Paul (wakeskatethis)      Join Date: May 2011       10-22-2011, 1:58 PM Reply   
Accounts Receivable Tax

Building Permit Tax

Capital Gains Tax

CDL license Tax

Cigarette Tax

Corporate Income Tax

Court Fines (indirect taxes)

Dog License Tax

Federal Income Tax

Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)

Fishing License Tax

Food License Tax

Fuel permit tax

Gasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)

Hunting License Tax

Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)

Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)

IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)

Liquor Tax

Local Income Tax

Luxury Taxes

Marriage License Tax

Medicare Tax

Property Tax

Real Estate Tax

Septic Permit Tax

Service Charge Taxes

Social Security Tax

Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)

Sales Taxes

Recreational Vehicle Tax

Road Toll Booth Taxes

School Tax

State Income Tax

State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)

Telephone federal excise tax

Telephone federal universal service fee tax

Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes

Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax

Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax

Telephone state and local tax

Telephone usage charge tax

Toll Bridge Taxes

Toll Tunnel Taxes

Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)

Trailer registration tax

Utility Taxes

Vehicle License Registration Tax

Vehicle Sales Tax

Watercraft registration Tax

Well Permit Tax

Workers Compensation Tax

COMMENTS: Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago and our nation was the most prosperous in the world, had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world and Mom stayed home to raise the kids. What the hell happened?
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       10-22-2011, 6:44 PM Reply   
Keep voting in the likes of Barbra Boxer,Nancy Pelosi and Jerry Brown it sounds like its working great in California.
Old    Dave Diaz (wakebrdr94)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-22-2011, 8:26 PM Reply   
I do not work for the government, and if I did, I would probably hold the title Dictator . Don't mis interpret my feelings. Do I think we are over taxed, absolutely! The list above (and the items not listed) are proof of that. No I am not rich, if I was I wouldn't pay taxes. very little known fact, that you can pay to defer your taxes for up to 7 years, Why one might ask. Well, if I owe 2 million in taxes, I'll pay 100k and defer. If the IRS happens to forget about it, I've just saved 1.9 mil. I promise you if I owed 300 dollars, the IRS is not going to stop hounding me.

My point is that a lot of people take this conservative approach to monetary policy, and less than 1% of it actually helps out the rest of us. Everyone was so quick to give a big thumbs up with the government rebate check of $600, but in the big picture, who did that help long term.

I agree with about half of the conservative approach, so please don't think I'm bashing, I just think that most people do not understand or know enough when it comes to fiscal policy. The media is no help with their scare tactics.

The most recent example is B of A charging that stupid $5 monthly fee for using an ATM card in response to be the government limiting what banks can charge merchants for accepting Debit cards. Soooo..... the government was trying to help business, and B of A gets pissed and charges the rest of us. Again, what the media didn't tell you is that if you kept a minimum balance of 1500 dollars, they would wave the fee. That might be good for those who have that in the bank, but a lot of people don't.

now living in so cal, I really think we need to stop giving away all these benefits to these illegals in the state. The state can't pay the schools, but can pay this group of individuals all this money to sit back, not pay taxes, and keep having kids. Liberals definitely have it wrong on a lot of these policy's

Are taxes bad? It depends. if we actually spent the revenue collected on services like public safety, and not lining the pockets of corrupted poiticians and their friends, then sure, I'll pay more. I'm willing to pay more for the greater good, we just have to make sure the people in office that we elect are going to be held accountable. Government is not blame for all evil, just some of it.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-23-2011, 2:45 AM Reply   
1) On selling stuff. Yes there is always more. A very large reason is the state raised the rates registration by 40% in one year. I pay $600 dollars a year alone for a truck that costs under $30,000 dollars. Never mind having other crap. I was tired of being nickeled and dimed to death so I said screw it.

2) I also got a letter about a boat I had sold previously and I got a letter about a truck I sold previously too. I also came close to losing my drivers license because of a window tint ticket that they sent to my old house I had not lived at for a while (and yes I did my address change). I had to go to court and take a day off to get it resolved. Point is, the state is in our pocket big time and now if they feel you owe registration or anything (right or wrong) they will then move to the tax board and levy your taxes for it. I don't know of too many other states that deal with this.

3) On my friend with a house, the husband may or may not have invited them in but the cops that showed up already knew they were professional squatters and told my friend of said detail. From what I understand it is becoming a issue with people in Arizona as well. People come back from vacation and illegals have moved themselves in from what I understand. In California, the person in the house has all the rights. There are a bunch of hoops you have to do to get them out and it usually takes 6 months minimum. On your neighbor. Just like you said to me, I am sure there is more details than your neighbor not paying for 2 years while you work.

4) Companies in regard to cap and trade sure can do what they want, they can just leave or shut down or pass the cost on to us. If you actually read the article in regards to the regulation, the board admits that it will cost jobs but hopes to one day replace them with green jobs. Also, another government group has calculated that the new regulation will cost Californian households almost $4000 extra dollars a year by 2020 for energy. Like my democrat buddy said, he doesn't care because it does not effect him directly. That is a selfish way to think about it. It is going to effect a ton of people. I don't care if a business gets to keep more of the money, because that money usually ends up being invested, keeps product cost down, hires more workers, or buys more products.

On your question of conservative or not if you are middle class, I have my thoughts as usual. First, the middle class is who makes the money that keeps the economy alive. With that, the middle class tends to understand cause and effect. They tend to own homes, cars, and have families. They understand social consequences, they understand finance and who really gives jobs.

I will ask this. Why is it I only hear from liberal types (in regarding conservatives and the way they vote) is the question of why would you vote for what appears to be their best interests? The reason is, a educated person would realize it is not in their best interests to vote for money from the government. Sure it may feel good in the short term, but, it will soon make the country broke and ultimately put more burden on the middle class. who voted for the money in the first place. That is why I get so mad a democrats and you are not the only person I heard say this. They all talk about voting for their best interests. That is selfish and short sighted. Who cares if someone else is getting rich. Does that stop you from getting rich? Most of the richest people in the world are democrats. Why don't democrats hate rich democrats?

Remember this quote? "Ask not what your country can do for you, but, what you can do for your country?" I am pretty sure that does not mean for you to always vote for your best interest but maybe looking at the interest of the whole. As far as doing something. That is why I posted this article to warn people because they have kept it pretty quiet. Most people do not realize what the left is in this country and they are squarely in control of the democrat party right now. This is what people in the country are voting for and they do not realize it. If they do, then heaven help us.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-23-2011, 5:19 AM Reply   
Btw. Cap and Trade most likely won't hurt me much or cost me my job but it still pisses me off that others will be hurt for a junk science dream.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       10-23-2011, 6:51 PM Reply   
Someone, your problem is that you actually believe that conservative politicians have a different mantra as opposed to their democrat counterparts. Conservative politicians want big government just as bad, if not more. They just get some irrelevant moral issue associated with their cause (taking care of the ultra-wealthy), and people like Someone (and countless others) swallow every word as if it was the gospel. Answer this. If tax cuts create jobs, then WTF happened with the Bush tax cuts?
Old    Dave Diaz (wakebrdr94)      Join Date: Jul 2010       10-23-2011, 8:14 PM Reply   
Someone,
I want you to know that I wasn't trying to attack you personally, so if it sounds that way, I apologize.

And even though we obviously disagree on things, if you're ever down this way, hit me up for a ride. We just wont talk politics, but we can ride and discuss boats
Old    David Langston (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       10-24-2011, 8:16 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
Someone, your problem is that you actually believe that conservative politicians have a different mantra as opposed to their democrat counterparts. Conservative politicians want big government just as bad, if not more. They just get some irrelevant moral issue associated with their cause (taking care of the ultra-wealthy), and people like Someone (and countless others) swallow every word as if it was the gospel. Answer this. If tax cuts create jobs, then WTF happened with the Bush tax cuts?
the economy grew something like 20% under Bush until the very end when it all fell apart. and the fall apart had nothing to do with the tax cuts and everything to do with oil price spike and an over abundance of consumer credit
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-24-2011, 9:29 AM Reply   
"The cost of energy is expected to rise, although economists debate the magnitude. " And, once again, who is impacted by this the most--the poor, the middle class. Just another way to squeeze money out of the consumer by triclkle-down taxes.
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-24-2011, 9:38 AM Reply   
Politicans should have to display their sponsors like professional athletes do. Pay particluar attention to paragraph six and you'll understand why these politicans are "going green."
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-24-2011, 9:39 AM Reply   
Sorry, maybe the URL will show up on this post http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/car-co...ry?id=14770875
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-24-2011, 10:51 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakebrdr94 View Post
4. Your right, the cap n trade is about dollars, but if companies don't want to pay it, find a better way. Get out of their comfort zone and find a better way.
Cap and Trade is the preferred method of compliance to AB 32 by the companies required to make GHG emission reductions. While "finding a better way" is your solution without knowing the processes of each capped facility what you do not realize is that most of these California facilities are the most efficient in the world. So in essence there is NO better way for some of these facilities in California. And with CEQA being what it is, it will take 5-7 years to permit emission reduction projects at any of these facilities. As AB 32 is a 2020 goal that means the clock will have run out.

The most important thing about any Cap-and-Trade program is how the revenues are recycled back into the economy, which is a debate that has not started in California. For those who believe this will not effect them watch your utility bills and price of CA gasoline expect about 20-30% on utility bills by 2015 and $0.10 per $10 of allowance value for transportation fuels.

This will disadvantage some industries that compete globally such as food processing, refining, glass, and heavy manufacturing. While you could say these corporations are making profits, as a good corporation should, you have to realize each facility must stay competitive or profitable otherwise they are at risk for cut-backs or shutdowns. Most of the capped facilities employ thousands of skilled laborers so this is a substantial concern for California if there are shutdowns.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       10-24-2011, 3:08 PM Reply   
"the economy grew something like 20% under Bush until the very end when it all fell apart. and the fall apart had nothing to do with the tax cuts and everything to do with oil price spike and an over abundance of consumer credit"

This is what I found happened thanks to the tax cuts.

"Economists, including the Treasury Secretary at the time Paul O'Neill and 450 economists, including ten Nobel prize laureates, who contacted Bush in 2003, opposed the 2003 tax cuts on the grounds that they would fail as a growth stimulus, increase inequality and worsen the budget outlook considerably (see Economists' statement opposing the Bush tax cuts).[23] Some argued the effects of the tax cuts have been as promised as revenues actually increased, the recession of 2000 ended, and the economy flourished.[24]
Critics indicate that the tax revenues would have been considerably higher if the tax cuts had not been made.[25][26] Income tax revenues in dollar terms did not regain their FY 2000 peak until 2006.[2] The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has estimated that extending the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts (which were scheduled to expire in 2010) would cost the U.S. Treasury nearly $1.8 trillion in the following decade, dramatically increasing federal deficits."
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-24-2011, 6:33 PM Reply   
Jeremy,

While I can appreciate what you are saying, I don't agree with you on all fronts. Yes, the republicans have been growing the government too. You also have to realize the democrats would not pass a budget since 2006. They just kept passing continuing resolutions for the budget because they like how much we were spending. Then there is a reason the democrats kept the Bush Tax Cuts. Just like they were against Iraq publicly (even though their voting record and their words leading up to it says they were for it), they were also for the Bush Tax Cuts. I don't think many of you realize that the Bush Tax Cuts also moved the burden of taxs up to the wealthiest Americans. He eliminated the lower tax bracket and made the rich pay more. That is why the democrats did not push harder to let it expire. Nothing like the truth to tie your hands.

One thing you don't get is the republicans are not the only ultra rich. Bill Gates, George Soros, Steve Jobs (rip) were all democrats. I am sure there is a list of others. Ultra rich is not reserved for one party or the other like people are taught to believe.

That leads me to my last point. I can not change the fact the rich will be rich. Personally, I don't care. I don't buy into that anyway. What does get me are misinformed do gooders and a party of progressives (now main stream democrats) that whole vision is all people around the globe are the same (read the World Workers Party credo). Read what your party is for and you will see where they are trying to lead us. The progressives are massively in charge in Kalifornia and they are in this lock step. I am trying to warn you what is happening here. It is not about who gets to split the wealth between the workers and owners (classic mid-America Democrat vs Republican argument). It is complete craziness. These people do not believe in America. They even get mad if some flys an American Flag. These people are crazy and you guys are following them down the drain.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-24-2011, 6:38 PM Reply   
On Bush, only reason the economy grew was the fake housing bubble. There was nothing for the economy to really grow on in the first place. People don't realize that it takes investment for the economy to grow. That is why it is stupid to get pissed at corps. If not for large money, you don't have a job.
Old    David Langston (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       10-24-2011, 9:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
Critics indicate that the tax revenues would have been considerably higher if the tax cuts had not been made.[25][26] Income tax revenues in dollar terms did not regain their FY 2000 peak until 2006.[2] The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has estimated that extending the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts (which were scheduled to expire in 2010) would cost the U.S. Treasury nearly $1.8 trillion in the following decade, dramatically increasing federal deficits."
this may be true but lets face it, the federal government does not have a revenue problem, they have a spending problem. we used to not have an income tax at all and the world still went round. i am not saying completely abolish a major revenue source for the feds because lets face it, back then we did not have the roads and such we have today so we need more revenue. I think the government should be able to run on 10% flat tax, 15% absolute max. Everyone pays, no deductions. Or does the sales tax and that way even people getting paid cash under the table pay and you can save money by eliminating pretty much all of the IRS.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       10-25-2011, 5:12 AM Reply   
^David, if the US govt had a zero balance, then you initiate the flat tax or whatever and you control spending. I agree on that 100%. But the problem is, we have a 14 trillion or so deficit. And this wasn't created by one man or one party, despite what lawmakers want you to believe. Imagine how much it costs us in interest alone.

Someone, Democratic lawmakers are leading us down the same road Republican lawmakers. Both of their sole missions is to keep their jobs in public office. They gave up serving the American people many years ago. To believe otherwise is asinine.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-25-2011, 10:15 AM Reply   
I guess since this is now about taxation we could talk about use of revenues. My preferred method would be a Pigovian approach. Eliminate payroll tax and use revenues from the CnT program to fill those accounts. Essentially, you create the market incentive to reduce consumption of emissions intensive products while lowering a barrier to employment.

That being said, I doubt CA lawmakers will have the foresight to make a strategic decision along those lines and will likely use the revenues to pay for bloated and ineffective existing programs.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-25-2011, 10:17 AM Reply   
My second suggestion would be to use the revenues to establish a competitive grant program for GHG emission reduction projects. Thus relieving the costs of compliance to AB 32 and achieving the in-state emission reductions localized environmental organizations push for in their opposition to a CnT.
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-26-2011, 8:30 AM Reply   
"the federal government does not have a revenue problem, they have a spending problem" That's it exactly!!! And ,as a result of this spending problem, both parties have to create new ways to raise money to supprt the spending and/or cover their investment(s).
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-26-2011, 9:58 AM Reply   
What does the Federal Government have to do with the California Cap-and-Trade program?
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       10-26-2011, 11:55 AM Reply   
^My thoughts exactly!
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-27-2011, 5:11 AM Reply   
Well, the fed actually rejected cap and trade (even though Algore wanted more than anything in the world) and California passed it. Point is, the cap and trade will pull $10 billion from companies thus out of the hands of workers and investments. It will also create a competitive disadvantage for California Companies and by 2020 cost the average household $4000 annually in fuel bills. That is a car payment alone for many.

The money is going to be moved to Goldman Sachs and companies like that in their new carbon exchanges and also to large land holders who have to promise 100 year non-development. This is a bad move no matter which way you slice it. It is a fake currency at best. The state is not interested in cleaning up the air since you can buy your way out of it. It is about money pure and simple and someone yet again bribed the politicians into a money scheme on the taxpayers backs. This money is going to a few select few who own carbon exchanges and land. Nothing more/ nothing less. You want the federal tie in on this? It was when Obama allowed the EPA to regulate CO2. That gave the state and this private money men the power to get this off the ground in California.
Old    Ron T (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-27-2011, 10:00 AM Reply   
Even worse is when California loses its competetive edge and forces these mandates on the other 49 states.
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-27-2011, 11:22 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laker1234 View Post
Even worse is when California loses its competetive edge and forces these mandates on the other 49 states.
This is a state law and has no authority over the other 49 states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Well, the fed actually rejected cap and trade (even though Algore wanted more than anything in the world) and California passed it. Point is, the cap and trade will pull $10 billion from companies thus out of the hands of workers and investments. It will also create a competitive disadvantage for California Companies and by 2020 cost the average household $4000 annually in fuel bills. That is a car payment alone for many.

The money is going to be moved to Goldman Sachs and companies like that in their new carbon exchanges and also to large land holders who have to promise 100 year non-development. This is a bad move no matter which way you slice it. It is a fake currency at best. The state is not interested in cleaning up the air since you can buy your way out of it. It is about money pure and simple and someone yet again bribed the politicians into a money scheme on the taxpayers backs. This money is going to a few select few who own carbon exchanges and land. Nothing more/ nothing less. You want the federal tie in on this? It was when Obama allowed the EPA to regulate CO2. That gave the state and this private money men the power to get this off the ground in California.
My educated calculations have the Ca CnT auction revenues at around $117 billion, between 2013 and 2020, based on conservative allowance values. This could easily double if allowance value hits the ceiling price and goes in the reserves.

Goldman Sachs and companies like that will not receive the revenues as the revenues will flow into the State's General Fund and Air Pollution Control Account. This is not a private carbon exchange and only capped entities are allowed to participate in the market. Some monies will flow to offset developers and emission verifiers.

"Obama's" US/EPA endangerment finding on CO2 came after California's legislature passed and Governor Schwarzenegger signed AB 32, the California Global Warming Solutions Act, which authorized the State's Air Resource Board to adopt and implement GHG emission reduction measures, one of which is Cap-and-Trade. About 15% of the GHG emission reductions authorized by AB 32 will be from the Cap-and-Trade program. But let's be clear, there is NO federal link to this program, though it would benefit CA if there was.

The claim that you can buy your way out of this is absurd and fails to account for the restrictions offsets to 8% of you required reductions under the Cap. A Cap-and-Trade does allow offsets which are often where the innovation in emission reductions take place. Without this flexibility there is no opportunity for emerging technologies without mandating winners through direct regulations. Additionally, if you believe that GHG are a GLOBAL problem, being able to offset emissions in jurisdictions that do not have regulations to control emissions will help with the GLOBAL problem. That being said California's Cap-and-Trade restricts offsets to the continental USA. Essentially the allowed offsets will account for less than 2% of the entirety of AB 32's emission reductions. Hardly buying your way out.

The US/EPA endangerment finding allows local AQMD/APCD to adopt regulations to control CO2 but that is very different than this state run program that has state statutory authority.

I think you're reaching on this subject.

Last edited by norcalrider; 10-27-2011 at 11:26 AM.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       10-28-2011, 2:17 AM Reply   
If the federal did not rule on CO2 then I doubt the state would survive court challenges is my point. I know it is different than the feds.

Buying your way out is not absurd. If you don't meet the requirements you can always add more money to the pot. It has nothing to do with pollution and everything to do with taxation. They are not going to shut you down, they will just fine you more until it is too expensive to do business in the state. The tax in regards to pollution will not do anything for pollution.

Taking $117 billion from businesses in 7 years is going to be bad. That cost will directly go to customers or coupled with job loss. Sure they will allegedly have money for investment but if it is going to the state then the state is not good at that. The state is $15 billion a year in debt and even more so with future liability for pensions. The state has no plans of changing the way they do business so the money will be waisted.

Even with all the money they hope to collect, green energy is still kept alive by the government. They start running the power generators out of state and the whole scam goes down the drain.

Like I said, with the exception of energy going up, I will not be effected. I just know others will be and it should be stopped just like most of the green movement agenda in the state. They are getting their pockets lined with every law or regulation

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