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Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-19-2011, 8:59 AM Reply   
He's really close, but keeps casing the wake on the other side:



(apologies for the crappy cropped iphone video)
Old    Robert Schuyler (bobbysky)      Join Date: Aug 2010       09-19-2011, 10:59 AM Reply   
the wake looks a little wide. I would either bring him in a rope length or two, that should close the gap a bit. If that is as short as the rope goes you can get one of those adjustable rope devices that let you make it any length you want. Once he gets comfortable clearing the wake at a shorter length you can lengthen the rope up. But continually casing the wake will drop is confidence a ton and that will help nothing.

Once he dials in the heelside jump with a shorter rope, get him learning toeside and switch as soon as possible. Then he will eventually start overshooting the wake from all sides. Then you start to lengthen the rope.
Old    Small Light (stephan)      Join Date: Nov 2002       09-19-2011, 11:12 AM Reply   
He's got a pretty good approach & I don't think the wake is too wide. The only thing he is missing is "stand tall at the wake". His first attempt was probably best, but you can still see that he hits the wake with a nice progressive edge but is still squatted down.

The drill I have people do, is get outside the other wake (so you can cut out on your heels) and take a nice progressive edge on your heels to outside the wake, once you he gets out there with a good strong edge have him do an ollie while maintaining his edge (try and mimic a HS wake jump as much as possible). This basically simulates taking a good edge and standing tall at the wake.

I promise he will get it in no time.
Old    readyaimfire            09-19-2011, 12:08 PM Reply   
The kids got it. The problem is he's riding a mans rope length. Bring him in 5' to start. Once he builds his confidence up there, you can let him back out. He's doing everything pretty good, I wouldn't change his approach.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-19-2011, 1:56 PM Reply   
love the idea of a cut and ollie drill! Keep 'em coming guys. We only have a few more days this season and I'd really like to see him get this.
Old    Jamie (Wiatowski)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-19-2011, 2:17 PM Reply   
I agree he's missing the "standing tall motion". One thing that has helped me too is not doing multiple cuts out. Do one aggressive cut out, coast flat, look at the wake, then edge in. While coasting flat be leaning back on the line a bit with his knees already bent slightly. Tell Him to cut out only about 5-10' from the wake and try just jumping 1 wake until you can see that he is standing tall as he goes through the wake.

When he's got that down, have him edge out TS then edge in HS but bending his knees or letting them take the impact of the wake. This will help him get the feel of edging through the wake. Try that a couple of times and then have him do it with the standing tall motion.

I also would shorten the length of rope by like 5-10'.

These things really helped me out. Also I would sign up for Learntowake.com next season, as they have a lot of good pointers, or buy "The Book" instructional series. You can get it at Amazon for like $52.

Hope this helps Enjoy the rest of the season.
Old    Jeremy Byrom (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       09-20-2011, 12:36 AM Reply   
^^^
Jamie beat me to it. First and biggest thing to correct is EDGING OUT.

EDGE OUT CONSISTANTLY
edge out in one motion. no stops and starts. if you surf up the wave a little and then use the slope of the wave to give an added boost of momentum it will help too. make it consistent. visualize a pendulum swinging. the path of a wakeboarder will be very much the same if you could watch it from above. like this http://www.learnwake.com/videos/ts-j...erfect-set-up/

INCREASE WAKE JUMP OPPORTUNITIES
you may even try lengthening the rope even more (all the way out) temporarily. the idea of this is to eliminate possibilities of casing the wake and to give the rider ample time to jump from inside the wake out. combine this with the ideas of edging all the way outside the wake heelside ending with an ollie and the kid will be getting THREE wake jump practices with every swing of the rope. when the rider is confident and consistent then shorten the rope. as the rider gets comfortable with a shorter rope lengthen it out a bit again to provide larger arcs and more airtime.

...or as some have stated, you could go straight into shortening the rope.

REBOUNDING OLLIES
Another thing you might try is rebounding ollies. as soon as the board hits the water from the first ollie rebound into another ollie or two or three... like jumping on a trampoline. this helps feel-out the water and pop.

TOESIDE
Maybe he's already jumping a little toeside... video doesn't show. I have seen a lot of beginners get more aggressive pop toeside than heelside. here is what i have observed with many beginners (including looking back at myself)
Heelside - comfortable/controlled pop but not a whole lot of it.
Toeside -uncomfortable/unbalanced body position but lots of pop.
a rider can translate the things done right and what feels right from toeside to heelside and vise-verse.
Also another reason many beginners get better toeside pop is that they have a better edge going out because they have typically been working on heelside edges more aggressively.
Again, this is something that you can translate going the other way. work on aggressive toeside edges as far as he can into the flats (just enough to be a little "push" of ones abilities each time) to build a stonger toeside edge for edging out and eventually jumping toeside wake-to-wake. all of these foundations will help one another riding switch too.

VISUALS AND METAPHORS
remember the pendulum visual? this is also a good visual for the "Progressive edge" The pendulum swings out, stops (but maintains line tension) and then builds speed as it swings back and approaches the downward position. therefore you will want to cut into the wake only as fast as your willing to maintain or increase. slow down or back off at all during an approach and the whole path is disrupted and energy is lost. the board flattens out and becomes a low skipping-rock getting little pop. now take this skipping-rock visual. if you take that same skipping-rock and skip it on edge (not flat) the rock will skip ONCE but VERY HIGH. throw the rock flat and it skips low. Progressive edge helps the board to be setup like a skipping rock on edge to get one good POP into the air.



sorry that was a little lengthy, but definitely please
please at least watch this video. AWESOME.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckkf840HZE4

Last edited by wakerider111; 09-20-2011 at 12:41 AM.
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       09-20-2011, 7:08 AM Reply   
Shorten the rope 5 feet and give him the feel for the landing and do it both toe and heal side. For a little extra fun shorten it even more and goof around on the wake. Once he has the feel give him some more rope and he will be a little more aggressive clearing the wake knowing what to expect.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       09-20-2011, 10:07 AM Reply   
Tim is right.It looks like a lack of confidence.The shorter rope will take away the fear.Then when he has sucess and is consistent lengthen the rope 5' at a time.
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-20-2011, 10:21 AM Reply   
slowly build speed up to the wake, ( dont start your approach at full speed, progress your speed to the point where your full speed at the wake). stay on edge through the wake and keep the handle low. What speed are you going? looks a little slow, but that could just be my perception. Agreed, on the shorter rope suggestion.
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-20-2011, 10:25 AM Reply   
These suggestions were given to me from Mike and Nick Ennen, when I was riding Koppert Lake a few years back.
Old    Eric Anderson (e_rock32)      Join Date: Oct 2009       09-20-2011, 10:55 AM Reply   
Don't shorten the rope, it already looks like he has a tough time getting out far enough as it is. Shorter rope length means a smaller pendulum, which decreases the amount of freedom a rider has and requires more work. There are two things he should work on:
1. The TS edge: he has a good body position but lean harder against the rope with your upper body to get outside the wake farther
2. The pop: the knees are bent. Although the handle position looks great.

Take some small one wake jumps just to focus on pushing the wake with your legs. Also, this is a good video for TS edging http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqAheageD9c

If you do change the rope length, you should lengthen it 5 feet (not shorten) to give some room and freedom to work on TS leverage and allow more time to increase his edge as he gets closer to the wake. Also are you running extra weight in there? That wake looks pretty big for someone who is not comfortable clearing the wake.
Old    Eric Anderson (e_rock32)      Join Date: Oct 2009       09-20-2011, 11:06 AM Reply   
I have another idea for you, if you know how to clear the wake, go out there and play with the line length and speed to see what is easiest for yourself to clear before you have him testing these things out (and possibly taking a hard fall). Most of his form looks really good (progressive edge, handle position) but he needs more time to increase his edge.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-20-2011, 3:06 PM Reply   
Thanks for the advice guys. A bit of feedback or additional info:

we are riding at 20.6 and 65'
My son's cut out is about as far as he can get. I'm not sure it's his hardest possible cut in every attempt but it's close.
He took a spill early in the season on a short rope (like 50') and is now very gun shy of taking a hard fall. That said he doesn't realize that his skills have improved such that he's landing stuff now that he couldn't land then.
He's 88lbs soaking wet, so I'm not going to go any faster. He has a hard enough time setting an edge going this fast.

Personally, I KNOW that he could make it at 60', but he's got this psychological block to going shorter. Don't know why, but for some reason he'd rather huck a big gap than easily repeat on a small one. I'm hoping that the feedback from this thread helps him to see the error of his ways.
Old    Jamie (Wiatowski)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-20-2011, 3:35 PM Reply   
Hear you on the confidence issue. Now I know I'm going to take some flack for this, but here's my opinion.

1) Slow down to 17-18 mph, he's light and slowing down will help sink the board a little deeper, thus making it easier for him to edge. Not only that but his edge will be deeper thus stronger.
2) Before you tow him toss your handle in the water as your driving that speed and set the length at the nicest part of the wake it will probably be at 55' mark
3) I mentioned before straight legs and edging through the wake. Your not jumping but more just standing up, speed will get you across but he won't have control or height. He should have to squat down as far as he is at the moment, tell him bend a less a the knees and it will make getting the standing tall motion easier for him to get use to. also not to stop learn against the rope as he comes up to the wake. That why I suggested doing one big edge across the back of the boat and letting his knees take the impact of the wake. it will help him to remember edging through the wake.
4) Everyone eats water even the pros,it's part of the sport, this year alone I've bit through my lip twice and have gotten a black eye.... it happens.

sorry so long
let me know if that helps.
Old    Dave W (njskier)      Join Date: Jul 2005       09-20-2011, 5:42 PM Reply   
My opinion...he's spending too much time cutting out. Have him take a smooth outward cut without gaining alot of speed as to lose line tension, then change edges right away and take a nice progressive cut toward the wake. At that line length you could bump up his speed to 21.5 without him even knowing (he won't get nervous about the speed if he doesn't know about it right?)
He should clear it that way.

Or, he could take some nice jumps with the rope at 80' without fear of casing the other wake just to work on his form. Have him repeat long line jumps many times and then shorten the line.

Last edited by njskier; 09-20-2011 at 5:44 PM. Reason: mis spelling
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-20-2011, 5:57 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by njskier View Post
Or, he could take some nice jumps with the rope at 80' without fear of casing the other wake just to work on his form. Have him repeat long line jumps many times and then shorten the line.
This he's been doing all summer. It's time to nut up, and he knows it.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       09-20-2011, 6:49 PM Reply   
Everyone i,ve taught to jump the wake just needed confidence.You know best how to build his confidence.I can see from the video he has the skills,but lacks a little bit of confidence.I agree with the speed statement,at his weight speed won't help.
Old    readyaimfire            09-20-2011, 10:28 PM Reply   
I think it's funny how everyone Is so opposed to shortening the rope. There is no shame in it. U think the O.G. Pros were riding 90 foot ropes when they were inventing the sport? I bet the average rope length was 55-65 feet. Bottom line is he is too small and light to clear that gap. He is doing everything correct, shorten the rope and don't tell him. When he's gets consistent goin wake to wake heel and toe side, let him out 5.
Old    George Aslinger (mobv)      Join Date: Jun 2002       09-21-2011, 6:20 PM Reply   
I've spent several days in boats with several professional coaches at camps, they all shorten the rope. Dave Briscoe will have juniors jump at the rooster tail, move back 5 ft at a time after 5 successful attempts at the current length. It's much easier for a "coach" to make kids move in and do something they are afraid of.
Old     (Shorpy)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-21-2011, 7:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by readyaimfire View Post
I Bottom line is he is too small and light to clear that gap.
I disagree based upon my experience with the same sized kid and the same wake.

It's a technique and confidence thing.

The OP's kid looks very comfortable so all he needs to do is load the line a bit more and stand tall at the wake. IMO, the speed is a bit slow as my kid who is the same size rides at 22.5 with no ballast (same hull) or 23.5 with full ballast.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-22-2011, 5:33 AM Reply   
Interesting comment re speed. I'll try bumping it up if conditions allow. That will obviously make the gap narrower at the given length.
Old     (Shorpy)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-22-2011, 8:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
That will obviously make the gap narrower at the given length.
Good point.

Both ballast tanks empty, 22.5 (PP Stargazer- GPS), 70' line:


It really is a confidence thing, IMO. My kid was constantly asking about the line length when he was struggling to clear the wake consistently. He finally got over it and now doesn't want to ride without full ballast (wake size making up for his technique issues but he has more fun)
Old    readyaimfire            09-23-2011, 12:21 AM Reply   
Slower is more forgiving and less intimidating, going faster will make it more difficult for him to load the line. To do so he will probably end up cutting at the wake on almost a 90degree angle and get yanked out the front. The goal should be to clear the wake with a nice progressive 45 degree angled cut at the wake. I agree that increasing speed will shorten the gap, but u would get the same results just taking five feet out of the line. in the end it's your son, your boat, and your rules.... Just my 2cents. Good luck
Old    Jamie (Wiatowski)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-23-2011, 8:41 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorpy View Post
(wake size making up for his technique issues but he has more fun)

Do you really think it's wise to compensate bad technique with wake size? Sure he maybe able to go W2W but what if he's on someone else's boat who doesn't have a big wake.... don't you think that it might deflate him a bit? I would think it would be better to learn the proper way of doing something then to ingrain bad habits which in the long run are hard to break. No offence it's just a thought.
Old     (Shorpy)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-23-2011, 9:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiatowski View Post
Do you really think it's wise to compensate bad technique with wake size? Sure he maybe able to go W2W but what if he's on someone else's boat who doesn't have a big wake.... don't you think that it might deflate him a bit? I would think it would be better to learn the proper way of doing something then to ingrain bad habits which in the long run are hard to break. No offence it's just a thought.
Maybe I wasn't clear. He can clear our wake with or without ballast. He can also clear the wake on other boats, including our friend's I/O with a small washy wake.
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       09-23-2011, 9:32 AM Reply   
Did you start jumping 1 or 5 garbage cans with your bike. Everybody wants to analyze and show their knowledge of technique but the kid is fine; just make it easier. It is much easier to clear the wake at short line lengths. Every rider other than a beginner should already know and have experienced this otherwise we would all have learned clearing the wake on the doubleup. Come on, how can a longer line or larger ramp help and kid who needs a little confidence boost and practice hitting the down side.

He will start charging the wake once his head clear of intimidating falls. I bet he enters the water with a serious game face and full head instead of a smile. Once he makes it at shorter line lengths confidence, fun and a big smile will do more for the effort than drilling a kid on his technique. Don't kill the buzz, his technique is fine and it will instantly get better once he clears.
Old     (Shorpy)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-23-2011, 10:20 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by srock View Post
Come on, how can a longer line or larger ramp help and kid who needs a little confidence boost and practice hitting the down side.
Who suggested that?
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       09-23-2011, 11:35 AM Reply   
If your looking for a direct quote it does not exist but more than anything my comment is a metaphor for the suggestion that its time to man up or increase speed or load the line or be more aggressive. Without re-reading I recall where it is suggested to lengthen or not shorten the rope and of course your wake vs technique clarification.

Have you ever been in a boat where 3 people are giving advice. Usually one person knows what they are talking about, the other is an excited younger sibling and he third is a person who never boarded. Meanwhile the person in the water is overloaded with their own thoughts much less all the advice and just hears noise.

Understand my point, he's doing fine and does not need a bunch of technical advice; just a little confidence boost that can come from a short rope, non-intimidating wake and comfortable speed.
Old    Jamie (Wiatowski)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-23-2011, 12:26 PM Reply   
Agree with Tim.

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