Articles
   
       
       
Pics/Video
   
       
       
Shop
Search
 
 
 
 
 
Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
WAKE WORLD HOME
Email Password
Go Back   WakeWorld > Non-Wakeboarding Discussion

Share 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       09-07-2011, 5:19 PM Reply   
I am new to the gun scene, particularly the rifle scene.
I have a range nearby that I currently go to with my little 22 long rifle. Its good for the kids cause the rifle has little to no kick and its great for the 50yd range.

I also go to a range in Yuma ( when I work out there) that has a great outdoor target range up to 800+ yards. Not that I need something that shoots accurately up to 800+ yards but I am looking at something that will be accurate and fun to 400 yards and not too expensive to shoot.

I have been looking at the Remington 700 VTR and other 700 models and have found a few places with decent pricing. Outside of that gun ( which I hear is a good accurate rifle), i have only read about other guns and have not held or fired anything else.

My price range with gun and scope and any upgrades is $1500-$2000.

My questions to you rifle owners:

1. opinions on .223 ammo vs. 308 vs 30-06 . Which one give me the best cost to accuracy ratio.
2. Will the .223 shoot up to 300-400 yards? my local range only lets you shoot .223 or less ammo on the rifle range.
3. I am in california and other than not having your gun fully auto or a suppressor, what other laws are in place that I need to know of with a rifle like I am buying.
4. Any other suggestions for a rifle and scope that you would suggest.

Thanks in advance
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       09-07-2011, 5:28 PM Reply   
I forgot to say that this gun will be used exclusively for recreational target shooting . ( and maybe home defense. lol)
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-07-2011, 5:37 PM Reply   
First question-

How do you define accurate?

.223 vs. .308/06. .223 is a pretty efficient cartridge and inherently accurate enough for most shooters. I would shy away from a long action mostly for torsional rigidity reasons, it's unnecessarily fatiguing, and tends to induce poor trigger mechanics in new(er) shooters.
Yeah, a .223 will do 300-400 yards just fine.
With bolt action long guns there aren't many regulations you need to be concerned with.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-07-2011, 5:41 PM Reply   
Stay away from the VTR- The barrel profile is a gimmick and it so shaved that you've lost much of its rigidity and overall surface area for cooling purposes.
They are tacticool in appearance, so if you're a mall security guard you may want to take a second look at one.
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       09-07-2011, 5:44 PM Reply   
Barry - For me accuracy is being able to hit a 12" round target from 200+ yards. I have only shot at 50yd and 100 yrd targets with my current rifle and its no problem grouping the 50yrd within the size of a silver dollar, at 100 yards for me its more like 5"x5" target. I know that is way easy for most of you but for me thats all Im looking for.

I am figuring the .223 round is probably cheaper and that way I can shoot this rifle at my local range as well.

Thanks
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-07-2011, 5:58 PM Reply   
12"@2 is a 6MOA rifle. Almost anything you buy will be able to do that, including your .22 rimfire. The quest for accuracy is the natural progression as you shoot more, so keep in mind that what you're satisfied with today probably won't be too satisfying as you improve. It's a sickness, trust me.
With 1.5-2k you can put together a mighty fine shooting rifle that can/will accommodate you as you improve.
It won't take long for your to exhaust the capability of a 2-3 MOA rifle, let alone a 6.
I won't pretend to know what you need/want, but trust me when I say that what you want now will change as you improve as a shooter.
Old    SamIngram            09-07-2011, 6:27 PM Reply   
For a starter rifle I would suggest either the Remington 700 SPS Tactical AAC-SD or the Remginton 700 SS 308 24" 5R Milspec.

I would definitely go with the .308! You can get Lake City for cheap and the learn to reload. If you can't find any Lake City then you can get Royal Ordnance Radway Green for just a little more. I can easily hit the 1,000 yard gong with either ammo out of my 5R chopped to 18" so it is "good enough"

For your budget and goal I would suggest that you check out this site:

Budget Precision Build

IMO the 700 SPS Tactical AAC-SD is probably the best deal that you can get and will allow you upgrade everything you want; basically it is a very hard gun to outgrow. I have both of the above guns but had my 5R chopped down to 18". The 5R is my main hunting, competition, and target plinking gun. If you are in the Phoenix area you can look me up and I can try to help you get started. The best instructor here in the Phoenix area IMO is Matt Burkett and it is advisable to pay for a couple hours of instruction from if you have the money and time. I think it is better to start off doing everything correctly versus wrong and trying to fix it.


Last edited by SamIngram; 09-07-2011 at 6:33 PM.
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       09-07-2011, 6:30 PM Reply   
Sam- I was hoping you were going to respond. Thanks for the info and links. The only reason I really want the 223 is so I can shoot locally at my range with my kids.
Old    SamIngram            09-07-2011, 6:41 PM Reply   
I will warn you that if you get into long range shooting you will blow your budget!!! It is addicting!!
Old    SamIngram            09-07-2011, 6:53 PM Reply   
Barry,
How did I do? Good advice or not? I'm in with a bunch of guys that are so far above my skill level I just do what they say and then repeat it whenever I am asked...

I know a lot of the guys at the different ranges and in the desert are shooting Savages at the bottom end of the budget range. From what I understand you can set up a Savage pretty cheap and still hit the gong.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-07-2011, 9:54 PM Reply   
I think your advice is sound, Sam.

Quote:
I'm in with a bunch of guys that are so far above my skill level I just do what they say and then repeat it whenever I am asked...
That is awesome.. lol! I love it.


It's pretty difficult to beat a .308 as far as common factory cartridges go.. I would argue that .223/.308 are interchangeable in terms of versatility. I focused on the .223 since you said it was fitting for your local range, it's not taxing to shoot, generally doesn't induce a flinch and it's fairly inexpensive.

I think Sam's on the right track with an SPS, it's a pretty solid rifle right out of the box. The threaded version is not legal in California, though. I might look for an older PSS or VS as I'm a fan of HS Precision stocks.

Quote:
It's a sickness, trust me.
Quote:
I will warn you that if you get into long range shooting you will blow your budget!!! It is addicting!!
There's a reason we're repeating this. You're going to see for yourself soon enough.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-07-2011, 9:58 PM Reply   
You may want to consider snooping around Snipershide, Benchrestcentral, and other long range focused sites. There are always good deals to be found on 2nd hand long range precision rifles and most of the guys who spend the time to build them, take great care of them. I've picked up quite a few custom rifles this way.
Old    Richard Coop (mendo247)      Join Date: Mar 2005       09-07-2011, 10:18 PM Reply   
"For me accuracy is being able to hit a 12" round target from 200+ yards"

Just get an AR. Sounds like one will serve your purpose at the range and be cool to have for other obivious reasons.
Old    paul. (imx)      Join Date: Jul 2009       09-08-2011, 4:14 AM Reply   
Sounds like me about 30 years ago. Started off with a el cheapo .22 and spent the next 20 years and I don't know how much money on lots more. My two favourites were a 700BDL heavy barrel in 6mm Rem and a Ruger no.1 in 7mm Rem mag. I spent most of my time tinkering with the 6mm as it was my target rifle. One point here is that it takes a very long time to tune your rifle with ammunition and Sam is right in saying it is addictive. It's not so much the shooting but moreso the reloading, a bit of a 'catch 22' if you like. If you buy factory ammo it costs more so you probably won't shoot as much, if you reload, you are always tinkering with 'what if I seat the projectile in this far' or ' maybe a grain less of powder' and you end up spending more money anyway. LOL
Old    SamIngram            09-08-2011, 9:00 AM Reply   
I personally think an AR is boring, I have three though and just ordered a new Daniel Defense M4 V1, but I much prefer a bolt action anything.

I'm somewhat unusual in my crew, I don't care what ammo I am shooting with, just as long as I can shoot! I shoot mostly Lake City because it is cheap and I can reload it (Boxer Primered). If I can't get Lake City I buy the RO RG, but it is almost always Berdan primed which adds another two full steps to reloading.

For me nothing is more fun than coming to range and checking out the conditions and trying to figure out in my head what "dope" I have to use to get a first shot hit. Almost all of the guys I shoot with can drive to the range, setup and calculate their dope and get a hit their first shot at around 800, and often at 1,000. I find that amazing.

Figuring the "dope" is the addicting part for me, but my 5R has had almost everything possible that can be done to it, done. It only has a 18" barrel on it, with the thought that the shorter barrel is more rigid, and thus more accurate. I lose on average 130 fps due to the short barrel, but my chamber is super tight which makes up for some of the loss that I would normally see with such a short barrel. I mostly shoot at a private range in desert. Lately we have been having competitions where a spotter calls out a target and the shooter has to find it. Between the spotter and the shooter you figure out your dope and shoot. We do this for five targets and then switch positions. I'm the only civi in the bunch.

My final bit of advice on this thread is to spend the majority of your budget on rings and the scope! You can upgrade almost every part of your rifle, but can't upgraded your scope so easily, the entire thing will get replaced. I use a hand-me-down Premier Reticle Heritage 5-25x56 that has been modified with the reticle in the second plane. My scope probably cost $4,500 if you ordered it new and then had it modified, while I have about $1,900 in the gun.
Old    Matt (pierce_bronkite)      Join Date: Jul 2003       09-08-2011, 10:58 AM Reply   
Have you considered a .222 or 22-250?
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       09-08-2011, 11:51 AM Reply   
I disagree on the .308 thing a bit. It's a pricey round compared to a .223/5.56 unless you are re-loading. The effective range on a .223/5.56 is easily over 400 meters. With a .223 you'll be shooting silver dollar groups almost instantly with a decent scope. Sure a .308 will get you out to a thousand meters (or more) accurately, but how many places can you even do that?

Decide what you want to do. Your budget is more than adequate. Bolt action guns are great. IMO you need to own a bolt and a semi-auto. Out here in California I wouldn't be surprised if semi-auto guns become illegal eventually. I'm stocking up on them right now.

Here's my take..... I've got $1k into a AR-15. It's got iron sights (A3 flat top) which I find challenging. At 200 meters it's more a question of eye sight than anything else. Getting on a 10" plate is rewarding at that range. Remove the carry handle and put a scope on it and you're accurate to 400+. 100 is a joke. Holes inside holes. .223/5.56 allows very fast re-turn to target. Very little re-coil. You can shoot it all day.

When I get bored with the AR I can take out my AK. More kick, a bit less accurate. Really fun with iron sights. Big bang, fairly hard hitting. Fun for shooting stuff, IMO a better home defense weapon (if you so choose to use it for one).

FWIW a .22 is always the go-to at the range. So cheap to shoot and will easily go out to 200 yards. Yeah, you'll have some bullet drop, but that makes it more fun. My next pick-up is going to be a Ruger 10/22 for plinking. Even the .223/5.56 gun is getting expensive.

Buying a gun is slippery slope. One leads to 3 which leads to 10. Hahahaha. AR's are common now. Maybe a bit boring, but I like the idea of spec'ing exactly what I want. I already have another lower coming. This time I'm going all out. Heavy barrel, long range. I'd like to get it out over 500 accurately. Shouldn't be too hard. It'll probably still come in under $2k.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-08-2011, 12:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
I'm somewhat unusual in my crew, I don't care what ammo I am shooting with, just as long as I can shoot!
Sam, are you new to long range precision shooting?
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       09-08-2011, 1:14 PM Reply   
In terms of legality.... Go to calguns.net for info regarding anything that would be considered a "assault rifle". Anything centerfire, semi-auto with a pistol grip will require certain things (or omitting certain things) to make it legal. It's not hard to work inside the law and it's not something you want to mess with. An illegal rifle is a quick trip to a felony. Probably the dumbest way to get one, IMO.

I'm not sure where you end up with centerfire, thumbhole stock rifles. I would think they'd be legal as long as they are bolt action, but I'm not positive.
Old    SamIngram            09-08-2011, 1:31 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry View Post
Sam, are you new to long range precision shooting?
LOL... sort of, but it depends on who you ask. I have been hitting the 1,000 gong for about two years now. Everyone else but one other guy has been shooting since the late 60's or early 70's (mostly in the jungle). The other guy has spent time in almost every foreign desert you can think of, the only reason he is home is because he has a bullet lodged in his pelvis, and is thinking about going back as a contractor. They all have competed at Ft. Benning at the international shoot. I consider myself lucky to shoot with them. I think the only reason they let me come is the fact they can send me out reset the targets...

I go to both Gunsite and Front Sight at least once a year and have completed their long range courses at least twice.

The guys I shoot with are super, super picky about their ammo and their gear. They only use their own ammo (they even make their own bullets), and when they do use off the shelf they use Federal Gold Match in 168 grains. When they run out of their own ammo, they stop shooting! I have been buying Lake City by the pallet and buy either 173 or 178 grain because my gun has a funny twist rate compared to everyone else's (RH 1:11.2"). It likes heavy bullets the best, namely HSM 190gr HPBT Match, but I can't really afford to shoot it that often. I use them if I am hunting mostly, those 190's pretty much knock anything down...

As far as the .22-250 I think that is a bad choice, they are expensive, burn to much powder, and barrel life is much shorter... if wildcard caliber was an option I might to 6.5 Creedmor or something like that.

I never really got into the .223 stuff because I can't hunt deer or elk with them...

He said he was in Yuma. Yuma has miles and miles of desert to shoot in and he also a 800 yard range to shoot on. Have you ever been to Yuma or the Arizona desert? Find a nice hill and shoot your heart out, heck no one will probably even hear you..

Last edited by SamIngram; 09-08-2011 at 1:41 PM.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-08-2011, 1:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
The guys I shoot with are super, super picky about their ammo. They only use their own ammo (they even make their own bullets), and when they do use off the shelf they use Federal Gold Match in 168 grains. When they run out of their own ammo, they stop shooting!
I didn't mean it as a dig at all. It's out of the ordinary for a serious long range shooter to rely on factory ammunition so your comment struck me as bizarre. Changing ammunition plays havoc on harmonics. Has anyone taken the time to explain harmonics and its affects on accuracy to you? You seem to be educated on topics that interest you, so if you already know, or I'm out of line let me know.
Old    SamIngram            09-08-2011, 2:06 PM Reply   
Yes. If possible I just use Lake City Match or my own reloads, but compared to the guys I'm shooting with my preference is pretty mild compared to them. They are freaking crazy! If they are in a competition or preparing for a competition they will make sure they practice with powder from the same batch as what they will shoot the competition with. They might go through 1,000 pieces of brass before they find 20 pieces that they really like. I can't even tell the difference, while they are looking at everything from the uniformity of thickness of the brass to conformity of the primer pocket and charging hole. They all carry a little case of ammo with them at all times with their "special loads", just in case. They have little boxes, like what my mom keeps her recipe's in, full of data cards for every freaking range in the country and trade them like they were baseball cards. One guy won't even let me carry his gun, let along shoot it. As a result, anything that I do seems pointless, at least in comparison to them.

You can't offend me or get "out of line", specially when it comes to guns. I like to talk about them and love to learn and shoot better. Anything I can learn I will gladly do.
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       09-08-2011, 2:26 PM Reply   
Thanks guys. This is all extremely helpful.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-08-2011, 2:58 PM Reply   
Sam, sounds like you're with the right guys.
What they're doing is necessary for repeatability at long ranges. Soon you'll be filling your cases with water and measuring volume in the quest for consistency.

It's a sickness.
Have you tried egg shoots? If not, ask them about it. Chicken eggs at 800 yards!
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-08-2011, 3:13 PM Reply   
For clarity sake- the egg shoots start at 500 and increase in range as shooters progress.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       09-08-2011, 4:49 PM Reply   
LOL! I hope I never get the addiction that bad. Sounds all consuming.

That said. I've added 3 guns this year and have been shooting fairly regularly. I'm just getting past the "let's go out and shoot stuff up" phase and have started into the "let's try to get a tight group phase" I love shooting at long range. Unfortunately the longest I can really go out here is 500 yards. Even our local 200 yard range is only open Friday mornings. Fortunately we have a range in Tahoe that goes out further and is all but deserted on most days.

I'm thinking a nice bolt .308 would make a nice addition to the safe. That Remington 700 would be a economical way to start shooting longer distance. Bolt keeps it cheap. Definitely slows the trigger finger down.

Guns are a sickness. I don't think a lot of people understand. I love the mechanics of the whole thing. I think it's really interesting, and for some reason shooting is super relaxing for me. But having one is never enough. Once you have one you'll definitely find another that you want.

I still stick by my assertion that a .223/5.56 is the way to go. About 1/2 the price to shoot and very re-coil friendly. Anyone could shoot one and the ammo is readily available. You can get 500 count Lake City re-loads for $150. Not a bad deal for decent ammo. Once you start competing I'm sure you'll spend considerably more.

Once again, you guys are a wealth of knowledge. I love WW. I'll have to get back to my AK thread and post a few pics. I got some new bits and pieces for it that I have to bolt on first.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-08-2011, 5:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
I go to both Gunsite and Front Sight at least once a year and have completed their long range courses at least twice.
I am not a Piazza fan, though I have trained there.

Evan, embrace the addiction.
Old    SamIngram            09-08-2011, 5:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry View Post
I am not a Piazza fan, though I have trained there.

Evan, embrace the addiction.
I have been there probably 100 times and have never seen Piazza, nor have I sat through a real estate sales seminar. I have however met tons of great instructors and generally had a great time there. It was actually there where I finally got rid of my handgun double flinch... took forever, but they were able to finally fix me. No one else could...

Last edited by SamIngram; 09-08-2011 at 5:39 PM.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-08-2011, 5:46 PM Reply   
Do you remember Rudy Waldinger, or Patrick Garrity?

I'm going to keep my mouth shut about Piazza, but the real estate/FS sales are the least of my worries.
Old    SamIngram            09-08-2011, 6:14 PM Reply   
I'm not sure, but I think Rudy (short reddish brown hair) taught the Revolver class I took a couple times. He was very, very fast, almost as fast as John Ross with a .44.

I have shot with Garrity several times. I actually broke an S&B scope of his. He left it on a bench after he had taken it off and I snagged it with my backpack and knocked it off. I offered to pay for it, but he said that he didn't like it anyhow and wouldn't accept my money. I believe he was also at Gunsite when they introduced their scout rifle.

I know all about the lawsuits and racketeering, etc... but I don't worry about that stuff, I just shoot!
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-08-2011, 8:31 PM Reply   
Ouch on the S&B!
You know both Patrick and Rudy do private instruction. If you'd ever like to come out his way I can probably arrange something. Rudy is a friend and he lives a few miles from me, so I see him regularly. It's a bit more complicated with Patrick as he doesn't live nearby- he's willing to travel,though.

You have the instruction, the knowledge base and support of friends- why aren't you shooting a 6.5? That .30's holding you back. :P
Old    SamIngram            09-08-2011, 10:47 PM Reply   
I'm trying to build the most accurate, toughest, shortest, lightest .308 I can for when the SHTF, otherwise I do have and shoot many other calibers, but I shoot more .308 than anything because this is the only rifle that I hunt with and is the cheapest to shoot and the setup was relatively cheap. I'm not afraid to run around the mountains with it the way I am with my Van Dyke Creedmor, the Creedmor is more a trailer queen. My best with my 5R is a 1,128 first shot hit on 12" plate (Yes, I got VERY lucky)! In a couple of months I'm going sheep hunting on the Grand Canyon from a raft!

I have rifles in 6.5 Grendel and Creedmor, 6.8 SPC, even .50 BMG, but my baby is the "Big Fatty". We took recipe for it directly from John Ross's Unintended Consequences, page 797 if you have the book or Chapeter July 30 if you have use the PDF. It is a 6mm-.348 and screams at 3,750 on average. I just installed my third barrel last Sunday. There are plenty of better wildcat rounds, but the big fatty is fun to shoot.

My buddy, the guy who built my wakeboard racks and everything else for my boat, makes reamers. He is a tool and die maker and machinist. He had a shop in Tempe that was next door to Matt Burkett's shop (he still has the shop, but he moved to Chandler). We first started borrowing targets from him and it snowballed from there.. it is a sickness..



He doesn't really do anything in the video, but for some reason it is my favorite. This one of him on the zipline shooting is pretty good...

We are currently trying to figure out the best way to form brass for the Tom Sarver 300 Hulk cartridge, we already have the reamer done and the action is on the bench waiting for the barrel.

It is a sickness, at least for me. I actually lease machine shop space from my friends because I ran out of storage at home.
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       09-09-2011, 7:12 AM Reply   
wow, this thread get my gun pants all riled up. I love the science behind long range accuracy, and have been considering the very same idea and price range. However, in reality, it will be a rare opportunity for me to spend any time at a range greater than 300yds or a property with a longer shot. So, I keep putting off buying a precision rifle, since I have to have some reasonable justification to the Mrs.

As far as caliber, if all you are shooting is paper, then I would just get whatever is cheapest. If you have thoughts of using it for the occasional hunt, it doesnt get more versatile than .308. I do have a .308 semi and it can be set up for shooting long range, but it is definitely no bolt gun. Right now its set up for shooting hogs at <200yds. It is fun to shoot!

Im trying to come up with a solid reason to give the wife for the procurement of a Keltec KSG shotgun when it comes out in the near future. Since I already burned the home defense card, and it has no other "real world" use, I'm not sure what to say. Not exactly going duck hunting with it, lol.
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       09-11-2011, 8:07 PM Reply   
The remington 700 sps tactical .223 with the 20" heavy barrel and Hogue over mold stock is hard to beat for the money
(I have the .308 with a Harris bipod and Redfield 3x9)
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       09-11-2011, 8:13 PM Reply   
looks like the 700 above but all black
Attached Images
 
Old    SamIngram            09-13-2011, 12:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry View Post
Ouch on the S&B!
You know both Patrick and Rudy do private instruction. If you'd ever like to come out his way I can probably arrange something. Rudy is a friend and he lives a few miles from me, so I see him regularly. It's a bit more complicated with Patrick as he doesn't live nearby- he's willing to travel,though.

You have the instruction, the knowledge base and support of friends- why aren't you shooting a 6.5? That .30's holding you back. :P
What are you shooting Barry? What is your favorite and why?
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-13-2011, 3:22 PM Reply   
Sam,
It really depends on what I'm doing. Like you, I have a fairly eclectic collection of firearms.
If I'm out jerk-holing around at a range I'll shoot a .223 for practicing/maintaining mechanics and because It's cheap, easy to load and maintains a light recoil so that I don't fatigue.

If I'm varminting I'll shoot a Tac .20 because it effectively gets out to 800 yards, does almost 4300fps with .22mag like recoil. It drops and drifts less than a 22-250 throughout its trajectory while carrying more energy. It does all of that with 2/3 less powder than a 22-250. Brass formation is derived from the .223 parent case and it's quite easy, cheap and abundant. I can watch the action through the glass! That's a huge benefit to me as I don't require a spotter.

If I'm LRP I'll shoot a 6.5 usually in a .260. Less drop and drift than a .308 while maintaining energy past effective .308 ranges. Recoil is considerably less than a .308 while using 1/3 less powder. Brass formation is quite easy, although it generally requires more steps going down from a .308 than up from a .243. I prefer going down- the neck thickens as you reduce its size which allows sufficient room for neck turning so I can control concentricity. What else? Ballistic coefficient....inherently deadly accurate. Ballistic coefficient and ballistic coefficient.

Do you see a pattern here?
Abundant parent cartridges-
Inherently accurate-
Light recoil-
inherently efficient-
Laser like trajectory-
High ballistic coefficient-

Last edited by barry; 09-13-2011 at 3:29 PM.
Old    SamIngram            09-13-2011, 3:41 PM Reply   
Why did you go the Tac .20 route over the 20 Practical? I had one from GG&G out of Tucson, but sold it. I am waiting on a Daniel Defense to build another one. Have you seen a 6mm-.348 or a 300 Hulk yet?
Old    SamIngram            09-13-2011, 4:59 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
Why did you go the Tac .20 route over the 20 Practical? I had one from GG&G out of Tucson, but sold it. I am waiting on a Daniel Defense to build another one. Have you seen a 6mm-.348 or a 300 Hulk yet?
For clarification, GG&G didn't make the gun, only sold it... I have no idea who is making 20 Practical or 20 Tactical uppers. I am sure someone is making them. I was just going to go back to GG&G, I just get what I am told to get.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-13-2011, 5:03 PM Reply   
Well, for a couple of reasons; most notably because the .20 Prac wasn't even thought of yet. The Tac .20 is Todd Kindler's baby and has been around for almost 25 years now. The .20 Prac is fairly new by comparison. If I were to choose today? Still a TAC .20.. A 30 degree shoulder creates a longer neck than a necked down .223 allowing me more surface grip for shorter/smaller projectiles which allows me ample room for seating adjustment.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-13-2011, 5:06 PM Reply   
We're on two different wavelengths, sir.
I would never chamber a LRP cartridge in an AR-15 platform. All my LRP rifles are single shot bolt guns and I am offended that you would think otherwise.
Old    SamIngram            09-13-2011, 5:57 PM Reply   
What about the 6mm-.348? Have you seen one? I have never even heard of another one, let alone seen one. I think a market for them exists, I have had several offers to buy mine!
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-13-2011, 7:42 PM Reply   
I've heard people talk about a necked .348, but I'm not certain their intention. I would love to see some ballistic data on it. If you don't have any available I can put something together if you provide me with the following information:

Bullet weight-
Ballistic Co-
Sectional density-
Velocity-
If you can't get the BC and SD just provide me with the bullet brand, weight and style and I'll figure out the rest.

You may be interested in this- I recently contracted with a firearms manufacturer to design a 450 Bushmaster into a 6.5 on an AR-10 platform. Should be an enjoyable project, though I'm not too excited about working on an AR platform. I have all the components, the drawings and we just got the custom dies back from Hornady..We should get started here in the next few weeks.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-13-2011, 7:51 PM Reply   
Quote:
We are currently trying to figure out the best way to form brass for the Tom Sarver 300 Hulk cartridge
What do you mean "trying to figure out the best way to..."?
Old    SamIngram            09-14-2011, 8:45 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry View Post
What do you mean "trying to figure out the best way to..."?
Forming the cases for 300 Hulk is a major pain in the butt! You have to start with .338 Lapua, shorten it, and then neck it down. We have tried about 6 different ways so far and no matter what we do we only end up with about 40% of what we started with. Even when using new Hornady brass we still get a ton of thin and cracked cases. Cheap Norma brass actually sometimes gets better results. Supposedly Sarver is in the process of getting the caliber to the commercial market so we can just buy brass. Lantz is already selling reamers.

I will get you everything I can on the 6mm-.348. We are using. I know we are using the 115 grain Berger, the long skinny ones, and a rimmed out case of "Cream Puff". I'm not sure what cream puff is, it comes in a 12 pound can with a pull tab.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       09-14-2011, 11:15 AM Reply   
And this thread has delved into the ultra-technical..... hahahaha

You guys are playing a whole different game when you go shooting.... Me, I'm glad to poke holes in paper with anything I can get my hands on.

Cool stuff. Carry on.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-14-2011, 11:56 AM Reply   
Sam,
Are you annealing the brass prior to formation? If you're making that drastic of a change you need to anneal, otherwise you end up with 'work hardened' brass which will result in exactly what you're describing. Annealing will soften the brass and make it buttery pliable. You'll want to anneal only the neck and shoulder and refrain from approaching the case head as catastrophic failure is highly lightly by softening the case head. Annealing also make your brass last forever! I know some BR guys that get 30-40 firing out of their cases by annealing.

There are a couple ways to anneal:
Melt some lead, hold the case with your bare hands by the rim and dip the neck to the shoulder, when it gets hot throw it into water. That method actually works surprisingly well and by the time the webbing/head gets warm the neck is perfectly annealed. It's also a great lesson on the speed at which brass transfers heat.

I use a propane torch and a rotating Teflon pan half full of water on lazy Suzanne..You want it about 660 degrees which is a fraction of a second before red hot. If it goes red hot it's too late, the brass is ruined. At about 600 degrees the brass will slightly change color that's the time to stop. Then simply knock it over into the water to quench it. It starts going red at about 750. The time difference between 660 and 750 is about 1/3 of a second..
If you have access to Temilsticks you can make a line with it on the brass and the Tempilstick will melt when it hits the desired temp.(they come in varying melting temps)
I have a few Tempilsticks I purchased when I first started annealing brass thinking I would go through them.. I never even used half of one. you get the hang of it pretty quickly. If You want one I'll be happy to drop one in the mail to get ya started.

If you anneal you will laugh at how buttery pliable the brass becomes.


Guido, it only because as technical as you require more and more accuracy.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-14-2011, 12:02 PM Reply   
Sam,
give me the velocity of the 6-338.
Old    SamIngram            09-14-2011, 1:46 PM Reply   
I assume you mean 6mm-.348, which averages 3,750 fps @ 1,086' above sea level.

I am not an expert what-so-ever when it comes to forming the brass, but the easiest way has been to trim the cases, get it necked down to fit in the chamber with forming die, and then fire form it. We also use a torch, a mandrel, and hydraulic press, but this only works on new brass for some reason. I am probably missing something, but I haven't reformed any brass on my own, I'm strictly the brawn in the operation. I am proficient in reloading my own stuff, although I do keep the Dillon tech line busy...
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-14-2011, 2:17 PM Reply   
Sam,
I'm tired of typing.

Give me a way to contact you.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-14-2011, 2:48 PM Reply   
Sam, I didn't compensate for elevation because I wanted to compare it to a .260. Very, very close...The 6-348 drops a hair less and the .260 drifts a hair less under the same conditions.
Also, it says G1 ballistic Co., but I actually used the G7 method off Berger's site as it's far more accurate at 1000 yards.

Looks really good! Flat!
Attached Images
 
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       09-15-2011, 11:37 AM Reply   
Am I reading that right? 317 inch drop at 1000yd.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-15-2011, 12:09 PM Reply   
That is correct, Guido.
The drift is calculated with a 10mph full value wind at the chronograph.
Old    SamIngram            09-15-2011, 12:36 PM Reply   
Nice, what calculator are you using? I just wish that all the bullets would stay together, about 10% fly apart about 50 yards out and turn into a nice grey streak of dust. We molycoat them like the book says, but it doesn't help that much.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       09-15-2011, 1:32 PM Reply   
I had no idea you were working with that kind of drop at 1000 yards.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-15-2011, 1:44 PM Reply   
Sam, JMB.

That's actually quite flat shooting believe it or not.
Here's a .308 for comparison:
Attached Images
 
Old    SamIngram            09-15-2011, 2:03 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by guido View Post
I had no idea you were working with that kind of drop at 1000 yards.
What most people don't think about is the fact that you would only tilt the gun about 18 degrees.

Tan Theta = 317/1,000, Theta = 17.6 degrees
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-15-2011, 2:26 PM Reply   
Wait, Sam are you using Kentucky style windage/elevation? You're not using mil-dots,ranging and dialing in?

Last edited by barry; 09-15-2011 at 2:30 PM.
Old    SamIngram            09-15-2011, 2:29 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry View Post
Wait, Sam.are you using Kentucky style windage/elevation? You're not using mil-dots and dialing in?
Of course I am... I was trying to relate it to the common person, but I actually did it wrong, I'm not exactly sure what the equation for the angle would be, but the answer would not be 17.6 degrees. I think it would have to be more, I have never thought about it this way..
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-15-2011, 2:35 PM Reply   
Whew! I was thinking how awesome you guys were to be able to estimate at 1k.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-15-2011, 4:33 PM Reply   
Sam, check your PM's
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       09-15-2011, 8:07 PM Reply   
Ok, so total newb question.... So where is the compensation? I've never shot at a range where I needed much compensation. At the 250 mark that I'm usually shooting there is very little drop for a .223 or even a 7.62X39 for that matter.

I know scopes are adjustable for paralax. Is the bullet drop compensation built in also ( I know some scopes are dialed for certain calibers)? 25' of drop is an awful lot. Now I'm interested for sure. I need to get some where that I can shoot further to understand what kind of drop is a reality.

Marksmanship is cool, but it's a whole different game when you go over 1k. The movement that you're dealing with makes it very interesting.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       09-15-2011, 8:21 PM Reply   
Wow, finally a use for trig. Too bad it was so long ago. hahahaha. Sam, I think it's more like double that. 35 degrees or so from rough head calculations. The average drop is about 10" per 100', right.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-15-2011, 9:55 PM Reply   
The compensation is in your scope.Once you range your target you know based on a ballistics chart how many MOA to adjust. You hear the word 'clicks' thrown around in the movies, what they're talking about is the scope adjustment. If your scope is 1/4 MOA that means each 'click' changes the projectile point of impact by about 1/4 of an inch @100. Your point of aim remains the same, so you don't tilt the rifle- you simply adjust the reticle to compensate for the drop.
Is that what you're asking?

Do you need details on how to accomplish that? It would be a long post, but I don't mind helping you out.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       09-16-2011, 12:01 PM Reply   
I understand how the function of "clicks" work on the scope (the 1/4" MOA is how my scope is set-up). I guess the question I'm asking is: is the scope dialed for the ballistics of a particular caliber, or is the adjustment purely made by ranging and adjusting the scope accordingly. At a 1000 yards that would be a lot of "clicks". Or.... are there scopes that compensate for drop and some that don't. Sorry if these are really basic questions. I think I have a handle on some of it, but would like to more fully understand.

In other words.... The knob on the side of my scope that has ranges from 5 to 500 yards, is that adjusting for bullet drop? My understanding is that it is. I know that my scope is specifically designed for a .223 rifle, but I've never had it out to a range where I'm getting enough bullet drop to see that the zero is changing.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-16-2011, 3:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
is the scope dialed for the ballistics of a particular caliber, or is the adjustment purely made by ranging and adjusting the scope accordingly. At a 1000 yards that would be a lot of "clicks"
Adjustment is made by ranging and adjusting the scope accordingly. How many clicks depends on how you have your scope set-up. If you're zero@100 yards then most scopes don't have the range to accommodate 1k shots with most calibers. the measurement of each click also plays a large role. For instance, if you have two scopes that, when centered, have 20 clicks up and 20 clicks down- that means a 1/2 inch MOA scope has 10MOA up/down adjustment. If it's a 1/4 MOA then it has 5MOA adjustment. If you look at that ballistics chart (.308) you'll see that 5MOA of adjustment zero'd at 100 would put you at just under 300 yards, 10 would put you just over 400yards.
What most people do is 'shim' the scope base so that almost all adjustment is in elevation and zero for 300 or so yards. Using the same 1/2 inch MOA scope, if we shimmed it so that we had 1 MOA down and 19MOA up, based on the ballistic chart that now gets up out to a bit over 600 yards. The truth is that most scopes have more adjustment and I'm only using the above as an example to keep it simple so that I don't get confused while I'm typing it out.

Quote:
are there scopes that compensate for drop and some that don't
Yes, they do make caliber specific scopes and they do work okay on larger targets. The problem with them is that within that caliber you have an almost infinite number of combinations of powder,primer,bullet weight, etc. Any change affects the ballistic trajectory and each change in trajectory affects the point of impact. They try to standardize and use averages, but for any precision work they are useless.


Quote:
The knob on the side of my scope that has ranges from 5 to 500 yards, is that adjusting for bullet drop?
I'm going to need a bit more help from you on this, what type of scope do you have?
Old    SamIngram            09-16-2011, 4:15 PM Reply   
Just get a scope with these two words on it... Premier Reticles.

Reply
Share 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 8:35 PM.

Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
Wake World Home

 

© 2012 eWake, Inc.    
Advertise    |    Contact    |    Terms of Use    |    Privacy Policy    |    Report Abuse    |    Conduct    |    About Us