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Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-12-2011, 9:38 PM Reply   
I have ridden behind both wakes and love them both. We mainly wakeboard but occasionally surf. Which boat will hold it's value more? The Axis is loaded with everything possible basically the vandal. . The MB has everything including tower speakers and amps as does the Axis. The Axis has a tricked out trailer. The Axis is about $6000 more. I am so confused. Any opinions on which one and why would really be helpful. They are both beautiful. Help! I know MB has changes on the 2012 but to me are not a big deal.

Last edited by wakintime; 08-12-2011 at 9:40 PM. Reason: Spelling
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-12-2011, 11:38 PM Reply   
Every boat will be updated over time so don't let that influence you. My guess is that both will hold their value about the same.

So, it really is up to you and your taste. Got a picture of each boat?
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-13-2011, 12:35 AM Reply   
I"ll try to get some. They are both black and blue. I don't want bashing just opinions. I just can't make my mind.
Old     (BorderBoarder)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-13-2011, 8:40 AM Reply   
I have been looking for a good unbiased comparison on the MB and Axis. Hopefully this will draw some good discussion for two quality affordable boats.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-13-2011, 9:17 AM Reply   
It was only a matter of time before this thread popped up... both MB and Axis have been getting a lot of ink on the forum lately. And with the price points in the same ballpark it's natural for folks to wonder.

All I will say is this (broken record): Do a thorough demo of each boat. These two boats couldn't be more different in terms of materials used, engines, layout, hull shape, ballast configurations, towers, racks, gel coat, style, etc. The only similarity I can think of is they are both picklefork and they both produce an awesome wake.

If you spend some quality time in each of them, you will know which is right for YOU.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-13-2011, 9:56 PM Reply   
+1 above...

go demo both, bring a riding buddy or two with you, have everyone ride and drive just as you would normally use the boat. It helps to have a few non-biased pairs of eyes with you that know you better than your salesman.

As an owner of one of these manufacturers and a rider behind both I can say that the wakes are completely different. they are both incredible wakes, clean at any speed and any weight. Ive ridden both with stock weight, and both with 4000 lbs. The axis wake is wider and rampier, with the wedge it has a little lip at the top, easy to dial in, clean at slow speeds and is not weight sensitive. The mb has a steeper wake like an old SAN but not as abrupt, it has a nice smooth transition to it, but is a lot wider than the san.

You will see that besides wake, the interiors are layed out completely different; materials are different, one is more functional, one is higher quality, ballast "build-a-buility" is unlimited in one, and limited in the other..

IMO, if I were buying a new Axis and was having it built for me, I would eliminate most of the options such as... tricked out trailer, vandall edition, under storage LED's, heater, shower, sound packages... and just get the wedge, chilax seats, plug n play, and upgraded prop.

good luck and have fun choosing. both boats are rad
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-14-2011, 12:44 AM Reply   
> The mb has a steeper wake like an old SAN but not as abrupt, it has a nice smooth transition to it, but is a lot wider than the san.

That was my impression too. Its also music to MY ears.
Old    Mike G (MikeyG)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-14-2011, 6:51 AM Reply   
I have been looking at getting a new boat now for a while. The new MB's have really caught my eye as have Axis. If the MB was slightly more expensive then I would still go with the MB. They are both nice boats but the MB's just seem to be built better. PLUS the ballast system in the MB is was more convenient!! Seeing that you said the MB was cheaper then it would be a no brainer for me. MB all day. If the Axis was a smoking deal then I would go for the Axis.
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-14-2011, 7:54 AM Reply   
Actually I like the axis wake a little better in that I can keep building it with the plug and play. MB has nicer interior. Still undecided.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-14-2011, 12:28 PM Reply   
^^^ not sure I understand... you can build the MB wake as well; all the way from 0 lbs. of water in the tanks to 1,800 lbs. in the tank (or 2,300 lbs. in the 23 footers). For my kids, we ride empty and the wake is great... bigger than a lot of boats fully loaded. I have started rided about 1/2 full. For my buddies who are better riders we ride full and the wake is downright scary. I can switch between these setups in seconds!

I guess my point is... yes, Axis has a buildable wake that gives you options, no denying that. But the MB wake is buildable too. Gravity fed ballast will change your life. It allows you to build and fine tune the wake in seconds while preserving your storage space.

I guess if 1,800 lbs. isn't enough, you could call Wake Makers and have them build you some custom sacs for the MB... even have them wired to switches for convenience. I have just never known an MB owner to do that. Even the most experienced riders are more than satisfied with the huge tanks beneath the floor.
Go demo them both, take lots of pics, then come back and tell us what you think. You could become the expert on how these two boats compare!
Old    Andrew (ajf4242)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-14-2011, 12:53 PM Reply   
After being on both boats I don't see a problem with either of them. I own an A22 and I love the wake and wouldn't change it for nothing. I've been behind recently 2 MB's a 21 tomcat and a 23 b52. The 21s wake isn't as steep as the 23 but it's pretty good. The 23 could be challenging if you're not that good at boarding with full ballast and I thought the wake was amazing though and really impressed. I like the MB's ballast compared to the Axis filling in like 2 minutes and draining in around a minute was nice. Both boats have their pros and cons like any boat and after being in the MB I was really impressed I didn't think I would like it but I really did. I think their price is great for what you get out of the boat and the storage without all the sacs would be nice too. Would I sell my Axis right now after being in one though no. I still like my boat just as much as I did when I bought it, but I think MB is great and a lot of people do need to check them out if they haven't.
Old    Lionel (lionel)      Join Date: Nov 2005       08-14-2011, 12:59 PM Reply   
After seeing Dave's build pics of his 2012 MB, I would be looking at 2012 MB vs 2012 Axis but that's just me.
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-14-2011, 1:06 PM Reply   
Relatively little change between 2011 and 2012 MB. Mostly cosmetic and better deal on the 2011.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-14-2011, 1:40 PM Reply   
^^^ Yes, the 2011 is the same hull, tower, and engine as the 2012. So performance will be identical. And you are right that 2011's are probably a steal right now. I wouldn't be surprised if you paid mid to high $40's for a 2011 at this point.

I want to ride behind an Axis, just so I can see what you are all talking about. The wake sure looks great in the pics/videos I've seen.
Old    Lionel (lionel)      Join Date: Nov 2005       08-14-2011, 1:41 PM Reply   
JR, I would get the 2012 for deeper seats and bigger tracking fins/better handling. 2 big changes IMO....Is it worth the extra few thousand? Probably not, but I would still get the 2012.

Last edited by lionel; 08-14-2011 at 1:44 PM.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-14-2011, 1:48 PM Reply   
What i meant by buildable is that the axis has 900 in hard tanks and plug n play option adds two pumps (a fill and empty) and all the hises ran with anti siphon and one way valves. You can choose what bags to put in the lockers, 400, 600, 750, or 1100s. You do loose storage space, but even with the 750s quarter bouncing full you have a lot of locker space left. As for the bow sack, its a 950 that is hidden under the seats. U can have 0-4500 lbs all on switches, no bags on floor, no pumps over the side, no body having to climb around fat sacks everywhere. MBs, as far as i was told, cant have sacks added to the hard tanks. The few guys i know that run more than stock weight in there mbs have sacks in the bow and floor, filled with pumps over the side.

Thats what is meant by buildable. The mb stock wake is great, enough for most of us, same goes with the axis stock and wedge. But if u want more, or want to surf, the axis is better prepared for it.

Its hard for me to look at a 50k+ wakeboat and think about putting fat sacks on the floor and bow. Its even harder for me to contemplate a $90k xstar knowing i will b throwing fat sacks on the floor and seats...

Anyhow, ride the mb wake full stock ballast, its a blast!
Old    Cipher (Cipher)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-14-2011, 2:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_defacto View Post
But if u want more, or want to surf, the axis is better prepared for it.
If the Axis is better prepared then why are they introducing a new swim deck to fix the surf wave?

Looking at the pics and vids of the Axis surf wake, and reading the post of Axis owners wherein they complain about the surf wake, I question whether the Axis is better prepared for surfing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_defacto View Post
Its hard for me to look at a 50k+ wakeboat and think about putting fat sacks on the floor and bow.
I don't understand your references to putting sacks on the floor in the MBs.

When I fill a bow sack and sacks for surfing, there are no sacks on the floor, that ballast is hidden under the seats and in the locker.
Old    Seth M (Sethjoe)      Join Date: Apr 2011       08-14-2011, 2:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
If the Axis is better prepared then why are they introducing a new swim deck to fix the surf wave?
God forbid a company tweaks a design to make it better.
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-14-2011, 3:06 PM Reply   
There goes this thread which was not confrontational just opinions with no fighting or bashing. Should have known that it was only a matter of time before Cipher would start in. Please keep opinions and thoughts coming with no sniping at each other. Can't we all just get along? LOL
Old    Cipher (Cipher)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-14-2011, 3:32 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethjoe View Post
God forbid a company tweaks a design to make it better.
I think it's great that they're tweaking the deck. More happy surfers is a good thing.

My question related to the fact that it is just being released, so I don't understand how someone could think that the Axis is better prepared for surfing at this time.

That's all. No bashing and no sniping, despite the hand wringing by wakintime above.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-14-2011, 3:40 PM Reply   
I stand by my observation that the axis is better preparred to add more weight, for wakeboarding or surfing. I did not mention quality of surf wake.

And as for the 50k+ wakeboat with fat sacks on the floor, bow (or nice vinyl covered seats OR in the locker) having to be filled and emptied with a portable pump, plugged into a power source with a hose thrown over the side...that applies to MB, as well as nautique, malibu. Mastercraft, sciers choice, and all manufactures except axis and epic.


I hated dealing with sacks and pumps and having lead everywhere in my previous boat. Thats a "pro" for axis and a "con" for MB.

To the O.P. if the a20 is 6k more, id lean toward the f21 if comp equiped and if the stock ballast will b enough.
Old    CORY MITCHELL (stang_killa_ss)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-14-2011, 4:20 PM Reply   
i would assess what the axis has that the MB doesnt. then simply ask yourself are those items worth $6000 to YOU.
assuming all else is equal in your eyes.
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-14-2011, 5:06 PM Reply   
It is now a $3500 difference. The MB is a much deeper hull which makes it harder for our kids and even shorter people to get in the boat. The swim step is higher out of the water and though it is no problem for me again kids and shorter people I think would have a problem. I love the gravity ballast system in the MB however I don't like that I have to be moving to let ballast out and not be moving to fill. TheMB is plusher and has tons of storage space. There will have to be a wake plate installed on the MB for the bow rise. Even the 2012 I'm looking at doesn't have the plate. Anyway thanks for all your opinions. If it was for looks only I would get the tomcat. Beautiful but so many other reasons to get a boat so looking for the input.
Old    Cipher (Cipher)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-14-2011, 5:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakintime View Post
It is now a $3500 difference. The MB is a much deeper hull which makes it harder for our kids and even shorter people to get in the boat. The swim step is higher out of the water and though it is no problem for me again kids and shorter people I think would have a problem.
FWIW, we've had a bunch of different kids, short people, and even pretty fat middle-aged people (think 250 pound, 5'5" woman), on our boat and the swim step height has not been an issue.

If it was, you could always fill the tanks (60 seconds) and it would be like one of those kneeling buses that drop to ground so the old folks can get on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakintime View Post
I love the gravity ballast system in the MB however I don't like that I have to be moving to let ballast out and not be moving to fill.
I came from an older MB and I had upgraded the pumps for faster fill/drain. I would never go back. It's simply too easy to fill or drain in a tenth of the time it used to take.
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-14-2011, 5:32 PM Reply   
Thanks Cipher. I will let the kids and fat, short and old people know that it is just as easy to get in to compared to a lower profile boat. Thanks for your input about the ballast. That is the kind of things ii want to know about. Thanks.
Old     (TheSqueakyWheel)      Join Date: Oct 2010       08-14-2011, 5:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakintime View Post
It is now a $3500 difference. The MB is a much deeper hull which makes it harder for our kids and even shorter people to get in the boat. The swim step is higher out of the water and though it is no problem for me again kids and shorter people I think would have a problem. I love the gravity ballast system in the MB however I don't like that I have to be moving to let ballast out and not be moving to fill. TheMB is plusher and has tons of storage space. There will have to be a wake plate installed on the MB for the bow rise. Even the 2012 I'm looking at doesn't have the plate. Anyway thanks for all your opinions. If it was for looks only I would get the tomcat. Beautiful but so many other reasons to get a boat so looking for the input.
The wakeplate is an option. Here at altitude (Colorado), the dealer only orders MB boats with the plate. We've had no problems getting a fully ballasted 21 Tomcat, with an additional 2000 lbs of bag ballast (fully hidden under the seats), up on plane.
Old    Cipher (Cipher)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-14-2011, 5:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakintime View Post
Thanks Cipher. I will let the kids and fat, short and old people know that it is just as easy to get in to compared to a lower profile boat. .
That's not what I posted but I can't say that I am not surprised by your response.
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-14-2011, 5:52 PM Reply   
Cipher,
Let's call a truce. We both are a bit sarcastic but I truly thank you for your take on the ballast. It is making me lean back towards the MB. You are very knowledgable and a wealth of good information. Truce?
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-14-2011, 5:57 PM Reply   
I've been very pleased with my a22. Yes, the axis interior is more utilitarian than the mb interior. I'll admit that I used to despise mbs interior and gel schemes, but once mb calmed down with all the flames, swooshes and stuff, I really began to like the way the mbs look. As for the mb wake, I can't give any insight on the current hulls. In regard to the axis boats, the a22 and a20 both produce absolutely killer wakes. Let's be honest, it's one of the main reasons these boats are selling so well. Most people are not going to look at the interior of the axis boats and fall down raving over how it's the best they've ever seen. It's nice, functional and durable. It's not intended to be the most complex, blinged out interior on the market.

The a22 and a20 were designed to perform very well when slammed with weight. It's a riders boat, and was intended to address issues thar people like me, who try to ride a bunch with a lot of weight, have had with other boats. I too hated having to mess with pumps and sacs all the time with my other boats. I love how I can flip 4 switches and fill 4k in ballast in my boat. I too wanted a nice clean butt high wake at 22-23 mph at 75ft that's not hypersensitive to shifting weight, wind or chop. The axis boats deliver that wake for me.

Because all I know about the current mb boats is what I see online, I have no true insight into quality, wake characteristics, etc. I can say that the interior looks really impressive- on par with what you'd expect to see in an x25, vlx or 230. If you don't plan on ever needing over factory weight, the mb ballast would be super handy, being that it fills and dumps so fast. However, I don't like the fact that, to add additional permanent ballast in an mb, you'd have to drill holes and install an entire plumbed in system from the ground up. With 2 kids, a demanding job, my time on the water is precious, so I do get a window of time to ride, I really like just being able to punch 4 rocker switches, drop the wedge, idle to the channel and toss out a rope. When I'm done, I can just dump everything, pull the wedge up and throw on the cover. No sacs or pumps to roll up and store, no sac slime to wipe off the seats, etc.

Just go demo both the axis boats and the mb boats. You'll like all of them, I'm sure. You need to be thinking about how you intend to use the boat, how good your dealer is about supporting it's customers, how the boats perform weighted and unweighted, how satisfied you are with the stock wake and wave, and if you want more, how easy it will be to deal with adding weight. Take a set behind the boats. Vary your speed, line length, and think about how the wake will be for your kids/wife, etc. If you plan to slam your boat, bring sacs with you or 12 of your closest friends, and see what you think of the results.

Lastly, how about asking your local dealer to refer you to a customer of theirs who actually owns whatever boat you are considering purchasing who would be willing to talk to you. You may find out some additional interesting nuggets of info from them, good and bad, about their boats.

I don't think you can go wrong either way so long as you get a good price. Just go do the demos and try to consider some of the things you've read during the demos. I hope you have great experiences with both brands and choose the boat that suits you best.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-14-2011, 6:12 PM Reply   
I know you said youve ridden both the axis and mb, but a full dealer demo may help show you things that you didn't see before, not to mention allow you to see what the dealer's like. A good dealer is super important.

Oh and as for resale, a friend of mine just sold his 2011 a22 in about 2 weeks for a really good price, my local dealer has sold several consignment 2010s this season for good money. I feel that the axis boats are doing really well in the resale department. I'm sure mb should do well too in the resale department, but you ought to do some research on craigslist and boattrader to help you see where you will be in 2-3 years.
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-14-2011, 6:23 PM Reply   
Thanks Chattwake,
I was hoping to get your insight on Axis and you delivered. The wedge and plug and play are really what I love on the Axis. You hit the nail on the head. The Axis dealer is top notch. No pressure and wanting to take us for a full day to demo. Just a great guy and great reputation. Thanks.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-14-2011, 8:31 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakintime View Post
Cipher,
Let's call a truce. We both are a bit sarcastic but I truly thank you for your take on the ballast. It is making me lean back towards the MB. You are very knowledgable and a wealth of good information. Truce?
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-14-2011, 8:39 PM Reply   
Good one!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-14-2011, 8:46 PM Reply   
Let me start this by saying that I haven't been in either boat so take what I say with a grain of salt. All my views are derived from what I have read on wakeworld and seen in pictures. that being said both boats seem to be talked about the most and if I was in the position to buy a new boat I would strongly consider both of these boats even if money was no worry. I think I would probably lean more towards the MB because of the ballast system and that they seem to have a more finished/luxuries look to them. I also prefer the less edgy looks of the MB.

In response to the comment on the more buildable wake or easier built wake remember that it wouldn't be that hard or expensive to plumb in pumps with 2 rear bags for surfing and a third front bag if you wanted it for whatever reason. With the MB being 3500 cheaper you could add a custom sunbrella cover, wakeplate and plumb in surf sacks. At that point you have an awesome boat with quick fill auto ballast for wakeboarding plus plumbed in sacs for surfing.

In the end pick the boat you like better and makes you happy.
Old    Cipher (Cipher)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-14-2011, 9:06 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
With the MB being 3500 cheaper you could add a custom sunbrella cover
Already included in the base price...

Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-14-2011, 9:13 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
Already included in the base price...

Is that sunbrella or sharkskin? It looks more like sharkskin to me but if it is sunbrella chock another win on the MB side. If it is sharkskin it isn't goodo for anything other then the occassional shower or to be used as a dust cover.

By the way, great looking boat.
Old    Cipher (Cipher)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-14-2011, 9:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
Is that sunbrella or sharkskin?
http://mbsports.net/accessory_view.asp?accessory=covers
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-14-2011, 9:51 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakintime View Post
I love the gravity ballast system in the MB however I don't like that I have to be moving to let ballast out and not be moving to fill.
Why would you want to fill while moving? You are thinking like a guy who's used to slow pumps. The MB tanks fill faster than it takes your rider to get up and get his life vest on. There really is no need to fill while underway. You have to stop for at least a minute for the rider to get in the water, right?

If you want them full from the start, just open the tanks on the ramp. You will be full before you get off the trailer.

Honestly, when we say a minute, it's not an exageration. I've timed it. They actually dump in less than a minute (aprox. 45 seconds).

As for emptying them, here's a funny story for you... When I got my first MB in 2009, I used to make everybody sit down while I blasted down the river at 40 mph to get the ballast empty. "Sit down everybody and hold on. It's time to empty the ballast." I honestly believed you had really be going WOT for the water to come out. Hahaha.

Then one day I was up on the surf board, and I realized I forgot to close the ballast gate before I jumped in. I could clearly see from right behind the boat that water was dumping back out into the river... and we were going 10 mph. That's the day I realized I could dump ballast on the sly whenever I wanted, even at slow speeds. It doesn't require a 40mph production.

So now I just open the gates whenever I want to dump. Even if the ballast is 100% full and my daughter (11) is riding next. I open the tanks as she's getting in the water. As soon as she gets up the water is already coming out. In the time it takes her to smooth out her board shorts, adjust her vest, and signal to me that she can't hear the music, the tanks are empty... so I close the gates (otherwise they'll fill again when I stop). Nobody in the boat even knows I'm filling and emptying tanks. No fuss, no muss.

Here's another nifty trick. Surfing. Let's say my wife (regular) surfs first (ballast in port tank). When she's done it's my daughter's turn. She's goofy so I need to move 900 lbs. of water from one side ot the other. As my wife climbs in the boat I simply open both tanks. The starboard side floods. The port side is already flooded. A minute later both sides are full. So I close the gate on the starboard side (the side I want to keep the water in once my goofy daughter gets up). I leave the port side tank open. While my daughter is pulling herself up and getting into position, the port tank is spitting out water and the boat lists to the drivers side... the wave takes shape 45 seconds from the moment she yelled "hit it!" I just moved 900 lbs. of water from one side the boat to the other, and nobody even noticed! I did it all while they were getting towels, moving to the platform, etc.

The point is this... you'll get very good at manipulating the weight in the boat without any passengers even knowing what you are doing. Honestly, my family has gotten so spoiled.

And for the record, I never wakeboard or surf with more than stock ballast in the boat. That's the whole value proposition of the MB to me... I don't deal with sacks, pumps, or wedges. I just fill (or don't fill depending on my rider) and go. All this talk about 4k lbs. of weight, pumps, bags, storage loss, etc. sounds like a huge pain in the a$$ to me. You guys must be really good riders to justify pro level weight and the hassle it takes to achieve it. I've had some pretty good riders on my boat. The MB wake impresses them all.

Here's is the stock surf wake... plenty for me to have fun.



Here is the stock wakeboard wake with only three guys in the boat (I wish the rider was me).

Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-14-2011, 10:31 PM Reply   
Thanks DBC. You've given me a lot of great information. I appreciate it because when I started this thread I was confused. You and everyone who has posted have given great insight. Now it is up to me to make a decision. Thanks again.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-14-2011, 10:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakintime View Post
Thanks DBC. You've given me a lot of great information. I appreciate it because when I started this thread I was confused. You and everyone who has posted have given great insight. Now it is up to me to make a decision. Thanks again.
No problem, JR.

You know what just occurred to me... you haven't posted pics of either the MB or the Axis you are looking at. That's half the fun!
Old    Cipher (Cipher)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-14-2011, 10:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
You guys must be really good riders to justify pro level weight and the hassle it takes to achieve it.
I will trade the "hassle" of 10 minutes of sack filling (while sipping on a beer watching the kids have a swim break) for a MUCH more fun surf wake any day.

It's not a hassle (IMO of course) and the surf wake is so much more fun than just filling one tank...

The size and quality of the surf wake does not only depend on the lean (filling only one tank), it's how deep you sink the hull (filling both tanks with some bonus ballast on top.

Signed,

Not a really good rider
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-14-2011, 10:45 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
Why would you want to fill while moving? You are thinking like a guy who's used to slow pumps. The MB tanks fill faster than it takes your rider to get up and get his life vest on. There really is no need to fill while underway. You have to stop for at least a minute for the rider to get in the water, right?

If you want them full from the start, just open the tanks on the ramp. You will be full before you get off the trailer.

Honestly, when we say a minute, it's not an exageration. I've timed it. They actually dump in less than a minute (aprox. 45 seconds).

As for emptying them, here's a funny story for you... When I got my first MB in 2009, I used to make everybody sit down while I blasted down the river at 40 mph to get the ballast empty. "Sit down everybody and hold on. It's time to empty the ballast." I honestly believed you had really be going WOT for the water to come out. Hahaha.

Then one day I was up on the surf board, and I realized I forgot to close the ballast gate before I jumped in. I could clearly see from right behind the boat that water was dumping back out into the river... and we were going 10 mph. That's the day I realized I could dump ballast on the sly whenever I wanted, even at slow speeds. It doesn't require a 40mph production.

So now I just open the gates whenever I want to dump. Even if the ballast is 100% full and my daughter (11) is riding next. I open the tanks as she's getting in the water. As soon as she gets up the water is already coming out. In the time it takes her to smooth out her board shorts, adjust her vest, and signal to me that she can't hear the music, the tanks are empty... so I close the gates (otherwise they'll fill again when I stop). Nobody in the boat even knows I'm filling and emptying tanks. No fuss, no muss.

Here's another nifty trick. Surfing. Let's say my wife (regular) surfs first (ballast in port tank). When she's done it's my daughter's turn. She's goofy so I need to move 900 lbs. of water from one side ot the other. As my wife climbs in the boat I simply open both tanks. The starboard side floods. The port side is already flooded. A minute later both sides are full. So I close the gate on the starboard side (the side I want to keep the water in once my goofy daughter gets up). I leave the port side tank open. While my daughter is pulling herself up and getting into position, the port tank is spitting out water and the boat lists to the drivers side... the wave takes shape 45 seconds from the moment she yelled "hit it!" I just moved 900 lbs. of water from one side the boat to the other, and nobody even noticed! I did it all while they were getting towels, moving to the platform, etc.

The point is this... you'll get very good at manipulating the weight in the boat without any passengers even knowing what you are doing. Honestly, my family has gotten so spoiled.

And for the record, I never wakeboard or surf with more than stock ballast in the boat. That's the whole value proposition of the MB to me... I don't deal with sacks, pumps, or wedges. I just fill (or don't fill depending on my rider) and go. All this talk about 4k lbs. of weight, pumps, bags, storage loss, etc. sounds like a huge pain in the a$$ to me. You guys must be really good riders to justify pro level weight and the hassle it takes to achieve it. I've had some pretty good riders on my boat. The MB wake impresses them all.

Here's is the stock surf wake... plenty for me to have fun.



Here is the stock wakeboard wake with only three guys in the boat (I wish the rider was me).

Pretty cool to know you can do that, I think the gravity fill is such a cool idea. I often wish our tige had it. I see where the OP is concerned though, it was the first issue that came to mind when I first read about the system. If your on the water, and your boat craps out, run out of gas, foul a prop, whatever, your stuck with a boat that's full of ballast. Who's gonna give a tow to a sacked wakeboat? I know I wouldn't be happy to. If your stuck AND it's nasty weather, And your in a canyon or near the dock, it's real tough to stop the momentum of that boat as a swimmer.

I realize those are pretty big "what-ifs" but it's definitely something to think about. The added ballast is definitely enough to drastically increase the energy needed to stop it from moving, think about it, takes more fuel (energy) to get it moving too!
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-14-2011, 10:50 PM Reply   
Btw, DBC , that surf wave looks killer AND it's goofy!! If you've got more pics of the reg wave I'd love to see them. Can't wait for someone to really slam one of the MB's for surfing and max out it's surf wave.
Old    Cipher (Cipher)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-14-2011, 10:51 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebeaverandboats View Post
If your on the water, and your boat craps out, run out of gas, foul a prop, whatever, your stuck with a boat that's full of ballast. Who's gonna give a tow to a sacked wakeboat?
I was concerned with that "what if?" as well.

Now that I understand the system, I'm not as concerned.

If you can get a tow, you can open the gates and drain the ballast while under tow. If your battery dies (how would you use pumps to empty tanks in that case?) you can manually open and close the gates. Get a tow, drain the tanks and then close the gates.

Pretty extreme "what ifs?" but there are some solutions.
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-14-2011, 10:55 PM Reply   
Cipher,
What do you do for a great surf wake? Do you keep both sides filled and move some bodies or weight to the side of the boat your rider is on either regular or goofy?
Thanks
Old    Cipher (Cipher)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-14-2011, 10:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebeaverandboats View Post
Btw, DBC , that surf wave looks killer AND it's goofy!! If you've got more pics of the reg wave I'd love to see them. Can't wait for someone to really slam one of the MB's for surfing and max out it's surf wave.
Still room for more slamming, not quite maxed out:




Old    Cipher (Cipher)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-14-2011, 11:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakintime View Post
Cipher,
What do you do for a great surf wake? Do you keep both sides filled and move some bodies or weight to the side of the boat your rider is on either regular or goofy?
Thanks
Both tanks filled and extra ballast and bodies on the surf side. It's a better surf wake than just leaning the boat by filling only one side.
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-14-2011, 11:26 PM Reply   
That makes sense. Thanks for the tip. Appreciate it.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-15-2011, 8:15 AM Reply   
I've got a quick question about the mb ballast system. I have a very basic understanding of how it works, but I've not been on an mb with the current gravity fill system. What if you have someone on the boat who wants to ride with something other than the full factory ballast - like 1/2 ballast. How do you know when the tanks are half full? Also, I know I've been on boats where we've had to fill or dump a little ballast to offset some people/cooler/battery weight on one side. It is easy to let a little weight out of one side or another while pulling a rider to dial the wake in?
Old     (TheSqueakyWheel)      Join Date: Oct 2010       08-15-2011, 8:20 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake View Post
I've got a quick question about the mb ballast system. I have a very basic understanding of how it works, but I've not been on an mb with the current gravity fill system. What if you have someone on the boat who wants to ride with something other than the full factory ballast - like 1/2 ballast. How do you know when the tanks are half full? Also, I know I've been on boats where we've had to fill or dump a little ballast to offset some people/cooler/battery weight on one side. It is easy to let a little weight out of one side or another while pulling a rider to dial the wake in?
There's a ballast gauge. yes, add/draining is as simple as pressing a button and watching the gauge.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-15-2011, 8:33 AM Reply   
Gotcha, I didn't know if a gauge would keep up with how fast it filled, but I guess that makes sense. My 230 ballast gauges lagged behind a big while filling.

While pulling a rider, your option for shifting ballast weight is to dump a little at a time, right? The gravity system doesn't fill while moving?

Also, my friend here in Chattanooga has a 1999 mc 205v that he's essentially restored (new vinyl, tower, perfect pass, etc.) and he wants to add an intergrated ballast sytem. I was wondering if someone, who has added a piggie back system to an mb, can tell me what it cost so I can give him a ballpark estimate.

Last edited by chattwake; 08-15-2011 at 8:35 AM.
Old     (TheSqueakyWheel)      Join Date: Oct 2010       08-15-2011, 8:35 AM Reply   
correct. you can dump while moving but fill while stationary.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-15-2011, 8:53 AM Reply   
Oh, btw, here's a picture of the goofy wave with the new A22 platform. Looks pretty good to me. It was a bit windy, as you can tell.
Attached Images
 
Old    Jeff Harter (jmanst15)      Join Date: Jun 2010       08-15-2011, 11:02 AM Reply   
that thing looks huge! post some more pics of the new platform!

For the OP,
I have major envy of your situation. Buying a newer MB or Axis and not being able to decide is a sweet problem! I have not been on either but just like someone from above, I am on the boards pretty frequently and have read a bunch of posts about both. An outsiders prospective sometimes can give you another angle to look at things from and I hope this can possibly help with your decision. Resale may not be super important if you plan to keep your boat for a LONG time. In my situation, my family has an 01 VLX. The resale is not super important to me because 1. its 10 years old already. 2. by the time i am able to upgrade its gonna be 15 years old. If this is the goal for your boat then the resale may not be as important as the quality of the materials used. I will say that after 10 years, my bu has held up great! MB's interior seems to have better materials that may last longer, but this is all a guess as they both have not stood the test of time.

Also, DBC had an impressive post above about his MB. That ballast system seems excellent and the wakeboarding wake looked great with just stock ballast (especially in comparison to my 01 bu with just its factory ballast, 1 center sac,). I will say that I have caught the Axis buzz and its mostly from Chattwake haha. I LOVE BU's, but know that most likely I might never be able to afford one by myself (I am a teacher). The Axis is made by malibu, has been receiving rave reviews, has the wedge which can be very useful, has a great edgy look, huge bow, and WAY more bling than my 01 has. Definitely demo each. If you cant stop thinking about one of them, or you always keep coming back to one, you'll know that that's the right one. Go with your gut, even if its a little more money. You only live life once!

GOOD LUCK
Old    SS (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       08-15-2011, 12:02 PM Reply   
I think above, someone expressed some concern about what you do in the event a boat with full gravity fill/empty ballast stalls and can't be gotten up on plane. I'd imagine you'd have a similar issue with towing a weighted boat that uses pumps if it had a dead battery, pump issue, or other electrical issue. At least with the pure vert system, your fully weighted dead boat would drain on the trailer.

I also have a question about the "plug and play" system. Do any sacks with the newer style fittings work with the system? What comes stock?
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-15-2011, 12:18 PM Reply   
The stock pnp system comes with two hoses on each side in the rear hatches of the boat that are precut and attached to two "U" fitting on each side. The hoses can be disconnected from the "U" fitting and utilized to fill and dump an additional sac on each side in the rear ski lockers. The hoses are long enough to reach the fill and dump holes in normal ballast bags. There are no fittings per se on the hoses. You can either buy white plastic fittings from home depot for $2 each, or you can get stronger fittings from fly high for like $6 each (what I recommend) if you go with the fly high bags. If you have the older style sacs, you can simply screw your old blue fittings into the sacs and then attach the fittings to the fill and dump hose with a hose clamp. The way the rear plug in play works is that the hard tanks fill first and then overflow into the bags. The system dumps the same way.

The front portion of the plug in play system is much the same, except it comes with a vent line for the front sac. The rear sacs piggie back on top of the pumps that fill the rear had tanks, but the front sac has its own dedicated pump. Because it does not piggie back over an existing tank with a vent, the front pnp sac setup incorporates the extra vent hose.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by chattwake; 08-15-2011 at 12:20 PM.
Old    Bruizza (bruizza)      Join Date: May 2009       08-15-2011, 2:15 PM Reply   
I am stoked my local dealer just picked up MB. I absolutely can't wait to go out on one. They should be getting their first one any day now. I am dying to see what the wake is like compared to our Axis. There isn't a whole lot I can add to this thread that Chattwake hasn't already commented on. As soon as I can get behind an MB I will report back how the wake compares to our Axis with the PnP system.
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-15-2011, 2:49 PM Reply   
Jeff,
I've had two bu wakesetter vlx's and wish I would have hung on to my last one. I know I will probably not be able to get a new one for awhile. They have gone up so much it's insane. I have made the decision to go with the MB. It is a 2011 with less than 15 hours. The only thing I am not happy about is that it is not on the MB trailer. It is om a sports boat trailer and that thing moans and groans. Any idea why the trailer would do that? Thanks
Old    SS (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       08-15-2011, 5:29 PM Reply   
Chatt,

is it fair to assume that the PNP system comes factory with a pump for front, or do you have to add that? Sounds like a well thought out system.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-15-2011, 5:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakintime View Post
I have made the decision to go with the MB. It is a 2011 with less than 15 hours. The only thing I am not happy about is that it is not on the MB trailer. It is om a sports boat trailer and that thing moans and groans. Any idea why the trailer would do that? Thanks
JR... nice to hear you made a decision. Sounds like you are getting a good deal. What's the deal on the trailer? Why not an MB trailer? Are you buying from Larson?

Post up some pics already!!
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-15-2011, 5:52 PM Reply   
I am not very happy with the trailer. It moans and groans when being pull.? Any ideas?
Thanks.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-15-2011, 5:53 PM Reply   
I love the gravity fill/empty concept. Adding 1 big sack for surfing seems fair too.
Old    Cipher (Cipher)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-15-2011, 10:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_defacto View Post
I stand by my observation that the axis is better preparred to add more weight, for wakeboarding or surfing. I did not mention quality of surf wake.
Your comments are best considered when put in the proper context:

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_defacto View Post
as far as the surf wake, i do not know, i dont surf or care to, i love the huge swim platform and do not like the new one on the 2012s that are supposed to help the surf wave be better...
Old    Jake (jdhart73)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-15-2011, 10:42 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake View Post
Oh, btw, here's a picture of the goofy wave with the new A22 platform. Looks pretty good to me. It was a bit windy, as you can tell.

Looks big but pretty steep and short, could maybe be ironed out with some speed adjustments?
Is that a leprechaun surfing?
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-15-2011, 11:18 PM Reply   
Does anyone know what would make the trailer moan and groan while towing with the MB on it. It is 2011 sports trailer not the one that MB puts there's on. It is what the dealer put the boat on. I guess I could buy a different trailer but.......i just don't know why it is making these noises. I have had a lot of boats but never heard anything like this on the extreme or boat mate trailers. Any ideas why?
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-15-2011, 11:19 PM Reply   
Yes, quote only part of my statement leaving out important content and then make a comment about context. Nice one, i will have to try that sometime.


Its no big deal really, i can make observations about wake surfing without being a wakesurfer, especially when my observations are objective. I slump my axis with 4k with 4 switches in 10 minutes. You slightly lower ur mb in 45 seconds then have to fiddle with pumps and sacks for 10 minutes or more. Im not hating, just obser-vating.
Old    Jake (jdhart73)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-15-2011, 11:22 PM Reply   
Johnny D dropping science on us ^^^^^
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-15-2011, 11:51 PM Reply   
JR, you should call up the dealer that sold you the boat/trailer and ask them to make it right -- they should not be selling you a trailer with "groaning" issues. Any idea where the "groan" is coming from?
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-16-2011, 12:10 AM Reply   
It seems to come from the whole trailer. Can't even pinpoint where it's coming from. Guess will call dealer. Just a long drive.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2011, 12:38 AM Reply   
Does it groan... When you turn? When you break? When you go slow? Going fast? Hitting bumps? When you shake the boat while parked?

There is very little that should groan. The options are:

a) ball and hitch.
b) surge break assembly near the hitch.
c) axles/bearings needing lube/replacement (they suffer going in water).
d) breaks hung up on the drums/rotors.
e) springs needing help.

The most likely is "c".

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