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Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       07-14-2011, 10:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by gotwake133 View Post
I dont understand where everyone is getting the 90k+ price tag? I personally know 2 people that have picked up a 200 sport this year in the 60k area. granted they were not loaded to the nines, but had normal options, racks, speakers, ballast, PP, heater, etc.
I'm getting the 90k price tag from two different dealers. If it was 60k, I probably would have one right now. After talking to dealers about Nautiques, Malibus, Axis, and MB, I feel the Midwest has the highest prices for towboats.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       07-15-2011, 7:58 AM Reply   
Swatguy, I agree. I know people keep wanting innovation but there is just way too big of a difference today in the cost of boats then there was 10 years ago. The only thing we have really seen improve is fancier towers, stereos and LCD screens. Everythign else seems to be small improvements over previous designs. I know some of it is they have just gotten bigger so there is more raw material in the boats but 10 years ago I am guess the most loaded wakeboard boat you could get was around 50k. Now they are up around 100k for a boat that more or less functions the same. I would love to see a company come out with a 20, 21.5 and 23 foot boat that have built in ballast plus plug and play, a standard tower, analog gauges, PP, simple wrap around interior and a pcm engine. There is no reason for the boats I am explaining to be more then 40, 45 and 50 respectively and even then it might not be that big of a difference. I guess in some respects Axis is somewhat close to that price point and uses those principles. I think at some point the market may shift back this way. I am not saying the ultra luxury ones won't exist but that the price point reliable boats may become a lot more popular.

I wonder how much cheaper a boat can be built in Mexico? I am all for creating US jobs but if the products built in the US aren't close to competetive then some other avenues need to be open to keep these US companies in check. Maybe it doesn't work because boating is such a small industry compared to automobiles. I would also like to see some sort of innovation in the building process so they can make the hull cheaper. Is hand laid fiberglass really the mos efficient way to build a boat. I refuse to believe that someone can't build a machine to somehow stamp out a solid fiberglass mold. Again, maybe companies would have to invest way too much capital in the machines to ever make it make sense.

By the way, if you can get that boat with the wakeboard package for low ot mid 60's that isn't horrible.

Another thing, when people start sayign what they are quoted don't include tax. Tax rates are different among states and some don't have sales tax. The only way to come close to comparing apples to apples is for the boat, trailer(99% of people get a trailer so this should be included), freight/prep. The bottom line number that doesn't include tax and license is the number that should be mentioned.
Old    Tampa Wake (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       07-15-2011, 8:22 AM Reply   
The closest is Axis and you can see why they are so popular they cant keep up with production. However, rumor is they are going up 4 to 6% next year. I don't get it. I own my own company and have zero ability to raise prices like that. Thanks god the old school x star still kicks it but sure would kill for more space in the boat!
Old    Jason (jason95gt)      Join Date: May 2006       07-15-2011, 8:31 AM Reply   
Until a boat is made of something other than a bi-product of oil, they will continue to go up. Vinyl, aluminum, gel, fiberglass is all a boat is and it is a barrel of oil. It is a chain of events. If one supplier for metal has an increase in costs and they try to keep margins the same it just goes down the line to the finished product.
Old    Nate Ramsey (V237TX_Nate)      Join Date: Jun 2011       07-15-2011, 1:20 PM Reply   
Brett - I agree, someone needs to start building these boats in mexico. I think you should be able to buy a badass boat for 30G's, its rediculous that just because the term "wakeboat" is applied the companies think they need to sell them for atleast 50g's. I really wonder what the markup is on these boats, gotta be like 50% or something crazy, cause I just don't see 100k worth of raw materials in these, you can buy a small house for that much!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       07-15-2011, 1:51 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by V237TX_Nate View Post
Brett - I agree, someone needs to start building these boats in mexico. I think you should be able to buy a badass boat for 30G's, its rediculous that just because the term "wakeboat" is applied the companies think they need to sell them for atleast 50g's. I really wonder what the markup is on these boats, gotta be like 50% or something crazy, cause I just don't see 100k worth of raw materials in these, you can buy a small house for that much!
I can't tell you what the markup is on these boats currently and all brands vary to some degree. Hell even certain models would tend to vary within one boat line. When I was selling MC for Cope in 2007 this is how we price them to the best of my knowledge. I tended to dig father into it then most people. I wasn't jsut some guppy salesperson.

Invoice cost plus the pack(supposedly the cost of doing business or some crap) which was 1500. Then we tried to get between 20 and 23% GP which is a a calculation of previously added up items divided by .77(23% GP). Then we would add 1500 for freight and prep. I think a moderately priced X2 in 07 was ~62,500. To find true cost we would subtract 1500, multiply by .77 then subtract another 1500(pack). This would get us back to invoice cost and I am guessing that a dealer the size of cope probably got 3-5% back on invoice so you can multiply that by .96(middle ground 4% discount). This would give us the actual price the dealer paid. Then we would actually need to add 1000 or so for freight to come up with the actual cost of the boat/trailer. There may have been a slightly different % for the trailer but it is close. This means that that X2 we sold for ~62.5 cost:

62,500-1500(freight and prep)=61000*.77(23%GP)=46970-1500(pack)=45470*.96(discount off invoice)=43651+1000(actual freight)=44651.

44651/62500=.7144=~38.5% GP or $17,849 in gross profit dollars.

Obviously this is jsut guestimates and is just gross profit. I have no idea what the overhead would cost and you also should figure the cost of flooring into the boat.

Now we didn't make crap on Centurion's. At least not the way I could tell. I have a feeling though the Copes and Karl Kostner were buddy buddy and Karl was giving the Copes a big discount off invoice that didn't show up at my level.
Old    Jason (jason95gt)      Join Date: May 2006       07-15-2011, 1:52 PM Reply   
It isn't the term Wakeboat because if you have looked at a Ranger fishing boat depending on motor are easily $70k. Everyone please remember that we are talking a couple thousand units sold a year not 100 of thousands. MasterCraft sells the most and they build about 1900 last year. Run a business off of that and you will see that there is margin, but all the companies are running leaner than they ever have.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       07-15-2011, 2:13 PM Reply   
Of coarse what I said has nothing to do with the markup the manufacturer's use to dealers.
Old    Sander (tripsw)      Join Date: May 2006       07-15-2011, 10:57 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason95gt View Post
MasterCraft sells the most and they build about 1900 last year.
Are there any numbers online, somewhere? I thought (read somewhere some time ago) that Malibu sold the most boats, and that the Moomba Mobius/21v was the best sold model. Would be interested to see the actual numbers.
O
Old    KEVIN (kko13)      Join Date: Jul 2006       07-16-2011, 2:33 AM Reply   
Sorry to say not a fan.I saw one of these in person a few weeks ago while I was in winterhaven,Fl. Being towed around by Lucky Lowe of all people..LOL. I hope you are kidding about the 90k price! This is a small boat and should not be anywhwere near 90k. It did have a for sale sign on it but I didnt ask how much. It was really was one of the ugliest boats I have ever seen. Now i will say the ones pictured here look somewhat better..but still not a fan.
Swat- Tige went that route with the R20.Very nice entry level boat with the basics and can be optioned up if desired and loaded upyou get the RZR. So you can go from low 40s to upper 60s depending on what you want. Both wakebaord and surf wakes are excellent on the R20 and RZR.
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       07-16-2011, 5:55 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by kko13 View Post
Sorry to say not a fan.I saw one of these in person a few weeks ago while I was in winterhaven,Fl. Being towed around by Lucky Lowe of all people..LOL. I hope you are kidding about the 90k price! This is a small boat and should not be anywhwere near 90k. It did have a for sale sign on it but I didnt ask how much. It was really was one of the ugliest boats I have ever seen. Now i will say the ones pictured here look somewhat better..but still not a fan.
Swat- Tige went that route with the R20.Very nice entry level boat with the basics and can be optioned up if desired and loaded upyou get the RZR. So you can go from low 40s to upper 60s depending on what you want. Both wakebaord and surf wakes are excellent on the R20 and RZR.
I am not a fan of the lines either. The backend looks pretty bad in my opinion. As far as the 90k, I am not kidding. If you want I can scan my build sheet. Granted tax and trailer are included, but so is a supposed 15% discount. Final total: 93k. MSRP on two different Sport 200s I saw last weekend: 98k.

As far as Tige, yes they came up with a good plan, but your numbers are off. You are not going to get an R20 for anywhere near 40k. I had one well optioned coming to me directly from the factory (great discount), and the total before taxes was just under 50k.

In my eyes, these companies are learning the market has high demand for an entry level boat; so much demand that they can raise the price on entry level boats. Look at Axis. Two years ago Axis had boats for 39.9k. Good luck finding an '11 for that, and now I hear prices increase 4-6% for '12. At some point, this bubble is going to burst, and I will have zero remorse for any of these companies.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       07-16-2011, 6:27 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
I would love to see a company come out with a 20, 21.5 and 23 foot boat that have built in ballast plus plug and play, a standard tower, analog gauges, PP, simple wrap around interior and a pcm engine.
You just described MB Sports (minus the 20 footer).

Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
I think at some point the market may shift back this way. I am not saying the ultra luxury ones won't exist but that the price point reliable boats may become a lot more popular.
It's happening already...

* In California MB outsold every other inboard boat except Malibu in 2010.
* In Portland, the MC dealer picked up MB just one year ago. Today they sell two MB's for every one MC.
* I don't know tons about Axis, but I am seeing more and more of them purchased on the pages of WakeWorld. :-)

Last edited by ixfe; 07-16-2011 at 6:33 AM.

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