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Old    Travis Q (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       07-07-2011, 11:30 AM Reply   
After exhausting quite a few weeks trying to figure out the best way to power three pair of Bullet HP770's, I figured I would ask everybody at once.

What I have now is two pair of 770's on my tower (which are underpowered) so rather than just re-amping the existing four speaks I decided to grab another pair from Bullet (Jamie is awesome to deal with by the way), just to raise the bar even further. Now the problem is what amp(s) is going to run three pair and how should they be ran??? The next problem is room, I currenly have all four of my existing amps built in under the dash and really don't have a ton of room to add three new amps (I thought about running 3 SYN-4's, but with all the room they would take and the serious battery draw running three more amps I decided against this).

Here is what I have ruled out (I think anyway)

3 - Syn 4's - too much draw - too much space
2 - JL HD750.1's running the speaks in series of three - too high Ohms since mono block amps
1 - JL HD1200.1 - not a full range amp only mid-range amp
1- Mosconi AS300.2 - Really can't find anybody who has ran this amp in a boat to see its durability or how it performs


Any help is appreciated . . . . . . . . . .
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       07-07-2011, 11:38 AM Reply   
Lots of people run an exile harpoon to six tower speakers with success and without issue.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       07-07-2011, 12:16 PM Reply   
The Harpoon is an excellent choice and probably the way I'd go but I thought I'd throw out another option. The Boston Acoustic GT 2300 runs 1400 watts (233 per speaker) bridged at 2ohms so it can handle 3 4ohm Bullets (1.333 ohms) on each channel. I have a Boston Acoustic GT-28 (the 2300's predicessor) and really have loved it. That said the reason I'd likely go with a Harpoon is the warranty that is offered from Exile, the fact that it is a marine amp helps and the excellent customer service that they offer. Oh and as mentioned by Nu Bu, its been put to practice and worked. I'd certainly put a fan on either of them if you were to go this route.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       07-07-2011, 12:16 PM Reply   
I don't see why two JL HD 750s or one HD 1200 wouldn't work? If the HD 750 will power two pair of speakers (4 total) it will certainly power 3 speakers. For the 1200.1, why couldn't you wire each pair in series (8ohm load) and then connect the three series-ed pairs in parallel for a 2.66 ohm load?
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       07-07-2011, 12:46 PM Reply   
What about 2 Syn 2's?
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       07-07-2011, 12:59 PM Reply   
I thought I saw David post about the 1200.1 being full range so it could run tower speakers? Am I dreaming?
Old    Travis Q (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       07-07-2011, 1:02 PM Reply   
Shawndoggy ~ A test has been done with the HD1200 with 4 770's and since it is not a full range amp - it really doesn't work well pushing HLCD's. Were the 4 HLCD's powered by the 750.1 JL ran in series? Wouldn't that push the ohm load up to 12 running three in series to one HD750.1?

I didn't think about running the SYN2's @ 4ohm and 700x1, but wouldn't I run into the same issue as mentioned above?
Old    Mike (fozz)      Join Date: Apr 2011       07-07-2011, 1:06 PM Reply   
Check out ZED amps... Marc from Liquid Acoustics sells a marine version of them. I'm using one for my tower speakers and it's amazing. It's super efficient which makes it really easy on my battery bank and alternator and it's LOUD and CLEAN. They make huge power too. Send Marc an email and he'll be able to come up with the best amp for you. I'm amazed at how good the sound quality is and how efficient this amp is. I'm 110% satisfied with it.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       07-07-2011, 1:13 PM Reply   
Quote:
Were the 4 HLCD's powered by the 750.1 JL ran in series? Wouldn't that push the ohm load up to 12 running three in series to one HD750.1?
If you run 4 4ohms in parallel to a monoblock you'll be at 1 Ohm so if the JL is 1 ohm stable you're fine. I believe SD was talking about doing three pairs seriesed together then paralleling them back in so it would it would be 8, 8, 8 for a 2.6 ohm load on the amp.
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       07-07-2011, 1:17 PM Reply   
Run 4 speakers on a syn 2 and run the other 2 speakers of another Syn2.

Each speaker get's 180 watts. One amp sees a 2 ohm load and the other see's a 4ohm load.

If it was me - I'd sell that other 5 and 6 speaker - upgrade the amps and add a battery
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       07-07-2011, 1:28 PM Reply   
We tested the HD1200/1 which is a midrange rather than fullrange amplifier. It is down less than 1 dB at 8kHz and is pretty much done above 14 kHz. Most adults who have had exposure to loud music will not hear much above 14 kHz. Listening to music while riding is like being in a crowded restaurant. You couldn't possibly tell the difference if the high end was rolling off to the degree described. However, in a near perfect listening room we could hear a difference and had to conclude that the HD1200/1 is not the ticket if you do more critical listening at rest, near field and in a quiet situation.
An excellent option would be two JL Audio HD600/4s if you have a role in the boat for two of the open channels. You could bridge one into two channels and run four speakers in series and still produce full power. The other half amplifier would run stereo to two tower speakers. You would have an identical 150 watts minimum to all six speakers. This would require only a six conductor tower harness. There is a stacking kit that will minimize the footprint to a single small amplifier. Its strictly regulated so the power doesn't fall off as voltage drops which makes this amplifier perform larger than its specs in comparison to unregulated amplifiers. It has twin power supplies so the impedance load of two in-boat channels will not bias the voltage supply of the other channels in consideration of the fact that its strictly regulated on both the supply and output sides. Its 60 percent more efficient than an AB choice and even far more efficient given that it would be operating at the equivalent of 4-ohms on all channels rather than 1.33 ohms. No thermal issues as it wastes only a fourth of the supply power converted to heat in an AB amplifier. Distortion at 4-ohms will be lower and damping will be higher.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       07-07-2011, 1:35 PM Reply   
TQ -- like Brett I'm just going off of David saying that the 1200.1 would work. I have no personal experience with that amp.

I like Murphy's idea of two syn2's (or go "cheap" and get two arc ks300.2's)

The ZED Leviathan II will do 150w x 6 @ 4ohms. http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/s...amplifier.html

Group buy pricing on the zed here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...group-buy.html (this actually looks like the cheapest route where you aren't running the amp at some crazy low impedence either). Zed also claims to be using fully regulated power supplies so no advantage to JL there.

No experience with this amp either, but I sure like the specs per dollar.

Last edited by shawndoggy; 07-07-2011 at 1:44 PM.
Old    Brian (brianinpdx)      Join Date: Aug 2009       07-07-2011, 2:14 PM Reply   
MotoGod -

If your in NorCal, go see Liquid Trends either in San Jose or Fairfield. They both have demo boats with Harpoon amplifiers powering the tower setups. I think the Fairfield location just finished a tower with 3 pair XM9's tower all running off the Harpoon and it sounds WOW.

Vince Dinateli's MB Tomcat,

Jeff Walkers Supreme,

Josh Twelker's Axis

Are among a few very visible guys on the Delta running the Exile Hybrid setup. Theses boats are all shockingly good sounding. There's video's on here with water footage. The Harpoon is the only amplifier in the marine market (that I'm aware of) that utilizes 3 stage triple Darlington ouputs and has built in throttle box adjustment. A nice feature for HLCD's speakers.

Shoot me a pm if you need any more info.

-Brian
Exile Audio
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       07-07-2011, 2:33 PM Reply   
Here is a question for the audio guru's. What is going to sound better and be louder?

2 pairs of HP770's overpowered with ~300 watts a speaker or 3 pairs of HP770's receiving 167 watts a speaker?

Just using his brand of speakers and the JL HD amps what would be a better setup?

2 pairs of HP770's with 2 HD750.1's or 3 pairs of HP770's with a single HD1200.1? In this case the 4 speaker setu pgets 375 watts a speaker and the 6 speaker setup gets 200 watts a speaker.
Old    Brian (brianinpdx)      Join Date: Aug 2009       07-07-2011, 2:54 PM Reply   
Brett - people can debate the details until the cows come home. There is really a very short answer for this when it comes to perceived loudness.

CONE AREA RULES.

** having more drivers on the tower even with less power will be perceived to be louder. Regardless of the brand selected.

-Brian
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       07-07-2011, 3:18 PM Reply   
Brett,
Its not entirely cut and dry. Once you approach the speaker's top end power range several things begin to happen.
First, there is speaker dynamic compression when the voice coil begins to travel out of the most intense portion of the motor/magnet structure, you are increasingly fighting inertia with longer excursions, the spider and surround behave differently as they are stretched farther resulting in more mechanical resistance, you incur more cone break-up and distortion at higher levels, the compression horn driver and passive crossover components begin to saturate at higher levels and as the voice coil gets hotter the impedance increases resulting in less power. So there is no magic 'plus 3 dB' increase as you continue to double the power to the speakers past a point.
Likewise with the amplifier, the voltage sags and the efficiency is reduced as you lower the impedance, the power bandwidth narrows as you increase the power. There is no theoretical doubling of power as you halve the resistance as Ohm's Law suggests because the supply is not unlimited.
Also, it will take roughly a 33 percent increase in power to obtain a 1 dB increase which is the smallest increment that the human auditory system can discern under optimum conditions. A five mph breeze and 80 dB of ambient noise will certainly make an audible difference more challenging.
Take your balance control from far left to center. This constitutes a 3 dB increase which you will find fairly modest perception wise and requires that you double your amplifier power in a perfect scenerio.
I would put my money on the scenerio where both the speakers and amplification are operating conservatively, I'm enjoying higher efficiency and within an optimum impedance load for my amplifier.
Like Brian said, Its going to be difficult to overcome more speaker surface area by any other means.

David
Earmark Marine

Last edited by david_e_m; 07-07-2011 at 3:21 PM.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       07-07-2011, 3:37 PM Reply   
I guess I just see the guys with the biggest/nicely done stereo's seem to have 2 or 3 pairs of tower speakers with huge power going to them. I have heard guys running 500 watts to a Pro80. Is the SQ better because you can leave the gain way down where there isn't as much distortion or something? As you can tell I really don't know how amplifiers work.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       07-07-2011, 4:43 PM Reply   
Brett,
That's true to a degree. But, sometimes we as dealers are privy to things getting torn up that most never hear about publicly as people don't like to advertise those mistakes.
Personally, I know how to treat and protect my equipment and have zero tolerance for distortion so I could run double the rated power of a speaker and never allow the speakers to see a clipped or compressed signal. And, I would never have a failure.
While peak power will hardly tickle the thermal capacity of a speaker, too much continuous or compressed power will definitely tax a speaker in the worst way.
I would appreciate the peak power for the instant transients, contrast and clarity that it provides but would never approach the continuous power.
Very poor recordings might have 10 dB of dynamic range which is a little more than a ten times inherent power multipier. A very good recording could have over 20 dB of dynamic range which could easily be a 1 to 50 power ratio. If you are already reaching 10 watts for the background passages to overcome the ambient environmental noise then the peaks could represent 500 watts instantanious power.
Chasing the perception of overall volume is different. It will take a 10 dB increase and ten times the power to create the perception of doubling the volume. That's easy to do from 1 to 10 watts and from 10 to 100 watts but is fleeting from several hundred watts and above. Its just nice to have the reserves so you are less likely to expose the power limitations.
With twice the power you can double a speakers excursion for a 3 db increase. Imagine having to double the speaker's excursion over and over to get a 10 dB increase and the problems that creates.
That may explain why its so much easier to get more output by doubling the power into double the surface area. Again, that which operates more conservatively usually sounds better whether its the speakers or amplification.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       07-07-2011, 4:50 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
I guess I just see the guys with the biggest/nicely done stereo's seem to have 2 or 3 pairs of tower speakers with huge power going to them. I have heard guys running 500 watts to a Pro80. Is the SQ better because you can leave the gain way down where there isn't as much distortion or something? As you can tell I really don't know how amplifiers work.
Lots of speakers and big power is the best of both worlds. Never thought I would see pro 80 and SQ used in the same sentence.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       07-07-2011, 6:08 PM Reply   
I wouldn't argue with that but the Pro80s are old news now. We have the Wetsounds Rev8s and Rev10s where sound quality is definitely a description that fits.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       07-07-2011, 8:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by david_e_m View Post
I wouldn't argue with that but the Pro80s are old news now. We have the Wetsounds Rev8s and Rev10s where sound quality is definitely a description that fits.

David
Earmark Marine
Funny that people are finally starting to admit that now about the 60's and 80's, guess its ok to now.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       07-08-2011, 8:20 AM Reply   
You have to credit the Wetsounds Pro60 and Pro80 with changing the tower speaker market more so than any other product. They led the pack for a very long time even with flaws intact. I have always been very vocal about my dissatisfaction with any 6.5" HLCD regardles of brand. And, I fully supported HollowPoint discontinuing their 6.5" HLCD offering. 6.5" HLCDs simply do not have the midbass strength to keep pace with the aggressive horn tweeter. The Kicker 6.5" HLCD with component style midbass drivers (versus proaxial style) and when you double up the midbass drivers, would be my exception. As for the Pro80, its widely acknowledged that this has been one of the most efficient and loudest HLCDs going. Anything that was louder took CONSIDERABLY more power to do so. Certainly the Pro80 had an aggressive in-your-face treble that sort of dominated its perception. That came with the territory if you wanted maximum projection and maximum output. I don't think any of this has been a secret...at least on this forum.
Consider that when you moderate the peaks and remove the more erratic aspects of a speaker you normally lose considerable output, or at least peak output. I wouldn't under-estimate the enginnering feat involved in what the new Rev8s and 10s have accomplished. More midbass extension, a much smoother response and still an insanely loud presence. In the world of speaker design those are generally contradictory objectives. Hats off to a job well done.
Now that we have new and better offerings with the Bullet HollowPoint 770 NEO, Exile XM9 plus the Wetsounds Rev8 and Rev10, why relish in the past.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       07-08-2011, 9:32 AM Reply   
The future is bright, no pun intended .

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