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Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-01-2011, 8:16 AM Reply   
I'm from the Government and I'm here to help you.

http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/June/reports.asp
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       06-01-2011, 11:02 AM Reply   
This was my response (as invited by the article):

"This does not affect me YET as I have a 20.5’ boat. However, further expansion of the law is obviously coming as exemplified by the current move to expand. Not that I don’t care about the 71 lives estimated to be saved each year, however this continues the progression of too much government intrusion into citizen’s lives. I’m sure a few thousand lives could be saved if helmets were mandatory when driving cars too. When do we stop? Of the 82 million that already participate in boating annually, the death rate is now only 0.0009%. So the Coast Guard inconveniences millions of people through both cost and hassle to improve on that figure?"
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       06-01-2011, 11:07 AM Reply   
wow! good find. Everyone should voice their opinion, BoatUS could be influential.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       06-01-2011, 12:48 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottog1979 View Post
When do we stop? Of the 82 million that already participate in boating annually, the death rate is now only 0.0009%. So the Coast Guard inconveniences millions of people through both cost and hassle to improve on that figure?"
No, no, you're got it all wrong. This is about an easily identifiable violation that is grounds for a more thorough inspection and boarding of any watercraft. Easy taxes they can collect, and get more fines and revenue from other violations they find when the board you, harass you, breathalyze you, etc.

No one will stand up to this because we are a nation of sheep. The neocons and the socialists both are fighting for the same thing and no one will stand up because they'll both string you up and hang you out to dry as soon as you defy their "Think of the children" line.
Old    Ben Wilcox (benjaminp)      Join Date: Nov 2008       06-01-2011, 1:31 PM Reply   
Despite the argument that 736 people died, I agree with you guys. This is too much. Children and people being towed, sure, thats fair, they're in a more risky situation. But adults in the boat? Too much. Especially based on the percentage stated above.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       06-01-2011, 1:48 PM Reply   
This law is coming, even for larger boats. Its just a matter of time. They have already passed a law here that doesn't allow you to stow life jackets. They have to be "readily accessable." Which means on the floor, or on your body. A friend got a ticket last summer for it. I couldn't believe it.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-01-2011, 2:37 PM Reply   
Hope this doesnt actually happen. Why not just outlaw alcohol...? thats typically the reason people get killed at the lake..
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       06-01-2011, 2:41 PM Reply   
Cory,

Your excellent point is well taken. Why don't you, and everyone else here, respond to the article so that Boat US has some feedback to lobby with.

Please!
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-01-2011, 9:15 PM Reply   
Just responded
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-02-2011, 6:59 AM Reply   
I also recently read an article that life jackets will be required on all lakes under the Corp of Engineers control. If I remember correctly that included swimming from an anchored boat. Soon we will all be living in rubber rooms.

You make a valid point Cory and I'll add the, "What is the value of a human life"? That definitely depends on what country does the valuation or in the US who has the more effective attorney.

I bet 95% of all comments will start with, "it's terrible to loose any life and my heart goes out to those that loose somebody, but....."
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-02-2011, 7:06 AM Reply   
Should it be any shocker that most boating deaths are a result of drowning. I bet its true of surfing and scuba diving as well.

I thought bicycling deaths would show that most deaths were caused by obesity, cancer or heart attacks. I was wrong, it's not wearing a helmet!
Old    Karl De Looff (boarditup)      Join Date: Jan 2004       06-02-2011, 8:11 AM Reply   
You cannot really quantify a human life. If you look at nuclear regulations, each life costs about $4billion. If you look at highway, it is under $1million. The real question is perceived risk. We are fine with familiar risks, and uncomfortable with unfamiliar risks. So, you sleep with a pillow, eat raw foods, drive on public roads, a touch handrails - all risks that have caused deaths. The government has a role in risks that we cannot control or public risks, but regulating personal risks have massive unintended consequences and must have a compelling public impact.
Old    mojo            06-02-2011, 8:18 AM Reply   
Good luck. Its called states rights. Same reason some states require boat license or trailer registration. Yet another overstep of the federal government.Get your guns, know your rights, and stand up for yourselves.

Last edited by mojo; 06-02-2011 at 8:21 AM.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       06-06-2011, 5:43 AM Reply   
No one has given any concrete info on the corps lake life jacket thing. This law concerns me as I am considering buying property on a corps lake as an investment/vacation home and possibly to relocate and live in eventually. I am concerned with how such a law would affect property values and desirability of the lake. I know that alone would be enough for me to rule out any lakes with mandatory life vests for all while underway or swimming from my list of placed I would buy. So far this is all I've found online:

http://www.mvk.usace.army.mil/lakes/...eases&r=0809-2
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-06-2011, 8:20 AM Reply   
I wonder how may Corp of Engineers and water cops wear life jackets when on their own boats. Who pushes these regulations? It has to be a bean counter pushing numbers or someone in an office that is not an outdoor enthusiast.
Old    Kat Laird (wakekat15)      Join Date: Jul 2005       06-06-2011, 8:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by srock View Post
I wonder how may Corp of Engineers and water cops wear life jackets when on their own boats. Who pushes these regulations? It has to be a bean counter pushing numbers or someone in an office that is not an outdoor enthusiast.
Even the jackets that many of the lake patrol officers wear are the pull cord type. I got a warning from a sheriff for wearing a NCGA jacket (which I appreciated only getting a warning). I asked him what the concern was with a NCGA...his response was that if you are knocked unconscious, you will sink. I asked him about his pull cord jacket and how that works if you are unconscious and he was speechless. I'm not saying I shouldn't wear a CGA jacket at all times....it's just hypocritical to have these examples flaunted in our face.
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-06-2011, 8:59 AM Reply   
Not while on duty but while out with the wife and kids. Do you picture everyone swimming off the pontoon with jackets on or better yet from shore or their dock?
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-06-2011, 9:02 AM Reply   
In Florida the beaches are covered with thousands if not millions of people every weekend. Lets strap vests on them as well. I can just picture the new world of tan lines we will be seeing.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       06-06-2011, 10:14 AM Reply   
Kat, not trying to take up for the cop, but most of those types of vests auto-inflate if the cop falls in the water. The pull-cord is in case the vest doesn't inflate.

But, if the automatic function failed and the cop was unconscious, I guess he is screwed.
Old    Jeff D (Jeff)      Join Date: May 2010       06-06-2011, 5:42 PM Reply   
Louisiana passed a law that went into effect this year that says that ALL passengers in a boat boat with tiller steering and an outboard must wear a life jacket when underway. Not sure how they arrived at the conclusion that you're more likely to drown on a boat with a tiller vs. a steering wheel. I assume they're making some assumption about boat size but I've seen 19' boats with 120 HP and a tiller and I've seen 14' boats with 20 HP and a steering wheel:

Quote:
All persons onboard a Class A motorboat which is being propelled by a hand tiller outboard motor shall be required to wear a USCG approved Type I, II, III, or V personal flotation device while the motorboat is underway. A handtiller outboard is described as an outboard motor that has a tiller or steering arm attached to the outboard motor to facilitate steering and does not have any mechanical assist device which is rigidly attached to the boat and used in steering the vessel, including but not limited to mechanical, hydraulic, or electronic control systems. Hand tiller outboard motor shall not mean any type of electronic trolling motor.
Old    WakePowell Chris (epic1)      Join Date: Oct 2006       06-06-2011, 6:59 PM Reply   
The neocon-socialist comment from cory was righ on. Working at a public lake has given me a unique perspective on this. THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE DEATHS ON WATER. There are too many idiots on the water. the herd needs thinning. Too bad idiots often take good boaters to the hospital or morgue with them.
Old    WakePowell Chris (epic1)      Join Date: Oct 2006       06-06-2011, 7:03 PM Reply   
pull cord vests have a cmall co2 charge that inflates if not pulled. That cop was an idiot if he did not know how HIS saftey equipment works when warning for others safety equipment
Old    Jeff D (Jeff)      Join Date: May 2010       06-06-2011, 7:23 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1 View Post
pull cord vests have a cmall co2 charge that inflates if not pulled. That cop was an idiot if he did not know how HIS saftey equipment works when warning for others safety equipment
These types of manually activated inflatable vests never really made sense to me especially for inland use. They seem almost pointless. I can't imagine that many scenarios where they would save your life where other means would have failed. The only scenario I can think of where it would work well would be where you're thrown from the boat either offshore or in a large lake, nobody in the boat notices or you're by yourself, you remain conscious and the boat continues with all of its contents leaving you in open water until help arrives.

In any scenario where the boat sinks and you remain conscious then all of the floating crap will come to the surface and you can grab onto something and wait it out or just swim to shore in an inland small lake/river situation. The inflatable vest would probably just be convenient in these situations. And, if you can't swim you either a) shouldn't be on a boat or b) should be wearing a real life vest at all times on the boat.

In any scenario where you're unconscious then you're going to drown with one of these on so you just wore it for nothing. That is unless it's the automatic inflation mechanism type that inflates when water touches the sensor but I wouldn't want to trust that anyway especially since most are made in China.

If maximum comfort is the only issue I'd rather wear a comp (non USCG) vest all of the time that will provide more protection in an unconscious state with almost 0 chance of mechanical failure than one of these stupid USCG approved inflatables. I'm not advocating the use of comp vests in an unsupervised non-competition scenario I'm just making a comparison.
Old    Tim Jeckyll (doc1)      Join Date: May 2011       06-06-2011, 8:41 PM Reply   
Ya, will one of those blow up vests even hold up a 260 pound cop with Boots on and full clothes, belt etc on?
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-07-2011, 7:05 AM Reply   
Does anyone know, do those how enforce the law and their families wear vests while off duty and on the water? I'm really curious.
Old    Kat Laird (wakekat15)      Join Date: Jul 2005       06-07-2011, 8:02 AM Reply   
Yes, I was wondering the same thing about if the vest could float him (easily 240 lbs) plus in full gear, bullet proof vest, gun belt, extra clips etc.....

@ Chris/Jeremy....guess I shouldn't have left out that part of the conversation. Of course, the officer knew how the jacket was supposed to work. I followed up with what if it doesn't? Parachutes are supposed to open too, but that doesn't always happen which is why people have a back up. Of course, that doesn't help them either if they are unconscious! :-)
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       06-08-2011, 7:44 AM Reply   
Remember all that gear and the person gets a lot lighter when submerged in water.
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       06-15-2011, 9:35 AM Reply   
A very interesting statistic:

Quote:
Boating Activity: While the USCG statistical report does not break out boating fatalities by primary activity (except for skiing), it is clear from looking over the reports that over 90% of all of the open motorboats and rowboat fatalities involved boats used for fishing, as opposed to sportboats, skiboats or other types of open motorboats primarily used for other purposes.
http://www.boattest.com/resources/vi...px?newsid=4532

I'm guessing that more "waters ports" boaters anticipate and are better at swimming than fishermen, many of whom never anticipate swimming while boating.
Old    Dave (moman)      Join Date: Feb 2006       06-18-2011, 2:34 PM Reply   
Here's one of the lakes in CA that we "use" to go to a lot. I and others wrote the corp letters of protest. Fell on deff ears. These "tests" will become laws if you don't write your congressman and senators. State and Federal. This is not about saving lives. It is about the government circumventing your constitutional rights by using an agency that is not directly accountable to the people. Have you heard of soft tyranny. This is government tyranny. Lay down and you will loose your right to enjoy the water the way you want to. This rule is now in affect at Pine Flat.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf NewsRelease_PineFlatStudy_31AUG10.pdf (50.7 KB, 69 views)
Old    Jeffrey Blanchard (eternalshadow)      Join Date: Nov 2001       06-18-2011, 3:41 PM Reply   
The movie Judge Dread... when they thaw him in the future and everything is illegal. You're ticketed instantly for cursing etc...

It sure feels like it's going this way.

They're already talking about using GPS technology to give out speeding tickets.

I really dislike the way things are moving.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-18-2011, 10:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottog1979 View Post
A very interesting statistic:


http://www.boattest.com/resources/vi...px?newsid=4532

I'm guessing that more "waters ports" boaters anticipate and are better at swimming than fishermen, many of whom never anticipate swimming while boating.
good read, wish it explained a little more though. I know a lot of it is common sense, but its nice to read something and know your doing everything you can to be safe. Even smart people need the simple things layed out for them sometimes
really makes me wonder how easy it is to capsize one of our boats. Especially when Im running a serious amount of weight surfing.
Old    Dave Diaz (wakebrdr94)      Join Date: Jul 2010       06-18-2011, 11:12 PM Reply   
Laws like this are designed to protect the stupid. Remeber growing up riding your bike without a helmet? it's those few who couldn't ride a bike and got hurt that caused the helmet law. I remember flying around the back seat with no seatbelt, and yet, here we are, all fine. a couple rednecks who can't swim and decide to fish, have a few too many, fall in the river, end of that story.... How many people do we see doing stupid things on boats like ours??? Mommy and daddy buy their kid a boat, we see them acting like a fool behind the wheel, we've all shaken our heads at this. Blame the stupid for this,

Last edited by wakebrdr94; 06-18-2011 at 11:15 PM. Reason: did not finish typing
Old    Jeigh Krupp (balr54)      Join Date: May 2004       06-20-2011, 5:45 PM Reply   
I really don't like the way society is going. This may be a little bit more off the subject at hand and a little more vague, however it still applies. With the government stepping in with new "health" regulations, more pampering, it is turning this nation into a bunch of wusses. I rode my bike while growing up, crashed, took my licks, tried not to do it again. However, I knew the risk of going over the "sweet jump" i had just built and dealt with the ramifications of it. I learned a lesson, but also got back up and and did it again. Now, it sometimes suprises me to see a kid without training wheels before they are 18. All of this crap in sports growing up, "everybody is a winner" and lets not keep score. Come on, that is BS. I learned my hard work ethic in from two things, growing up on a farm and having to help my dad in all aspects of that, and practicing, pushing, and working to be the best basketball/football/whatever sport it was at the time. All of this pampering is doing exactly that, pampering and softening us up. Ridiculus! Then to go even furthur, this pampering is carrying over to the work ethic and attitiude of kids. I have several friends who are teachers and I have personally working with kids in coaching aspects. They are so lacking in respect and reeking with laziness that it makes me sick! I just feel the values are so messed up in this country now! End usless rant! Side note: I am making generalizations, I am not saying every kid is like this. I know some great kids who are being raised right and who work their butts off. I just think overall, we should be worried about our future generations. (Sorry to get so off subject!)
Old    Dave Diaz (wakebrdr94)      Join Date: Jul 2010       06-20-2011, 7:52 PM Reply   
^ So with you, but I you need to mention the parents in that argument, It is definitely a learned behavior. Not every kid is an all star, your kid didn't make the team because he wasn't good enough, not because the coach doesn't like you. Chalk this up to those parents who call the school because their kid did not receive a passing grade, now it will hinder their chances of getting in a good school, and they will sue if the school does not reverse the grade. Same people coming up with these laws are the same people making excuses for their kids. Idiot overloads the boat, and a jury of idiots finds MC liable. A societal mentality of "if not my fault." You really want to crack down, put more patrol on the water. yeah, yeah, blast me if you want for that, but I've never been stop by patrol in the 17 years of being on the water. They are looking for "that guy", if you don't like it, don't be "that guy". Let them send out more patrol, get rid of people that shouldn't be operating a boat anyway, and move on.

Or we could go the easy route, just ask everyone before they launch the boat "where are the brakes located?" anyone who answers wrong or thinks about it has their boat taken away".....

Sorry for the rant, but stupid people ruin it for all of us
Old    Nick Schrein (wakeboardern1)      Join Date: Aug 2007       06-20-2011, 8:26 PM Reply   
Wow, first you place a large portion of the blame of this on the kids whose parents bought a boat essentially for them (I'm one of them, and so are the vast majority of my friends I ride with, all of whom are primarily the most respectful drivers I have ever seen on the lake, thanks for perpetuating a stereotype. Yeah they exist and yeah they're bad, but they're far from the majority) and then you come up with that BS about the wasn't good enough thing. If you have a fair coach, that's completely true. But all throughout little league baseball, if your coach was from the county, and you were from the lake, you didn't play, because the county people hated the lake people. In high school sports, we had some players who really weren't good on first and second string, because their parents did a lot of donating. Politics play a massive role in high school and lower sports.

I generally agree with you, but I had to point out that you're making some statements that aren't always the truth. Which by the way, I've had more dumbass parents with their kids on the boat cut me off when I have a rider out or do doughnuts not 40 feet form me on their jetski than dumbass kids with rich parents. All of my friends and I have been driving boats since we were 10 or 11 years old and our parents bought us this stuff with the knowledge that we are not the dumbasses that you see out on the lake so frequently. God that stereotype pisses me off. Sorry I'm not 35 with a real job so I can't buy my own boat. Sorry my parents busted their asses so that they could support me in something that I care deeply about.
Old    Dave Diaz (wakebrdr94)      Join Date: Jul 2010       06-20-2011, 10:46 PM Reply   
dude, if you don't fit the stereotype, you have nothing to worry about. But you are missing the point, and maybe I worded it wrong, but I place blame on the parents. Parents at some point stopped teaching kids about accountability. Everyone blames someone else for their misfortune. I had a friends mother back in HS complain to the principle about her daughter not passing a class because the teacher thought "she was too pretty" And yes there are scum bag coaches that cave to the politics of it all, but generally if you are good, you will play. Coaches like to win too. and yes there are "adults" who have no business owning a boat, let alone being on the water, and these same morons will teach their kids to be morons. As a hiring manager, you should see the amount of parents that come in asking if we are hiring because their kid needs a job. Shouldn't their kids be looking for a job on their own? And i kid you not about the amount of people who cannot read or write properly to just fill out a job application. Upbringing plays a big role in all of this. Every kid getting a trophy mentality is creating a sense of entitlement. People need to be held accountable for their stupidity. spill coffee on myself, lawsuit. I overload the boat, it sinks, lawsuit. You said it yourself, you have those same idiots cutting you off and doing doughnuts not far from you. Obviously you do not fit the stereotype, so don't take it to heart. I don't take it personal when you say dumbass parents with their kids cut you off, because I know I am not one of them. I'm glad your parents taught you responsibility on the water, And I'm glad they support you, just appreciate it, a lot of kids don't (and I say kid for lack of a better word) Don't take this personally, because it is not directed at you, but at "that guy" . If you sit a poker table and can't spot the sucker in the first 5 minutes, you are the sucker. same goes for the guy on the water causing problems and thinks everything is kosher.

And don't worry, one day you will be 35, and when you are, take a look and the generation below you if the trend continues in the same direction it is heading now

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