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Old    SamIngram            04-05-2011, 6:40 PM Reply   
I would love to hear what wake77, fly135, and others think about Rand Paul's Fiscal Year 2012 Budget.

It seems like a no brainer to me, I'm all for it. I figure that they might have some good food for thought though, their viewpoint is always interesting.

Some of the information in it is just amazing to me!
Old    SamIngram            04-06-2011, 9:52 AM Reply   
Just read the individual sections, not the budget part. The narrative is great.
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Old    Toad Froggy (ointment)      Join Date: Jun 2008       04-06-2011, 10:56 AM Reply   
I didn’t read the link, so it is my fault if I am miss the point of the original post. So I am only commenting on Sam’s thread.

I have great fear with all these education cuts that it is going to have a negative impact to the public school system. I just don’t see how my current district is going to be able to provide the same quality of education today with fewer resources tomorrow.

It bothers me even more that I purposely moved to a school district with higher taxes to gain quality public education and those taxes are now distributed by the state. So in my opinion if the state is going to control the distribution of money then school taxes should be a flat rate across the board.

I didn’t want to put my child in private school, but at this rate I think that maybe my only option if I want to provide the best educational format I can.

I may be a little biased due to my wife being a teacher, but I absolutely agree money is not the only solution and the budget process should be scrutinized. I do however think the biggest downfall of our education system is the public treats them as daycare centers and expect them to raise our children. Until parents get involved with their kids and inspire them to want to learn, then no matter how much money you throw to these organizations the result will be same.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-06-2011, 11:25 AM Reply   
I can't really comment on the whole publication at this time because it's a long read. But I definitely agree with cutting the govt across the board. Agencies like FEMA, FDA, and CDC are bloated and even oppressive to the freedom of the American public. Too much govt oppresion in the name of protecting us from problems that don't exist. McCain is a proponent of this oppression and is advocating expanded govt control by the FDA over nutritional supplements.

I also believe we should leave both Iraq and Afghanistan now, not later. The defense budget should get huge cuts. There is a far better use of money in this country than pouring it into defense, which is over funded. Both govt and private industry is wasteful. Govt subsidies to private industry are mostly a means to enhance personal wealth to an influentual few.

The SS trust funded has been raided by the Govt for years leaving worthless IOU's in it's place. The govt debt to the SS trust fund is not recognized or reflected in the published numbers of official govt debt. And the debt to the trust fund is not legally protected against default. I resent the notion that SS is an entitlement, just as I would resent it if someone called my 401k or IRA an entitlement.

WRT medicare/medicaid and Obamacare... if the govt wanted to completely kill these programs and all tax related deductions for health insurance I would be for it. This might seem counter to my support for Obamacare, it isn't. I'm for turning conventional medicine on it's head. We pay 2-3x for the same substandard care the rest of the developed world gets. Healthcare is a financial disaster and the industry has our representatives in it's pocket. I would like nothing better than to see all medicine "defunded", and return to seeing people pay out of pocket and force healthcare industry reverts back to a competitive environment works for it's customers.
Old    SamIngram            04-06-2011, 11:44 AM Reply   
Since John brought up defense, here is that section.
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Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       04-06-2011, 11:52 AM Reply   
Disagree with his education views, agree entirely on his military spending views.
Old    SamIngram            04-06-2011, 12:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_mn View Post
Disagree with his education views, agree entirely on his military spending views.
How and why? Did you look at the chart? Do you think Reagan and Hayek were wrong? Don't you think that the states or even the individual counties should be able to determine what and how the kids are taught? Wouldn't that promote competition and then improvement? What do you disagree with? Shouldn't states have the ability to develop their own curriculum? Couldn't we compete with other countries better?

Here in AZ, Craig Barrett of Intel, said if Intel were starting a new, Arizona likely wouldn't be in the running for its business.

"I hate to say it, but I think Arizona would not be in the top 10 locales to make that investment," he said.

Judy Wood, president of Contact One Call Center Inc., said she was concerned about K-12 education. Arizona schools traditionally rank low in both funding and test scores. Wood said she hires for a lot of entry-level jobs and has found that students are lacking in basic skills.

Arizona Education

Basically, my summation of the entire narrative of the budget is; government bureaucracy does nothing to improve anything, it just makes things worse. Regulation by the federal government is not the answer, when the states better know their needs.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-06-2011, 12:59 PM Reply   
I don't think Reagan is a good source of information regarding education. And the quote by Hayek seems to address the philosophy of indoctrination more than how to achieve a quality educational system. I don't really see that the fed govt has that much of an influence in local education. It's not a problem that seems to stand out as an important issue. School curriculum is on the bottom of my "worry" list. IMO, it's more like... "move along, nothing to see here". I really doubt that curriculum is the real issue. And I could certainly see how leaving curriculum to the local community is more likely to end up as a means of indoctrination, especially religious.

Quote:
Basically, my summation of the entire narrative of the budget is; government bureaucracy does nothing to improve anything, it just makes things worse. Regulation by the federal government is not the answer, when the states better know their needs.
Who could argue that bureaucracy improves anything? That doesn't mean that any govt involvement is bad. Just excessive bureaucracy is. And if you use Florida as an example... no the states don't know any better. Although we generally do a better job of keeping taxes low than other states.

Bottom line.. if the people knew anything they could have better govt. But we don't.
Old     (mc30)      Join Date: Mar 2010       04-06-2011, 1:07 PM Reply   
[I agree with the education part. However, it is a bigger problem than just schools. It goes back to society as a whole. Our nation has become very lacking in its ambition to work hard. Far too many people want to live off of others. This is one of many problems facing schools. Kids aren't taught to work hard at home, so they certainly arent going to do so at school. There is no more accountability or discipline for students. It goes back to entitlement. Students are guaranteed a free education by law. Parents feel they should be given that, but parents also feel that they should be the ones making decisions on conporal punishment and whether the workload is too much for their kids. Politicians don't care to look into the problem. The answer is always more money. There is a huge amount of waste in education, and it gets larger each and every year. There are way too many jobs being created to solve education problems that do nothing but pay the person that gets the job a large sum of money.
As far a defense, all I can say is wasteful contracts. Alot of private defense firms have made their fortunes in the past 10 years.
Old     (mc30)      Join Date: Mar 2010       04-06-2011, 1:12 PM Reply   
I might also add that one of the major roadblocks to reducing government size is that you usually don't elected without help from wealthy donors. These people are not in the habit of giving money away. They want something in return. This turns into wasteful jobs and pork barrel spending. I guess those in Washington and state wise want to pay the people that got them there, if for no other reason than to stay for another term. Lets face facts. How many of those elected to high level positions actually care about the well being of the common man? Im afraid very very few.
Old    SamIngram            04-06-2011, 1:27 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
And if you use Florida as an example... no the states don't know any better. Although we generally do a better job of keeping taxes low than other states.
.
How is Florida an example? Are they some how exempt from the Board of Education? A better example would be a comparison to private schools.
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       04-06-2011, 1:50 PM Reply   
Rand's proposal is the only logical approach that has been presented to the US Congress thus far. If people don't like, thats fine, but you better step up with a plan that is serious about reducing spending. I am proud to have voted for Dr. Rand Paul and to have him as my representative in the US Senate!
Old    SamIngram            04-06-2011, 2:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakecumberland View Post
Rand's proposal is the only logical approach that has been presented to the US Congress thus far. If people don't like, thats fine, but you better step up with a plan that is serious about reducing spending. I am proud to have voted for Dr. Rand Paul and to have him as my representative in the US Senate!
I hope that Ron Paul does not run for president, he has no chance of even getting the nomination. On the other hand I think that Rand Paul can. I would vote for him in a second. I know the apple doesn't fall far from the tree in Rand Paul, but I think he knows how package the message better. I know what people will say, Rand has no experience, but he actually has more than Obama when he ran... I know I don't want a retread RINO like Romney getting the nomination. But then again, I would have rather lost with Barry Goldwater too than have voted for Johnson.
Old    Ron T (wakemetoday)      Join Date: Mar 2006       04-06-2011, 2:26 PM Reply   
The elimination of the programs is unfortunate but necessary. I hate to see the Parks Dept. cut 30% but they can recover some of the cut by raising admission and camping prices. The US definitely needs to stop being the world's police force. Plus, I like the idea of the states being allowed to distribute money--such as food stamps--way too much fraud the way these types of programs are administered. If you're worried about education, I don't see how it can get much worse in some places. Sometimes, starting over is much more effective that trying to repair what is currently in use. Wouldn't it be great if teachers actually had a say in governing classroom behavior as opposed to a liberal administration or judge?
Old    SamIngram            04-06-2011, 2:32 PM Reply   
Regarding parks...
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Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       04-06-2011, 2:47 PM Reply   
Sam, I will have to read it tomorrow evening and get back to you.

I am not sure if Senator Paul has this in there, but why not outlaw any politician from meeting with lobbyists? Basically, make a stipulation that says you will be fined, jailed, and removed from office if you have any dealings with a lobbyist. I think this measure could save billions of dollars each year.
Old    SamIngram            04-06-2011, 3:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
Sam, I will have to read it tomorrow evening and get back to you.

I am not sure if Senator Paul has this in there, but why not outlaw any politician from meeting with lobbyists? Basically, make a stipulation that says you will be fined, jailed, and removed from office if you have any dealings with a lobbyist. I think this measure could save billions of dollars each year.
This was a strong, strong belief of mine also. However, after dating a lobbyist, I gained a lot more understanding of how screwed up the system is and how it works. Unfortunately, without lobbyists many of the important issues would never get the attention they deserve.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       04-06-2011, 4:59 PM Reply   
I did not read the whole thing but read a few sections and so far I like all of what I have read, particularly the Education and Homeland Security parts. I don't believe this is nearly enough though. Many of these government organizations need to be completely eliminated. Overall though, from what I have read so far, I believe his proposal is a good one.
Old    Toad Froggy (ointment)      Join Date: Jun 2008       04-07-2011, 8:17 AM Reply   
lol i dont think all these programs need to be eliminated such as education, but these organizations need to held accountable and and clear cut justification when it comes to the budget. education is the equalizer when your not born rich and trying to move up in the world.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       04-08-2011, 7:15 AM Reply   
As far as education goes, the DoE should be eliminated. Using property and income taxes to pay for school is wrong. Those with children should pay for their children's education, whether it be in public or private schools. At the very least, since that will likely never happen, those who choose to send their children to private schools should get that portion of their property and income taxes refunded so they can use it to pay for private school and however else they see fit. The effect of such a policy would be an incentive to have children (kind of life welfare, only your not taking other people's money but rather keeping your own), as it would amount to a large tax cut for having a child which you enroll in a private school to both get a better education and save significant amounts of money.

Older article, but you'll find many other statistics that show public education across the country is significantly more expensive than private education.
http://www.mackinac.org/1118

Bottom line is people should not be forced to pay for services they are not using, especially when those services are so expensive as public schooling.

This is just one facet of immense government waste.

If you ask me, a law needs to be immediately passed that mandates a balanced budget, or preferably one with a small surplus to pay off our debt now, and eventuallyhave government savings. During times of war (Constitutional, declared war, that is) or extreme natural disaster, the surplus would not be required and surplus funds from previous years could be used do deal with those emergencies.

Just some food for though. I toy around with ideas like this a lot, even though none will ever be adopted. Realistically nothing will change. Just wait, the hard crash is coming.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-08-2011, 8:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadunkle View Post
Bottom line is people should not be forced to pay for services they are not using, especially when those services are so expensive as public schooling.
I would agree with this as long as those same people don't take advantage of the body of knowledge provided to them from those that came before. This could be implemented by creating reservations (like an Indian reservation) where these people could live off the land. They could make their own tools out of sticks and stones (metal if they can find it). Unfortunately if some form of famine came upon them the US govt wouldn't help out. They should be completely dependant upon their own resources.
Old    SamIngram            04-08-2011, 9:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
I would agree with this as long as those same people don't take advantage of the body of knowledge provided to them from those that came before. This could be implemented by creating reservations (like an Indian reservation) where these people could live off the land. They could make their own tools out of sticks and stones (metal if they can find it). Unfortunately if some form of famine came upon them the US govt wouldn't help out. They should be completely dependant upon their own resources.
I would argue that EVERYONE benefits at some level from the public schools that are around them. Businesses like Intel will come to an area based on how the schools are doing. You won't get a job with them unless they come to your state to begin with. Also, people want to live in a place where their kids can get a good education. As a result, many more opportunities, for all, are available when the local school system is excelling.

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