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Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-22-2011, 10:07 AM Reply   
How on earth, in our hi tec world, can this continuously be allowed to happen?? Rag tag desperados racing around in inflatable boats, attacking anything and everything and holding the West to ransom. Didn't we use to hang pirates from the yardarm?? It's ludicrous that this continues to happen.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...hijacking.html
Old    Train (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       02-22-2011, 10:36 AM Reply   
what is ludicrous, is that people continue to cruise through that area unarmed. if I had the kind of money where I could take a cruise on my yacht through this region, you can be damn sure I will have security on board with plenty of weaponry to fight off these "pirates".
Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-22-2011, 11:33 AM Reply   
Insanely there are probably laws against private citizens setting sail armed to the teeth. It is probably illegal. I am pretty sure you cannot pull into a harbour with machine guns on board??And for people to say they should not be there is totally defeatist. The pirates SHOULD NOT BE THERE!! These are people sailing in international waters. It's not like they are heading into Iraq or Afghanistan. A Western coalition should pay to station a warship on the coast with instructions to destroy every pirate boat that leaves the shore. Two weeks of that and this cr@p would soon end.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       02-22-2011, 11:42 AM Reply   
I say go Armed to the teeth. They should have been firing at the pirates boat a couple hundred yards before they reached them.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       02-22-2011, 12:06 PM Reply   
I don't think its defeatist. Its one thing for large tankers that have to use the waters, but for two couples on a yacht, its moronic.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       02-22-2011, 12:07 PM Reply   
and unless you have a cannon, you are not going to fight the pirates off.
Old    Train (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       02-22-2011, 12:10 PM Reply   
I dont see why we should spend more govt money on an area that we dont have to be in. you are taking a huge risk traveling through those waters unprepared. it should not be the responsibility of your govt to protect you if you travel into a hostile enviornment. its not like these couples were taking a wine tour through the marseille region in france and something tragic happened. they were traveling through waters that are well known for piracy. go prepared, or dont go at all.
tanker ships are a whole other story.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       02-22-2011, 12:38 PM Reply   
Unfortunately I think there are laws against arming yourself on your vessel. I've never much looked into it, but read about sailing into Mexico and carrying arms is prohibited.

If I was headed into those waters, rules be damned. I've seen what a AR-15 will do at long range. I'd gladly carry one of those. I'd shoot anything that floated toward me.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-22-2011, 12:42 PM Reply   
The simplist solution is to throw the surviving pirates in the water, shoot a few to get the blood flowing, and film the sharks eating them. Then distribute the video in Somolia.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       02-22-2011, 1:06 PM Reply   
"release when the pirates fired a rocket-propelled grenade from the Quest "

AR 15s do little against rockets, and 13 other people with automatic rifles.
Old    Small Light (stephan)      Join Date: Nov 2002       02-22-2011, 1:08 PM Reply   
For world travelers it is very tough to carry arms or ammunition on a vessel. Each country has a different set of rules and not following the rules can get you in big trouble. If you were to port in Mexico and have arms aboard, you would be arrested, boat seized and have an extended vacation in Mexican jail. Many countries have similar laws.

Some folks have hidden compartments added to their vessels to make sure they can carry their heat. You would think an AR, a 12 gauge and a pistol would cover most of your needs.

Sure would be nice if the military were to secure some yachts and do a little hunting...
Old    J B (bjeremi)      Join Date: Mar 2006       02-22-2011, 1:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Sure would be nice if the military were to secure some yachts and do a little hunting...

Now that is a good idea.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-22-2011, 1:58 PM Reply   
I am 100% against this piracy thing, especially being a veteran of the US Navy, and I think that perhaps a few "undercover" boats may get rid of a few pirates, but there are a thousand more ready to take their place. Again I am not in any capacity supporting the pirates, but to understand I think we need to look at things from their perspective. The main thing is, they live in Somalia. That place makes the worst ghetto in the US look like Club Med. Our poor would be at the top of the income ladder. The chance of earning a decent living there is almost nonexistent. These guys are sucked into this gig by some crime boss that never boards a boat. The pirates are at rock bottom, so what do they have to lose? When you and your family is starving, morals aren't as important.
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-22-2011, 3:04 PM Reply   
In this most recent case I read, "four pirates were killed and 15 were captured".

Why capture 15 pirates? That's an expensive trial(s) and money wasted on keeping them in prison. With no other eyes or proof of what's done, they should do to these pirates what they deserve. If the hostages are killed already, I'd rather see the story say "19 pirates were killed". Regardless of why they've become pirates, these people need to be taken out when possible.

I think the Russians took care of things much better in that other pirate story in the news recently.
Old    J Brewer (wakecumberlandky)      Join Date: Feb 2011       02-22-2011, 3:35 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
and unless you have a cannon, you are not going to fight the pirates off.
I agree!
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       02-22-2011, 4:57 PM Reply   
I saw a short stoy on this.
They claim that the Somali goverment is in stuch disaray that they will do nothing to stop it.
Pirates claim there trade (fishing) has been distroyed by over fishing and they have no other choice
Pirates have got as much a 9 million for taking a oil rig (The Marsick)
Pirates have become more armed and more impowed because no one is stoping them.

The people that got caught and killed KNEW they were in a sketchy area, They were going around the work handing out Bibles

Should the US Park a war ship in Somali waters to protect comercial and private ship's?

The work is a F'd up place. Say away from areas like Somali and Oakland. You wanna hand out Bibles fine go do it in a place where people can read and it might make a diffrenace.

Im sorry these people had to die. Sutch a waste.

Deal them like the Russians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIVz4...has_verified=1
Old    Brad Walker (humboldt9)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-22-2011, 7:21 PM Reply   
My thoughts and prayers go out to the family. I hope they RIP...
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       02-22-2011, 7:27 PM Reply   
I was just going to say, anyone remember how the Russians did it.... no mercy at all.
Old    Train (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       02-22-2011, 9:41 PM Reply   
cant afford to feed their families, but they can afford rocket launchers and machine guns? sounds like the welfare recipients we have here in the USA. replace rocket launchers and machine guns with PS3's and booze.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       02-23-2011, 5:31 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttrigo View Post
cant afford to feed their families, but they can afford rocket launchers and machine guns? sounds like the welfare recipients we have here in the USA. replace rocket launchers and machine guns with PS3's and booze.
Exactly. I'm sure whoever is running the operation is hoarding the ransom money, and running an operation just as a drug lord would.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       02-23-2011, 5:35 AM Reply   
"South Korea says its troops' killing of Somali hijackers in a rescue operation in the Gulf of Aden sends a tough message to pirates and terrorists."

http://www.suite101.com/content/sout...e-raid-a335879
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       02-23-2011, 6:09 AM Reply   
Really tragic they had to die, attempting to do something as noble as passing out bibles. the stories I've read paint the people to be seasonaed sailors....I don't get why they would leave the flotilla they were with in such a sketchy place? My parents keep a boat that has acess to the open water...they rarely make it out of the bay, but everyone in their marina I know carries some sort of protection. Unfortunately my opinion of people on humanitarian missions feel they are some how protected from violence in a way, b/c of the work they are trying to perform. bottom line, really sad.
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       02-23-2011, 6:45 AM Reply   
Thats the biggest problem with the US right now. We are so afraid that what we ask is wrong from the perspective of others that we have lost the backbone it takes to be forceful with the few in order to discourage the many.

We have told the rest of the world that our tollerance creates an open invitation to ignore our laws and negates any mandate to respect our citizens.

Piracy and immigration problems are very easy to fix. Sometimes you have to go out and earn respect the old fashioned way.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-23-2011, 7:04 AM Reply   
^So it is our responsibility to ensure the safety of international waters off the coasts of other countries? Is that just for US vessels? If you commit a crime in France, is it the US's responsibility to punish you?

"cant afford to feed their families, but they can afford rocket launchers and machine guns? sounds like the welfare recipients we have here in the USA."

I don't think the pirates are buying their own machine guns and rocket launchers. They are probably handed an AK and 10 bucks while the mastermind collects the millions in ransom.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       02-23-2011, 7:43 AM Reply   
"So it is our responsibility to ensure the safety of international waters off the coasts of other countries? Is that just for US vessels? If you commit a crime in France, is it the US's responsibility to punish you?"


As a member of the United States Military, I feel it is our duty to protect and rescue any US citizen whether it be at home or abroad.

Last edited by bendow; 02-23-2011 at 7:44 AM. Reason: typo
Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-23-2011, 8:23 AM Reply   
As I said earlier they should have a Western coalition with the expenses shared.This is easy to stop, you just need backbone. I grew up in Africa. These people understand unbridled violence. Show weakness and you are done. They have absolutely no respect for human life,theirs or anybody elses.They are borderline savages. The hand wringing, bleeding hearts need to understand that and deal with them accordingly.

"'It's a black day for us and also the Americans, but they lost bigger than us,' a pirate who said his name was Bile Hussein said. 'If they still want a solution and safety for their citizens in the oceans, let them release our men they arrested.'

So basically the above statement reads - we want to be allowed to carry on unimpeded, (where the "safety for their citizens in the oceans" comes in I don't really understand??) so let our people go and everything will be fine. Except of course for those that are, and still to be kidnapped.

You tell me how you reason with that kind of logic?? With deadly force,that's how.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-23-2011, 8:26 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_ssr View Post
Thats the biggest problem with the US right now. We are so afraid that what we ask is wrong from the perspective of others that we have lost the backbone it takes to be forceful with the few in order to discourage the many.
I don't think this is accurate. The problem is it's difficult to maintain our moral standards in a place where we have no ability to maintain any rule of law. We maintain our standards so that we lead by example. We captured the pirates and will give them justice according to our moral standards. Unfortunately that isn't a deterent when dealing with these people.

As an individual it's easy for me to just say give them what they deserve. But as a country trying to provide a consistant example of treatment of people with regard to human rights it's not so easy to do. The ramifications of treating the pirates as the animals they are may lead to other countries seeing this as an example of treating those they want to get rid of in a similar manner.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-23-2011, 8:32 AM Reply   
^I'm sorry, but if a US citizen freely chooses to visit a hostile area, it is not the duty of our military to ensure the safety of that citizen.
Old    JBC (bcoppinger)      Join Date: Sep 2002       02-23-2011, 8:37 AM Reply   
Some pretty good ideas here...

http://blindkat.hegewisch.net/pirates/punish.html
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-23-2011, 8:46 AM Reply   
"This is easy to stop, you just need backbone...they have absolutely no respect for human life,theirs or anybody elses.They are borderline savages."

This statement contradicts itself. How would this be "easy" to stop? If the U.S. used their "backbone" and killed 500 pirates, and the thousands of future pirates that are waiting for their chance "have no respect for human life", then how would your "easy" solution rectify the situation? Do you think the surviving pirates are going to be dissuaded from partaking in future hijackings?
Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-23-2011, 9:23 AM Reply   
" going to be dissuaded from partaking in future hijackings"

YES!! I didn't say they wanted to die, I said they had no respect for human life. Anyway nothing will be done and this will continue. The West is pretty much a lame duck. Send the Russians. Or even better, some Israeli commandos.
Old    Train (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       02-23-2011, 11:10 AM Reply   
and how many more american tax dollars are going to be spent, if we treat them like humans? bring more of them to NY for a trial, and then hold them in our prisons for the rest of their lives? gimme a break. your talking about millions of american tax dollars being spent on these loonies. IF we involve our military, just sink their boats and let them figure out how to get back to dry land on their own. like Jeremy said though, stay out of hostile regions and you should have nothing to worry about.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-23-2011, 11:46 AM Reply   
Chris, that is not what you said. This is what you said, "no respect for human life, theirs or anybody elses". If they do not have respect for their own life, this implies they are not concerned with dying. When you don't have much to live for, dying is not that big of a concern. Here in the US, if you tell drug dealers that when they get caught they are going to jail for awhile, does this persuade all, or even more than a couple, to quit the trade? Or even when they do get arrested and convicted, does that prevent all of them from going back to dealing?
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-23-2011, 11:46 AM Reply   
Most of me feels bad for the families and that this is a tragedy. The other part of me feels more like this natural selection at it's finest.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       02-23-2011, 12:42 PM Reply   
Brett... I do fully agree.

As for the pirates, why not open that area up to "hunting expeditions". Send some nice shiny yachts into the area loaded up with Rednecks that are just looking to get their guns off. Arm them to the teeth with anything that shoots or blows up. Everyone wins. Charter pilots make some coin. Pirates think twice before boarding/jacking yachts.

I'm sorry, but Brett's on it. The only reason to venture into that water is if your vessel is in distress. Otherwise, you're just asking for trouble.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       02-23-2011, 12:44 PM Reply   
As for our military, I don't think it's their duty to enforce law in that area. I do think NATO should get involved, though. You can't allow piracy to go on without any type of repercussion. There is something that can be done. It's no one countries responsibility.
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-23-2011, 3:49 PM Reply   
I was wondering why there isn't the greater availability of highly armed escorts and found this article, which explains it somewhat along with the issues of carrying arms on board vessels going through this area:

http://www.homeland1.com/domestic-in...omali-pirates/

Here's another:
http://www.museprogroup.com/latest-n...r-controversy/

It seems frustrating that there's not a more coordinated way to have legal escorts with ships. There ought to be such an option available for any ship with an expensive cargo going through the area. As for what to do with the pirates when encountered, I'd say the pirates are open game. Sink their vessel and be done with them.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       02-23-2011, 3:59 PM Reply   
"If you were to port in Mexico and have arms aboard, you would be arrested, boat seized and have an extended vacation in Mexican jail. Many countries have similar laws."

Yep, that's to make sure their government isn't in danger when they board your vessel to extort you.

Screw sailing in international waters.
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       02-23-2011, 4:23 PM Reply   
John, That line of reason is what I was referring to. The right thing to do is to treat these pirates, in their own country, in a manner so disturbing that others fear to follow. Now we do not have the fortitude to do what is necessary. We are busy setting an example of the mercy suitable for most situations. However we cannot continue to show restraint in the repeating situations that call for unrestrained action.

I think restraint in the piracy situation (no question of it's universal criminality) is a sign of weakness. I think a violent stand against the universal evil IS a good example to set.

Allowing arms on vessels in international waterway travel will solve the problem. High tech arms on these yachts would make the rusty AKs look like pop guns.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-23-2011, 4:42 PM Reply   
Jason, again I disagree that lack of fortitude is the correct phrase. If anything fortitude is what we exhibit when we resist treating them in a barbaric manner. It doesn't take fortitude to torture people. If you read my first post in this thread you'll see where my opinion lies. But the US just can't do something like that. The ramifications IMO far outweigh the damage done by the pirates.

What we need to do is quietly turn the pirates over to another entity that lacks the fortitude to demonstrate humane treatment to the world. We are bound to treat humans humanely. But we aren't bound to ensure humane treatment of everyone outside our system of justice.

We catch the pirates and turn them over. It's not our duty to administer final justice in the Arabian Sea. Then wikileaks can go looking for emails about it.
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       02-23-2011, 6:26 PM Reply   
I think we agree on what should be done (the right thing), just disagree on who should be doing it.

In recent history we have covert ops for this type of stuff. It was also easier when every skirmish wasn't streaming on TMZ.

You believe someone else should be doing what is right so we can preserve our image of consistency. I think our image should be that of doing what is right over doing what is consistent.
Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-24-2011, 1:09 AM Reply   
Jeremy,I am not going to get into some little sematic war with you. These people have no respect for human life but they are not lemmings. As for your drug dealer anology, what would drug dealers do if they were told they would be shot on sight, with no exceptions, for dealing drugs??Not jail but instant execution!! That analogy would be more apt. If these people knew that every time they set sail there were going to be blown to smithereens,what would be the point?? Respect for life or not, it would be suicide, and do you think their bosses are going to let every vessel he owns get destroyed with no ransom income to replace them??

When I was in the army in South Africa I saw footage of blacks in the townships hacking people to death and eating them. These are not people running around in loincloths but kitted out in jeans and baseball caps. THAT is what you are dealing with.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-24-2011, 3:42 AM Reply   
Chris, there is no way to ensure these pirates get "blown to smithereens". Obviously, the rewards outweigh the risks or they wouldn't be doing it. Nothing in life is a certainty, except the fact that we will all die someday. Drug dealers are susceptible to getting shot by other drug dealers, cops, junkies, etc., but again, to most, the rewards outweigh the risks. Here's another analogy. In Texas, if you commit premeditated murder, you are going to get the death penalty or life without parole (essentially death), do people still commit premeditated murder in Texas?
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       02-24-2011, 4:41 AM Reply   
Jeremy, the reason the rewards outweigh the risk is because their is no risk. Attacking law abiding people on the ocean has no risk. They cannot defend themselves. People still commit premeditated murder in TX because its still easy to get away with. Not only that, but if you are caught, you get a trial which you may win. And finally, the end of the due process is not seen by the public. In general that which the public does not see, is not real.

We live in a nasty violent world. Through history, our bad behavior has been tempered by the brutal consequences we face individually and in many cases levied against our families. What we have done is remove the intense consequences with the expectation that the bad behavior those consequence hold in check will remain constant. Unfortunately, bad behavior escalates at the same rate that consequences are dimminished.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       02-24-2011, 7:39 AM Reply   
I heard last night that they are trying to bring the pirates here to stand trial. So now we get to pay for their defense, house and feed them for the rest of their lives. Great.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-24-2011, 9:10 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
I heard last night that they are trying to bring the pirates here to stand trial. So now we get to pay for their defense, house and feed them for the rest of their lives. Great.
Someone should accidently kill them on their way here.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       02-24-2011, 10:45 AM Reply   
Sink their boats..... Let them swim. The sharks will do the rest.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-24-2011, 5:15 PM Reply   
Jason, piracy has existed since people began using boats to travel. Pirates were forced to walk the plank, blah, blah, but there were still pirates.
Old    Rob VLX (skull)      Join Date: May 2002       02-25-2011, 5:46 AM Reply   
I am just surprise you can get 8-10 black guys in a boat.
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       02-25-2011, 5:53 AM Reply   
No question, there have been train robbers for as long as their have been trains too. However, it eventually got to the point where it just wasnt worth it. You never hear about it anymore. Also, classic pirates were pirates by trade and stood on equal footing with the military in regards to firepower. The military would regularly be outgunned by well outfitted pirate ships. It was a lucrative business because they were at the top of the food chain.

If the military munitions of the time were far more advanced and lethal than the pirates, the pirate industry would have disappeared. I believe that is the current situation and the pirate problem would go away with a 100% failure rate and a 100% death rate.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       02-25-2011, 10:41 AM Reply   
I think the reality is that it's just not a big enough interest for us to halt the enterprise. If it were a major problem for our economy or business interest, then it'd already be handled. The few random private boats that are boarded/seized don't justify a full scale assault on piracy 1/2 way around the world. Especially when these people are warned to stay away from these waters. When it's a larger, more valuable, vessel (Marsk Alabama for example) the military is quickly involved.

It's all politics/economics. At the end of the day we're not the worlds police. It's not on us as a country. If we fought every battle we'd have military personal fighting wars all over the world.
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       02-25-2011, 12:37 PM Reply   
Evan in most cases I would agree. Go into a dangerous country on your own and get into trouble, you have a certain amount of accountability. However piracy in international waters is unique. I'm no expert in maritime law but I think ships underway from the US retain a certain amount of US ownership. It has similarity of being US "soil". They should be defended from criminal invasion just like our beaches here. As long as boaters are not entering controlled waters they should be defended, or at least allowed to be outfitted to defend themselves.
Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-28-2011, 3:29 PM Reply   
And here we go again!! "Pirates angered by attempts to rescue them"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12600251
Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       03-01-2011, 1:59 AM Reply   
Click on the link "losing battle" at the bottom of the article and you can see how extensive their reach is and what a problem this has become. How on earth do they board an oil tanker??
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       03-01-2011, 7:17 AM Reply   
Looking at that map of where the pirates hit, why would any recreational boater need to go through that area?

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