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Old     (perfski)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-25-2011, 4:44 AM Reply   
Saw this boat a few weeks it is officially announced. Its for real.....
Old     (ironj32)      Join Date: Jan 2007       01-25-2011, 4:58 AM Reply   
that's awesome, and definitely a step in the right direction!
Old     (hyperlite)      Join Date: May 2009       01-25-2011, 5:33 AM Reply   
Can we get an electric 230? Lol
Old     (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-25-2011, 5:33 AM Reply   
Here are my thoughts:

To achieve a sufficiently long run time, the battery capacity required is going to weigh a LOT, which seems to be a drawback for a ski boat. A really heavy battery back would not necessarily be so bad in a wakeboat, but more power is going to be required to push a wakeboat around. I just don't know if an all electric boat is that practical. I wish someone would just go ahead and throw a turbo diesel in a wakeboat.
Old     (rscott22)      Join Date: Jan 2011       01-25-2011, 7:43 AM Reply   
This seems like the future IMO. Car companies area ll doing why not boats? My thought is though how long will a charge last and how much will it cost to charge a boat up?
Old     (SkySki)      Join Date: Feb 2010       01-25-2011, 7:51 AM Reply   
It is a good step in the right direction. I am not against the turbo diesel, but I am for solar panels charging my boat during the week while I am at work and then I drive for free on the weekend. Solar panels or wind depending on where you live.
Old     (loudontn)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-25-2011, 7:53 AM Reply   
I wonder if it'll cost as much as a hydro electric dam?
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-25-2011, 8:17 AM Reply   
Typical comp ski boat owners this would be perfict. Its not for EVERYONE yet but for the people that run a few set's in the AM and then put the boat back on the lift it's Perfict.

Most ski'rs out out early and run a few sets and then are off the lake by the time the tubers hit the lake. During that time the boat and be recharging (if needed) for a eve run.
I think its a great Idea. Im guessing its gonna be a 80 to 100k ski boat
Old     (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       01-25-2011, 8:33 AM Reply   
"Nautique boats introduces the industry’s first 100% electric ski boat" i was about to complain and say that natique is Second to epic not first, but then i realized the key word(s), "SKI BOAT"
Epic's all Electric boat is an I/O sport boat and the hybrid is built on the 23v

very cool stuff to see more companies push alternative fuels

I was fortunate enough to take a ride (as a passenger) in a Tesla Roadster (all electric sports car) a couple days ago. Most amazing experience with a vehicle i have ever had. i am not a car junkie by any means, but i will be remembering the experience for a life time. the acceleration was instant. "make sure your head is against the seat!?" ZOOOOOMMM! 0-60 in 3 and a half seconds.!

i wonder if this kind of acceleration will translate to electric boats having good hole shots?

Last edited by wakerider111; 01-25-2011 at 8:41 AM.
Old     (fish6942)      Join Date: Dec 2005       01-25-2011, 9:01 AM Reply   
It's apparent that most here have no idea of the magnitude of a solar setup that would be required to recharge a battery system of this size. Especially if you want it done in a matter of hours.
Old     (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-25-2011, 9:13 AM Reply   
The real question is going to be cost. Sure you're saving gas, but 100K for an electric boat is just plain stupid.
Old     (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       01-25-2011, 9:15 AM Reply   
Originally Posted by fish6942 View Post
It's apparent that most here have no idea of the magnitude of a solar setup that would be required to recharge a battery system of this size. Especially if you want it done in a matter of hours.
If the panels were made efficient enough, it wouldnt take that long...the sun has some awesome power.

electric motors have like a torque curve that goes straight up! sounds cool!

I think its a sweet idea and im glad they are doing it! I would definitely like a motor in there somewhere as a back up, maybe a small diesel engine or gasser even, that would run as a generator and give you enough juice to empty sacks and get back safe.

epic has had a sort of hybrid boat out for a while now havent they?

Last edited by ilikebeaverandboats; 01-25-2011 at 9:18 AM.
Old     (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       01-25-2011, 9:25 AM Reply   
The typical "ski" boats gas bill isn't sufficent enough to warrant the huge extra cost associated with an electric motor. If it is being used as G says, which is very typical, the only real benifit is no need to yank it for gas or haul tanks as well as the immediate torque electric motors provide. I suppose if one is a big time greenie it might make you feel a little better too.
Old     (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-25-2011, 9:25 AM Reply   
It's not going to be cheap no matter how much gas you save. Did you see that there was only about 6" of interior freeboard? Pretty sick really, but I would like to see a wakeboard version loaded up with 3K of ballast.
Old     (daveronix199)      Join Date: Feb 2009       01-25-2011, 9:28 AM Reply   
pretty sure EPIC boats was the FIRST
Old     (benjaminp)      Join Date: Nov 2008       01-25-2011, 9:29 AM Reply   
You could get 3K of ballast out of batteries.
Old    SamIngram            01-25-2011, 9:32 AM Reply   
Old     (bbr)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-25-2011, 9:42 AM Reply   
Originally Posted by benjaminp View Post
You could get 3K of ballast out of batteries.
Very true. I would like to see just how long you can run while pulling all that weight.
Old     (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       01-25-2011, 10:03 AM Reply   
when your spending this kind of money on a boat, is gas really a big issue. I would bet most people who buy these electric boats are purchasing to make a stmt about being green, not saving $$ on gas costs.
Old     (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       01-25-2011, 10:12 AM Reply
Old     (ShaunCope10)      Join Date: Nov 2010       01-25-2011, 10:31 AM Reply   
Yeah im all for an electric 230!
Old     (moto817)      Join Date: Jan 2011       01-25-2011, 11:33 AM Reply   
I would like to know how much this boat wieghs, how much extra in fuel you will use trying to tow it and if you have a slip with a lift , the size of lift it would take to lift it. My 6K rated Hydrohoist has a tough time lifting my 4300 lb F23. Also have any of these "Greenies" Looked into what it takes to produce these batteries, or the cost and environmental impact of disposal after they spent . Also unless you are truly going to install a windmill or huge solar panels to charge your boat, the electricity you are recharging your battery with more than likely comes from a power plant which is burning fossil fuels for energy or a hydro electric powerplant that is negatively impacting our waterways. The environmental impact is almost always there no matter how you look at it.
Old     (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-25-2011, 11:41 AM Reply   
Actually, Epic has something like this. They've had customers from Europe ask them to remove the gas/diesel generator from their hybrid boats and instead put in extra batteries. Really cool to see another company pushing the technology as well.

Keep in mind that although the extra costs might not seem to make sense to us in the U.S., they make a lot of sense over in Europe where electricity is more readily available, gas is very expensive and permits to put a gas boat on a lake are either very expensive or don't exist. I believe access sold their first 20 or so hybrids to Austria (I think I got that country right). I think these boats make a lot of sense for European buyers.
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       01-25-2011, 11:50 AM Reply   
It is cool that they are looking at something like this and developing the technology. It may make sense for someone on a private ski lake where the boat is right next to where you ski and is close enough that if you kill the batteries you aren't stuck in the middle of the lake. I can't imagine it will be cheap though and would probably never recoup the price in fuel savings especially when you have to replace all the batteries in 5 or 6 years.

I would rather see a diesel with a gear reduced transmission. I would also like to see the US start drilling more in or around our own country as well as start using our refineries. That way the price of fuel goes down and we can tell the middle east to go F itself. It probably won't happen though with all the tree hugging morons in our country though.
Old     (bmartin)      Join Date: Jan 2007       01-25-2011, 11:58 AM Reply   
I like the direction Nauti and Epic are heading. Anything that produces movement, heat, or light is going to have an environmental impact. Throwing the idea out because there is still SOME environmental impact is ridiculous. Sure, a plug in would be better suited for those with powered docks or for the real green minded those with panels or wind generators on their dock roofs and yes trailering is a factor, but the extra energy to move an extra 1000lbs on a trailer or so is going to be marginal for modest hauls to the lake compared to the potential energy savings to shove the boat around once it is in the water. I just hope the that once and if production gets scaled up, the cost of a plug in or hybrid might be somewhat competitive with petro powered boats.

All kinds of other potential plusses of a plug in too. No more lugging gas to the dock, EtOH gas worries, CO risks when surfing, noise, built in balast, torque....
Old     (chris4x4gill2)      Join Date: Sep 2009       01-25-2011, 12:57 PM Reply   
This is the kind of "out of the box" thinking that will really push innovation and development of these brands. Great to see them putting in the effort.
Old    SamIngram            01-25-2011, 1:19 PM Reply   
I'm holding out for a nuclear powered wakeboat myself...

The USN NR-1 is only 146' long and is nuclear powered.... just scale that down a little bit more!

Displacement: 365 tons surfaced, 393 tons submerged
Length: 145 feet overall, 96 feet pressure hull
Beam: 12 feet
Draft: 15 feet
Propulsion: Turbo-electric drive, two propellors, plus fore & aft maneuvering thrusters
Reactor: 1 pressurized-water reactor
Speed: 4.5 knots surface, 3.5 knots submerged
Endurance: 210 man-days nominal, 330 man-days maximum
Operating Depth: 3,000 feet
Crew: 11 operators plus two scientists

I don't think its that big of a stretch to scale it down.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-25-2011, 1:54 PM Reply   
Producing something that is electric-powered, solar-powered, etc. should not be viewed as the "Greenies" trying to push an issue. I mean what the hell is wrong with a little innovation? Maybe an electric boat doesn't seem that viable at the moment, but the technology could lead to a more fuel-effecient towboat that is affordable.
Old     (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       01-25-2011, 3:18 PM Reply   
Producing something that is electric-powered, solar-powered, etc. should not be viewed as the "Greenies" trying to push an issue
You're right I'm sure none of their ads will have a bent as to how eco friendly this boat is. I don't think there is an agenda per say but I doubt this would be even a concept if the "Green" movement wasn't so big these days. I like innovation, especially if it reduce costs to us, but I don't think that is its the driving force behind this boat.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-25-2011, 3:23 PM Reply   
Hey Check out this thread from 07 "How long till the firsst electric wake boat?

just to be clear.

Epic 23 e, is a "Hybrid" A gas motor that makes power and pushes a electric motor also has batteys for pure electric only operation. (just like the Chevy Volt) so when the batterys are dead the gas motor works like a generator

Nautique "Pure Electric". when batterys are dead the ride is over

These guys have had a fully operational electric boat WAY before nautique.

But in Nautiques defence the Boesch is not a Ski Boat. SO i guess nautique can rightfully say the have the first Fully Electric Ski Boat.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-25-2011, 4:15 PM Reply   
I guess some people won't be happy until there is an oil well on every square inch of the US.
Old    SamIngram            01-25-2011, 6:13 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
I guess some people won't be happy until there is an oil well on every square inch of the US.
I guess some people won't be happy until we have absolutely no domestic energy sources and a foreigner pulls the strings on every issue on every square inch of the US...

On a different note.

There is a guy who has a pontoon boat next to our slip at Lake Powell that is completely solar powered. The boat's name is mrbongwater, and the owner use to have a website with the same name. He took a sunk Bennington Tritoon and made an aluminium lightweight frame for the pontoons and put solar panels on roof the entire length of the 32' boat. He also built side walls or rails or whatever you call them with panels that faced the water, they were slightly angled downward. He uses two 10 horsepower electric motors from Germany or Sweden, I can't remember, with variable pitched props. The motors almost always ran at the same speed, but the props changed pitched or something.

Anyhow, the guy and his wife are regularly out for 2-3 months in the summer and never get gas or any other supplies!! The boat is awesome. It has water filters to make fresh water from the lake. I'll see if I can find pictures, I have them somewhere.
Old     (bobenglish)      Join Date: Mar 2008       01-25-2011, 6:36 PM Reply   
Weight may not be much different between a V8 cast iron motor, transmission, and 35 gallons of gas, versus 2 electric motors and batteries. Likely within a couple hundred pounds of each other.
Old     (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       01-25-2011, 8:38 PM Reply   
The biggest issue as I see it is run time vs charge time. For your normal person like me who doesn't have the luxury of living on a lake and having power at a dock, I can't charge mid-day. I gas up my 46 gal tank on the way to the river and know I can ride all day. If I'm out an extra long time or burn more than usual I know I can stop at any number of marinas on the river and refuel and it'll only take me 5 minutes. This electric boat gets you 3 slalom sets per 4 hrs of charge time. Not gonna fly with many people. Assuming I was rich and could afford any boat I wanted, at the minimum I would demand a 10 hour run time and overnight charge to even consider an electric boat.

Don't get me wrong, it's cool that manufacturers are developing this stuff and maybe some day it'll be mature enough to become practical for the masses and a reasonable price point. Just right now it's not. That's how all new tech goes. When cars were first invented very few could afford them. it's a process.

Personally I think Epic has a good recipe with their hybrid. I'm sure it's ludicrously expensive, but you can put gas in it and ride as long as you want. At the end of the day it still saves fuel costs. Seems good to me, so long as maintenance and battery costs over 10-20 yrs of ownership add up to a net savings over a traditional gas only boat. Seems to me they're on the right track though, as a hybrid is marketable. Who wants to drop $100k on a boat you can only run for 4 hours/day with a 4 hr break between each hour? That's not how I boat and I imagine it's not how most of us use our boats.
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       01-25-2011, 8:49 PM Reply   
MAybe we will see something like Allison's Hybrid drive system at some point in a boat. I believe Delco Remy manufactures the Stator assembly for them so the drive is creating DC output to charge the batteries.
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       01-25-2011, 9:40 PM Reply   
Just so much misinformation I don't know where to start. I don't even know if I want to get involved with this thread but what the heck.

Solar, crystalline silicon solar panels range between 14-20% efficient converting the sun irradiance to watts. Thin film CIGS (Solyndra, Nanosolar, etc.) and cad tel (First Solar) is about 7-10% efficient, and amorphous silicon like anything off the now extinct Applied Materials equipment is about 6-8% efficient. Add the remainder of the inefficiences in a typical solar generator and you are down to about 11-12% at best. That translates to about 5-10 watts/square foot in the northern hemisphere where we have moderate weather and clear sun. Around latitude 38 you will see about 5.5 equivalent full sun hours daily when averaged over a whole year for a low tilt fixed solar array. So, what does this mean... You ain't gonna be charging that boat with solar panels if you have less than acre nor less than a quarter of a million dollars to dedicate to your cause. And even then you are going to need to charge it while you would rather be skiing.

Power in vs power out. This boat is really kind of silly based on the information they provide. It takes 3-4 hours to charge for 3-4 slalom sets according to the video. A typical slalom set is about 5 minutes of on-plane boat operating time. So you can run it for 20 minutes then charge it for 4 hours.

The Nautique design looks to me like a bunch of mis-applied automotive technology. Two motors? A gearbox? Makes me wonder what the heck they were thinking. From an engineering perspective this thing has mistake written all over it. They should have just ripped off the design from the Boesch 560, the official first electric ski boat. They got it right, one motor directly coupled to the driveshaft. Granted it only goes 22mph but it's still the first electric ski boat before the Nautique. If they really needed 2 motors to deliver the power they should have put them on a common shaft as it is done industrially.

The Epic, it is a locomotive, not all electric. It uses an internal combustion motor to drive a generator to batteries then to the electric motor. The batteries are simply a temporary storage for the power generated on board. Actually a more intelligent design from my perspective.

So much negativity. Well I guess I should look at the bright side. It's a great marketing tool and I truly think that's all it is. Look at the mileage they have already gotten from it. Probably more money and thought put into the graphics, lights, and upholstery than the actual engineering behind this machine. Looks cool, and I would like to have one if they were giving them out as promo's. Of course I would probably tear it apart and rebuild it the way it should have been done in the first place.

Last thought. The last shot in the video, the gearbox of that boat seems to make just as much noise as our V8 motors? The coolest part of owning a Prius is driving in the all electric mode with eerie silence, and they "missed the boat" with that opportunity.

Last edited by mikeski; 01-25-2011 at 9:49 PM.
Old     (petrey10)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-26-2011, 7:36 AM Reply   
great idea but why in the world would you want an electric SKI could load up more batteries in a wake boat and people would be happy you are adding weight.... electric is an expensive up front cost that many won't buy because of it

I can't believe companies aren't throwing in turbo diesels... seriously it just makes sense... more torq... more efficient... it is heavier but no one really cares about weight in a wake/surf boat... yeah there isn't many places on the water to fill up on diesel but the added efficiency and most likely a huge tank you could easily run all day
Old     (wakebrdr94)      Join Date: Jul 2010       01-26-2011, 8:44 AM Reply   
Just my .02, but I always thought water and electricity don't mix well. I would be more concerned with safety at this point. I have read articles and seen news stories, that emergency responders like fireman are having to take classes and be trained on how to properly deal with car accidents when electric vehicles are involved so not to harm themselves. Now add water into the mix, not smart. Its one thing to see "responsible " people testing this, but now put the average idiot behind the wheel, with 10 people jumping in and out, soaking everything. I'm all for inovation, but it takes that one person to shock himself while charging, or something worse. I'm sure many of us people on this fourm could operate this boat, but not the brain child out there that is bored with too much money to spend.
Old     (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       01-26-2011, 10:35 AM Reply   
First of all regarding diesels...

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I couldn't stand riding for very long behind an oil burner. They reek! (and this from an ex-truck driver). As far as everything else about a diesel (torque, economy, etc...I love it) - and I think it would sound sick hearing a nice turbo diesel in a wakeboat...but not hearing it too much!lol

And Chattwake - I think Mastercraft has the VW diesel as an option in their boats already??? If they can eliminate the nasty smell, then they would be excellent. Perhaps super clean blue tek with FAE?

I still think that Epic is got a great system. Hybrid is the way to go imo. I'm not sure why they need the 8.1 still in the hybrid though.

Second - just to throw in the mix...ECOBOOST wakeboat - or Ecoboost hybrid wakeboat! Now we are talking some serious technology.
Old     (jtnz)      Join Date: Sep 2007       01-26-2011, 5:28 PM Reply   
23e doesn't run an 8.1 as well as an electric motor, it's just a small diesel generator.
Old     (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       01-26-2011, 11:05 PM Reply   
I would have to say that there is no way it is a diesel generator...but I really don't know that for a fact, other than I would have thought it would get better than twice the economy with a diesel hybrid vs a 8.1 big block...

That being said, they call the system the ......Flux Propulsionís EVO 8.1 Marine Drive that is why I figured it was still an 8.1 attached to an electric motor...I just googled for 10 minutes and that flux 8.1 is as detailed as I could find... no mention whatsoever as to what the system is.

So, you may be right, or not, but I just watched the epic hybrid video and DANG that boat is something sweet...I'm glad I gave them the idea to make it.

What is it about these boat companies that build ultra silent boats (electric or whatever) and their videos blast crap music the whole time so you can't get any sort of feel for how quiet it is. I was going to mention this about the op video also...

and I'd really like to know what that epic system really consists of...if anybody has one
Old     (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-27-2011, 12:50 PM Reply   
This announcement is for a prototype, not production, and gets 3-4 sets through slalom gates on a 4 hour charge on their lightest hull. It's a long way from being a usable boat. It is fun to see that people are trying it.
Old     (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       01-30-2011, 4:06 PM Reply   
I was just reading the alliance gear guide issue on pg 80-81 it is about boat tech and interviews with different boat brands. the last question addresses fuel consumption, emissions, and stuff.

epic of course mentioned the hybrid and electric stuff

tige however added this toward the end of their response, "...We are currently in development on diesel power as well as exporing other advanced options"

i remembered there was a good deal of talk on diesel here so i thought you would all like to see it
Old     (petrey10)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-01-2011, 9:37 AM Reply   
yeah old diesels were stinky and dirty.... new diesels are much much cleaner and some aren't even that loud... also if you add a FAE to the diesel all of this doesn't matter because FAE reduces fumes by 90%... i know because I have one!! And its super super quiet (i like it!)

I am glad to see Tige working on diesel power... I just hope diesel power doesn't jump the price by 10,000... then its wouldn't be worth it...
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       02-02-2011, 11:05 AM Reply   
Sorry for this stupid question But. What would Diesels do to address the black smoke? Would this black smoke get injected into the water? I hope Im not being stupid but To me I don't see how a Diesel could be cleaner (for the water) than a gas motor. Im sure there will alwasy be a place for a Diesel but IMO its not a Ski or Wakeboard boat. IMO they are no better for the water then the smelly 2 stroke's

This is a older program but is show's how effective and Fast a electric motor system can be.

IMO Diesels are not the answer. Electric has a long way to go. And maby a Fully electric boat that meet's more peoples need's is a few years away. There are problems that need to be worked out. But IMO they are close. Electric cars are just starting to become more popular and they ARE NOT FOR EVERYONE but there are lots of people that cant take advantage of the things electric has to offer.

I don't know about the rest of you but the amount of power it takes to put a boat on plane is huge. Most 8L gas motors could not perform as well as this electric boat. So i understand why its range is so short (FOR NOW) But people only seem to be focused on what it cant do. I understand its not for everyone but for the people that it could work for is so cool.
Old     (AP)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-02-2011, 11:11 AM Reply   
Another concern for me... How many of us refill at the lake after a great morning of riding?? How long will we be out of commission when the battery dies?? I know if the water is perfect, weather is perfect.. and I am anxious to ride.. i dont want to wait 6 hours for my battery to charge...

How about spontaneous trips to the lake? What if my batteries are not charged? It's just another thing that requires you to PLAN your trips. I would like my boat ready whenever I am.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       02-02-2011, 11:30 AM Reply   
I Laugh at the people that always want to make a excuess how somthing (like this) could never work for them.

Example, I have a few friends that drive only a few miles each day to work. I have asked them if they thought a electric car like the Nissan Leaf with a 100 mile range between charges would be somthing they could live with. Most answer NO what if I wanted to go to LA or somthing. I then say when was the last time you drove to LA?


AP: You have a cell phone right? You have to charge it up each night right? Yea you have to do a little planning. No big deal. I understand this boat would not work for everyone Just like a electric car would not work for everyone. The Epic Hybrid boat would be somthing more for you. And untill a wake boat could go for a full or Half day of use I don't know how many people would jump ships
Old     (AP)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-02-2011, 11:46 AM Reply   
Im not knocking the concept... I like the fact that the industry is being pushed... but I was speaking for personal concerns... I am very spontaneous... A cell phone is a weak comparison because a cell is something you take with you daily... I don't just decide one day... Hey! I wanna make a call!! If that was the case.. chances are, my phone wouldnt be charged.. and if it was, it would be charged enough to last 5 minutes of talk time... I wanted to talk all day though. Also... cell phone's can be charged anywhere... I just plug in my charger and viola! Besides, i can talk on my phone while its charging too... I can't wakeboard while my boat is charging...
Old     (AP)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-02-2011, 11:50 AM Reply   
But once again, not starting an argument.. just my concerns... =)
Old     (captain_542)      Join Date: Oct 2006       02-02-2011, 12:02 PM Reply   
I like the idea of a boat that is more economical. i too dont think batteries is the way to go though. I'm just thinking in terms of cars but you can get 80mpg out of a small 1.8L diesel from a VW and even in a 3.0L diesel with 275hp and 440ft-lbs from a Jaguar you can get 50mpg. Thats on standard Diesel. What about biodiesel. You can get 1000 gallons of methanol from an acre of Hemp plants. biodiesel is biodegradable, would some in the water be bad? There's gotta be a reason that Rudolf Diesel designed his engines to run on vegetable and seed oils. Henry Ford built model Ts out of Hemp and ran the engines on it too. I'm just dreaming cuz it probably wont be legalized for years but im wishing and praying for it. I'd love to see a diesel in a boat so I could make my own biodiesel for it.


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