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Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-31-2011, 9:51 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
Yup, that's me, no clue... Often, more times than not, the quality of the answer you receive is based on the quality of the question you ask (i.e. ask a smart-ass question, get a smart-ass answer).
Your smart ass insinuation about having no clue about natural law deserved no better. It appears to me that you know little more about natural law than to parrot another's opinion that you agree with.
Old    SamIngram            01-31-2011, 10:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
Your smart ass insinuation about having no clue about natural law deserved no better. It appears to me that you know little more about natural law than to parrot another's opinion that you agree with.
Please expand on that. Tell me what you know about Natural Law that I can not already read. Are you a great philosopher or something? I have studied the Constitution, early US history, the Federalist Papers, etc... in great detail. I don't know everything, but I do think I know and understand a great deal of it AND am looking for further understanding. I change my mind often based on what I learn.

What classes are you currently taking on the subject, or have even taken in the past? I am currently taking two:
Reviving the Constitution - CIV 415 from Hillsdale College
The Federalist Papers - CIV 506 from Hillsdale College

I just finished three others last semester..

I think you took my comment personally and responded to your attack on me.

Quote:
Cory some people will never understand what the Founding Fathers did, they get all caught up in the religion part, and can't grasp the basic idea of natural law.
It is a fact that most US Citizens don't understand the original intent of the of Federal Government, it's history, or basic concepts - including Natural Law.

Why don't you stop spending your time attacking me and more time trying to educate me, if you are so smart?

Please enlighten me!
Old    SamIngram            01-31-2011, 10:56 AM Reply   
Also, I wanted to ask you, is this Natural Law:

Exodus 21:23-25 (King James Version)

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

What about this:

leviticus 24:19-24:21

19 Anyone who maims another shall suffer the same injury in return:

20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; the injury inflicted is the injury to be suffered.

21One who kills an animal shall make restitution for it; but one who kills a human being shall be put to death.

Or

deuteronomy 19:16-19:21

16 a malicious witness comes forward to accuse someone of wrongdoing,

17 then both parties to the dispute shall appear before the Lord, before the priests and the judges who are in office in those days,

18 and the judges shall make a thorough inquiry. If the witness is a false witness, having testified falsely against another,

19 then you shall do to the false witness just as the false witness had meant to do to the other. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

20 The rest shall hear and be afraid, and a crime such as this shall never again be committed among you.

21Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Why or why not? What about these?

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

This the Bible. This is Natural Law
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-31-2011, 11:51 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
It is a fact that most US Citizens don't understand the original intent of the of Federal Government, it's history, or basic concepts - including Natural Law.

Why don't you stop spending your time attacking me and more time trying to educate me, if you are so smart?

Please enlighten me!
It's not my job to educate you. When you engage in a discussion, you should be able to express your arguments in your own words. Don't send me off to watch movies or read links in order to make your case. Claiming that I can't grasp Natural Law as an argument is a cheap shot and woefully lacking in any substance.

When Cory stated my comment wasn't very American, he was parially correct. It isn't American, it's a fundamental aspect of human society since before recorded history. As a participant of society you have certain responsibilities towards your fellow man. These responsibilities don't infringe on your inalienable rights. You can persue Life, Liberty, and Happiness and still meet your responsibilities towards society. And part of your inalienable rights are to enjoy the benefits of society.

When you raise a hue and cry about your inalienable rights being trampled, you cannot simply take it as a literal interpretation of the Declaration of Independance that anything that infringes on your personal persuit of happiness is depriving you of your rights. Your inalienable rights are subject to interpretation by all men, because that's where they come from. Not a majority rule, but the inate will of all men to be free to persue their own happiness. It's a much more fundamental type of right than to say "I don't like this health care law and making me participate is an infrigement of the rights given to me by God".
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-31-2011, 12:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
Also, I wanted to ask you, is this Natural Law:

....

This the Bible. This is Natural Law
No, it's not natural law. Natural law is what's instilled in your being as a result of evolution. Or for the religious, what God programmed into you. The bible is a historical document of arguable degrees of fact and fiction. Human laws often reflect natural law. All men know that deceit, stealing, and murder goes against natural law. Human society could have never advanced without a universal adoption of such laws.

Of course natural law encompasses far more than this, but I think we recognize the context of the discussion.

edit: and whoops on the above. I do know how to spell pursue and pursuit.

Last edited by fly135; 01-31-2011 at 12:05 PM.
Old    SamIngram            01-31-2011, 12:34 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
No, it's not natural law. Natural law is what's instilled in your being as a result of evolution. Or for the religious, what God programmed into you. The bible is a historical document of arguable degrees of fact and fiction. Human laws often reflect natural law. All men know that deceit, stealing, and murder goes against natural law. Human society could have never advanced without a universal adoption of such laws.

Of course natural law encompasses far more than this, but I think we recognize the context of the discussion.

edit: and whoops on the above. I do know how to spell pursue and pursuit.
So you give no credit to concept of Lex Talionis or Thomas Aquinas’s natural law doctrine?

I find it strange how your definition totally ignores 2,000 years of philosophy.

natural law 
–noun
a principle or body of laws considered as derived from nature, right reason, or religion and as ethically binding in human society.

Where does your definition come from? Mine comes from 2000 years of philosophy and the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2011
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-31-2011, 12:54 PM Reply   
So what's your point Sam? It's not that we disagree with natural law as a fundamental source of many laws. You do recall that I said the right to life, liberty, and happiness was an expression of moral code. And moral codes are generally a direct reflection of natural law. What's really relevant is your interpretation of how natural law relates to the topic at hand. You seem to be claiming that any laws that infringe on your happiness is a violation natural law. The real issue is that it seems you believe having to buy HI is a violation of natural law.

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