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Old    Matt Johnston (mattjj23)      Join Date: May 2008       01-12-2011, 6:23 PM Reply   
What is the deal with diesel prices lately? Here in Oregon we are paying $3.49 a gallon, and that is the cheapest in my area. Its not going to be worth it to have my diesel truck before long at this rate.
Old    Baitkiller (baitkiller)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-12-2011, 6:31 PM Reply   
You have a keen sense of the obvious. Diesel has been 20c to 60c over petral here for 2 years.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-12-2011, 6:38 PM Reply   
I think it will still be worth it to keep your/my diesel truck. Better fuel economy, less maintainence, and the fact that you/I can put half a million to a million miles on it still works out better over time. Not to mention that cheaper to produce bio diesel is coming...but I to feel the pinch here in Cali.
Old    John Bauer (jonyb)      Join Date: Nov 2008       01-12-2011, 6:50 PM Reply   
Same as the 93 octane I had to put in my CTS-V. I'll stick to my diesel truck since it's so much more capable then an equivalent gas burner.
Old    Ajholt7 (ajholt7)      Join Date: Apr 2009       01-12-2011, 6:53 PM Reply   
No way am I ever going back to a gas engine truck.
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-12-2011, 7:13 PM Reply   
[QUOTEBetter fuel economy][/QUOTE]

No argument that a diesel will get better MPG's then its gas counterpart. But because diesel cost more per gallon then gas, the only way to do an apples to apples is to break it down to cost per mile. You can keep it simple and do it with fuel costs only, or you can add in regularly scheduled maintenance.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-12-2011, 7:23 PM Reply   
^^^^ I agree. I use a program that's Free for I phone in the App store call'd "fuel log". You enter in your odometer miles and gallons everytime you fill and with in 3 fill up's it will create a fuel log profile. Its good to track your milage you know how much your spending and what its costing you. It only takes a few seconds to enter it and your doing nothing while filling anyways
Old    Brett Treiber (pc_sledge)      Join Date: Jan 2006       01-13-2011, 5:25 AM Reply   
I have a 2011 Duramax that requires diesel exhaust fluid to meet the new emission standards. It appears that i'm going to burn about 5 gallons of this stuff for every 2000 miles I drive which at 5 bucks a gallon is another cost to consider.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-13-2011, 5:49 AM Reply   
John,

Hahaha. I also sold a supercharged cts-v, in part, due to fuel consumption. I was getting around 15mpg using premium. I ended up buying a 2005 Dodge 2500 4x4 because I wanted the HO 5.9 Cummins motor. I get 18mpg in the Dodge, and that's running 35'' Mickey Thompson ATZ's. I'll never get rid of this truck. It doesn't ride that well, but it can tow a house and still get great gas mileage doing it (for a truck).

I think next year, if gas keeps going up, I'm going to buy a 2003-2005 Mercedes c230 kompressor sedan to commute to work. Those baby's get 30+ mpg and are still relatively fun to drive.
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       01-13-2011, 5:51 AM Reply   
The Mercedes diesels are awesome and will pin you back in your seat if you are not careful and not to mention the gas mileage is top notch.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       01-13-2011, 6:46 AM Reply   
I think it's funny when people talk about spending $10k-$20k on a car or over $40k on a truck to "Save money on gas". These people are usually the types who buy a new car every few years, which boggles the mind how they think they're saving any money.

In any event, figure out how long you'll keep the vehicle, and about how many miles that number of years will equate to. Divide the cost of the vehicle over that many miles + the cost per mile of fuel. You may want to figure in a small percentage rise in fuel cost per year. Also factor in things like tires, brakes, misc. slush fund for small items, high ticket items like engine or transmission depending on miles/usage/type of engine/trans and expected life. If you do this all yourself the cost is minimal but still worth considering. It's a fun little exercise to see the real cost per mile of a vehicle over the time you expect to own it or the cost per mile/total cost to keep something for 10 years vs 15 yrs, etc.. Also consider insurance costs if it's a second vehicle, as these would be additional costs as opposed to driving the gas hog every day.

If you want a new vehicle or a different vehicle, go for it, but don't assume you're saving money by doing so until you do the math. It also may take 5 years to reach the break even point where you are saving money... Will you have the gasser truck or diesel econobox car that long plus a few years longer to actually save money? To each his own, but be aware of the costs and savings. I say get a vehicle because it's what you like/want. If you are really worried about fuel costs get a motorcycle. They're cheap to buy, cheap to insure, easy to maintain, and fuel efficient. Plus, it's a great excuse to buy another toy and if you ride a lot (instead of driving the truck) it will save you money.
Old    Tyler Hiney (thiney)      Join Date: Sep 2009       01-13-2011, 7:06 AM Reply   
Chattwake your a man after my own heart I have a 2003 Dodge 2500 4x4 with 35" and a 2005 C230 Kompressor with the six speed manual that I drive to work in (65 miles one way). If I'm not jackassing around it gets 32 MPG! Maybe I missed it but all the old timers around here complain about diesel being a less refined byproduct of gasoline, is there any truth to this? It seems to me that diesel jumped up over gas in price when they switched to the ultra low sulfur fuel.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-13-2011, 8:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake_upppp View Post
I think it will still be worth it to keep your/my diesel truck. Better fuel economy, less maintainence, and the fact that you/I can put half a million to a million miles on it still works out better over time. Not to mention that cheaper to produce bio diesel is coming...but I to feel the pinch here in Cali.
Less maintenance? How do you figure? My diesel truck takes twice the amount of oil that my gas engine did but it lasts twice as long, it has to have a fuel filter every 20k miles, a transmission filter every 10k miles, more expensive air filters, it was at least $10k more than the gas equivalent and diesel is at least $.40 more per gallon. I get 4 mpg better than my old truck towing and the same mileage as the gas truck not towing. I bought the truck for the power, not the cost benefit. Unless you are towing every single day of the week, there is no way that a diesel is cheaper than gas in any way, shape or form. You buy the diesel because you want to push the pedal and feel the torque!
Old    Shawn (helinut)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-13-2011, 9:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
I have a 2011 Duramax that requires diesel exhaust fluid to meet the new emission standards. It appears that i'm going to burn about 5 gallons of this stuff for every 2000 miles I drive which at 5 bucks a gallon is another cost to consider.
If you are burning that much DEF you either have a very heavy foot or something is wrong with your truck. It should last around 5k to 7k miles depending on your driving habits. Or if you're towing all the time, of course you'll use more.

My buddy has the same truck but in the 3500 series. He made it around 4k before putting in bout 4 gallons of DEF. He has a heavy foot though.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-13-2011, 9:25 AM Reply   
Diesel cost less to refine than gasoline was always my understanding Why it cost more at the pump I have no idea but I am sure an oil company CEO could tell you.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-13-2011, 9:51 AM Reply   
Diesel was always cheaper until they went to ULSD and they claim that they need to make up for the costs of the new refining process and that's why it is more now or some such bs!
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       01-13-2011, 10:34 AM Reply   
I did the cost analysis with my Diesel. I found that I would never recoup the initial investment or the additional mileage. The cost of service is prohibitively high and the mileage isn't that much better unless towing. The best part about diesels is their amazing resale value. I sold mine within 10 minutes of lisitng it and got everything I wanted for it.

That said.... justifying a diesel truck because of mileage is only an excuse. You drive these trucks because they're bada$$ and can haul a house if you wanted to. Theoretically the hard parts should last forever, too.

In the end, for me, it became tiring. I'm back to an SUV and am pretty convinced that I'll never drive another 3/4 ton truck unless I get a big toy hauler or trailer. It's just too much overkill for our boat and they suck as daily drivers (at least for my application).
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-13-2011, 10:46 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by guido View Post
I did the cost analysis with my Diesel. I found that I would never recoup the initial investment or the additional mileage. The cost of service is prohibitively high and the mileage isn't that much better unless towing. The best part about diesels is their amazing resale value. I sold mine within 10 minutes of lisitng it and got everything I wanted for it.

That said.... justifying a diesel truck because of mileage is only an excuse. You drive these trucks because they're bada$$ and can haul a house if you wanted to. Theoretically the hard parts should last forever, too.

In the end, for me, it became tiring. I'm back to an SUV and am pretty convinced that I'll never drive another 3/4 ton truck unless I get a big toy hauler or trailer. It's just too much overkill for our boat and they suck as daily drivers (at least for my application).
I agree 100% and have been thinking about getting rid of my diesel for all the reasons you mention. Amazing how they are holding their value, on the other hand the gassers are skyrocketing in price as well.
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       01-13-2011, 11:06 AM Reply   
I've seen the contrary in the slightly used market. We are looking to pick up an 08 or newer Yukon or Tahoe and everyday that the gas prices increase the price of the used SUV goes down.

When gas goes up, more people make the move to get into a more efficient vehicle thus putting more SUV's on the market therefore driving the price lower.

New gassers just get more and more expensive every year.
Old    Chaun Keating (big_poppa_pump)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-13-2011, 12:09 PM Reply   
Stop heating your homes with my fuel and the costs will go down.

BTW, I don't justify my diesel because its any cheaper than a gasser. I justify it because it puts down 390HP and 750 ft-lbs of torque!
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       01-13-2011, 12:19 PM Reply   
Murphy, the SUV's suck wind when it comes to resale. I got killed on my super clean Tahoe when I sold it. The pick-ups seem to hold their value really well. The diesel pick-ups are amazing. It cost me 1/2 as much to own my F250 as it did to own my Tahoe, and I couldn't give the Tahoe away when I sold it.

Chaun, sounds like you're on the right track. The power is intoxicating. Nothing can touch that torque.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-13-2011, 12:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by big_poppa_pump View Post
BTW, I don't justify my diesel because its any cheaper than a gasser. I justify it because it puts down 390HP and 750 ft-lbs of torque!
Imagine how bad of mileage a gasser would get with those same numbers!
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-13-2011, 12:32 PM Reply   
I do all my own maintanence so no huge difference in cost there. Only use the dieael to tow so 6 mpg better than my gasser. Huge difference there. Empty with the overdrive unit if I did use it for a road trip it gets 24mpg. Gasser not even close. Gasser engine may make 250k if well taken care of. Diesel can make 500k to a million miles. Again not even close. And shear power and torque, forget about it. I will never own another full size gas truck period.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       01-13-2011, 12:42 PM Reply   
Yup... all depends on your intended use. I don't really ever own a vehicle past 100k (heck, I sold the F250 with 70k), so I'll never really see the high mileage benefits. I wish I could keep cars longer, but after about 5 years I'm ready for something new.

Even doing my own maintanence the 15 qts of oil, expensive cartridge filter and fuel filters every 15k added up.

If they'd put a nice 6 cyl diesel in a 1/2 ton I'd be all about it. I just don't need the 3/4 ton ride every day.
Old    Toad Froggy (ointment)      Join Date: Jun 2008       01-13-2011, 12:53 PM Reply   
I have 01 f250, I think when I first bought the truck, diesel was 1.37 a gallon. Then when dodge came out with the over sized quad cab, I almost made the jump based off looks alone. But I hesistated and glad I did, due to the diesel reaching 4 bucks a gallon. When prices where high I thought about downgrading to a eco car but when you add the car payment plus gas it still was going to cost the same as filling up my truck. I think I was spending roughly 400$ in gas a month, but no car payment. So now it's 2011 and I have 167k miles on it, so if it takes another 10 years to put that kind of mileage on it then it has paid for itself more than once. The new trucks are awesome, but rather not have a car payment so if I lose my job I wont lose my transportation. I actually hope SUV's keep going down in price, if gas spikes like they say then I should be able to purchase a heck of used SUV on the cheap.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       01-13-2011, 5:32 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyb View Post
Imagine how bad of mileage a gasser would get with those same numbers!
Well, 425 HP and 550 ft/lbs in a lifted 4x4 gets me 12.5 MPG empty and 10 MPG towing. 6000 lbs truck plus 23' Supra. Not great, but could be worse. You won't see 750 ft/lbs in a gasser without ridiculous displacement and even then it'd probably be a high RPM screamer not suited for towing.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-13-2011, 5:36 PM Reply   
Cory with those specs you have some serious mods done to the truck, and a disproportionate HP to TQ ratio for a gas motor. Must be a really short trip if you're getting 10mpg. Pretty high for a gasser with that much power towing.
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       01-13-2011, 6:25 PM Reply   
I actually got 25 mph with a 2005 dodge with a hemi and it had no problem hullin.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-13-2011, 6:47 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeshmoe View Post
I actually got 25 mph with a 2005 dodge with a hemi and it had no problem hullin.

Hahahahahaha. Good one!

Last edited by 05mobiuslsv; 01-13-2011 at 6:51 PM.
Old    Richard Coop (mendo247)      Join Date: Mar 2005       01-13-2011, 7:21 PM Reply   
I have the choice of three nice and completely different cars to commute in everyday. Duramax 2500 4x4, 4runner 4x4 and Accord 4cyl coupe. If I could afford it I would drive the Diesel every day...period. Love the power, the great ride Chevy offers and the interior comfort. Also enjoy feeling like I could push everyone out of my way if need be. 4runner second choice but now that gas is rising and predicted to go higher I see a hybrid in my near future lol .. I couldnt imagine not having my diesel p/u now. Long trips with the boat are sooo much easier.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       01-13-2011, 7:29 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
Cory with those specs you have some serious mods done to the truck, and a disproportionate HP to TQ ratio for a gas motor. Must be a really short trip if you're getting 10mpg. Pretty high for a gasser with that much power towing.
The truck originally had a small block and I went to a big block solely because towing with the 351 was terrible. Terrible acceleration, terrible MPG. Motor was built mainly for lower RPM torque. Ported iron heads, long tubes, dual plane intake, 750 DP, high compression at 9.7:1 static and dynamic puts it right on the edge for 93 octane. They key to MPG is high compression, high port velocity and low RPM. It's a delicate balance getting compression optimal for a heavy truck and towing. You have to avoid detonation and also keep enough higher RPM power for getting a heavy load up hills.

First time around I missed the ball on the cam as I wanted something that still pulled reasonably well at RPM. Well despite only being 262/268 on a 112 LSA the lobe profiles and ramp rates made it act bigger. Result was an on/off switch at 3000 RPM and pulled to 6500. It was a pain towing up hills as I'd have to downshift and keep it around 3000 to be smooth on the power. Swapped to a different cam which was a 262/270 but more mild and I now have a nice broad torque curve that comes on around 1500 RPM.

If I were to do a similar build but with MPG as a main goal I could probably squeeze another 3-5 MPG unloaded out of it. I'm actually really curious to see how a 545 would do on towing MPG with some minor changes in how I port the heads along with some Singh grooves and similar or higher compression, polished chambers, annular booster carb tuned for MPG, more timing at cruise and put in a stock height truck. With the torque of a 545 built like that it might be possible to drop the highway RPM even lower ( I turn about 2000 RPM at 70 MPH now) with an over/under box for more overdrive or more highway friendly axle ratios.

Building engines is a side hobby for me, makes a few bucks here and there. Very fun stuff with a fair amount of math and theory involved.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-13-2011, 7:47 PM Reply   
Ahh that's more like it. I figured you saying you had a 6k lb truck that it was a 1/2 ton and there was no way you had a big block in there, or any small block capeable of producing that hp/tq ratio. Sounds like a good setup! Wish I could build engines, just not in my skillset.
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       01-13-2011, 8:39 PM Reply   
nu bu, not a joke, when your only using 4 cylinders you get great mileage with this truck, can't wait till fuel hits four bucks so I might buy one.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-13-2011, 9:06 PM Reply   
Yeah my old dodge said that once when I was coasting down hill in neutral too. Sorry man I've owned a couple of these dodges and non of them get 25mph. Just because a car/truck can achieve a certain mpg for a brief period of time under ideal conditions doesn't mean that's what it averages. The average is what matters. You have an average for hyw driving and for city driving, neither are close to 25mpg. And don't believe the lie-o-meter in the console.
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       01-13-2011, 10:16 PM Reply   
I like gas myself. Ecoboost money burnin a hole in your pocket Nu Bu? No more $100 oil changes.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-14-2011, 6:16 AM Reply   
Well, I bought my 2005 dodge a year ago for 26k. It had 70something thousand miles on it, but it was loaded, 4x4, leather, bedliner, 5" magnaflow exhaust, CIA, Edge Juice programmer, 20' wheels, etc. I was pulling my boat with a 2002 z71 tahoe, which got 13mph driving around and 9mph towing. It was terrible. My CTS-V was getting around 15mph using premium and was depreciating rapidly. I sold the caddy and got most of my money back out of it and traded the tahoe in on the dodge. The truck now has 90k miles on it. I get 18mpg not towing and around 15-16mpg towing. I'm getting better mileage out of the dodge than I did out of either of my other vehicles, and due to the demand for the trucks with the high output 5.9, the truck will always hold a decent resale value. However, I plan on keeping this truck forever and using it as a tow rig until it explodes.

To me, buying a used diesel (pre smog control) is the way to go if you're wanting a vehicle that has a much greater potential to last a loooooong time and not absolutely kill you at the pump. Let the first guy take the depreciation hit.

Don't get me wrong, the truck doesn't exactly ride like a car, but I've got a 2.5 year old and another baby on the way. If some ass clown smashes into me, I feel like a big truck protects my family a little better than a midsized suv or sports sedan (unless i roll over I guess).
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-14-2011, 8:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bawshogg View Post
I like gas myself. Ecoboost money burnin a hole in your pocket Nu Bu? No more $100 oil changes.
I've never paid $100 for an oil change, even doing synthetic. But I do change my own oil.

I'm not one to keep vehicles a long time, so I'm resisting the urge to get rid of it.
Old    Bryan (carter13)      Join Date: Feb 2009       01-14-2011, 9:37 AM Reply   
I get a kick out of reading posts like this on all the different sites I am on. These trucks are made to tow and the MPG'S reflect this. If you want good MPG'S buy an econocar.
I was paying $4.89 a gallon for my diesel in the summer of 08 and went to Yellowstone from Portland Oregon averaging 10 MPG with my camper on. I paid around $850 in fuel for that trip. As they say boy's, if you wanna play you gotta pay.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       01-14-2011, 10:45 AM Reply   
For what it's worth.... For those that don't believe gassers can make power/torque like a diesel. Check out the twin turbo 6.0 that Mercedes is making. 620hp, 740lb/ft of torque. Turbos are the way of the future for all fuel types. The germans are onto it. Every new V8 5 and 7 series BMW comes with a twin turbo V8. Wicked. That and 7 or 8 speed gearboxes. Gas mileage and power.

Nothing beats the sound of a diesel when that turbo hits it's sweet spot. I also love the sound of a waste gate. I'm just a car guy at heart. I'll never not love Diesels. I just don't think they're packaged right for my current applications.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-14-2011, 10:56 AM Reply   
When you throw enough money at something you can make just about anything happen!
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       01-14-2011, 11:37 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by guido View Post
For what it's worth.... For those that don't believe gassers can make power/torque like a diesel. Check out the twin turbo 6.0 that Mercedes is making. 620hp, 740lb/ft of torque. Turbos are the way of the future for all fuel types. The germans are onto it. Every new V8 5 and 7 series BMW comes with a twin turbo V8. Wicked. That and 7 or 8 speed gearboxes. Gas mileage and power.
Forced induction will get you there. Those are impressive numbers from a small engine. Twin turbo adds extra cost and complexity, especially in most engine bays. Forced induction essentially gets you more displacement out of a small engine. One thing I'm not familiar with is forced induction on gas motors in heavy vehicles and towing applications. How do they respond to 10k lbs or more of total weight? Is detonation a big problem when loading them up? How far down does static and dynamic compression have to be to keep out of detonation?

As for German gearboxes... I don't like them. That's the only thing I've had trouble with on my tow pig. Aluminum cases flex a lot of break either on the end of the main case when the countershaft is forced away from the mainshaft or at the mounting pads on the tailshaft tend to shear. The reverse/5th design is a point of weakness. I'm considering a swap from the ZF to a NV. I think ZF just doesn't have much experience with truck transmissions and high HP/torque in a heavy vehicle/towing. They seem to make decent car transmissions.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       01-14-2011, 12:42 PM Reply   
Cory, man.... you're on it. Forced induction is amazing, but it does add a lot of complication in an engine bay. The new BMW rigs have the turbo in the valley of the motor. Cool set-up, but difficult/expensive to work on. We're going to find out how turbo's stack up to 10k payloads since ford has gone that direction on the ecoboost.

As for detonation problems... that's really a thing of the past with direct injection and completely flexible ignition mapping. The newer motors are achieving amazing numbers in part because they're running smaller turbo's and higher compression. Turbo lag is a thing of the past. Most of the new motors just feel like a bigger motor. They don't have any turbo whistle and the wastegates are silent. The torque is available immediately off idle.

The ZF gearboxes are great in their intended applications. Pushing them to tow may prove a bit much for a box with that many gears stuffed into such a tight package. I've been really amazed at how the 6 speed boxes hold up even when punished by the manufacture recomended service intervals (i.e. no service). I've got one in my Rover now and I'll be interested to see how it does. I plan on doing fluid/filter changes at 40k intervals.

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