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Old    Moe (nauti4life)      Join Date: Sep 2008       12-01-2010, 4:32 PM Reply   
Found this yesterday. I don't see anything here on WW. Any thoughts?

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/home/5...owertrain-deal
Old    Dan (hco)      Join Date: Jun 2006       12-01-2010, 4:41 PM Reply   
Hopefully in the next 10ish months ilmor can prove that their engines don't suck. Otherwise I can see mastercraft losing alot of sales.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       12-01-2010, 5:01 PM Reply   
Aren't MC and Ilmore owned by the same company? Doesn't sound like a big surprise to me.
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       12-01-2010, 5:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hco View Post
Hopefully in the next 10ish months ilmor can prove that their engines don't suck. Otherwise I can see mastercraft losing alot of sales.
I assure you Ilmors stuff is excellent, the problem is they can now add more into the initial price and parts because of the "exclusive" deal. Oh well, the only way I will own a MC or Nautique is used, I cannot jusify 85k+ for a 21 foot boat; regardless of the quality, engines, etc.
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       12-01-2010, 5:32 PM Reply   
I think the jury is still out on Ilmor in this application.

They have been making boat engines for a long time, so that is on their side, but the engines they make have been used in 'go fast' boats, not towboats, and there may be some unforeseen complications because of this. I would not want one of the first, but by 2012, I would be all over it.

And this should not surprise anyone, since the companies are financially related. It makes good business sense to buy engines from yourself. I will be curious to see if this further increases the price, however.
Old    WakePowell Chris (epic1)      Join Date: Oct 2006       12-01-2010, 5:39 PM Reply   
Did not think MC.s could get more expensive, but I cant see how they are going to be cheaper.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       12-01-2010, 6:44 PM Reply   
Hard to get 100k with the same power plant that's in a 40 k boat. I'm sure this will add race engines to the MC line up maybe they can be the first towboat company to cross the 200k mark?
Old    Jason (jason95gt)      Join Date: May 2006       12-01-2010, 6:53 PM Reply   
They already have boats over $200k. But if you actually research Ilmor and the things they have accomplished they are way beyond just go fast boats. Everything so far in just the few months they have had to prove themselves has been better than the Indmars they are replacing. They are also only a couple hundred $'s more than there Indmar counterpart.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       12-01-2010, 8:12 PM Reply   
I am not an engineer, nor do I claim to know how to build a better engine, but from my experience with Mastercrafts, Indmar has been their weakest link. Can't wait to take one of these Ilmor's for a spin. If they are half as smooth as a PCM, it was a great move by Mastercraft.
Old    Diggs (pdxWAKE) (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       12-02-2010, 7:11 AM Reply   
This could be a great move or a detrimental move. We will see how it plays out.
If the motor turns out to be all that, then it will be great and really separate them from their competitors. If there are issues, it will have the opposite effect.
I also wonder about all the people that buy Mastercrafts, that don't have a Mastercraft dealer close by. Are there a lot of shops that have qualified mechanics to work on Ilmor or are you gonna be forced to go to a MC dealer?

Will be interesting to see it all play out. I have always been super super happy with Indamar products in my Supra's and would have a hard time changing unless it was a tried and proven success in this particular application.
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       12-02-2010, 7:19 AM Reply   
They are going to build a V8 based engine so it's from an automotive base and some parts will be easy to get. But service on a small engine base will be trickier.
I would not question Ilmor's ability to to a really great job. They have an exceptional skill level there. I would only see them pull out if the cash flow does not sustain the research. 3000 engines a year for Mastercraft would make it hard to justify starting an engine program. I would think they must have other plans.
It should be worrying for PCM and Indmar.
Old    SamIngram            12-02-2010, 8:34 AM Reply   
Quote:
They have been making boat engines for a long time, so that is on their side, but the engines they make have been used in 'go fast' boats, not towboats, and there may be some unforeseen complications because of this. I would not want one of the first, but by 2012, I would be all over it.
I'm sure they can figure out how to change a cam...
Old    Shawn B (ShawnB)      Join Date: Oct 2010       12-02-2010, 3:18 PM Reply   
Full disclosure, our 2011 X25 that is on order will have an Ilmor 5.7 in it. Our 2004 X2 has an Indmar MCX with ~900 hours on it and has only minor issues.

Reasons for going with Ilmor (aside from the fact that the brand is moving on to Ilmor)
- More HP/Torque
- Better accessory design which will lead to easier maintenance
---- Alternator located at the top of the motor rather the bottom
---- Idler pulleys for the serp belt
---- Top-mounted oil filter with reservoir
---- Easy access to starter
- Even before this formal announcement it was pretty obvious that Ilmor was the future for MC based on the conversations I had during the factory tour.

For someone who plans on owning the boat past the warranty, these kinds of things make all the difference. If the engine is a lemon during the warranty period then my opinion will change, of course, but if all goes to plan this will be an easier engine to own in the 500-1000 hour range than the MCX was. For the less than 1k extra it cost over the MCX it was an decision.
Old    Lionel (lionel)      Join Date: Nov 2005       12-02-2010, 3:29 PM Reply   
Full disclosure, I own a MC too. Sounds like someones been drinking the Kool-aid ^^^. Not sure how I feel about this. An exclusive deal that hurts the consumer with a higher price? Could be brilliant, could be a bad decision?? Only time will tell. Shawn, you getting a heater or shower?

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/...9&postcount=45
Old    Shawn B (ShawnB)      Join Date: Oct 2010       12-02-2010, 4:43 PM Reply   
I saw that post about the shower and heater shut-off. Strange, I agree. Seems like the garden hose solution would probably work but I guess we'll have to wait and see when the boat is delivered.
Old    Jason (jason95gt)      Join Date: May 2006       12-02-2010, 5:11 PM Reply   
The Ilmor motors are only a couple hundred more than the Indmar.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       12-02-2010, 5:27 PM Reply   
If what Shawn says in the main difference... I don't see hte big deal. I don't exactly change alternators and starters often. A remote filter can be more convenient but changing oil isn't rocket science and don't do it but maybe twice a year. I don't see the advantage for most people. I assume it'll be a SBC like most wake boats. a SBC is a SBC. They're dime a dozen and cheap to build even for mild to moderate performance applications.

No news here as far as I'm concerned, just a change in engine manufacturer and probable price increase. Most folks who buy these boats brand new won't notice the difference in price or engine as they have enough money that a $1000 or less swing isn't a deal breaker and probably don't do much work on their own toys anyhow.
Old    Eagle Jackson (eaglejackson)      Join Date: Oct 2004       12-03-2010, 10:18 AM Reply   
FWIW, MC and Ilmor used to have but no longer do have a common owner, namely Penske. Penske no longer owns MC but does Ilmor.

Perhaps this deal was put in motion during common ownership but presently they are separate.
Old    Jack (miljack)      Join Date: Feb 2006       12-07-2010, 7:57 PM Reply   
Eagle,
are you sure about Penske's group selling off MC? It must be a recent move...
Old    Eagle Jackson (eaglejackson)      Join Date: Oct 2004       12-09-2010, 3:54 PM Reply   
Yep, Penske's out, Wayzata is in. Penske is close to Wayzata as they are both partners in Penske Trucking.
http://www.boating-industry.com/output.cfm?id=2207269
Old    Kevin K (supra)      Join Date: Aug 2002       12-11-2010, 3:08 PM Reply   
Wonder why Indmar has made no comments, maybe there is more to this change of engines then meets the eye... Huh?
Old    Matt Crowe (crowem87)      Join Date: Nov 2005       12-13-2010, 6:35 PM Reply   
Personally from my experiences I can see a few plus' to the new engine set-up assuming it is truly only a "few hundred" more.

First off my family owns a 2001 x-30 and we have had crazy amounts of issues with alternators with the LTR engine (including the recalled bracket....) However, we have also had issues with ballast leaking from time to time and taking a while to find the leak, as well as faulty auto-bilges that always seemed to become an issue when you least expected it. The reason I am filling you in on this is because I have ruined a few alternators due to water getting in the bilge and the belt flinging water all over everything. Most likely the alternator/starter will be better protected from instances like this.

Also, if all of these things (alternator, starter, oil filter and reservoir) are as easily accessible on the ilmore motors I can think of one reason that paying "a few hundred-$1000 more" may be worth it. Depending on the set-up it could greatly reduce the labor time a tech. may spend changing an alternator, oil, or starter. I can see shaving off even 30 minutes on each visit due to this over the time of a quality boats life should equal a savings much higher than the initial cost of the motor.

I will be interested to see how these engines perform, as well as if their "added features" over the traditional indmar will help the boats retain their resale better. Just my opinions of course!..Personally, I want an affordable diesel option.
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       12-13-2010, 11:12 PM Reply   
Had an interesting discussion with a buddy of mine that had just returned from one of the dealer meetings (not the Mastercraft dealer meeting). A representative from PCM spoke for 2 hours about PCM motors, his opinion was that Mastercraft has made a huge mistake. My opinion is different. These days most of the boats have nearly identical powerplants sourced directly from GM with a few minor ECM tweaks.
http://www.gm.com/vehicles/innovatio...ne_Engines.pdf.
Then they simply add exhaust manifolds, raw water pumps, alternators, remote oil filters, transmissions, etc. My opinion is that these mariner add ons are non-critical items so it really doesn't matter who does the final marinizing to the motor. I am also of the opinion that Indmar and PCM are "hiding" true performance curves for these motors for some reason. I suspect the reason is that they don't want people to realize that the base model motors perform just as well as the upgrade motors until they get above 4,000 RPMs. Of course I could be very wrong on this but I still don't know why they won't publish a dyno chart.

Hopefully Illmor will offer the 6.2 LS3 marine unit as an option in a Mastercraft. Since I still slalom, barefoot, and wakeboard I demand more out of most motors than they can deliver. I may be in the minority here but I could really appreciate a solid 43MPH pull out of my boat, that extra 5 MPH is the difference between a nice one-foot barefoot run or a faceplant caused from a sinking foot.

I'm not sure how much longer GM will continue producing the aging 5.7 but I've got to believe that it's not for much longer. I don't know if these old motors are even offered in any cars or trucks?
Old    mojo            12-14-2010, 12:46 AM Reply   
well they also have their own fuel pumps, alignment mounts, and some other internal parts.
Old    Jason (jason95gt)      Join Date: May 2006       12-14-2010, 8:17 AM Reply   
Mikeski, you don't need the 6.2l ilmor as all the tests with the 5.7 and 6L out perform the Indmar in acceleration, top speed and fuel consumption. The only thing Ilmor doesn't offer right now is a supercharged LSA version, but now the exclusive agreement they will have the LSA or something equivalent.
Old    corey king (snowboardcorey)      Join Date: Jan 2004       12-14-2010, 9:45 AM Reply   
Ask and yee shall receive! ILMOR and MC have a naturally aspirated 6.2 LS3 engine!!! http://www.ilmor.com/marine/mv8specs.html this will replace the 8.1 in the lineup.

For MN peeps we'll have a 6.2 in our X-45 at the Minneapolis Boat Show.
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       12-14-2010, 11:30 AM Reply   
Mojo,

I would be highly surprised if any of the marinizers do anything different INTERNALLY. Can you be more specific? In my motor speak internally means something like a camshaft, crankshaft, pushrod, lifter, valve or other component included in the long block assembly. Not things like fuel pumps or motor mounts.

Corey,
The only mistake I see is the LS3 having cast iron exhaust manifolds, I believe the current cat manifolds from Indmar are aluminum? On my PCM I replaced the OEM manifolds with Eddie Marine high flow aluminum units and very happy with the results (my boat is pre-cat). Still a great looking marine motor, and would likely be my choice if I was in the market for a new boat.

After doing some research last night I found that the GM 5.7L mill has not been installed in a new GM vehicle since 2004, so it's days are surely numbered.
Old    George Aslinger (mobv)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-15-2010, 3:55 PM Reply   
I was at the Performance Racing Industry Show in Orlando last weekend. Illmor had a booth with their motorcycle, car and marine race engines. Talked with a couple of the engineers who work in Michigan headquarters. They are excited to have a "production" model and a plant in NC to produce engines for higher volume applications. They have been producing offshore race engines for several years.
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