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Old    Baitkiller (baitkiller)      Join Date: Jan 2010       11-11-2010, 5:46 AM Reply   
Just attended a Yanmar Dealers meeting yesterday and got advanced warning of things to come. It looks great but smells expensive. Yanmar has stopped production of the legendary 6LP series in-line six as Toyota has 86'd the block production. The 6LP block is primarily a Land Cruiser engine with Yanmar, Yamaha and Nani maranizing a few for marine use. The new Landcruiser engine is a 4.5 liter V-8 twin turbo making north of 350HP (rumored at 370)and ungodly amounts of torque. She also weighs in at <1,000 lbs. Early reports from test boats are that the thing is the smoothest running engine, gas or diesel ever seen. The inside Iggy I heard was that Yanamar has locked in all marine applications, nixing Yamaha and Nani. The other Iggy I heard was that Yanmar is aggressively going after ski boat OEMs for production deals.
Public release is slated for the Miami show in Feb 2011. The two test motors have 800+ hours pushing around a 31 Blackifin with no issues.
Should be very cool but the 6LP was around 25K for a base 315hp engine. This one smells a little more spendy.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       11-11-2010, 8:27 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by baitkiller View Post
Just attended a Yanmar Dealers meeting yesterday and got advanced warning of things to come. It looks great but smells expensive. Yanmar has stopped production of the legendary 6LP series in-line six as Toyota has 86'd the block production. The 6LP block is primarily a Land Cruiser engine with Yanmar, Yamaha and Nani maranizing a few for marine use. The new Landcruiser engine is a 4.5 liter V-8 twin turbo making north of 350HP (rumored at 370)and ungodly amounts of torque. She also weighs in at <1,000 lbs. Early reports from test boats are that the thing is the smoothest running engine, gas or diesel ever seen. The inside Iggy I heard was that Yanamar has locked in all marine applications, nixing Yamaha and Nani. The other Iggy I heard was that Yanmar is aggressively going after ski boat OEMs for production deals.
Public release is slated for the Miami show in Feb 2011. The two test motors have 800+ hours pushing around a 31 Blackifin with no issues.
Should be very cool but the 6LP was around 25K for a base 315hp engine. This one smells a little more spendy.
Sounds like it will be a tough year for them then, I wish them luck .
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       11-11-2010, 8:30 AM Reply   
I have gotten to the point where I have about as much faith that a wake/ski boat company will manufacture an affordable diesel powered boat as I do that congress will reduce the power, scope and spending of the federal government! I still have hope, but the realist inside of me knows it's never gonna happen
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       11-11-2010, 8:53 AM Reply   
Cool. I love the 6LP in my mom's boat. Would not want it in my wakeboard boat though.
Old    Jason (jason95gt)      Join Date: May 2006       11-11-2010, 12:05 PM Reply   
Adam, just you wait. There is a couple motors coming down the pipe that will change your thinking!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       11-11-2010, 4:18 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by baitkiller View Post
Just attended a Yanmar Dealers meeting yesterday and got advanced warning of things to come. It looks great but smells expensive. Yanmar has stopped production of the legendary 6LP series in-line six as Toyota has 86'd the block production. The 6LP block is primarily a Land Cruiser engine with Yanmar, Yamaha and Nani maranizing a few for marine use. The new Landcruiser engine is a 4.5 liter V-8 twin turbo making north of 350HP (rumored at 370)and ungodly amounts of torque. She also weighs in at <1,000 lbs. Early reports from test boats are that the thing is the smoothest running engine, gas or diesel ever seen. The inside Iggy I heard was that Yanamar has locked in all marine applications, nixing Yamaha and Nani. The other Iggy I heard was that Yanmar is aggressively going after ski boat OEMs for production deals.
Public release is slated for the Miami show in Feb 2011. The two test motors have 800+ hours pushing around a 31 Blackifin with no issues.
Should be very cool but the 6LP was around 25K for a base 315hp engine. This one smells a little more spendy.
25k sounds pretty expesive. My dad swapped the 440 chrysler's in his old Tolly with those engine's I think and I think he paid about 20k/ea with transmissions for his.
Old    Brett Treiber (pc_sledge)      Join Date: Jan 2006       11-11-2010, 7:02 PM Reply   
This has to be the immediate future of towboat power plants... I wish they were as easy to get as a diesel pick up. The newer limoor gas engines that MC introduced put out plenty of horses but the lower end torque readings need to double in my opinion and the only way to accomplish that is via diesel while still keeping acceptable fuel economy.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-11-2010, 8:13 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pc_sledge View Post
This has to be the immediate future of towboat power plants... I wish they were as easy to get as a diesel pick up. The newer limoor gas engines that MC introduced put out plenty of horses but the lower end torque readings need to double in my opinion and the only way to accomplish that is via diesel while still keeping acceptable fuel economy.
if you look at diesel numbers, the torque # is almost ALWAYS the HP doubled....... lets get them diesels in

i still dont get why they are so expensive....25k for just the motor? i couldnt find any numbers with a quick search, but im pretty sure you can get a powerstroke/cummins/duramax crate engine for cheaper than that.

Why would a marine adapted diesel be more expensive than a marine adapted gasser? most gas engines are just automotive engines with different cooling systems, exhaust, and marine intakes, right? i see a serious disconnect here...
Old    882001 (882001)      Join Date: Nov 2003       11-12-2010, 4:56 AM Reply   
wow that is spendy! my next project may just be a nautique 2001 v drive with a 7.3 or 5.9 cummins, i will have the same or less in the whole project that the price of that motor.http://houston.craigslist.org/pts/2051212281.html
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       11-12-2010, 6:29 AM Reply   
Jason, I hope you are right. I would be the first one in the door if I could get a diesel in the X25, affordably!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       11-12-2010, 10:19 AM Reply   
They are expensive but in the yacht world you get almost every penny back in resale. I am not sure about that in a wakeboat though. My dad's Tolly immediatly became worth 35-40k more with the Yanmar's in them and he burned about half the fuel of the 440 Chryslers. If the upgrade to a good diesel was let's say 5 or 10k more than the ~400hp 6.0L it may very well be worth the upgrade. Especially if you use your boat a ton. The problem I see is getting your money back on resale as diesels are definately not the norm in wakeboats and you may not get any of the money back in resale.
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       11-12-2010, 12:41 PM Reply   
Can I finally get a diesel in an SUV.............
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       11-12-2010, 1:43 PM Reply   
Neat idea if a diesel wake boat would work well, but I wouldn't buy one. Don't know much about diesels and especially new fangled computer controlled diesels. I'd be worried about repair costs on something like that. If it was a simple mechanical diesel like an IDI 7.3 I might consider it, but even for my truck I went with a big block gas motor over a diesel mainly because of the learning curve to work on a diesel and wasn't worth it since I don't tow enough weight to where a diesel would make much difference. Simple always wins in my book.

I also wonder how the low RPM of diesels would affect top speed. Probably not a big deal for most, but I do like to ride around sometimes if I have no crew, or hunt for flat water if it's windy. Also curious about smoke. I know these days diesels have all sort of power and economy robbing emissions stuff that can make them not put out any soot, but that adds to cost and complexity, and these emissions components to make them clean are not cheap or particularly reliable.

I think most folks would avoid a diesel in a wake boat, like most avoid them in cars. Most people have at least a basic understanding of how a gas engine works and could troubleshoot basic no-start problems before handing it over to a mechanic, not so with diesels. Just uncertainty, added costs, and prospect of more expensive repairs would turn a lot off from it. I put diesels in wake boats somewhere short (more chance of acceptance) of that Epic hybrid. Cool idea, but really expensive to buy initially and really expensive to repair, along with uncertainty since it's new.
Old    WakePowell Chris (epic1)      Join Date: Oct 2006       11-12-2010, 6:19 PM Reply   
what would differ in a no start situation between diesel and gas? diesel has no spark plugs, but its still an I.C.E. Suck Squish bang blow right?
I think the problem is computers. A diesel with computer controlls is going to be hard to work on like a gasser with a computer.
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       11-15-2010, 8:51 AM Reply   
Less possibilities for a fuel explosion but recovering the upfront cost is not so appealing. Additionally, a lot of people cannot refuel on many lakes. Right now I'll leave the diesels for the big boats.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-15-2010, 11:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by srock View Post
Less possibilities for a fuel explosion but recovering the upfront cost is not so appealing. Additionally, a lot of people cannot refuel on many lakes. Right now I'll leave the diesels for the big boats.
basically zero possibility. you can throw a match in a bucket of diesel and nothing will happen. I never fill up on the lake due to the fact that its insanely expensive, and typically watered down and old. but if there is a need, someone will eventually fill it.

The lower RPM of a diesel comment, isnt necessarily true, the lower RPMs you see on the big diesels in trucks, like the powerstroke/duramax/cummins are because they have a longer stroke, so the motor cants safely spin at the high rpms. same thing would happen with a gasser with a long stroke.
one solution would be a continuously variable transmission....teamed with a turbo diesel infinite gearing, and you could use a motor with a lower redline (has more torque) to run the boat effectively. INSANE low end, and efficient high end.

as far as the smell argument, yea it stinks but gas exhaust doesnt smell much better.. and how often do you really smell the gas exhaust? even when sitting still with the motor running, i dont have a huge deal with the smell unless the wind is just right.

the black "smoke" is a particulate, hence the new DPF (diesel particulate filter) on the new trucks. So you wont have a black cloud following you around.
Old    JUST-IN-TIME (justintime)      Join Date: Mar 2009       11-22-2010, 11:22 PM Reply   
a lot of go-fast boats use turbo d motors with sub surface drives

nortech
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       11-23-2010, 5:29 AM Reply   
You can throw a lit match in a bucket of gasoline too and it won't blow up either. But yea, diesel boats don't blow up.

Yes, the diesel will smell, it is nothing like a gasoline engine in a boat. Just go for a ride in a diesel boat and you will see.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-23-2010, 12:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
You can throw a lit match in a bucket of gasoline too and it won't blow up either. But yea, diesel boats don't blow up.

Yes, the diesel will smell, it is nothing like a gasoline engine in a boat. Just go for a ride in a diesel boat and you will see.
The flashpoint of gasoline is -45 degrees F...which means the match will light the gasoline unless you have the fluid at below -45 degrees...
The flashpoint of diesel is 143 degrees F....which means the match will just be put out, unless you have the fluid above 143 degrees.

"Every liquid has a vapor pressure, which is a function of that liquid's temperature. As the temperature increases, the vapor pressure increases. As the vapor pressure increases, the concentration of evaporated flammable liquid in the air increases. Hence, temperature determines the concentration of evaporated flammable liquid in the air. " -wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point

sorry man, you cant throw a match into a bucket of gasoline and have it not blow up, unless the gasoline is at -45 degrees... but you CAN throw a match in a bucket of diesel and it will not explode. that is why diesels run via compression ignition, not a spark.


Go stick your nose in a gasoline engines exhaust, and then in a diesel engines exhaust.. niether smell pleasant. how often do you sit with your boat just idling? If thats when your worried about smelling the diesel, turn it off. Only one time have I been able to smell the exhaust while surfing/being in the boat while moving, and it was when the wind and speed were just perfect. All im saying is that neither smell is desirable, and the smell of diesel alone should not warrant the dismissal of the engine in a boat. The smell of diesel has actually been improving, especially with the new Low Sulfur Diesel #2 (which is all you can buy in the US at a gas station)
For a purpose built wakeboat, which would be running large amount of ballast, and people, a diesel would be perfect due to the higher efficiency and torque. team that with a CVT and you have a boat with an infinite gear ratio, simplistic transmission with a motor with the torque to allow for sustained higher speeds with much lower RPM's which limits fuel consumption. with the new advancements in the technology behind them, they run insanely quiet and can produce big power numbers with minimal upgrades and no flume of black smoke.

I have yet to hear one significant reason for not putting diesels in wakeboats other than the price.

Last edited by ilikebeaverandboats; 11-23-2010 at 12:10 PM.
Old    Ally (alcarlaw1)      Join Date: Jun 2007       12-09-2010, 5:52 AM Reply   
I can't understand why in the US there is such a price tag on a diesel engine. In Europe the majority of cars and SUV's are diesel, the cost difference when buying a new car is less than $2000, and you recoup that amount back anyway and the resale value of the car is far stronger.

Diesel engines have moved on alot, my Audi has a 3.0l turbo diesel, putting out 270hp and around 400lbft torque, and still gives my 40mpg average and 60mph in 7 seconds. THere is next to no smoke unless you have got your foot welded to the floor and then only momentarily until the turbo spins up.

I would love to see a diesel engine in a wakeboat,. Mastercraft have been importing some with VW diesel engines I believe...
Old    WakePowell Chris (epic1)      Join Date: Oct 2006       12-09-2010, 8:01 AM Reply   
diesels in the U.S. are 6L bigger? that has to have some thing to do with the price diff from europe to here. I do not remember how much more out tdi jetta was than a 2.5 gasser. There has to be a production number issue with the cost over here. How many 09 jetta tdi's were sold over here? fifty thousand? How many tdi's were sold in the durpe market? The 2.0 tdi is used in four or five venicles over there. Here its in a jetta and an audi. They can drive down cost by uping production? What kind of emisions contrios doies europe have? DO they have dpf filters and urea injection systems? that cant be cheap.
Old     (HighVoltage)      Join Date: Aug 2010       12-09-2010, 8:38 AM Reply   
There is a reason why the engine in the Epic Hybrid Wakeboard boat is a diesel. Its also tuned to only run at its optimal efficiency based on brake specific fuel consumption mapping.
Old    Ally (alcarlaw1)      Join Date: Jun 2007       12-09-2010, 1:16 PM Reply   
I think all new diesel cars over here have DPM filters. It all comes down to marketing, in Europe the diesel engine is king, in the US, big V8's will always win.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-09-2010, 1:46 PM Reply   
"sorry man, you cant throw a match into a bucket of gasoline and have it not blow up, unless the gasoline is at -45 degrees."

That is not entirely accurate. Gasoline's flash point is -45 degrees, meaning that it will emit combustable vapors at that temp. While I would not recommend tossing a lit match into a bucket of gas, it is not 100% certain combustion because the temp is above the flash point.

Do you remember when the Mythbusters were dropping cigarette butts into pools of gas? They never got it to light and ended with the myth being: Plausible.
Old    John (summerobsession)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-09-2010, 1:56 PM Reply   
The price seems high, but what do they charge for a similar performing gas motor? I would be interested in the up charge price, not just sticker price.
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       12-09-2010, 2:18 PM Reply   
$85.00 to change the oil in a jetta tdi
Old    Ally (alcarlaw1)      Join Date: Jun 2007       12-10-2010, 4:51 AM Reply   
but you get 15,000 - 20,000 miles till the next oil change...
Old    WakePowell Chris (epic1)      Join Date: Oct 2006       12-10-2010, 7:02 AM Reply   
09 tdi is a 10k oil change interval. I like it.
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       12-10-2010, 7:50 AM Reply   
It only costs me $45 for the oil and filter in my 2006 Jetta TDI. I change it myself in about 20 mins.

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