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Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       10-19-2010, 6:51 PM Reply   
I installed a petcock drain on both sides of my block to make winterization much easier. Its a very simple mod that makes draining the block easy, and once done you dont have to worry about cross threading the knock sensor plugs every year when re-installing. With this setup you can drain the block in about 3 minutes, which includes opening and closing the petcock valve.

I picked up the parts at a local Marine store, unfortunately I cant remember what size thread it is. Easy way to do this is to take off the knock sensor, remove the plug and take it with you to match up the threads. The picture should show you all the parts you need. Make sure and use teflon tape on all threads to prevent any leakage. It has worked great for the last couple years with no problems.

The picture I posted is the side I ran my hot water shower line off of, this denotes the red line coming off the cross connector. The only thing you MUST do is keep the knock sensor in-line with the block. DO NOT run it off the side of the T or cross or else your motor will start running poorly. If you do not have a knock sensor on your motor, disregard this. In this case with no knock sensor you would only need an elbow, rather than a "T" fitting.

Hope this helps, if you have any questions please ask!

Cheers!

*** After looking at the picture, it looks like 1/4" NPT, but to make sure bring the plug down with you. All of these fittings can be found at your local hardware store.
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Last edited by fman; 10-19-2010 at 6:54 PM.
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-19-2010, 8:54 PM Reply   
My only concern with that setup would be that the knock sensor is now mounted on a hollow tube instead of into the cast block. This may create some issues with what the sensor "hears". The sensor is designed to in essence "protect" the motor from deteonation. When it senses a knock, or preignition it takes calculated timing out in attempt to combat it. You may find that your modification will interfere with abilty to sense knock. There is a reason they are always mounted solidly to the engine block and not 2" away. Otherwise a very clean mod. Nice job.

Last edited by bawshogg; 10-19-2010 at 8:57 PM.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-19-2010, 9:05 PM Reply   
Sounds like a great idea but that will probably seriously screw with your boat. The ECM relies on the knock sensors for proper timing and such, they are supposed to be touching the block. Might want to talk it over with your dealer or call up the engine manufacturer and get their input.
Old    Kyle (RidingTheNW)      Join Date: Apr 2010       10-19-2010, 9:08 PM Reply   
The other issue is that if you are boating in an area where there is sand and shallow areas where you have to drive, that stuff can get sucked up into the motor and will plug the drain holes. If you drain them you may think they are empty, but actually the sand is blocking the water from coming out. If that happens you will get freeze damage. You have to be able to poke the hole to make sure its clear so it drains all the way.
Old    Bill K (bill_airjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-19-2010, 9:13 PM Reply   
I had a similar setup on a 94 MC 205 with the throttle body 350 in it. Never had an issue in the 5 or 6 yrs I used it.

I heard from a few guys that rust may build up inside the adapter, or even inside the block. So every few years I would pull the entire thing apart & clean it out. Never really found a lot.

My current boat has a Monsoon in it. The shower is hooked to one side of the engine block & has easy to remove by hand twist off connectors. The knock sensor is in the other side, but I have never really threaded it in to the block very much..... maybe 3 or 4 turns at most. Occasionally I will need to use a pair of channel lock pliers to remove it, but it comes off very easy. Typically it comes off by hand.

BTW, I live in the NW & will "winterize" the boat probably 10 or 15 times in the spring, winter & fall. So getting that process down to a few minutes has been very important.
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       10-19-2010, 9:37 PM Reply   
Prior to performing the modification it had been discussed with a mechanic, said it should not be a problem. I have been running the setup for the past two seasons (230 hours) and my boat has never missed a beat at all different elevations, ambient temperatures, etc. So I am going to have to believe he knew what he was talking about. I would think by now I would have experienced some problems. However, if you do not run the knock sensor in line with the block, you will have problems. The knock sensor needs to be mounted as shown in the picture.

My brother in law is also using this same setup on his '07 MC X-15 and has never had any problems either. We did this mod together when we installed our hot water showers.

Last edited by fman; 10-19-2010 at 9:42 PM.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-19-2010, 9:41 PM Reply   
I was wanting to do something similar with the knock sensors and my dealer said big no no and not to touch the knock sensors. Glad it's working out for you though.
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       10-19-2010, 9:44 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
I was wanting to do something similar with the knock sensors and my dealer said big no no and not to touch the knock sensors. Glad it's working out for you though.
Of course they dont want you to do it, it would make winterization to easy and they would not be able to charge you the $400 to drain your block, add fuel stabilizer, and change your oil!
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-19-2010, 9:48 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fman View Post
Prior to performing the modification it had been discussed with a mechanic, said it should not be a problem. I have been running the setup for the past two seasons (230 hours) and my boat has never missed a beat at all different elevations, ambient temperatures, etc. So I am going to have to believe he knew what he was talking about. I would think by now I would have experienced some problems. However, if you do not run the knock sensor in line with the block, you will have problems. The knock sensor needs to be mounted as shown in the picture.

My brother in law is also using this same setup on his '07 MC X-15 and has never had any problems either. We did this mod together when we installed our hot water showers.
No sweat, If it works for ya , cool. Like I said looks good. Only concern would be in a boat you will never hear, or feel the preignition unless it is really really bad! When it happens it has potential to cause major damage, holes in pistons, or better yet shattered insulators on the spark plugs. Porceline is one of the hardest substances next to diamonds. It will wreak havoc on pistons and cylinder walls. Not saying it will happen to you, but the sensor is not going to be as effective in recognizing the preignition the way you have it mounted, and that will affect the ECM's ability to protect the motor from damage should it become an issue.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-19-2010, 10:05 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fman View Post
Of course they dont want you to do it, it would make winterization to easy and they would not be able to charge you the $400 to drain your block, add fuel stabilizer, and change your oil!
I do all that myself anyways and I'm good friends with the service manager. Don't think that's why.
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       10-19-2010, 10:16 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by RidingTheNW View Post
The other issue is that if you are boating in an area where there is sand and shallow areas where you have to drive, that stuff can get sucked up into the motor and will plug the drain holes. If you drain them you may think they are empty, but actually the sand is blocking the water from coming out. If that happens you will get freeze damage. You have to be able to poke the hole to make sure its clear so it drains all the way.
Sorry my friend, you lost me on this one. When you open the valve, water will start to come out. If it was ever clogged it would be evident immediately.
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       10-19-2010, 10:19 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bawshogg View Post
No sweat, If it works for ya , cool. Like I said looks good. Only concern would be in a boat you will never hear, or feel the preignition unless it is really really bad! When it happens it has potential to cause major damage, holes in pistons, or better yet shattered insulators on the spark plugs. Porceline is one of the hardest substances next to diamonds. It will wreak havoc on pistons and cylinder walls. Not saying it will happen to you, but the sensor is not going to be as effective in recognizing the preignition the way you have it mounted, and that will affect the ECM's ability to protect the motor from damage should it become an issue.
I was hesitant at first, but my brother in law is a total motor/gearhead and said there would be no problems. Seeing his '07 MC X-15 and my '08 22 SSV have had no problems, I would think its okay. Would not recommend it to anyone if they dont feel comfortable doing it. I know some of the older boats dont have the kock sensors, so this would be less of a concern in that situation.
Old    Bill K (bill_airjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-19-2010, 10:24 PM Reply   
We've had this kind of discussion before about this mod. And it met resistance then too. Just guys who are being cautious with their expensive toys.

But I learned about the mod from some old timers who worked with Herb when he started O'brien years ago. They were doing it to their boats on Sammamish back then (1980s & 90s). In the waterfront condos I lived in there were like a 1/2 dozen of us that had the mod on various boats, MC, Supra, Nautique, etc. It was just a trick we used to be able to winterize the boat while sitting on the boat lift, or on the ramp. We never had issues with it.... even after years of doing it with a ton of different boats.
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-19-2010, 10:42 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill_airjunky View Post
We've had this kind of discussion before about this mod. And it met resistance then too. Just guys who are being cautious with their expensive toys.

But I learned about the mod from some old timers who worked with Herb when he started O'brien years ago. They were doing it to their boats on Sammamish back then (1980s & 90s). In the waterfront condos I lived in there were like a 1/2 dozen of us that had the mod on various boats, MC, Supra, Nautique, etc. It was just a trick we used to be able to winterize the boat while sitting on the boat lift, or on the ramp. We never had issues with it.... even after years of doing it with a ton of different boats.
I would see no proplem with it on the older boats without knock sensors. Lot's of gear heads still don't understand what all the electronics on newer vehicles actually do. I fully understand them and would not do this mod on my own. My Indmar has dual knock sensors on both sides of the block, cat motor.
Old    Bryce (brycejb328)      Join Date: Aug 2009       10-20-2010, 7:33 AM Reply   
I would definantly advise against this. I come from a industry where knock sensor's are very widely used and this particular set up is definantly hampering the ability of the knock sensor to function properly. The knock sensor creates a voltage when it senses a knock, with it being mounted like this its kinda like a doctor trying to listen to a heart beat without putting the scope on the body.

Any boat that you wouldn't have to move the knock sensor this seems like a great idea.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-20-2010, 9:40 AM Reply   
Nice setup! If you have 230 hours on it, it's kind of tough to argue that it's not working properly. If anything, I would think that it would possibly amplify knock.
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-20-2010, 9:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyb View Post
Nice setup! If you have 230 hours on it, it's kind of tough to argue that it's not working properly. If anything, I would think that it would possibly amplify knock.
Amplification of knock is NOT what you want. What happens when knock is amplified timing is retarted and performance is sacrificed. Done argueing
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-20-2010, 10:53 AM Reply   
Is it really that hard to take a wrench and remove your knock sensor and re-install it without cross - threading it? We are not talking about soft metals like copper or aluminum....were are talking about cast iron.

Seriously - I can winterize my boat in less time than that without a potential modification that may result in the above referenced problems.
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       10-20-2010, 11:09 AM Reply   
The Supra engine access is terrible, there is very little room to get into the lower engine area, this is why I did this. Again, if people dont feel comfortable doing it, I would not recommend it. I also did not mention the engine is the CAT-ETX with two knock sensors on it (one on each side).
I will continue to run it, motor has been flawless for the past couple seasons. If I ever start throwing codes, this could be something to look into.

Guess I am old school, if it isnt broke, dont fix it.
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-20-2010, 11:31 AM Reply   
Truth be told - Have a direct drive sooooo it is super easy!!!!

If it works...it works...and always be ready for I told you so's when it breaks!!!
Old    Kyle (RidingTheNW)      Join Date: Apr 2010       10-20-2010, 12:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
The other issue is that if you are boating in an area where there is sand and shallow areas where you have to drive, that stuff can get sucked up into the motor and will plug the drain holes. If you drain them you may think they are empty, but actually the sand is blocking the water from coming out. If that happens you will get freeze damage. You have to be able to poke the hole to make sure its clear so it drains all the way.
If all you boat is in deep water its not really an issue. I used to be a boat mechanic and have winterized hundreds of boats. Sand and junk sucked up by the engine can clog a drain hole and opening a valve will not always unclog it. Its a risk you are taking by not making sure the hole is clear. I would say out of every 5 boats I winterized, 1 of them had a clogged hole with sand and junk in them. I live in the North West so I winterized boats from all different bodies of water from rivers to lakes.

Just throwing it out as a warning, thats all.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-20-2010, 1:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bawshogg View Post
Amplification of knock is NOT what you want. What happens when knock is amplified timing is retarted and performance is sacrificed. Done argueing
I understand but at least it wouldn't allow too much.
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       10-20-2010, 8:48 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy_smith View Post
Is it really that hard to take a wrench and remove your knock sensor and re-install it without cross - threading it? We are not talking about soft metals like copper or aluminum....were are talking about cast iron.

Seriously - I can winterize my boat in less time than that without a potential modification that may result in the above referenced problems.
I don't quite see either what this saves you from doing. You still have to unscrew the knock sensor from your valve, and then turn the valve. Seems that the only thing this does for you is puts the knock sensor in an easier to reach location, right?

Before this mod, you had to unscrew the bolt the knock sensor was mounted to and it would drain without a valve. Seems like the same amount of work to me. Am I missing something?
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-20-2010, 9:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyb View Post
I understand but at least it wouldn't allow too much.
Ok, One more time. Sensor generates voltage to combat spark knock or preignition as it is sometimes reffered to. The sensor is mounted to the block because it needs the"knock" sensation to generate a small voltage signal to the processor. This voltage signal tells the pcm to back timing away from the engine in attempt to save the engine from detonation. Detonation can be very destructive to an internal combustion engine. With the sensor mounted how you have it I would believe that it is too far away to effectively "sense" or "hear" the engine correctly should you have detonation occur. Not only is the sensor moved a few inches away from the block, it is now insulated by the water inside the pipe. Should the opposite effect happen and knocks, or preignition be amplified the engine only knows to pull the timing curve back, thus costing you ponies and fuel economy. Those sensors are calibrated to genaerate a certain voltage spec, and it's not very much. Like I said, I would not do it on my own, but if you have a engine without sensors, great time saver. The convienience factor plain and simple does not outwiegh the possible side effects in my opinion on a motor with sensors.
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       10-20-2010, 11:31 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by talltigeguy View Post
I don't quite see either what this saves you from doing. You still have to unscrew the knock sensor from your valve, and then turn the valve. Seems that the only thing this does for you is puts the knock sensor in an easier to reach location, right?

Before this mod, you had to unscrew the bolt the knock sensor was mounted to and it would drain without a valve. Seems like the same amount of work to me. Am I missing something?
Hmmm... take another look a the picture, thought it was pretty clear.

The only thing required to drain the block once installed is turning the valve open or close. You do not need to remove the sensor everytime. No tools required, just your fingers.

Access on the Supra is very tight under the motor area, this mod makes it simple and easy to drain out the block. You also eliminate the possibilty of cross threading the knock sensor everytime you drain the block. If you live in the mid-west, its not uncommon for people to have to de-winterize multiple times in the spring because of the weather changes. This makes this even more of a benefit for them.
Old    Doug (docdrs)      Join Date: Aug 2004       10-20-2010, 11:38 PM Reply   
If the knock sensor was not picking up the mild knocking associated with predetonation , would the ecm then keep advancing the timing (as no knocking" heard" on sensor) causing a worsening of predetonation. Since the ecm uses the sensor to determine how far it can advance the timing for optimal performance by delaying it just from the pinging point, engine performance should be quite horrific if it was not picking anything up from the sensor? . The current generated in a knock sensor is from a resonating plate responding to a 6-8 kilohertz frequency range associated with the ping

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