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Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-19-2010, 5:54 AM Reply   
Just curious what kind of stereo play time you guys are getting with your engine off.

Your RMS wattage:
Type of Music:
Batteries:
Play time w/engine off:


Hate n Pain, feel free to measure your playtime in days
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       10-19-2010, 6:23 AM Reply   
4000w rms alpine PDX
rap / house / dance
5 yellow tops
5.5 hours
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-19-2010, 8:54 AM Reply   
3800 RMS Exile, Alpine PDX, Boston Acoustic
Hip Hop/Dance/House
2 Lifeline 8D's
Never gone past 8 hours but when I plugged in the charger it was at 50% with volts at 12.1
Volume was at 75%
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-19-2010, 9:15 AM Reply   
Hate, I assume the price you paid for your 2 Lifeline's are comparable to what UNvisible paid for his 5 yellow tops?
Old     (HighVoltage)      Join Date: Aug 2010       10-19-2010, 9:42 AM Reply   
Have you guys with the big stereos and long run times every looked into using lithium ion packs? I'm pretty sure you could replace 5 optima yellow tops with one lithium pack.
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-19-2010, 9:44 AM Reply   
In the neighborhood of 4600 watts, 2 group 29's. Mostly hip hop, rap, some slower jams. 5 + hours and voltage never got below 12. Less than 2.5 bills spent on the batteries.
Old    Brian (factorykitted)      Join Date: Jul 2009       10-19-2010, 9:48 AM Reply   
4400w rms - Wet Sounds Syndicate Series
Rap/Hip Hop/Prog House/Tech
3 Kinetik 2400's + 2 Interstate's (dedicated to cranking)
7-8 hours running full steam with use of 1000watt fog machine/power invertor, misting system, LEDs and laser.

The fog machine pulls crazy draw on the Kinetiks - it drops it about a volt when powered on. My set up has a lot of variables so still dont know the actual stereo run time as all these gadgets obviously pull a draw on the Kinetiks. One day I'll have to only play the stereo and find out.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-19-2010, 9:49 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bawshogg View Post
In the neighborhood of 4600 watts, 2 group 29's. Mostly hip hop, rap, some slower jams. 5 + hours and voltage never got below 12. Less than 2.5 bills spent on the batteries.
what brand of batteries?
Old    Bu Coo (brett564)      Join Date: Jul 2006       10-19-2010, 10:06 AM Reply   
I couldn't tell you all of the specifics mentioned above, but after I got one of those solar powered trickle charger, it seems unlimited now.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-19-2010, 10:11 AM Reply   
This is a pretty straight forward question but I don't think there is a straight forward answer. I think most people could play for 6-7 hrs straight with volume at 1/4

Example I play the pontoon boat stereo all day long with just 1 "92" amp hr battery. Never had a problem. Keep in mind the stereo is small and it has only "1" 10 inc sub.

My boat has "6" 105 amp battery's that's 630 Amp hrs. I can play it in a way that after a hr or so its dipping into the 12.2 range. I can also play it in a way that it play's for 2 day's. Depending on how much bass you have and how much your pushing your sub's you can burn threw the power.

Im pushing 8,400 watts

BTW a better way of asking the question would be
How many amp hrs is your stereo battery bank
What is play time at 50% volume
How much power are you running
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-19-2010, 10:16 AM Reply   
I don't have a wakeboard boat, so no tower speakers. I use the boat almost exclusively for party cove, so not a lot of charging from the alt. Next season I will have 1300 watts RMS. 800 for mids and highs, 500 for the sub. I want to be able to rock out volume full tilt for 6+ hours.

This is the only reason I'm asking...just trying to see what other peoples play time ratio is.
Old    Brian (factorykitted)      Join Date: Jul 2009       10-19-2010, 10:17 AM Reply   
Grant - do you have link you can post of your entire set up?
Old    LEE DANEILS (hyperlite)      Join Date: May 2009       10-19-2010, 10:34 AM Reply   
Yea.....
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-19-2010, 10:59 AM Reply   
Just Motorcraft Marinecraft batteries. All of the group 29's are spec'd fairly similar. And when I say I let it play for 5 plus hours, that was at top volume.I rarely make noise for that long a period of time, but wanted to see how long I could bang for just for testing puposes. I have mentioned a few times that we did a PDXWake end of summer party at a local club where 2 boats were positioned inside the club as the dj's right and left channels. My boat was one and we had absolutely no issues rockin it from 9-9:30 untill the 2:00 close. Mind you I did have the batteries at full charge before the event off of a shore charger. I think proper system tunning has something to do with how much juice you use also.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-19-2010, 11:11 AM Reply   
Bawshogg, that's stellar play time for 4600 watts and too group 29's.
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-19-2010, 11:15 AM Reply   
I thought so too. I have several witnesses for the naysayers.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-19-2010, 11:24 AM Reply   
do you have any pictures to prove this?
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-19-2010, 11:51 AM Reply   
3 optima Blue Tops so in amp hours that would be 165.

3 Arc Audio KS Amps totaling around 1800 watts.

At about 85% of max I don't run out. I think I have played for 4 or 5 hours most weekends. Don't really ever put a voltmeter on it to see how low they get. batteries get AC charged up all week long.

4 Pro 80's (8 " speaker)
4 XS 650's (6" speaker)
1 JL Audio 12w6v2 sealed
Arc Audio KS 500.1, 300.4 and 300.2
Audiocontrol Matrix Line Driver
Alpine CDA 9886
All wirinig is Stinger PRO and HPM

Just your run of the mill basic system
Old    Cade Osborne (kruiserkat)      Join Date: May 2010       10-19-2010, 11:52 AM Reply   
How would you take any pictures of 5 hours of play time?
Old    Adam Van Dyke (lfadam)      Join Date: Nov 2008       10-19-2010, 11:57 AM Reply   
RMS wattage-1700
Batteries-2, dont remember what kind. Nothing special
Kind of music-Any
Playing time-long enough. Gone several hours (on just 1, the other is backup) and always been able to start.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       10-19-2010, 12:01 PM Reply   
Ben,
There are so many variables that are different from system to system. For example. Unregulated vs regulated amplifiers. Amplifier class (whether AB, D, GH) that will determine efficiency. Impedance load that will determine efficiency. System tuning that will determine efficiency. Equalization. Type of music and level of compression. Amplifier ratings whether rated in RMS or dynamic power (you never know). Woofer/enclosure efficiency in particular. Level of battery charge in advance and age of batteries. The experience of one boat that at least appears to be similar to another can be vastly different.
A simple formula would be to take your continuous power in wattage.
Divide that by 13 volts on average. This gives you amperage consumption.
Times amplifier efficiency. 50 percent for class AB or 80 percent for class D, etc.
Times 33 percent at max for the transient nature of music.
This will give you a rough estimate of your amp/hour demands.
A really good shore AC battery charger is essential for this type usage and getting full restoration. You'll never fully recharge a couple of batteries burning gas.
For your level of power and not knowing all the particulars of your system, I would recommend two group 24s dedicated to the stereo at bare minimum and maybe two group 27s for a bit of insurance.
An in-boat system without tower speakers is not going to project far away from the boat. Pushing it to do so can result in product failures.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-19-2010, 12:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by kruiserkat View Post
How would you take any pictures of 5 hours of play time?
It was a joke
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-19-2010, 12:13 PM Reply   
Thanks David. I knew you would eventually chime in.

I'm replacing my RF amp with an Exile Xi800.4 and the amp for the sub is a alpine MRP 500. I have 0 gauge +/- from the batteries to distro blocks and 4 gauge to amps.

I know without tower speakers it won't project far from the boat. I want the people in my boat to enjoy the music, not the people in the row behind me.
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-19-2010, 12:24 PM Reply   
Bendow...Have you ever thought about doing a golf cart battery system.

For example you can get two interstate 6v batteries and wife them in series....creating one big 12 volt battery. The wiring is very easy but the only downside is that these batteries are about 3"-4" taller than others. This is not a new concept but one that most 12v lovers are skeptical about trying.

You would be looking at about 232 amp hours and about $200 - $240 in total for the batteries.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-19-2010, 12:58 PM Reply   
Quote:
Hate, I assume the price you paid for your 2 Lifeline's are comparable to what UNvisible paid for his 5 yellow tops
What I paid was much, much cheaper They're about $800-$900 each.

I included play volume because thats any easy way af determining draw. If I ran at 50% I could conservitively get 16 hours

Baws, it is hard to believe that one could get that sort of playtime with that amount of draw with 220 AH but its good to hear becasue as you know I can get those bad boys at cost too
Old    Jason Neves (jv210)      Join Date: Feb 2006       10-19-2010, 1:03 PM Reply   
This come up all the time, and like grant mentioned it is really a hard question to get a good answer to. I always find it funny when people say they can play for 8 or so hours with huge systems when I know that either their setups aren't that big or they aren't pushing them that hard. I know if a system has W7's in the mix your going to burn through your batteries much quicker than with other subs.

3300 watts from arc SE amps
4 kinetic 2400's
1 13W7 that kills batteries easily.
99% Hip/hop
I charge my batteries with a on-board charger every time it's on the trailer, and sometimes at night at the dock for the next day. This is crucial part in keeping your battery bank happy.

When I'm stopped partying I usually play my setup at 75% to 80 % volume and can play for only around 3 hrs before the volt's drop to high 11's. This is bad and I usually turn the system down and run the engine to charge the batteries back. With a 13W7 and an SE 2300 pushing it it kills my batteries quick. If I turned my sub down I could get way more playing time but it sounds like ish with no bass so I don't do that. I like the bass thumpin!!!

Benjamin, just get batteries with the most amount or amp hrs you can afford and fit in your boat. Systems are all different so you cant really compare running times between them.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       10-19-2010, 1:32 PM Reply   
Ben,
What subwoofer and impedance?
What impedance in-boat speakers and how many?
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       10-19-2010, 1:40 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jv210 View Post
This come up all the time, and like grant mentioned it is really a hard question to get a good answer to. I always find it funny when people say they can play for 8 or so hours with huge systems when I know that either their setups aren't that big or they aren't pushing them that hard. I know if a system has W7's in the mix your going to burn through your batteries much quicker than with other subs.

3300 watts from arc SE amps
4 kinetic 2400's
1 13W7 that kills batteries easily.
99% Hip/hop
I charge my batteries with a on-board charger every time it's on the trailer, and sometimes at night at the dock for the next day. This is crucial part in keeping your battery bank happy.

When I'm stopped partying I usually play my setup at 75% to 80 % volume and can play for only around 3 hrs before the volt's drop to high 11's. This is bad and I usually turn the system down and run the engine to charge the batteries back. With a 13W7 and an SE 2300 pushing it it kills my batteries quick. If I turned my sub down I could get way more playing time but it sounds like ish with no bass so I don't do that. I like the bass thumpin!!!

Benjamin, just get batteries with the most amount or amp hrs you can afford and fit in your boat. Systems are all different so you cant really compare running times between them.


I would definitely examine your battery charging system. 4 2400's should have no problem with your relatively low RMS rating. Have you checked current draw? Have you checked to make sure your charger is getting each sell maximum charge?
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       10-19-2010, 1:41 PM Reply   
Also, maybe someone can explain to me how a subwoofer will have a dramatic difference in battery life in a system.
Old    Jason Neves (jv210)      Join Date: Feb 2006       10-19-2010, 1:51 PM Reply   
UNvisible, I have no problems with my charging system. The kinetics are about 3 years old so ya they may not be as good as they were on day one, but they are constantly charged. I might not have a high RMS system, but they are signature series arc's being pushed to max. I've seen and heard my fair share of big systems and know a lot of playing hours people are throwing out are BS.

I'll let someone with knodledge on the sub question answer, but W7's pull a lot.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-19-2010, 2:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by david_e_m View Post
Ben,
What subwoofer and impedance?
What impedance in-boat speakers and how many?
David, 1 Alpine Type R 12. I think it's 2 ohm? 8 Exile SX65C's that will be running at 2 ohm.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-19-2010, 2:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy_smith View Post
Bendow...Have you ever thought about doing a golf cart battery system.

For example you can get two interstate 6v batteries and wife them in series....creating one big 12 volt battery. The wiring is very easy but the only downside is that these batteries are about 3"-4" taller than others. This is not a new concept but one that most 12v lovers are skeptical about trying.

You would be looking at about 232 amp hours and about $200 - $240 in total for the batteries.
Murphy, I haven't considered this. Do you think I should? Haven't heard of too many people running 6v batteries.
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-19-2010, 2:15 PM Reply   
If you want to learn more about it just search the term "golf" in the boat accesorries form - there will be a couple of days worth of info to chew on.

I think at that point, you would know if you wanted to go this direction.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       10-19-2010, 2:16 PM Reply   
I've got a little noodleledge about the subwoofer efficiency thing.
Say you've got two different subwoofers that are 3 dB apart in sensitivity which does not even take into consideration the difference in mass and difficulty in running one sub over another. Say that one sub has a much lower resonance than another thus an earlier impedance rise at the bottom end where there is far less power being drawn for Rap, Hip Hop, etc. Say that one sub is using a ported enclosure versus sealed which constitutes a 3 dB difference in efficiency. We have a conservative difference of 6 dB which is equalivalent to a 1 to 4 power ratio. With a little use of the bass EQ and a mis-tuned crossover plus a phasing issue or two you could easily knock out 10 dB of dynamic range and the system is being pushed inordinately hard to just sound bad. No one says that this description fits their system but yet I hear systems like this all the time. And when you've been doing it as long as me you can usually diagnose the problems by ear in just moments. So yes, a subwoofer can impact the system efficiency and current draw more so than the fullrange. It may not be as apparent since you only hear the sub over a comparatively narrow bandwidth but the impact may still be greater.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       10-19-2010, 2:31 PM Reply   
Ben,
Your power estimate is a little high but you're in very good shape. Keep this in mind. JL Audio has two 500 watt monoblock amplifiers, one that sells for $250 and another that sells for $600. Both are excellent amplifiers at there respective price points. But there is no comparison in the performance.
There are countless loopholes in power specifications which allow this. 1khZ vs 20 to 20kHZ, dynamic power versus continuous power, 14.4 volt supply power which you'll never reproduce, etc. You don't have to invest in an expensive battery as lead acid can serve you well. Just shoot for 110 amp/hours bare minimum up to 200 amp/hours at the top end and you'll be fine.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    John Bauer (jonyb)      Join Date: Nov 2008       10-19-2010, 2:58 PM Reply   
Roughly 3800W RMS, WS Syn6, 4, and 2 Syn1's. 1's are loaded down to 1 ohm
2 Stinger SP1500D batteries for the stereo, 1 SPP925 for the boat and head unit
5-6 hours at 3/4 volume with no runtime in between

Syn1: 12" XXX
Syn1: 12" XXX
Syn4: 3 pair of XS-650's
Syn6: Channels 1-4 in 2-channel mode powering a pair of Pro80s, Channel's 5-6 mono powering a Pro485
(3) Stinger SBC6A on-board charger/maintainer's that are religiously plugged in at the end of each day or while on the dock.
Old     (HighVoltage)      Join Date: Aug 2010       10-19-2010, 4:10 PM Reply   
Does anyone have an approximate current draw for the whole system? Thats what really matters for calculating run time since everyone "Peak, RMS, and Volume %" are different.

Lead Acid and AGM type batteries tank fast at any sort of high current draw, which is why you see people running banks of them in parallel. The higher current draw, the less amp hours you will be able to pull out of them.
Old    8tens (Ben Kerran) (rukie)      Join Date: Jan 2006       10-19-2010, 4:19 PM Reply   
Your RMS wattage: around 5K
Type of Music: Hip Hop/Rap
Batteries:10 Optima Blue Tops
Play time w/engine off: I would say I am somewhere bewtween 2-3 hours with my subs at full tilt. before I start showing high 11's on the voltmeter.

I am really having a hard time believing some of these play times however my batts are old and my sub amps are far from efficient, so maybe they are accurate.
I have 8 ten inch subs and my sub amps are extremely inneficient. I can run the system for days (literally) if I just run the interior and tower amps at 60% or so.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       10-19-2010, 4:25 PM Reply   
Rukie,
You sure aren't recharging those ten Optimas with your alternator or a trickle charger so what are you using?
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-19-2010, 5:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
I am really having a hard time believing some of these play times
Ben It's called B.S and your not the only one that smell's it. LOL

Play times could be totally real I guess. it's more about what you concider "humpin"
Example you with you 8 ten's going at 70% volume is gonna be drawing alot more power and less play time then the guy with 2 10's idea of "Humpin" is

I have heard your system and know how you play and have clue what kind of battery bank one would need to run your system at 70%.for 7 hrs. It would be a HUGE HUGE battey bank.

So I feel ya in your disbelief of play time. Your & My idea of play time and other peoples idea of play time can be WAY diffrent.

I push 6400 watts of power to 4 W7's If I am to turn it down just think of the power Im not using or saving Hell yea I can play for 7 or 8 hrs.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-19-2010, 6:05 PM Reply   
My run times legit but I do only have two tens running at what I consider their "full" capacity. I do take times to turn them down throughout the day to give them a rest and allow them to cool so as not to damage them. A lesson I learned the hard way.

G, I am running 1 class D to my 2 subs at 1.5 ohms. You are running your 4- 12w7's off of 4 SE 2300's A/B at 61% effeciency (•Max Peak Current 20hm Mono: 222A @ 1800 Watts) thats a huge difference. My interiors are run off of an Alpine PDX (class D digital) super efficient amp. My towers are run of of a BA GT-28 A/B. Outside of my BA, I have very effecient amps and a lot less of them than you.

There is no way I can beat my batteries down with my current set up inside 4 hours and I'm at 524 AH.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-19-2010, 6:30 PM Reply   
Hate hey I wasn't calling you out. Pretty funny how I made a comet about "The Guy with 2 tens" and you turned out to be "The Guy with 2 tens" I had no idea what you are running so I guess it was a good guess on my part. LOL

Hey at least you have some sub's I bet some people who think there system is rocking don't even have a sub, LOL.

I wanted to do a Battery Dyno test. Where we could test charge and Discharge cycles of any given battery. It would be great to know what battery's worked besFOR OUR USEor our use. Everyone swears this battery or that battery is better than this one but it would be awesome to have some sort of even playing field to test all batterys, Sort of like the CES amp numbers
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-19-2010, 7:03 PM Reply   
No worries, I didn't feel as though you were directing that at me specifically I just fit the bill perfectly I sure as hell know that my 2- W10GTI's aren't going to hang with your 4-12W7's or Bens 8-9500's...lol

You've mentioned a dyno test a few times over the years, it would be awesome. It seems like XS Power has mentioned that they have something along those lines available. They need to chime in here.
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       10-19-2010, 7:06 PM Reply   
Stock Sony deck and speakers. Original battery. 14 minutes. Of course if I was not in the boat it would run a lot longer but that's about all I can bear when I'm in there.
Old     (HighVoltage)      Join Date: Aug 2010       10-19-2010, 7:18 PM Reply   
If someone with one of these huge stereos could put an amp clamp on their system and see what the average current draw is while playing at various volumes, I would be willing to test several battery types on a battery "Dyno." My current test setup inventory includes optima blue tops, US Battery 2200's, Deka AGMs, Flooded Trojans, Flux Power LiFePO4, and Valence U27-12.
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-19-2010, 8:30 PM Reply   
I have no reason to BS on my playtime. Makes no sense at all to do so. To be more specific here is my exact specs on the amps/speaker setup. I had no expectations on what kind of play time I would get out of my system. Thought I would just give it a rip and see what happened. We sometimes spend a long time chillin on the beach behind Ross Island. So I just let it play, we had several boats linked up and it never shut down completely. My tower amp finally shut down as the voltage got down near 12.1 volts after near 5 hours, but it was also 95+ degrees that day. Next test came at the PDXWake end of summer motorboater bash. I was the left channel for the dj, rocked from 9-9:30 - 2:00am with no issues what so ever. Left the boat overnight , picked it up at 10:30 ish the next morning. Went straight to the river and dropped her in for a few quick sets. No issues starting what so ever. I would say that is good enough for me.
  • 1 Exile Xi 2500.1 at 1 ohm driving 1 Exile BIG 12 in a ported enclosure
  • 1 Exile Harpoon run at 1.3 ohm driving 6 towers
  • 1 Exile Xi 800.4 run at 4ohm to 4 cabins
I am not sure on total system draw at this point and I would gladly throw an amp clamp on her, but she folded away for the winter now. The rcommendations on the batteries came from a fellow member. I was in need and was suggested to possibly try the group 29's. Like I said I had no expectations really, just kinda what I ended up with.

Last edited by bawshogg; 10-19-2010 at 8:34 PM. Reason: spelling
Old    Brian (brianinpdx)      Join Date: Aug 2009       10-20-2010, 12:59 AM Reply   
No right answer on any of this Ben. Next time your not busy, deployed or otherwise doing those military things, hit me up and I'll walk you through some battery ideas for you're setup. I know last we spoke on the phone, you mentioned party cove play time. Hopefully your upgrades are coming along well.

One proactive solution I'd suggest to everyone here is take a fesh look at fully engaging your subsonic filters. I'd guess at least half the boats on the water have misalignment in the bass region tuning. It seems to be a repetitive problem. In simple terms a fully implimented subsonic filter can save a lot of wasted amplifier energy. Not only does this mean more playing time but also better overall sound. This is wasted power folks. A simple sweep and 5-10 mins of fine tuning is all that's required. **** This of course assumes your bass setup has a port tuned enclosure. These days most bass amplifiers have some type of subsonic filtering ability.

- Brian
Exile audio
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-20-2010, 1:31 AM Reply   
1,000 watts on the tower
1,200 watts to the sub
800 watts to the boat

2 Kinetik 2400's dedicated to the stereo and one little red top starting battery.

I can play it hard for about an hour then it starts dipping below 12V so I need to back things off a tad, after than I can play it loud for another 2-3 hours if I modulate the bass and pull back the tower a bit, after that I usually let somebody else step up and carry the party leaving my boat as fill.

One interesting note, I can swap the Boston 555 voice coil between 2 or 4 ohms and notice a significant difference in running time with very little loss of bass. It's also nicer not to have that burning voice coil smell lingering around the boat that I get with the 2 ohm coils in the sub via the ported box. This also drops the sub rated power down to 800 watts. Takes only about 10 minutes to do so.

Before I installed the big Boston sub I could easily run it 4 hours but it also only had about half the bass.
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-20-2010, 1:55 AM Reply   
FYI

Battery Specific Depth of
Voltage** Gravity** Discharge

12.66 - 12.75 1.265 - 1.280 0 percent **NOTE:
12.45 - 12.51 1.225 - 1.240 25 percent Valid only if battery
12.25 - 12.27 1.190 - 1.200 50 percent has been idle for
12.03 - 12.05 1.145 - 1.160 75 percent several hours.
11.79 - 11.90 1.100 - 1.120 100 percent
Old    882001 (882001)      Join Date: Nov 2003       10-20-2010, 5:55 AM Reply   
dont do regulated power supply mid/high amps and go class "D" for the subs and you will have alot longer runtime, and wont lose any sq, in my experience.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-20-2010, 8:08 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianinpdx View Post
No right answer on any of this Ben. Next time your not busy, deployed or otherwise doing those military things, hit me up and I'll walk you through some battery ideas for you're setup. I know last we spoke on the phone, you mentioned party cove play time. Hopefully your upgrades are coming along well.

- Brian
Exile audio
Thanks Brian, I appreciate it. Been busy, but planning on doing some fun upgrades at the beginning of the new year.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-20-2010, 8:11 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by grant_west View Post
I wanted to do a Battery Dyno test. Where we could test charge and Discharge cycles of any given battery. It would be great to know what battery's worked besFOR OUR USEor our use. Everyone swears this battery or that battery is better than this one but it would be awesome to have some sort of even playing field to test all batterys, Sort of like the CES amp numbers
This^^^

Everyone says every system is different, which is true, but it would be cool if someone would test a bunch of different batteries on one system to measure play time.

Grant, you already got the underwater LED test under your belt...when do you plan to take on the battery test?
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-20-2010, 8:29 AM Reply   
Mike and I were talking last year about making a Battery Dyno. We had some pretty cool ideas on how it would or should work. You load a battery on it, We could have some of draw the would very up and down as to simulate how a stereo pulls on a system this draw would be the same draw for each battery (kind of like playing the same song over and over). The test would start with a full battery. Topped off by a smart charger. When the battery hits the test voltage (lets say 12.8 volts) the draw would start. The test would stop when the bat voltage hit. (lets say 12.1) the lap top would record the time it took to go from 12.8 to 12.1 and record the time it took to get charged back up. It would also record the number of time's the cycle was complete ( cycles). You could see how long a specific battery held voltage and how long it took to re charge and how many cycles before the battery started showing wear and tear

This would be a very complex computer program to make so that it would run all automatic. Im intrested in doing it. If any one else wants to join in that has experiance in the field let me know we can start sharing notes and get somthing built.
Old    Bhyatt (bhyatt_ohp)      Join Date: Oct 2007       10-20-2010, 8:37 AM Reply   
Just thinking out loud, if some put more time and effort into wakeboarding than boat stereo setups - most would probably be much better riders. Around Nashville we have have a specific description for these lake goers: "StereoBoarders". Sadly, this is where this industry is going.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-20-2010, 8:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhyatt_ohp View Post
Just thinking out loud, if some put more time and effort into wakeboarding than boat stereo setups - most would probably be much better riders. Around Nashville we have have a specific description for these lake goers: "StereoBoarders". Sadly, this is where this industry is going.
I created this post, my boat isn't a wakeboard boat. Unfortunately due to an MX injury I've only wakeboarded once in the past year, 2 weeks ago, bad idea (profile pic). I have one slipped disc and one torn. So until I bite the bullet and get back surgery partying is all I got. I do agree to some extent. I saw some guys at Lake Travis with a bad ass Malibu VLX with a lot of money in the stereo, I asked them how the wake was, they said they only wakesurf behind it.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-20-2010, 8:57 AM Reply   
Brandon: Just thinking out loud myself. If all these so called "StereoBoarders" would suddenly start wakeboarding more you would THEN be complaining about to many people ripping up your sweet butter dude! Look at it this way the "StereoBoarders" are blowing up subs and melting batterys in party cove and not making wake while you are out doing what you like. All is good.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       10-20-2010, 9:03 AM Reply   
While a little off point its hard to separate playtime from efficiency. Its possible to have two systems with the same output and identical batteries with the at-rest playtime on one system being twice as long.
Specs often portray the 2-ohm power as twice that of the 4-ohm power (and so on with the 1 to 2-ohm comparison) and that is a falacy. When you halve the impedance the amplifier's operating efficiency drops and there is more heat generation as a percentage of output. Not to mention the voltage sag of the power supply, etc. In reality many amplifiers will deliver at least 70 percent of the 2-ohm power into a 4-ohm load and do so more efficiently.
Class D is typically a 60 percent increase in efficiency over Class AB so it makes sense to always consider the slightly extra cost of fullrange Class D.
Some of the woofer attributes that translate to automotive such as extreme excursion cababilities are not as productive in an open air boat. Extra excursion provides serious leverage in the rigid air mass of an enclosed vehicle cabin but doesn't couple to air in the same way in a boat. So in a boat more surface area is generally more effective. You can achieve this via a larger woofer or by how you load the woofer with an enclosure... bass-reflex for example. Available box displacment should dictate the size of woofer and woofer type plus the type of enclosure loading. But its not always going to be about just fitting in the biggest woofer. And the woofer with the highest power handling is not always the best choice in every budget. In some cases the woofer with the greatest power handling and the greatest excursion is like moving the mass of a telephone book back and forth 200 times a second. That is fighting a bunch of inertia. Its the woofer box combination as it fits your boat matched to your power that is most important. Unless your objective is something pretty extreme then a lower mass woofer can often create the same or greater output within limits at a much lower cost in power consumption. Just a few examples and really just the tip of the iceberg.
Through system design and product selection its a breeze to gain an extra 3 dB of efficiency (very conservatively) and you will find that in a boat the extra efficiency usually equates to improved sonic qualities as well (not just more playtime). I'm a huge advocate of higher system efficiency.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Phatboypimp (phatboypimp)      Join Date: Apr 2005       10-20-2010, 9:38 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhyatt_ohp View Post
Just thinking out loud, if some put more time and effort into wakeboarding than boat stereo setups - most would probably be much better riders. Around Nashville we have have a specific description for these lake goers: "StereoBoarders". Sadly, this is where this industry is going.
Do you recognize that wakeboarding and "strereoboarding" are not mutually exclusive? I understand that you feel that your opinion is the only one that matters, but I am 100% confident that many these "stereoboarders" that you speak of can tear it up on their boards as well.

Even so, lets say that they can't board, who cares? How does this possibly affect you enough that you have to attempt to insult people who are passionate about their stereos (and you are obviously reading this while you could be out boarding). Next thing you know it isn't right for someone to fish or cruise or enjoy their boat unless they are wakeboarding.

Come on......"this is where the industry is going".....you are kidding right?
Old     (HighVoltage)      Join Date: Aug 2010       10-20-2010, 9:48 AM Reply   
As far as batteries go.

The most bang for your buck would be the US Battery 2200 flooded lead acids, they are commonly used in electric vehicle conversions. A 6V 232Ah battery runs around $150, so for every 12v bank that's around $300 for a "232Ah" battery. The downside to these batteries is that it falls on its face once you get into the higher current draws. As long as you are pulling less than 50A from these batteries they will work great. If you are pulling higher currents you need to start adding more banks in parallel to keep the current draw down on each pack.

The downside to this battery chemistry (and AGMs like Optima/Deka) is they have a ton of voltage sag, which makes your amplifiers work harder, be less efficient and cut-out when a hard baseline hits.

If your concerned about space, weight, complexity, battery life, charging 10 batteries correctly, and still want a ton of clean power then you should look into some lithium based packs. They hold a higher voltage (usually between 12-13.5 during load/engine off) and are much less affected by voltage sag. For reference, one "160Ah" lithium pack will last about 5x longer than one optima blue top at a 50A load. At a 100A load your looking at about 15 minutes of run-time on a optima blue and 2 hours on a lithium pack. Lifetime depends on how its used/maintained but generally its about 10x lead acid or 5x AGM packs.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       10-20-2010, 10:04 AM Reply   
High Voltage,
So what are the comparative costs of the lithium packs, the size and any other apllication or installation complexities?
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-20-2010, 10:12 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighVoltage View Post
As far as batteries go.

The most bang for your buck would be the US Battery 2200 flooded lead acids, they are commonly used in electric vehicle conversions. A 6V 232Ah battery runs around $150, so for every 12v bank that's around $300 for a "232Ah" battery. The downside to these batteries is that it falls on its face once you get into the higher current draws. As long as you are pulling less than 50A from these batteries they will work great. If you are pulling higher currents you need to start adding more banks in parallel to keep the current draw down on each pack.

The downside to this battery chemistry (and AGMs like Optima/Deka) is they have a ton of voltage sag, which makes your amplifiers work harder, be less efficient and cut-out when a hard baseline hits.

If your concerned about space, weight, complexity, battery life, charging 10 batteries correctly, and still want a ton of clean power then you should look into some lithium based packs. They hold a higher voltage (usually between 12-13.5 during load/engine off) and are much less affected by voltage sag. For reference, one "160Ah" lithium pack will last about 5x longer than one optima blue top at a 50A load. At a 100A load your looking at about 15 minutes of run-time on a optima blue and 2 hours on a lithium pack. Lifetime depends on how its used/maintained but generally its about 10x lead acid or 5x AGM packs.

I've got the interstate 242 ah 6v batteries on my boat, same as the us battery 2300. I don't know my actual max playtime because there are to many variables., and I don't remember ever being in the same situation twice when trying to figure out how long I can go. I'd guess about 3 hours and I'm running 4100 watts RMS. I do know it's not enough and will be adding more battieres this winter. When I'm chilling I turn the in boat speakers off so that might help.

Last edited by 05mobiuslsv; 10-20-2010 at 10:14 AM.
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       10-20-2010, 10:40 AM Reply   
stereo boarding LOL

I guess some people dont have the cognitive ability for more than one hobby.
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-20-2010, 10:42 AM Reply   
Nubu - have you ever noticed any issues with the golf cart batteries not being able to deliver the high demands of immediate power to the amps.

Highvoltage referenced one of my concern's when he said that anything over a 50 amp draw and these 6v's will fall flat on their face???

Last edited by murphy_smith; 10-20-2010 at 10:45 AM.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-20-2010, 10:50 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy_smith View Post
Nubu - have you ever noticed any issues with the golf cart batteries not being able to deliver the high demands of immediate power to the amps.

Highvoltage referenced one of my concern's when he said that anything over a 50 amp draw and these 6v's will fall flat on their face???
I've never noticed that, been tied up to other boats with different batteries and there was no apparent issue anyone could notice. I don't notice any crazy voltage dips or anything like that. I know I'm pulling alot more than 50A as well. This is also my main house bank so I start the boat off of them without issue as well. I've also had the same AGM battery that Hate is running, had 5 optima blue tops before that, and these seem to do the job just as well. I do take very good care of them though. I have a Pro-Fill automatic battery watering system installed on them as well as an onboard charger that gets hooked up as soon as I get back to the house.

I took a 4 day trip where I couldn't charge them and they were fine the whole time and never gave me problems.

Last edited by 05mobiuslsv; 10-20-2010 at 10:52 AM.
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       10-20-2010, 11:35 AM Reply   
Thanks for the info - I have got great years out of my optimas and dual pro charger on them.

I think I will switch to 6v's when the time comes and def. hook up a pro watering system. You just can't beat the $ per amp hour on this setup. My system is just shy of 2000 watts and that you be everything playing at full tilt. I am sure that one pair would be fine for me.

What charger are you using on these?
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-20-2010, 11:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy_smith View Post
Thanks for the info - I have got great years out of my optimas and dual pro charger on them.

I think I will switch to 6v's when the time comes and def. hook up a pro watering system. You just can't beat the $ per amp hour on this setup. My system is just shy of 2000 watts and that you be everything playing at full tilt. I am sure that one pair would be fine for me.

What charger are you using on these?
I use the Pro mariner Pro Sport 20 that isn't supposed to work on them. It works great. You really can't beat the $ vs ah on mine, I got them for $60 each. I just wish I would have bought 4.
Old    Shredtastic (seth)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-20-2010, 12:20 PM Reply   
A little off topic. Is it ok to leave everything hooked up when you are charging batteries or do you guys disconnect?
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-20-2010, 12:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by seth View Post
A little off topic. Is it ok to leave everything hooked up when you are charging batteries or do you guys disconnect?
The only thing I do is turn OFF my battery selector switch.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       10-20-2010, 12:23 PM Reply   
I get at least 5 hours of play time.

My system consists of an ipod and headphones though.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-20-2010, 12:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill View Post
I get at least 5 hours of play time.

My system consists of an ipod and headphones though.
I think you could squeeze out a couple more hours if you turned the bass down .
Old     (HighVoltage)      Join Date: Aug 2010       10-22-2010, 7:30 PM Reply   
What type of data would people like to see in a battery comparison test?

I was thinking just a description, manufacturer, manufacturer stated max amp hours (Ah), pricing, expected cycle life, then the Ah and watt hours (Wh) (which is a better representation of power capacity) at different constant current draws.

The stereo loads are always going up and down with the music, but nobody listens to the same music so I think a constant current draw should give you a better idea of what battery will give you the most bang for your buck, loudest music, hardest hitting, longest playtime, and expected lifetime before replacement.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       10-22-2010, 8:08 PM Reply   
All that sounds good. What would be really nice to see is if the theory around golf cart batteries not being able to hold up to the current draw of stereo use or not. Also what type of battery is the best in a real world application for a stereo system, wet cell, AGM, etc..
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       10-23-2010, 4:23 AM Reply   
maybe it's just me, but I don't think a battery test would have to be all that complex. Just download a dj mix from beezo.net, put it on repeat and play each battery, with the same song, same volume, settings etc, and measure the play times.

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