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Old    John G (malibujohn)      Join Date: Aug 2010       08-31-2010, 11:03 AM Reply   
Thought about trying a air roll while edging out heelside at 21mph. Do I ollie then roll, not sure on the sequence. I know I won't land it, I wanna learn the feeling before working on wake inverts. Thanks for any advice
Old    pacifichigh (pacifichigh)      Join Date: Jun 2008       08-31-2010, 11:07 AM Reply   
Edge and scoop, at least that is how I do them on the cable. No Ollie
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-31-2010, 11:15 AM Reply   
Probably should be trying a roll 2 revert as it requires less air time. And you won't be getting much air. Defintitely an ollie is *not* what you should be doing, just like pacifichigh said. I do them on the cable but not on the boat.
Old    Small Light (stephan)      Join Date: Nov 2002       08-31-2010, 12:19 PM Reply   
You are setting yourself up for some slams and this in no way will help you learn a wake to wake roll. If you feel you must crash, help yourself out and try an "inside out" roll. Which is where you cut from between the wakes and throw the roll off the inside lip as you head outside the wake.
Old    John G (malibujohn)      Join Date: Aug 2010       08-31-2010, 12:23 PM Reply   
That's what I needed to know. Maybe I'll scrap that idea.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-31-2010, 12:46 PM Reply   
don't just listen to one person john.i went to the wakeboard camp in clermont fla. that is the first step in the process. only you slow the boat to 15-16 mph cut out heelside edge then stand tall and lean hard against the line,you will feel the boat pull you over your toes.thats called loading the line. then you cut out and pick a spot to be your pretend wake cut out or scoop as the cable guys say.pull hard and look over your lead shoulder. this will start your rotation . once you can rotate around till your board hits the water first then your ready for one wake. the slower speed makes falls easy to take.don't try at 21mph.
Old    John G (malibujohn)      Join Date: Aug 2010       08-31-2010, 12:53 PM Reply   
Thanks, that sounds fun to try.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-31-2010, 1:01 PM Reply   
Stephan I disagree.... "In no way will it help you learn w2w roll" ? It most certainly will help in the load and release feel of learning any load and release trick. Back Roll, Raley, ect.....
Old    WakeboardSTL (jmuthafnp)      Join Date: Feb 2006       08-31-2010, 1:27 PM Reply   
Back roll/raley on boat is a load and release trick??? Since when? That's a new one on me.
Old    mojo            08-31-2010, 1:50 PM Reply   
dont do air tricks if you can't do it w2w. simple.
Old    Jonathan Bay (john211)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-31-2010, 2:37 PM Reply   
Through the same influence as on Robert (ie., Kyle Schmidt at Wakeboard Camp), I learned an air roll-to-revert first.

It's fun. It's gimmicky. And ... it gives a false sense of making progress towards a W2W backroll.

But in truth, I bet it is no help in true progress for the majority of people. It was none for me. The "initiation," and the "what you do once initiated," are not similar in the least for these two tricks. I'd say a TS wake jump is more similar to a HS wake jump than an air roll-to-revert is to a w2w HS back roll.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-31-2010, 3:37 PM Reply   
the air roll is used to teach you how to load the line ie body and arm position.thats all. it is one step of the many to reduce the number of falls and severity of the falls.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       08-31-2010, 3:41 PM Reply   
WakeboardSTL - Since the beginning. Backrolls, raleys, etc. are load and release tricks. Just like tantrums, frontrolls, etc. are trip/flip tricks.
Old    Small Light (stephan)      Join Date: Nov 2002       08-31-2010, 4:21 PM Reply   
I guess if you guys like to crash a lot, learning an air roll is perfect.

I think a better drill to practice loading is to work on clearing the wake from 5 feet outside the wake. Taking this short cut forces you to edge progressively all the way through the top of the wake and get max load, release, and pop.

Do what you wish, I got nothing but respect for K. Schmidt, he taught me some of my first inverts too. I just wouldn't recommend it, I feel there are better ways.
Old    Tommy I (trio)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-31-2010, 4:28 PM Reply   
Check out www.Learnwake.com if you want the best way to learn W2W backrolls without injury. This will also help you learn air rolls.

I wish I would have watched this tutorial before I learned them. I went with the charging and hucking at 21mph technique.
Old    AtTheLake (bmartin)      Join Date: Jan 2007       08-31-2010, 4:29 PM Reply   
I might suggest a mouth guard if you feel you must try these. A knee to chin resulting in a concussion, stitches, and or cracked teeth are definite possibilities.
Old    WakeboardSTL (jmuthafnp)      Join Date: Feb 2006       08-31-2010, 5:41 PM Reply   
That's interesting Eubanks. I don't load the line to do a back roll. Maybe we are confusing terminology here.
Old    Kat Laird (wakekat15)      Join Date: Jul 2005       08-31-2010, 6:20 PM Reply   
I've never heard of a backroll NOT being a load and release trick....very interesting.
Old    J.B. O'Neill (gnarslayer)      Join Date: Sep 2008       09-01-2010, 12:44 AM Reply   
umm dont be a puss... nut up and do it wake to wake...
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       09-01-2010, 6:38 AM Reply   
j.b. he is asking for help not name calling. we all have to learn. not everyone can be a manly man like you.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       09-01-2010, 8:33 AM Reply   
Even though I do air rolls on the cable I never envisioned that doing them behind the boat being easier than a W2W backroll. Seems like W2W would be the easiest. Just make sure you have a nice big wake.

When I first learned the backroll it was behind an unweighted 1992 Ski Nautique. I tried at least 200 of them never sticking a one. And not one fall was painful. I was about to give up and go get a lesson when some guys with a weighted 80's 2001 Nautique offered me a pull. Landed 3 in a row. The wake size was the key to sticking it.
Old    Andy Nintzel (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-01-2010, 9:07 AM Reply   
well since no body actually explained I will...

If you got your roll to reverts consistent, the air r2r isn't too difficult. The basic thing you have to remember is what gives you enough air to land the trick is the amount of line tension you have built up in the rope. So if you try to ollie on this one out, you'll end up getting scorpioned..

Firstly, try surfing the wake a little and get a feel of how the line tension builts up each time you cut away from the wake. When you're ready to hit it, cut away from the wake digging your heels to build up more tension and when you feel that the line tension is at its strongest just cut up and away like you would on a normal backroll, but really focus on keeping you handle low so that its easier to spin around it. The landings pretty much the same as a backroll just with a little more slack in the line after landing it. I like to do this prat very fast, for me it helps to do a fast edge change. I stand outside the wake about mid way between the wake and as far out as you can edge. I do a quick cut towards to boat then Immediately cut back on my heels hard, this gives you a good scooping motion to get the roll going.

The hard part is getting the timing right for the pop. Just when you feel the line tension tight enough, don't rush the pop, but kind of scoop up and away. At the point when you scoop up, you should be standing pretty tall, or else you'll finish the roll on your butt .. It might help to start first by trying a one wake r2r from the inside to out. Here's a good video of the edging technique i am referring to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhT9bHcUjdc

they are fairly easy you just have to man up and realize you will crash on the first few, mainy because it happens so quickly. its a crowd pleaser!
Old    Jonathan Bay (john211)      Join Date: Aug 2008       09-01-2010, 10:53 AM Reply   
"mainy because it happens so quickly." Thanks Andy, and true that.

Although, I don't think anyone needs a w2w roll to revert before attempting air r2r's. It happens so fast, I liken the trick to an air tumble turn -- about 3 ft off the water -- more than any w2w trick.

Also, I don't think I could ... in my life ... land any other way than revert. It just happens naturally.

Unlike John Anderson (I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm saying we just had different experiences), I did get slammed (and hurt) many times during my earliest w2w backroll attempts. Somewhat like him, I bet it took 50 times (maybe more, I certainly lost count). Most days, in the beginning, I'd give it just one shot, maybe two. I consider myself lucky if I escaped without injury.

In contrast, with air r2r, I missed my landings a lot but I never even had so much as an alarming landing ... and ... barring unfortunate body position ... I don't see how you could. You're too low, the trick (or the denial thereof) is over in a hurry, when crashing either I slipped out (and landed on my back or side) or else short landed in a balled up defensive position.
Old    mojo            09-01-2010, 2:24 PM Reply   
air rolls are lame anyways so save the time and work on something else.
Old    Andy Nintzel (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-01-2010, 3:58 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo View Post
air rolls are lame anyways so save the time and work on something else.
they are only lame if you cannot do them. Total crowd please gets the chicks as excited as a huge raley!!!
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       09-01-2010, 7:17 PM Reply   
alot of pro's must be lame according to MOJO.i agree with andy they are a real crowd pleaser. definately takes more talent to do one because you have less air and less time.
Old    mojo            09-02-2010, 3:48 AM Reply   
by all means do what makes you happy, but an air roll is not too great of a trick. you'll get more out of an ollie backside 180 in the long run than an air roll. if you're on cable then by all means have at it. the basics of an air invert are starting at the wake, edging out hard to load the line, and scooping the board out very similar to how it's done on a cable. honestly though, what would you rather see? a bel air or a w2w tantrum; an air back mobe or a w2w back mobe. if you want to learn flats stuff go for ollie 360's or back 180's. these are tricks that will transfer to the wake. and please point out pro's you see doing it on a regular basis. for that matter, name some boat contests or free ride vids they've been done in lately. class in session doesn't count. save the flats inverts for an air chair if you ever become cripple.
Old    LEE DANEILS (hyperlite)      Join Date: May 2009       09-02-2010, 5:04 AM Reply   
Haha love it
Old    Kat Laird (wakekat15)      Join Date: Jul 2005       09-02-2010, 5:28 AM Reply   
Dean Lavelle threw several in his pass at World's and the crowd was LOVING it!! I think he did an air tantrum too! It's impressive to me that anyone can throw an invert without the assistance of the wake!
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       09-02-2010, 8:09 AM Reply   
It's pretty lame to think that all of us throwing some tricks should only be doing what the pros do.

Seriously mojo, that was an incredibly lame thing to say. Do you feel you should just go in to every thread where someone is trying to learn a basic trick and call it lame. I actually think an air roll behind the boat is pretty cool. I don't see that many people doing it regardless of their ability.
Old    Jonathan Bay (john211)      Join Date: Aug 2008       09-02-2010, 9:05 AM Reply   
It’s not quite the same thing (and I don’t know what you call it) but ... at boarding school ... Murray threw a re-entry Tantrum off a virtual double-up.

What happened was, Murray had just gotten in the water to start a set. Another boat (not connected with the school and not out of bad driving) had turned in front of us and sent rollers straight at us. I think now that Travis Moye knew Murray could handle the rollers as soon as got up ... and would in fact appreciate the shot at them.

But this was not known to five others of us in the boat. Murray got up, stood outside the wake on his TS (boat’s port side), and waited at the bottom. Then he was bobbing like a cork over the first few rollers, half his body disappearing. Then ... without effort .. he was shot straight up, he did his tantrum, and landed again outside the wake on same side as he started.

It was huge ... in both the sense it was high ... and ... it was a huge crowd-pleaser.

I don’t expect it’s a trick for a pro run, but it was an immensely fun trick to watch. But anyway, Murray just oozes with crowd-pleasing tricks and other stunts.
Old    Andy Nintzel (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-02-2010, 9:41 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo View Post
by all means do what makes you happy, but an air roll is not too great of a trick. you'll get more out of an ollie backside 180 in the long run than an air roll. if you're on cable then by all means have at it. the basics of an air invert are starting at the wake, edging out hard to load the line, and scooping the board out very similar to how it's done on a cable. honestly though, what would you rather see? a bel air or a w2w tantrum; an air back mobe or a w2w back mobe. if you want to learn flats stuff go for ollie 360's or back 180's. these are tricks that will transfer to the wake. and please point out pro's you see doing it on a regular basis. for that matter, name some boat contests or free ride vids they've been done in lately. class in session doesn't count. save the flats inverts for an air chair if you ever become cripple.
Dude I hate to do this but your arguement has no point to it. It's cool all we get it, you dont like them, you cant do them what ever the case mat be. Air tricks are from the root of wakeboarding, the begining stages of the sport. There really is no reason to dog on them so much. As for your statement about doing ollie bs 180 and fs 360 in the flats, that's a greay way to learn the motion of a trick, however its a completely different trick once take to the wake, I would it's as differnt as an air roll is to an w2w backroll. Sure the motion is the same for both air/ollie vs off the wake but that is about all they have in common. Once you factor in increased speed, line tension, air time, doing ollie tricks are totally different than w2w, I dont care what trick it is, an ollie or an air tirck are totally differnt off the wake. So doing ollie bs 180's and 360's is pretty much on par with air tricks. Sorry but I guess my point is that your arguement doesnt have much merit to it. I bet the crod and people in the boat would get a bigger kick out of you doing an air r2r than an ollie bs 180, unless you ollie over something. Not that wakeboarding is about the people in the boat or the crowd, but I bet everyone would agree when the crew in the boat is stoked on your riding the session is that much more fun and fun is what wakeboarding is all about. alright enough one handed typing, stupid cast!

http://www.wakepics.com/video/20673/booya-ollie
Old    John G (malibujohn)      Join Date: Aug 2010       09-02-2010, 9:51 AM Reply   
Wow, this started quite a discussion. Thanks for the replies the air roll to revert in Andy's youtube video is what I want to nail, as well as keep working on all the wake2wake versions. I agree man up and go for it is the right attitude. I saw my buddy take a knee to the chin doing a mexican back roll into the flats, so I've been thinking about a mouthguard.

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