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Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       07-26-2010, 1:06 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctimrun View Post
What doe the evolution tower look like? So I know what to stay away from if I go the Avy route.
here is mine
Attached Images
 
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       07-26-2010, 6:02 PM Reply   
For all of those who say you can get a clean goofy wave on Enzo. This is one more from Dennis Enzo 230

11mph with Enzo sac (1400#s because it is the short side) + ~300#s in the bow + 750#s on the surfside seat + 380#s in peeps. Blade turned off. ~2800#s total

@ragboy: Dennis goofy wave is more like what I am use to seeing on the Enzo dark side. Like I said before, it takes about 500lbs more in weight. But it is very achievable.
Attached Images
 
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       07-26-2010, 6:18 PM Reply   
I was just posting the above pic....Lakesurfer beat me to it...lol

One more angle.
Attached Images
 
Old    Matt (duramat)      Join Date: Feb 2008       07-26-2010, 6:44 PM Reply   
" So I guess that settles it right" ?

Them Pics are beautiful!
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-26-2010, 10:46 PM Reply   
That wave is definitely clean, but still not as nice as the other side. The fact that you have to put the plate all the way down to try to subdue that rooster tail means you have to knock the wave down.

So it may be settled that an enzo can achieve "decent" wake on the opposite side, but there is a large disparity between sides. You have to remember, my kids are all goofy buy 1, 5 of 6. If a contest is pulled by 2 enzos, and there is no right surf boat, the difference in wakes is obvious, and I feel like goofy riders get thrown under the bus in those cases, and that is why it has been an issue for me. The first contest we were at with enzos, was 2007 Worlds, there WAS a right surf boat, and there were no complaints.

So if you want an enzo, and mostly ride regular, and you know you CAN throw a decent goofy wake if you have to, but most of your "peeps" go reg, great. That makes sense to me. People should just be aware of that before purchase, it is not the same, and to get decent on opposite side, needs a significant amount more of weight. Doesn't make it a bad surf boat IMHO. For me, I want a great wake on both sides, just as easy to make. But that is just me.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-27-2010, 6:17 AM Reply   
cant you order an enzo with the drive reversed? will that make a better wave?
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       07-27-2010, 6:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragboy View Post
That wave is definitely clean, but still not as nice as the other side. The fact that you have to put the plate all the way down to try to subdue that rooster tail means you have to knock the wave down.........
My boat doesn't have a moveable wakeplate. So I didn't knock the rooster tail down anymore than on the regular side.

The darkside is not as great as the regular side but it is still good, not like that wash shown in those french pics.

No boat makes an exactly equal wave on both sides due to prop rotation.....
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       07-27-2010, 6:59 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarFanatic5 View Post
cant you order an enzo with the drive reversed? will that make a better wave?
You can order which ever prop rotation that you want from the factory for the side that you want to have the best wave. LHRotation for regular wave and RHRotation for the darkside.
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       07-27-2010, 7:18 AM Reply   
@ragboy: so you would rather have a boat for your weekend personal use that has an equally good wake on both sides rather than a boat that has a great wake on one side and a good wake on the other? I dont understand that. This thread is about what boat I would want in my garage and use every weekend. Personally, I would rather have a boat that is awesome on one side and very good on the other than a boat that is very good on both sides.

I do agree that a contest should be pulled by a boat that has the same wave on both sides (for example: I would rather have an Avy/RZ2 pull a contest if I cant have a both a right and left prop Enzo) but that is not what this thread is about.

In any event, all of these boat have great waves. In a way, it like arguing over which Victoria Secret model is hotter.
Old    ScottRobinson            07-27-2010, 7:34 AM Reply   
lol which model is hotter....that really puts it in perspective huh..... gotta love logic man! Great post.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-27-2010, 9:53 AM Reply   
@jkw I think the Avy, RZ2, Ve, Supreme V226, Sanger also put out great wakes, I don't think the enzo corners the market on that. You may feel that way, and that is fine, that is cool, I don't.

2 things to understand.

Every weekend for me means that no only am I completely happy, but my entire family. And part of that means that great wake has to be relatively easy to make on both sides also, or it becomes a chore, and the family loses stoke. Many of you know exactly what I mean, and deal with this. When the kids or the wife start bitchin about the sacs on the seats, or dealing with the pumps, it takes away from much of the reason we go out on the boat. My family loves, and I do mean loves, going out on the water 2x a week, we don't go out on weekends. We go out every wed and fri at 1pm til dark. We put 250 hrs on the boat every season, 200 of that solid surfing. We have slips on the water at Lake Oroville where we have our pontoon, 2 wave runners and the Tige. And we use all of them. We have visitors all the time and use the pontoon as a "doc" and tie the tige on one side and the skis on the other when we have families out with us. This last weekend we had extended family from texas, and several were goofy, and several were regular. We taught 5 people to wakesurf just this last week. Its a flip of a switch on our Ve, and will be even easier on the RZ2. On top of that, I can use the RZ2 when we put on events, good enough wake for a pro comp on both sides.

2nd thing to understand. I am not "stuck" with my Ve, or the RZ2. Many people, like I did in 2007, buy a boat, then find out about wakesurfing and try to make a wake, and then have to make it work for them. They can't afford to get another boat, or deal with the wife when they say, "Honey, I need a different boat for wakesurfing". I felt like I was in that position at the end of the 2008 season. RJ and I were on a quest to find the best boat for us, we were going to head into the 2009 season with the best boat for us. I was willing to replace my boat, and I could afford it. We looked hard at a Sanger V237, and even considered a "right surf" enzo. We have had many outings with those due to contests like Castaic, and Turlock, and then friends boats like Sean Cummings, etc.

I dropped the enzo from the list quickly, because I was thinking of starting wake9, and we always entertain anyway, I had to have a great wake on both sides. The Sanger definitely fit that bill for me. If I was going through this exercise today, I would also have SERIOUSLY considered the V226.

At the turlock contest, they had a Sanger on the grass you could get in and look at thoroughly, RJ got a lot of demo time on it, and for the first time I got to see Chase and James Walker do a set behind the Sanger V237. RJ and I were inspired. They loved the wake, and so did RJ. I got to see first hand it made the same great wake on both sides, and this was when I met and got to know Dennis, the master weighter, and I saw how easy it was to weight. Same exact weight both sides, and hundreds of pounds he was adding, not thousands. Awesome. But when going to the bow, and the shallow seating did it in for my family. I am 6'2 and with 6 kids, it just didn't seem a good fit. I don't like feeling like I am sitting on the ground, and the bow was tiny. My family LOVES the bow.

So the sanger lost PURELY for aesthetics, the wake and the ease of the wake, and the fact it rode higher in the water than a V215 all made it work. So feeling dejected due to the aesthetics, we tried to figure out why we couldn't make that wake on the Ve. It did well on the regular side, but on the goofy side you had to list it over just a bit more and there was this HUGE cut in the wake and we noticed it from the deck. Long story short (too late) we swapped the deck so that it made no cuts or turbulence and we plumbed in custom Enzo style sacs and we were done. And ecstatic. We had a great wake on our Ve, on both sides. And we put in a plumbed system over the winter. I had the boat I wanted.

So the short of that was, if I wanted or thought the enzo was the best boat for me, I would have bought it at the end of 2008.

Hope that puts it in perspective for me. I should add just one thing. I expected the 24 foot hulls, the RZ4 and 24Ve would put out a better wake than the 22 foot hulls from tige, RZ2 and 22Ve. It wasn't until we reviewed that RZ2 that I realized the RZ2 was better than the 24Ve. So when I pursued Tige, I was after the RZ2, not the RZ4.

Long post, but I think that explains my decision.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-27-2010, 10:05 AM Reply   
Probably should add 1 more thing, sorry. I left out the Avy above, because believe it or not, I have YET to be around one in person. People I trust very much agree it makes a wave on both sides. But also state to me that a sanger, tige, supreme, just as good. Also, I didn't pursue, again, because of the bow. When we were buying our boat in 2007, we looked at supras, and dumped them off the list right away also due to the bow. Our family LOVES the bow, kids up there all the time. We really don't like the playpen, or even step over into the bow. Its a small thing, but big thing for us. If the Avy made a 6' wake or something, I would consider. Just a preference thing, and the RZ2 has an amazing bow, and you can even sit up there and face perfectly backwards extremely comfortably.

When we reviewed the RZ2, my oldest daughter, and my wife were ready for me to get that boat, immediately, just cuz of the bow. Just a preference thing.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-27-2010, 1:00 PM Reply   
I agree with what ragboy said, I entertain alot aswell, and nice wave on both sides is a must.
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       07-27-2010, 2:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarFanatic5 View Post
I agree with what ragboy said, I entertain alot aswell, and nice wave on both sides is a must.
What Ragboy does not understand is that the Enzo wave is AMAZING on one side and VERY GOOD on the other. Ragboy has not been even been on and Avy and maybe has been on an Enzo twice. So for him to be the resident expert is basically laughable. If the Enzo is so bad, why is it the boat of Inland Surfer, Towanza, Shred Stixx, Drew Danielo, etc. The only problem I see with the Enzo goofy wake is that it takes about 500lbs more to make it clean. I can also tell you from experience that my Avy is dialed in (and I think Ragboy would agree the Avy makes a great wave) and the Enzo has noticeably more push at the back of the wave. To be honest, for me this is not that big a deal, but if you are over 225lbs, you would absolutely feel the difference. As for room, both the Avy/Enzo are basically like the Ve. I have to have 10 people plus gear for my Avy to feel crowded. I dont know of a lot of people that consistently go out with a crew of 10. However, Ragboy does so the more room in the bow because of the pickle fork makes a lot of sense (which some people like and some dont. I personally think it is nice)

At the end of the day, please go drive as many of the boats as you can. Take a few fat sacs and see what type of wave you can make on your own. But for me, Ragboy's argument is like saying I would rather have two BMW than a BMW and a Porche 911 because they are the same car. This way no one will get their feelings hurt because they can only drive the BMW and dont get to drive the 911.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-27-2010, 4:05 PM Reply   
I am not attempting to be the resident expert, just offering my opinion, and when asked, giving you the basis for my opinion. I just don't agree that the enzo regular side wake is amazing enough to warrant a boat that doesn't do the same thing on both sides. I also think, that I am a target demographic as far as the way my family uses the boat. Many people/families use the boat the same way that we do, and find our opinions helpful.

At the end of the day, I fully agree you should test as many boats as possible, but it isn't always possible.

Lastly, we have been out several times, where RJ at least, if not several of our crew has surfed behind the enzo, sometimes the 230, sometimes the 240. Probably 5 or 6 times. RJ even got a session with Mark Sher on Lake Samamish last year, and they only were setup regular, so RJ had to ride backside. RJ thoroughly enjoyed the time, and was inspired by Mark Sher, who is one of RJ's heros. I really enjoyed the time I got with Sher also, what a great guy. Ashley has ridden the regular side of the enzo 2-3 times. Several of these times were at contests where the boats were weighted professionally. And I have personally stared at TONS of video because I edited all of this myself:

http://wake9.com/blogs/1st-northwest-wakesurf-open/

So that is how I have based my opinion. If you think that is not enough to form an opinion, by all means, ignore it. For those that are deciding on what to buy, I hope I have laid out what I think, along with why I think it, clearly. It is only my opinion whether you buy an Enzo, Tige, Sanger, Supreme, MB, or anything else, I welcome you to the wakesurfing community. No matter which boat you choose, as long as you are not a tool ( ;-) ) then you are welcome to hang with us at anytime on Lake Oroville. Just give us advanced notice.

And if any of you want to show off your wake, like Pete from the Bay area, or any of you with an enzo or whatever.... Just contact me on wake9 and we will drag out the pontoon and the waverunners and hit it from every angle, and do a podcast and document that make and model boat. Would LOVE to do it. So more people can get a good look at it, and decide, regardless of my opinion. Any manufacture can take me up on that also. Just get the boat to oroville.

I still have a planned outing to do just that, but I am visiting sonoma, to get a good look at the monster wake of DJJamez. Can't wait to see that beast, and watch RJ have some fun on that wake. Maybe we can take some pics of TBone on it.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-28-2010, 6:19 AM Reply   
Every enzo pic I have seen has an amazing regular side wake.. I haven't seen any goof foot wakes... does anyone have a goof version of the enzo?
Old    Ajholt7 (ajholt7)      Join Date: Apr 2009       07-28-2010, 6:39 AM Reply   
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       07-28-2010, 7:30 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarFanatic5 View Post
..... I haven't seen any goof foot wakes.....
See the 2 pics above for the enzo goofy or dark side wave.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-28-2010, 9:48 AM Reply   
@ajholt7 I would love to get a Z1 on oroville and really give it a run for its money. I hear its a good surfwake, just have not seen it in person.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-28-2010, 9:52 AM Reply   
is that what that is in that pic, a Z1
Old    Jason Johnson (JasonDJ)      Join Date: Mar 2010       07-28-2010, 10:33 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarFanatic5 View Post
is that what that is in that pic, a Z1
Yes that is a Tige Z1.

Tige just released some photos of the 2011 boats on their facebook page...check it out...they are sweet!

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/...0532516&ref=mf
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-28-2010, 11:18 AM Reply   
sweet boats... love the 24ve
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-28-2010, 11:20 AM Reply   
Y, that Ve in the 2011 pics is amazing looking. Looks like my new RZ2. I actually think I like the looks of the Ve better, sleeker, but I want that RZ2 bow for room and comfort.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       07-28-2010, 11:26 AM Reply   
ya looks good
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       07-28-2010, 4:27 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarFanatic5 View Post
Every enzo pic I have seen has an amazing regular side wake.. I haven't seen any goof foot wakes... does anyone have a goof version of the enzo?
The right-surf Enzo would have superfantastic wave on the goofy side and the great wave on the regular side...
Old    Dennis (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       07-28-2010, 4:50 PM Reply   
@ dennis The wake in the 2 pictures above looks to be about 1' tall. Even the picture from water level doesn't look very big. How about the step in the wake as well. Not that impressed.
@ jkw The people you mentioned as riding the Enzo : Inland Surfer only rides the regular side. They tried to do the goofy side at the contest in Seattle and failed . Drew rides and has an Avalanche which makes a good goofy wake. Shred Stixx riders ride on the regular side. Everyone you mentioned are either given boats at a big discount or free from Centurion. Not the most unbiased opinions.
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       07-28-2010, 5:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennish View Post
@ dennis The wake in the 2 pictures above looks to be about 1' tall. Even the picture from water level doesn't look very big. How about the step in the wake as well. Not that impressed.
........
I'm not trying to impress the "master weighter". I was showing that the goofy side Enzo wave can be surfable and clean....even though popular opinion is that it can't be done.

It is difficult to get height perspective in pics even with a rider on the wave...
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       07-28-2010, 6:04 PM Reply   
@ Dennis: I can only say that I have seen very clean waves on the Goofy side. Have you ever tried tried to weight an Enzo how we have described in this thread. I doubt it. Your comment about "sponsored or at a big discount or free Centurion" is funny since your buddy Ragboy has been on most of this thread giving his opinion about an RZ2 - the wakesurf boat of Wake9. So how unbiased do you think his opinion is when he either got it for free or at a large discount.

BTW, last I checked, Drew rides an 2010 Enzo 230.

The point I tried to make in this thread is that you can not just dismiss an Enzo because of goofy wave that people on the west coast can not seem to figure out. I believe a few guys with Enzo have proven that it can be done and have provide pictures and the set up for people to follow. But at this point, I am just sorry I even chimed in on this thread.
Old    Matt (duramat)      Join Date: Feb 2008       07-28-2010, 8:05 PM Reply   
BOAT FLOATS, TO MAKE BOAT MOVE: ADD A FRIGGIN PROP, PROP IS GONNA SPIN THIS WAY OR THAT WAY (RAG will have you think his does both), ONE SIDE WILL ALWAWS BE MORE DOMINANT AND FAVORABLE (Rags does the same thing but puts his blinders on)

Quote:
@jkw you are probably right about the centurion, my only experience with them has been Inland's boat, Sean Cummings, boat 2007 Worlds, and at least one other I can't remember, all heavily weighted.
Note to self: Everyone here is Heavily weighting their boat bottom line.

Quote:
But we have had experience with the goofy wake on enzos, 1 time with a right-surf boat, wake was great, and 3 times on normal left-surf boats. All 3 times, boats were weighted to give the best goofy wake, and I would not have called it a great wake at all on goofy side. It was very lacking from the regular side on those boats. I have heard that an enzo with a LOT of extra weight on the goofy side can throw a good wake, but takes a lot more than regular side, and I just haven't seen it, not that it doesn't exist, just haven't seen it.
What Rag didnt tell you is that he was wanting some shade from the bimini and it was on the OTHER side of the boat and sat there, thus creating an unfair advantage to you the reveiwer.

Im really beginning to question if Rag really has a Tige or a Yamaha AR cause there is no way that both sides are equal on any boat DUE TO PROP ROTATION!

Am I to assume (make an arse of you and me) you do not at all change your trim tab, bennet trim tab, wakeplate, Taps, (whatever you want to call it) when switching regular to goofy????? you leave yours up always? or down? or do you have a fixed plate? You Pick on Islander and Lakesurfer for using the trim tab LOL You expect me to belive that you dont do anything different?

Rag I appreciate all your hard efforts for the sport, and youve done some great things and all and by all means keep it up, but you nit picking waves that arnt your "official Wake 9" isnt helping you any, especially when you havnt been out on them. Youve said you have had little experience with Enzo waves and weighting them all this and that and it was ok, but the first chance you get to Post up a half arse attempt from the frenchies goofy wave youve declared victory. Why even post that pic up if you have GARANTEED BETTER PICS on your friggin laptop of your family surfing Goofy behind a regular Enzo? I refuse to believe you dont have any pics out on that Enzo outing. I'll bet dollars to Doughnuts that your outing pics on the Enzo is even better than the french pic you posted to "Settle it". Obviously not biased. You are running a business, you are getting something for the use and promotion of pushing the Tige line. Tige is gonna be all over that they aint stupid, and neither are we. I think it would be in your best interest to say "Hey guys, this is our boat and weve chosen it and you ought to consider it" and completely stay out of the discussions of wave characteristics of other manufactuers. This thread has not been helpful to you and its obvious. The more you "Rag" on our waves (whatever brand that aint official to Wake 9) the more you'll lose credibility. Inland Surfer does not "Rag" or nit-pick any other boatbrand cause it wouldnt be condusive or benneficial to them in any way and it would be ticking off their base.

"Wheres the Tylonol, I have a headache"
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       07-28-2010, 9:18 PM Reply   
Looks like someone (duramat and lakesurfer) has said pretty much what I've been thinking. I'm outta this thread until some boat manufacturer is prepared to pay me to blindly endorse their product.

Good luck to Brendan in getting a surf boat.....test drive them all!
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-29-2010, 12:29 AM Reply   
I paid full price for my 24Ve. Was out today, rode 2 riders on the reg side, and 2 riders on the goofy side. Yes, there are slight differences from side to side, but they are slight. Same thing I saw on the Sanger V237, and the Supreme V226, the differences are slight from side to side. The regular side is steeper, and more forgiving if I don't quite have the boat listed all the way over well. The goofy side, needs to be listed all the way over, less forgiving, not much, but noticeable. If I don't get all the way over its not as steep. But that is with the same weight on both sides. The wakes are almost identical, and I have tons of video and pictures that show that, and at least a half dozen of the vocal members of this forum have been on my boat and seen both sides. And several lurkers have come out on my boat as well, and they have seen it.

Yes, you can say it, I am FAT, and so bring my own ballast. But go to the the review we did of the RZ2, WAY before the official wake9 boat...

http://wake9.com/blogs/blog/2009/11/...essed-to-kill/

I state the setup, and how much I weigh. I think I have always been as honest as possible. I chose tige, before they chose me, and that is well documented.

I do have pics and video of the regular and goofy wakes of the enzo, and stated so, with my kids riding, if you read above, I posted this link:

http://wake9.com/blogs/1st-northwest-wakesurf-open/

Lots of pictures and video of my kids and others behind 2 regular enzos, no right surf. I do have some pictures of my kids on a right surf boat from the 2007 worlds, but would have to dig them up. It was a great wake, but I don't feel like I am missing anything. I am very happy with what we have.

There is no question I love my Tige better than other brands, but its not the only boat I promote to other people. I have made it clear on wake9.com that we want to promote great wakesurf boats and we consider that to be:

1. Great wake
2. Wake is made with ballast hidden and 100% water
3. Wake is almost identical on both sides with almost identical weight on both sides.
4. Water isn't too high, over rubrail when weighted.

That is MY list, MY preference. I have stated that I think the Tige Ve's and the RZ's accomplish that, not sure of the other models. I have stated the 22' Tiges seem better to me for making a wake. I have stated that I have seen the same thing as far as great wake that meets the above requirements on the Sanger V237, the Supreme V226. And that I have good first hand accounts of good wakes like that on several MB models, and the Centurion Avy.

I have also stated that I have enough personal experience to state that the Enzo does not meet the above criteria, and neither does the sanger V215 in my opinion. The V215 rides too low for my taste, even though a great wake on both sides. And the enzo does not throw the same great wake on both sides like these other boats do. Every post supporting enzo above, pretty much validates that. You guys say it can make a clean wake on the opposite side, with a bit extra work, but know it is not near as good. For instance, if the Enzo produced a wake on both sides, that was equal to its BAD side, you wouldn't buy it. Its only the good side that makes it worth it to you.

And if it is worth it to you to have a great wake on one side, and an OK wake on the other with some extra work, GREAT. BUY it. ENJOY IT. I don't care if you think that is better for you than a tige, or sanger, or supreme. I only care that people looking for answers about surf boats know that the enzo will produce a great wake on one side, and a surfable, but not great wake on the other, with some extra work.

And if you want to see that a boat, can make a great wake on both sides, with the prop rotating in the same direction, well, there are several V237 owners, V215 owners, Avy owners, Tige owners, and I am sorry if I am forgetting a few, that see it everyday, and if ask nicely, would probably take you for a ride.

Lastly, I am at the moment supervising my crew (kids) packing up all of our video and transmission equipment and loading into a trailer for the Washington NWWSA contest. We are giving our time to video and broadcast the event online, and put the video up. The boats are 2 Centurion Enzos. Both regular surf like last year unfortunately. Which means my kids will not get as good of a wake as the regular. Bummer, but thats ok, we will have a good time. Because we get to spend time with some great people like the entire NWWSA crew, the inland surfer crew, Wakeshredders, FlyBoy and much more. People we really enjoy spending time and surfing with. Looking forward to the event, but bummed about the wake. I know the NWWSA folks are great people and do a great job, but its still a bummer for my family.

Anyway, stoked about heading to washington, and this broadcast should be better than the festival. We crashed a tige that morning, and had to scramble to do a one boat setup, and I was rushed and we had issues with broadcast. I think this will be the best one yet, and I don't mind that its Enzos we are displaying. And you won't hear a word from me during the broadcast about the enzo wake. I put a higher priority on the promotion of the sport.

So feel free to tear it up, I am heading out of town and may not post for a while.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-29-2010, 2:19 AM Reply   
Sorry, forgot to respond to one important thing. When you look at our videos on the goofy and regular side, the taps is always up, around 5 or 6. We never put the taps down, except for when we are towing small kids, and thomas likes wave knocked down a bit. Steep face scares him a bit. In those situations, we put the taps down to about 3 to knock the wake down. Also, when we have had Sean Cummings or other skimmers on board, same thing, they like the wake knocked down a bit, taps down to 2 or 3. All other situations, we weight the boat EXACTLY the same on both sides and with taps EXACTLY the same.

Dennis, correct me if I am wrong, but we broke one of the boats at the Wake9.com/Tige Spring festival so had to pull the comp with one boat. I am pretty sure we pulled the entire contest, with same weight either side, and I think the taps was the same. You can find all of that video here

http://wake9.com/blogs/2010-wake9-ti...surf-festival/

And the camera was mounted in exact same place on both sides. Dennis, correct me if I am wrong, the same thing was true of the V226, you setup the same on both, right? Even wakeplate?

The Sanger V237 we rode in turlock and the one we rode at Castaic, I think the same was also true.

You may choose to not believe that. But why would I lie? I have better things to do. Not to mention, anyone can come down and see for yourself.

Same thing with the RZ2 video review we did, it was all the same. Taps same on both sides.
Old    Dennis (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       07-29-2010, 6:01 AM Reply   
The setup on both sides of the RZ2 at the contest was the same. We had no choice as we switched sides several times during the contest and could not off load weight. I setup the Supreme the same on both sides as well. As was the Sanger V237 at Castaic and Tulloch. In fact the Sanger at Tulloch and my Sanger V215 have a fixed plate.
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       07-29-2010, 6:59 AM Reply   
@Ragboy/Dennis: I promise this is my last comment on this thread
1. this thread is about which boat I should buy not which boat I should pull a contest with (I agreed earlier that I would only pull a contest with an Enzo if I had both a right and left surf because the wakes are not the same on both sides. However that does not mean the wakes are not good on both sides but just different)
2. Being able to use the same set up on both sides is not relevant. What is relevant is being able to get a good wave on both sides. If that takes a different set up so what. What is important is knowing what the set up for each side is and that they are safe.

Note: I am not actually telling him the Enzo is the right boat for him. I am saying that if you want a surf boat and are looking around you owe it to yourself to drive/test as many as you can and the Enzo should absolutely be on that list if you are looking at 23/24ft boats.

Last edited by lakesurfer; 07-29-2010 at 7:07 AM.
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       07-29-2010, 7:18 AM Reply   
@Ragboy: good luck to everybody this weekend!
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-29-2010, 7:59 AM Reply   
@jkw I agree, he should test as many as he can. The bottom line is that I think someone looking for a boat should know that the wakes are NOT the same on both sides, so that when he does test, he tests both sides. I think you would agree, that is something you wouldn't want to find out after you bought the boat. Then he can make a good decision. If he doesn't mind the extra work (too some people that isn't much, too others a sac on the seat is not acceptible) and if he doesn't mind that the opposite wake is still not as good, then he should buy it. Its just about good info. I mean, if I personally demoed for someone, both sides of an enzo, and both sides of my RZ2, and they still wanted the enzo, wouldn't bother me a bit. Its not about choosing tige over enzo. Personally, if it were just centurion, I would pick an Avy over Enzo, just me. So its not a centurion thing either for me.

Thanks on the luck, I am really looking forward to it. I am actually getting my new Tige on friday in Washington, so lots of reasons to be stoked.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       07-29-2010, 8:31 AM Reply   
Sold my 07 Avy, 2 months ago for 37 and it was loaded with Roswell Vamp pro spins, spin surf racks, 2 amps sub and so on. At 22ft the Avy will throw a good wave without crazy amounts of weight. I guess we had 1800 plus 3 @ 180 in the boat for a great wave, only 2 in and one riding was only good. I had a blade and it made all the diff. The Avy has an aweful wakeboard wake (think about resell) without the blade. I did not get a new one because the new tower is a foot plus over the windshield when folded down. it's also a wire pincher. It is a solid boat and mine had a PCM in it and never gave me one bit of trouble. I did have to replace the bling but it was covered. I had a Skylon Tribal tower, good but a little bendy.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-29-2010, 11:09 AM Reply   
Thats depressing, 37. I am trying to sell my 24Ve, almost better to keep it.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       07-29-2010, 11:36 AM Reply   
Well I bought it new in the summer of 08 for 45, put about 7 more in it, almost 3 summers on it or 300 hours, 5 grand a year, I wanted a quick sell. The dealer here in FL "HAD" a 2010 Avy that he sold for 52 with decent options on it. 11's are out now so 10's will be going cheaper if you can find them.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       07-29-2010, 4:49 PM Reply   
@ Ragboy, on a strange note and positive for boats ...check this out, So I bought an 08 BMW 535 for 52 and I bought an 07 Avalanche for 52 (after add ons) . So I sell the Avy for 37, at BMW store getting service and go see a sales person about what I can get on a trade.....drumroll.....28... but they will sell me my same car back for 35, so does a year older boat win? who'ed a thunk ?
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-02-2010, 6:46 PM Reply   
anyone rode behind a Z1? interested in this, as from what I have read its pretty sweet wake. Any idea the price difference between a Z1 and RZ2?
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-09-2010, 12:56 PM Reply   
@ragboy:

So now that you had a chance to see it again in person, what is so wrong with the Enzo goofy wave? I would really like some non-Tige biased feedback that you always promise. You bash the Enzo every chance you get so please inform us why that wave sucks. I see a clean,/meaty wave that Keenan is able to ride way back on. I can only imagine how nice the "regular" wave was.

From my understanding this is a 2010 Enzo with regular surf. Making this video of Keenan Flegal's Prelimiaries run the "goofy" side.

http://wake9.com/community/content.php?252

Here is the 2010 Enzo regular with Chase for reference. IMO - just awesome

http://wake9.com/community/content.php?269

Last edited by lakesurfer; 08-09-2010 at 1:04 PM.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-09-2010, 1:07 PM Reply   
wow... dude was way back in the pocket!!

anyone know the pricing comparsions between and enzo and rz2?
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-09-2010, 1:09 PM Reply   
I have meant to post on that. But I have been slammed. The wake was much better this year, and my thanks go out to inland and I think Sean Cummings for working hard on it. It definitely was not to the same standard as the regular wake. However, all of my kids, including RJ felt it was good, and they were able to do their runs. Last year, it was not like that.

So, to summarize, it was MUCH better this year, but definitely not as good as regular. I think also having the world champion be goofy helps the goofy riders to a degree. But I am sure all goofy riders were important to the NWWSA and Inland.

My understanding was that the goofy boat took 1000 lbs of extra ballast to make that wake. There was approximately 3k of ballast plus judges/people in the goofy boat. I think 2k + judges/people in the regular boat.

So I guess that confirms that a good wake may be had on the opposite side, but with extra effort, which may be just fine for many people.

Thanks for reminding me, almost forgot to update on that, and it was on my mind.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-09-2010, 1:13 PM Reply   
Guys any know anything about the Centurion c-9 typhoon?
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-09-2010, 1:28 PM Reply   
@brendan I heard the Enzo were going way up in price this year, like close to 100k, but I don't know that for sure. The RZ2s have gotten pretty pricey, mainly due to options, but I think cheaper than the enzo. A dealer will probably have to chime in to be sure.

I know that the Tige Z1 is cheaper and puts out a nice wake, I have not seen personally, just pictures. And there is supposedly a new RZR coming out, with a nice surf wake. The RZR is supposed to be a low cost alternative. I will hope to get one on Oroville sometime this year to give it the full treatment.
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-09-2010, 1:29 PM Reply   
@Brendan: the typhoon is the same hull as an Avy just 23ft instead of 22ft. Both are 100in wide. They quit making it in 2009 because most people that went with 23ft boat bought the Enzo. It has a great wave and you can pick one up at a good price (most time they are actually cheaper than an Avy)
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-09-2010, 1:37 PM Reply   
Have you noticed that the 22ft Avy puts out a better wake than the 23? I know Sean thought the Enzo 230 put out a better wake than the 240. I ask that because I have been amazed at how much better and easier to make the wake is on my RZ2 over my 24Ve. 22ft on the RZ2 and 24ft on the 24Ve.
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-09-2010, 1:41 PM Reply   
@Ragboy:
You really have a hard time giving the Enzo any credit:

1. "I think also having the world champion be goofy helps the goofy riders to a degree. But I am sure all goofy riders were important to the NWWSA and Inland".: What does this have to do with anything. We have been throwing that wave in TX for a few years and I suck. All it took was a little knowledge.

2. "My understanding was that the goofy boat took 1000 lbs of extra ballast to make that wake. There was approximately 3k of ballast plus judges/people in the goofy boat. I think 2k + judges/people in the regular boat.": does not matter as long as it is safe

3. "So I guess that confirms that a good wake may be had on the opposite side, but with extra effort, which may be just fine for many people".: Always hedging. That wave is much better that "a good wake".and how much "extra effort" could it really take to fill one more sack

4. "So, to summarize, it was MUCH better this year, but definitely not as good as regular.": this basically agrees with what I have saying this entire thread. You get a 911 Porche on one side and a BMW M3 on the other. Both are better than nearly any boat out, especially the regular side.

Last edited by lakesurfer; 08-09-2010 at 1:43 PM.
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-09-2010, 1:46 PM Reply   
"Have you noticed that the 22ft Avy puts out a better wake than the 23? I know Sean thought the Enzo 230 put out a better wake than the 240. I ask that because I have been amazed at how much better and easier to make the wake is on my RZ2 over my 24Ve. 22ft on the RZ2 and 24ft on the 24Ve."

There are many guys that have said the Enzo 230 puts out a better wave because it carries the same weight as Enzo 240 but in a smaller boat, but to me they seem the same. There may be something to this because all of the Centurion team riders are in Enzo 230. However, you would have to be nearly a pro to tell the difference.

I can not comment on the Typhoon because I have never been on one. I have heard it is easy to set up like the Avy, but you can put larger Enzo sacks in it. So it will carry more weight under the seats. I actually think if you ride both sides a lot and have a big crew, the Typhoon would be a great boat to look at if you are in the used market.

Last edited by lakesurfer; 08-09-2010 at 1:49 PM.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-09-2010, 1:48 PM Reply   
I have no problem giving it credit. I broadcast credit all weekend. Stanley spoke highly of the enzo all day, and I didn't say a word, or even chat online during the broadcast about it. Stanley even said no other manufs. were getting behind wakesurfing, only enzo, and not tige, sanger, etc. I think that is completely wrong, but I didn't say a word, no problem.

I completely disagree with #4, but so what, it is my opinion. I think the enzo throws a mean regular wake, and a good opposite side but with a significant amount of extra weight. Which may or may not be a problem for various people.

I think that is fair credit. If I thought the enzo wake was that good, I would have one.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-09-2010, 1:51 PM Reply   
Ragboy you have any more info on that RZR?? That sounds like it might be right up my ally.. I really like the interior of the tige over the centurions.. The Z1 is nice, but I need at least a 22 ft boat. we have a 23 foot boat, and I cant go smaller, my wife would shoot me.. haha I think she would love that bow on the rz2 though.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-09-2010, 1:58 PM Reply   
The RZR is I think 20'. Info should be coming soon, I don't have any more.
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-09-2010, 1:58 PM Reply   
@Ragboy: "it is my opinion. I think the enzo throws a mean regular wake, and a good opposite side but with a significant amount of extra weight. Which may or may not be a problem for various people."

I am good with that. That much better than "@jkw I am sure you are correct that it is POSSIBLE to get a decent opposite wake on the enzo"

Also, great vids from NW contest.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-09-2010, 2:07 PM Reply   
Is the RZR specifically built for a surf boat?
Old    WakeDoc (riverrunner)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-09-2010, 2:37 PM Reply   
ragboy I am truly tired of every time I stop by hear you are going on and on about how Centurion can't make a good goofy wake when you have no real experience in any of the Centurion models. My Centurion makes a goofy wake that is as good if not better than the goofy or regular wake on your tige. My regular wake is bigger, stronger, taller longer than you could ever hope to make with the same amount of ballast in your tige. The FACT is my Centurion goofy wake is as big and just as good as any other boat manufacture out there. If I tone my regular wake down I can make them equal to each other and be just like the surf tige you go on and on and on about instead I choose to surf the MONSTER wake that ONLY a Centurion can make and all others compare themselves to.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-09-2010, 2:45 PM Reply   
@jkw Well, if we can agree on that, then hey, its all good.

Lots more videos to come, glad you like them. Should show you, I will film any boat and make it available. I would much rather people make their opinions based on stuff like that.

@wakedoc, man, just when jkw and I found common ground, you chime in... ;-)

First, I didn't say Centurion, I said Enzo. And second, I said that this past weekend I did see a good goofy wake, still not as good as the regular, but good. However it took 1000lbs of extra weight to make. This is the second time I have spent all weekend video taping enzo wakes.

Other boats can make a great wake, start here for the RZ2 wake from my boat:

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=782406

Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-09-2010, 3:13 PM Reply   
@brendan I heard the Enzo were going way up in price this year, like close to 100k, but I don't know that for sure. The RZ2s have gotten pretty pricey, mainly due to options, but I think cheaper than the enzo. A dealer will probably have to chime in to be sure.

RZ2 is 22 ft long like the Avy and 102 inches wide like Enzo 230. You can pick up a new 2010 Avy for +/- $55k and Enzo 230 for +/- $65K. I bet a new RZ2 is closer to $65K. The RZ4 is closer to Enzo 240.

Dealers are asking +/- $80k for 2010 Enzo but they are not moving for that much. I have heard that the 2011 Enzo 240+ will have a sticker price $90-100K, but I doubt they will actually go for that much. My guess is that the 2011 Enzo will go for +/- $80K
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-09-2010, 3:22 PM Reply   
I was just ball parked a 2011 RZ2 for low to mid 70's and thats just with a couple options that I mush have... seems centurion is cheaper... that c-9 typhoon might not be a bad buy there asking like 45k for it brand new.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-09-2010, 3:23 PM Reply   
then theres also a Z1 for like 46, and a guy also quoted me a loaded Z1 for 54... but I think 21 foot is too small, and I dont really like the layout of the z1
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-09-2010, 3:44 PM Reply   
@Brendan: the Tige is going to be more expensive. If you dont need the touch screens, etc that Typhoon will be a very solid boat with a great surf wake on both sides. Ragboy does not really mention that you can basically buy a Enzo 230/240 for what his RZ2 cost.
Old    WakeDoc (riverrunner)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-09-2010, 3:45 PM Reply   
Let me clarify, the FACT is my Enzo goofy wake is as big and just as good as any other boat manufacture out there. If I tone my ENZO regular wake down (instead of adding 1000lbs. to the goofy side to make them equal) I can make them equal to each other and be just like the “surf” tige or most likely better. I instead choose to surf the MONSTER wake that ONLY a Centurion ENZO can make and all others compare themselves to. When someone says wakesurf boat everyone thinks Centurion ENZO, except the haters like yourself. I have owned other boat brands and there is a reason I am on my second Centurion ENZO because they are the BEST boat made for wakesurfing and the ONLY boat manufacture that openly supports wakesurfing. Spending “all weekend videotaping enzo wakes” makes you an expert on weighting an Enzo and what the wake looks like or rides like, whatever! I have spent just about every weekend weighting, driving and riding behind an Centurion Enzo SV240 for the last 3 years and there is no comparing any tige to the superior wave that the ENZO can make.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-09-2010, 3:49 PM Reply   
ya at 45k for that typhoon 23 ft not a bad deal.. I wish we had a local dealer so I could check out these boats, but there isn't a tige or centurion dealer in cincinnati..
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-09-2010, 4:30 PM Reply   
@Brendan: Go to CenturionCrew.com. I bet there is somebody in Cinci you could get a ride from.
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       08-09-2010, 4:45 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragboy View Post
I paid full price for my 24Ve......
@CarFanatic5

Notice how ragboy never said how much he paid for his new RZ2?

He is paid to sling Tige'.......so salt is needed to digest his opinions on surf boats.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-09-2010, 5:56 PM Reply   
ya, I know he got the hook up from tige.. but in all honesty he has been helpful, and does build a strong case for tige. I dont think he has trashed any boat manufacture at all. he just said that the enzo requires more effort to get a good wake on both sides. I know that both tige, and centurion are both great options which is why I am looking at both.. In all reality the price of these boats, might have me keep my ar230 for a few more seasons so I can save up and get what I want 100% and be happy..
Old    WakeDoc (riverrunner)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-09-2010, 8:19 PM Reply   
Brendan that is why I spoke up, some people love spreading the rumor that Centurion ENZO's goofy wake is not as good as the regular wake and the fact is the goofy wake is above average and the regular wake can't be beat. Believe what you will but this is fact and the ONLY people you hear PREACHING this BS is the people that have NEVER owed or spent any real amount of time on a Centurion ENZO.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-09-2010, 8:49 PM Reply   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

When you make ignorant comments without backing them up, that is propaganda. Everything I have said I have backed up with enough images and video that someone reading can make up their own mind. And I don't care what boat brendan or anyone else buys, as long as they have lots of good valid information to base it off of.

I will say it again, I am in a RZ2 because that is the boat my family and I wanted. We chose that boat, and chose Tige. If I wanted an enzo, I would have one. Its that simple. My preference is for a boat with a great wake on both sides, with equal work, you know the list, scroll up. That isn't just tige. That is boats like a Sanger v237, Supreme v226, Centurion Avalanche, and my Tige RZ2. There are others. My preference would be to choose any of those boats ahead of enzo. My opinion.
Old    WakeDoc (riverrunner)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-09-2010, 9:07 PM Reply   
EXACTLY you make "ignorant comments" comments about Centurion Enzo's without being able to back them up since you have NO true expierence with one so STOP spreading the "propaganda" that Centurion Enzo's can only make wakes on the regular side without right surf when the FACT is a Centurion ENZO's goofy wake without right surf is equal or better that the wakes on both sides of any tige boat and the regular Centurion Enzo wake is superior to the tige wake and can not be beat.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-10-2010, 6:43 AM Reply   
you can get the enzo in a goof set up from them aswell.
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-10-2010, 7:21 AM Reply   
@Brendan: you can buy an Enzo that will produce the best wave on whatever side you decide. So if you surf 90% on the goofy side (ie starboard side) you can buy a "Right Surf" enzo. A Right Surf Enzo has a transmission that spins the prop in the opposite direction of a regular Enzo. This way the cleanest wave is on the Starbpard side.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-10-2010, 7:45 AM Reply   
ya, I read that on there site.. I"m gonna have to go check these boats out.. plus the price tag has me on hold for maybe another season or 2. I wanna buy what I want and be done with it. maybe pick up a left over or one or two year old low hour boat.
Old     (RedRocket)      Join Date: Aug 2010       08-10-2010, 8:02 AM Reply   
Subscribed as this thread is relevant to my interests for when I go to pull the trigger in about a year.

I have the exact same thoughts as you Brendan as I am also trying to do some serious research first as I want to buy the right boat that will suit my needs.

Just wish the time was closer to me pulling the trigger.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-10-2010, 8:07 AM Reply   
I hear that! These boats are pricey though... takes time to save that kinda cash..
Old     (RedRocket)      Join Date: Aug 2010       08-10-2010, 8:15 AM Reply   
Pricey, yes. I may be moving out of Oregon next year and if I'm planning on spending ~$50k, I need to do it before moving as OR = no sales tax. Right there is incentive enough

It's just that wake surfing is the clincher for me to move away from the ocean to somewhere warm and my wife is OK with that. Now, I just need to get her to understand my under $40k price point is going be more like $50k if I can find the right deal...probably a couple years, low hours, used boat.
Old    Brendan (CarFanatic5)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-10-2010, 8:25 AM Reply   
yup
Old    Harold Hemming (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       08-10-2010, 10:02 AM Reply   
http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/boa/1890322575.html red if you are in Oregon you should check this one out great buy at a great price
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-10-2010, 10:55 AM Reply   
@H - the only thing I dont like about the boat in Portland is that it is not a C4. So it has the walk thu on the starboard side. This cuts down significantly on the size of the back locker (so you wont be able to put a very large custom sac in it). It also does not come with the wrap around seating like the C4 so it can only carry 10 people instead of 12 people.

Personally, I would try to find a Avy C4 model
Old    Harold Hemming (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       08-10-2010, 11:07 AM Reply   
not a big fan of the walk through either but if you surf mostly regular you could learn to live with it for the price
Old    David (colombiansurfer)      Join Date: Sep 2008       08-10-2010, 1:19 PM Reply   
After reading all of these post it looks like a ad for Tige. I have to agree that Ragboy has a sweet looking boat, no doubt. I have even commented on what a good looking boat it is.

I have an Avalanche C4 and before I purchased the boat I went and checked out all the other boats. I knew I wanted to surf more than wake, due to knee troubles. I tested the Avy with just the stoke ballast and used an Landlock to ride. We had 2 other people, Salesman, wife and me, on the boat and I was able to surf with just the stock tanks only and ropeless. I was not able to do that with any other boat as well as I did with the Avy. There are some great boats out there and they are coming along in the surfing a little at the time. But when you hear the name Centurion, you think Surfing. Malibu - wakeboarding, Mastecraft - my first born, etc.. Each boat company hones in on there specialty.

Adding weight. I switched out my tanks for enzo sacks because I want a bigger wake. Adding extra weight to a boat is what everyone does, no matter whom you are. Do you need to add a ton? NO. Add what you need to get the results that you want. Can I ride both goofy and regular? You betcha! Great wake on both sides, in fact I think my wake may be a little better on the goofy side than the regular. Do not know why, just my opinion.

All boats cost $$$, and this year is no different than last year they all are going up in price and costing more and more $$$. Are these crazy prices? YES, but they are in line the the rise of prices all over.

So Bendan, if you want a good boat to surf and not be stretched out on payments, look for a good used Avy C4. And welcome to Haters World!

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