The WWSC is this week in Minneapolis, and I saw that the folks from Towanza are setting up the boats that will pull the contest. I know JUST ENOUGH to be dangerous. Centurion Crew is saying that this 2011 model will be offically announced at the WWSC and details made public...and folks at CC are indicating the ballast system is that auto fill pure vert that started with Calabria, right? Then Epic.
Rumor is pure vert hard tanks like the MB. But in the pictures you will notice ballast exit holes in the stock locations. So I am guessing it still has normal enzo ballast system. It would actually be pretty sweet. Lets guess 1000 pound hard tanks (pure vert) under the floor on each side. Then the stock bow sac and dual mid ship and locker tanks. Each mid ship and locker is #250. So you could be at an enzo sac like wave stock. All of this is a guess based on the pictures and knowing how the older enzo ballast system works.
I saw the exit hole plumbing but was wondering if the hard tanks would need a "relief" so that the air wouldn't get trapped. The consensus is a combo of the "pure vert" hard tanks and normal pump for bow and mid? That's interesting.
No the pure vert would need to be under the floor. The stock enzo ballast has hard tanks in the lockers and mid ship. So they would be on top of the vert system. It has enough vents and exits for having both. So that's my guess. I could be wrong.
Calabria did it first, but MB took it to a different level. It can only work with sub-floor ballast, as the tanks have to be under the water line. I have it in my MB and it is by far the best ballast system ever made. here is a quick vid.
Yeah, we're just theorizing at this point, but wouldn't the hard tanks need a vent to the air above the waterline? There is naturally air in the hard tank and as the boat settles transom heavy some of that air travels up and forward, to the highest point in the tank and I'd "think" some of it would get trapped even if the tank is below the waterline. Like pushing a cup upside down in the water - but poke a hole in the "bottom" of the cup and all the air escape.
Yep, There are 1'" vent holes at the front of the tanks, you can see the port side one just under the rubrail in front of the MB Logo in the vid. Yes, they blow hard, when filling. The tanks in the MB's are very long too, they run from the stern to the driver's/spotter's seats. And to answer the next question, yes there are big baffles in the tanks to prevent sloshing.
Hey Rob who is Mike Murphy? I like the concept of the tanks under the floor and basically being the same on both sides - my starboard side fat sac is 2 feet shorter than my port side. Alan are the baffles like a maze? So the water has to flow around everything?
I tried to get a hold of murphy last year, through the site to do an interview. Never heard from him. It seems cool.
Just my opinion, but if the purevert system was in the RIGHT place, so that when filled on one side it through an awesome wake, then you can quickly empty and switch and throw a mean wake on the other side, there is NO doubt, that would be insane.
I would love to see a boat throw a competition level wake, with automated stock ballast like this on both sides, that would be killer.
Someone told me that the new enzos were going to be like $100k +, is that true?
oh, one more thing, I am assuming that you can fill purevert on one side or the other, not just both, is that correct? I have never seen a video or anything where they show just doing one side. Enquiring minds want to know. ;-)
I have the Pure Vert in my Calabria team V. 1100lbs. total. 550lbs on each side. There is a 1inch vent hole on each side of the boat. They 'whistle' when they are being emptied on the water which is kinda cool.
It fills/empties soo fast.
It blows peoples mind when we open the gates after pulling the boat out of the water on the launch. They're just amazed about how much water was in the boat!
Lets say, I am surfing on the starbord side and my wife wants to ride next on the port side. When I get in the boat, I open both vents for 60 seconds, then close off the port side and pull her up, within another 60 seconds the starboard side is empty and the wave has formed. That is a 120 second switch.
Yeah - can you imagine being able to switch back and forth in 5 minutes? All underneath, I love that. The Towanza folks are claiming "specifically" designed for wakesurfing - but that's an easy label to throw on. However, the Centurion folks have enough folks in the field that I'm sure someone would say - one side at a time! I was just looking at the pure vert vids above - if you can ignore that Murphy proclaims hmself to be the worlds best kneeboarder they show the potential to have rear tanks, AND a belly tank - so it sure seems possible that they could have a completely automated surf ballast system. The inlets at the back feed that side and the tanks have the RV waste gate valves to open and close the hard tanks. Maybe the only restriction being the order in which you fill the hard tanks? Really cool concept.
The pure vert ballast system was the selling feature for me when I bought my Calabria Pro V2, You do not need to deal with pumps, hoses, bags. ext,ext.
to fill-open valves with switch let it fill, takes 50 seconds. To drain open switch throttle up to 9 Mph watch gages, when empty close valves and take off.
Its funny to see the faces of people when I start empting the ballast and the vents start to whistle they thing the boat is going to blow up or something.
whats really great is not having to have people in the boat moving all over the place to get the boat leveled out while wakeboarding just a flip of a switch on what ever side is heavy and the ballast empties so quick that you can get the weight right in secounds.
@ Rob, we surfed a Calabria Pro V at a contest in San Jose - Wake Surf Jam I think and the surf wake was NOT spectacular. In order to make it a decent wake, still required additional fat sacs etc. If you think about it, most of us have a ton of weight in the rear lockers. I would think it would be possible to design a hard tank that basically fills most of that rear corner, plus underneath, but if it's just a flat tank like in the video of the pure vert system, then this just supplants the need to add bags and lead. It's being "billed" as surf it right from the factory maybe in fine print (right after adding another 500 pounds) OR maybe they have made some L shaped enzo sac style hard tank. If that's the case and it's just a flip a switch done in 2 minutes, that would be seriously cool.
@ surdad, Yes there is always something better. The Prov2 is not as wide as the proV, it bits into the water better. When we surf, port side full, starboard side half, wake plate all the way up and I have a 350# sack in the port side beside the engine. If we have less then 5 people in the boat I fill another 350# and put it on the floor on the port side. It is a great wake. But you are right. It does not matter what kind of boat you have you still need extra fat sacks.
I have heard that the 2011 Enzo has a very good out of the box surf wake with the new ballast system. I am guess that it is pretty close to an Enzo with 1,500lb Enzo sac. I have also been told that you can fill one side or the other and switch sides in like 2 min. BTW - this is from guys that have seen it and are not trying to sell me a boat. They were very excited about the new ballast set up, dash, interior and PCM engine. They basically ranked the interior upgrade right up their with Bu. If you look closely at the Pics, its says Enzo 240+. I really think Centurion has made so many changes to the Enzo that they are going to rebrand it. That fact that they are having a new under the floor ballast system means they had to have it recertified by Coast Guard.
However, my guess is that the new 2011 Enzo will have a very new price tag will be up their with Bu 247
Calabria, MB, now Centurion. Mine fills in about a minute, and drains in 45 seconds. It is my 2nd favorite feature on the boat. (F21) The wake is my favorite feature on the Tomcat. Screw pumps, hoses, impellars, etc. who needs them
Yeah - that is my expectation, but what I found interesting was a statement by the organizer of the WWSC, in response to someone asking about how much weight the system added:
They're 2011 Centurion Enzo SV240+ models. You don't need anything except factory ballast Wheelhouse. With the 2011 Pro-Ballast, you're ready to surf from the dealer. Another innovative Wakesurf specific design from Centurion Boats as they continue to dominate in Wakesurf boat design, innovation and manufacturing. SV240+ !
Blow off all the hype, it would be seriously cool if it lived up to that statement.
Surfdad - I usually dont by into the hype. However, the guys that told me actually saw it and surfed it and were very impressed with it. They usually are not very impressed by much when it comes to manufacturer wakes. I have been told that it is pretty close to having a 1,500lbs Enzo sac on one side. I guess you will get to see it in person this weekend.
Sweet! I'm looking forward to a test spin on Thursday and I'll snoop a little to see if it's truly "factory ballast" or has a little help If they can pull it off, basically take the community knowledge and put it in a factory direct package it would be very innovative (sheesh I used that word too! ) That the boat would come from the factory DIALED in for surfing AND with this pure vert quickness in the fill and empty. I'm liking that concept.
@surfdad I agree, it would be amazing to have a factory boat, comp level surf wake on both sides, all automated. Would be amazing. And switch in 120 secs? That would blow my mind.
Although, I have to admit, I don't mind the switching time, just hate dealing with lead and/or pumps. It needs to be all automated. We all jump in the water and mess around when we switch, so that part is not a problem. It would seem, that in hull, less moving parts, maybe more reliable? The again, if something does go wrong, are the parts easy to get to? I have no idea.
@ragboy - you will never see a boat manufacturer have a comp level surf wake. They would not want the liability that would go along with all that weight in a boat. Any boat company could do it, they just choose not to. All we can hope for is a very solid/clean wake that is very surfable. If you want to make it comp level, add people or weight. (Note: you dont see any SAN/Bu/MC with 3,000lbs out of box wakeboard set up either)
The reason I am so excited, I have ridden an Enzo several times with just Enzo sac and people and it is a great/clean wake. So if this is anything like that, it would be the best "out of the box" surf wake. I guess we will know for sure in a few days!
@jkw We had only about 1200 lbs or so in the rear corner of the RZ2 for comp. That boat reacted well to little weight. I think it is possible. Tige stock surf/pro ballast is about 650 in the rear corner. I think if you added about 600 lbs to that, which would be possible stock, it would be right about there.
[QUOTE=ragboy;1611213It would seem, that in hull, less moving parts, maybe more reliable? The again, if something does go wrong, are the parts easy to get to? I have no idea.[/QUOTE]
Ragboy... the only moving parts are the doors that open and close. They are about 6 inches deep in those transom holes. They open side to side like automatic garage doors. If the doors ever break, you can easily access them. At the bottom of each locker there is a small, carpeted access panel just above the doors.
I know a lot of MB and Calabria owners... I have yet to hear about a door that failed. So I believe they are quite a bit more reliable than pumps.
@jkw I think the wake should be the standard to measure, not how much weight it took to make it. I know when Dennis weighted the Sanger V237s also, it didn't take 2000 lbs in the corner to make a comp wake, I think it was less than 1000, but you can check with him. The epics took tons of weight, and still couldn't produce a good enough wake. The Supreme threw a great wake with less than 2000 lbs also. BTW, I am talking about the weight in the rear corner, not referring to weight up front.
@DBC That is very cool. Sounds like it is the future. When I was looking at this, and thinking of trying to interview mike murphy, I also contacted Larry Mann, he has been working on his Low Rider system, and I wanted to interview him also, but it never panned out, since I couldn't contact murphy.
For the record, here is the site for the Low Rider concept, also very interesting.
I've got a Team V, and there's no question you need extra sacs to get a good surf wake. However, the great thing about the Pure Vert is being able to switch from Port to Starboard surfing in 90 seconds. I fill all of my sacs (one in each locker and one in the walkway) and then like Alan, just fill the side you want to surf. You can go back and forth all day, no waiting.
Surfdad, the only way to fill a hard tank that is above the water line is with pumps. Since the Pure Vert is essentially gravity fed, any tank would only fill to the surrounding water line. UNLESS...you you built a scoop type filling system that filled a tank while under way. And then used the gate valve in back to empty...now that would be cool.
@NOR-CALabria - that would be a cool system - fill it while running so that it would fill above the waterline. I was just wondering if the internal hard tanks on this Enzo were shaped appropriately for wakesurfing. The one comment above was that it was "wakesurf specific"...and the long, low rectangular design of the pure vert system hard tanks isn't. We place the vast majority of our weight in the rear. I'd think that creating a hard tank that replicated that could be done or at least somewhat and then placed under the floor, but as jkw was noting it's a supplement to adding additional weight if you're looking for a contest class wake.
This is an MB F23 Tomcat hull. The big boxes on either side are all ballast. 2,400 lbs to be exact. Not sure how you could squeeze any more ballast than that under the floor, without adding significantly more freeboard or raising the floor more. Its already a very tall boat. You can also easily fit the enzo sacks on top of the floor in these boats as they have substantially more storage space than an Enzo.
I think the F23, F21, and TWB could be the mack daddy of all surf boats, but MB just doesn't market them that way and I don't think surf crowd has discovered the boats yet, since they did not come out until late 2009.
Full disclosure, I was a Centurion and MB dealer up until 2009.
@Ragboy - Sorry, you and I were talking around each other. I was not talking about 2,000lbs in the corner. I was talking about in total (ie. I thought you were talking about 1,200lbs total weight). You should be able to get a nice wave with 2,000lbs total weight plus people.
I only know of one "new hull" Tomcat in my region and he is not a wakesurfer. If I ever get a chance, I will try to hook up with him and surf it. I surf my TWB almost every night, but we never bring cameras, need to start doing that. We (3 of us) surf factory ballast only and just started taking wakesurfing more seriously as there has been a rash of ACL destruction in my crew lately. Everyone is getting their 3's dialed and starting to get some good airs.
Oh yea, Lakesufer, you got too good of a deal on your Avy to ever sell it.
"The all new Centurion pure vert ballast system is based on 1000 lbs. of ballast, the ballast can be divided and be filled 500 lbs. on the port or starboard side independently. Mid ship ballast can be added on the top/floor giving 250 lbs. more on each side, plus bow and center ballast would give the boat approximately 1250 lbs. on each side from the factory for surfing or 2000 lbs. of ballast evenly loaded for other wake sports."
So this is basically 500lbs rear locker (under floor), 250lbs under side seat, 250lbs center tank and 250lbs in bow = 1,250 on each side.
@jkw no problem, yes, I was referring to only the corner, I should have been more specific.
@surfdad, yes, thats what I meant, the images and animation on murphy's site made it look very wakeboard specific the way the weight/tanks were.
Looking at the latest update from jkw that seems to hold a lot less then the MB boat pictured. This still seems like a great move in the right direction, but looks like you will also need a sac, unless that 500 lbs is so well placed that it makes an amazing wake, but that doesn't sound plausible.
The Tige system has 250 I think under the floor, and then 350 in a bag above. But there is so much room to replace the 350 bag with a much larger one, and then it is still plumbed into automated system.
It sure is great getting more and more great choices.
Doesn't sound like 500lbs under a corner is enough IMO. I wonder how long that underfloor tank is to see how much weight is mid-ship? You could add an 1100lb jumbo sac in the locker and have all the under seat storage (pulling that 250 tank). Best use of space, but that 1100 takes 8+ min to fill with 3/4" lines and ballast puppy. Add another fill port on the bag and wire a valve that both pumps fill and it could be in the 4 min range.
I pulled my enzo sac out of my Avy to free up the bench seat storage and the 1100lb gets me 75% of the wave as before. Love the storage, not the fill time
@Stanely - from my understanding the custom sacs that Towanza sells are 1,500lbs and have added extra fill/empty lines that the standard Enzo sac does not have. I believe the Enzo sac from FlyHigh was built based on measurements from Enzo 230 and only has 1 fill/empty line. My custom Avy sacs from Towanza are about 1,200lbs with 2 fill/empty lines.
No matter what boat, I think your going to have to add a sac or two. I'm poor and can't afford a Enzo sack so I have to fill 4 sacs for a total of 1700 lbs from midship port side to the back, 250 in the center and 250 in the bow, port side. I'll never get rid of my avy. I'll just repower when that time comes. I still believe it throws one of the best waves on both sides. It is a bit weight sensitive, very touchy, but once you get it dialed it's on!
Well, they aren't going to put ballast in the boat, that is going to be over the coast guard approved weight rating. I think it would be possible, but only if they designed a surf ballast system that could only be loaded on one side and not on both, so the ballast couldn't overload the boat, as from the factory. So maybe the real future is something like the lowrider concept? Which will not affect weight rating? Dunnow.
I am very excited to test my new RZ2 coming, because it seems like just swapping that one sac on both sides, has the possibility (as yet untested) of being as close as possible to a stock comp surf wake. The pure vert seems WAY cool, especially switching sides, but if the tanks are not in the right place, and you have to add sacs, and can't plumb into the right left tank system, it loses some of its appeal. Just my 2 cents anyway.
So thinking of the future, a system that can be turned on side to side, that provides a comp level surf wake, and doesn't overload the weight rating.
How did epic do it? 4000lbs of ballast from factory, what was its weight rating?
We are in Minneaplois right now and last night I got the opportunity to talk with the foilks from Inland Surfer who weighted the boat for the contest. As noted by someone above, the hard tanks in the back TOTAL 1,000 pounds, 500 on a side - so there is additional weighting for the contest. My understanding is that an enzo sac weighs 1,250 so my guess is they've added another 750 to the hard tank. That is the MAJORITY of the weight is add-on to the existing system...at least at the back. I'm not sure what the enzo would surf like with just that 500 pound tank and no additional ballast. The ballast is all hidden the Inland folks were telling me it's got a lot of storage.
The boats look very cool and I'll be riding them today. Hopefully I'll have some pictures or a 2 minute ride report
How did epic do it? 4000lbs of ballast from factory, what was its weight rating?
I don't know how Epic does it, it's still rated for 15 or 16 people and the boat only weighs just a touch over 3,000 lbs unloaded. They must have some great foam in that thing! My buddy has one that I ride in quite often, still boggles the mind on how they can have 4,000lbs underneath.
@Jeff - The Enzo sac when full weighs right at 1490 lbs. A custom sac can weigh more or less depending on the size. Fly High claim they add 1500 lbs. In my Avy, I use the enzo sack, center tank, 3 pieces of eye candy up front, rope biatch, and one person on the surf side in the passenger observing seat. I have a very nice wake and lip. Never had a complaint.
@david is that full outside the boat, or inside? Have you ever attempted to weigh it inside full? It is something I want to do on my Ve before selling it, weigh what I am actually getting in them when we surf. Only way I can think is to capture what I empty and measure how many gallons.
@ragboy: the Epic weighs 3,200lbs dry. From my understanding it is constructed out of material/built in a way so the boat is lighter and more buoyant. The boat is able to be Coast Guard approved with the 4,000lb system because of this. Reality, do to it being so much lighter (nearly 1,000 less than my Avy or your RZ2) and more buoyant, not sure their 4,000lbs system is much different than your RZ2 (increased dry weight plus ballast). Even so, Epics system is still very cool.
@ragboy: do you run custom sacs in your Ve. With the size of your crew, you should be able to get a great wake on both sides with custom sacs. I have 1,200lbs custom Avy sacs on both sides. My sacs are identical in size - they fill up the entire back locker and the area under the seat all the way up to the driver on starboard side. So that should be a pretty good estimate if you are wanting sacs on goofy size for RZ2. I could actually run a bigger sac on the regular (most guys just run Enzo sac on that side). My guess is that David probably gets around 1,350lbs in his.
Guys, I have an Epic. The ballast/coast guard rating was explained like this. The hull is made with some "new" way of doing the fiber glass. They call it resin infusion. Don't ask me to explain the details, but I guess it makes it a lot lighter, and a whole bunch stronger. Instead of having spray foam in the floor, it's actually in the hull. I could be wrong here, but it seems a lot like a surf board to me. The hull is fiberglass/foam/fiberglass, all resin infused. I was also told it's construction is a lot like a Boston Whaler. Once again, I don't know.
I do know this, my last boat was a 2001 Mobius V. I now have a 2009 Epic. My insurance dropped significantly when I switched boats. This thing feels super solid, and I have no problem filling the ballast, and even putting an extra bag in the surf side locker.
Someone asked how Epic got away with 4000# in the floor. I think one of the differences might be the foam in the hull, vs the foam in the floor. With the foam in the floor, your removing foam to addd ballast. With an Epic, the foam is still there, so they can do 4000# safely.
#1 - It is not a coast guard rating
#2 - If it was a coast guard rating, they pertain to swamped capacity
#3 - Ballast is neutrally buoyant and would have no factor in the coast guard capacity, since they test the boat with the plugs out.
#4 - The plate is a NNMA rating, which means pretty much nothing and is based on what they feel is a safe number of people in the boat based on visibility and seating surfaces.
Thanks for the pics Jeff. I guess this answers the question on whether or not the NEW stock ballast system is going to provide a competition style wake. Who knows what else was hidden in the lockers that you did not see.
Still be interesting to see what the specs end up being