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Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       05-12-2010, 7:31 PM Reply   
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       05-13-2010, 1:45 AM Reply   
Wow, very dissapointed in her answers.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       05-13-2010, 7:23 AM Reply   
See, not everyone is against you.
Old    Big D (bigdtx)      Join Date: Feb 2005       05-13-2010, 7:34 AM Reply   
Marriage is a legal contract. Try getting divorced in a church.
Abortion is a personal choice that each individual gets to make on their own.
Baptists are against drinking and dancing but I don't see them picketing nightclubs or killing the owners.
People who try to force their religious views down other people's throat make me sick.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       05-13-2010, 9:08 AM Reply   
Actually, Big D, that is a common misperception... Baptists actually are against sex for fear that it might lead to dancing...
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       05-13-2010, 9:11 AM Reply   
Wow, I am very happy with her answers.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       05-13-2010, 9:14 AM Reply   
Don't worry Flight, she's in good company - Barb Bush and Nancy Reagan are also pro choice.
Old    Elizabeth LaMarca (lizzyb)      Join Date: Sep 2005       05-13-2010, 9:20 AM Reply   
I'm noticing a trend...
Women actually want a say so about their own bodies? Go figure!
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       05-13-2010, 9:22 AM Reply   
bingo
Old     (fatsac)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-13-2010, 9:55 AM Reply   
Booya! Too bad she couldn't speak her mind when it made more of a difference. Better late than never though!
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       05-13-2010, 10:25 AM Reply   
This makes me smile.
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       05-13-2010, 10:41 AM Reply   
Agreed.
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       05-13-2010, 12:14 PM Reply   
Good, intelligent well-thought through answers
Old    Manzo (zo1)      Join Date: Aug 2002       05-13-2010, 12:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Too bad she couldn't speak her mind when it made more of a difference. Better late than never though!
I actually applaud her for not undermining her husbands position at the time!

Amen for logic...
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       05-13-2010, 5:04 PM Reply   
I'm disapointed for a couple reasons.

1. You can't have it both ways. If you call yourself a Christ follower yet your views are in contradiction to what you say you believe, then what you say you believe, really doesn't have any real meaning for you. You can't pick and choose what you like and throw away the things you don't agree with.

2. Row v Wade gives abortion on demand. It is rare that the womens life is ever in question. Rather 99.9% of the time abortion is used as a thing of convienience. Yet when debated, they will always bring up the .01% rape, incest, health issues etc....

We won't win this debate here on wakeworld, nor will I change anyones mind. I guess in my world, the thought of anyone condoning the brutal mutilation of a baby in the womb is beyond my comprehension.
Old    Tim C (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       05-13-2010, 5:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by poser007 View Post
I guess in my world, the thought of anyone condoning the brutal mutilation of a baby in the womb is beyond my comprehension.
Mine too, Flight. I'm just glad the women I'm close too feel the same way I do.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       05-13-2010, 6:29 PM Reply   
That's kinda the whole point on both issues... do you get to enforce your "morals", or not? I say leave that isht to kooks like the Taliban.
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       05-13-2010, 7:06 PM Reply   
"1. You can't have it both ways. If you call yourself a Christ follower yet your views are in contradiction to what you say you believe, then what you say you believe, really doesn't have any real meaning for you. You can't pick and choose what you like and throw away the things you don't agree with."

It's sort of like being a Republican or Democrat. You might belong to one of the parties, but being a thinking person, sometimes you just can't go along with every single general belief of the party you belong to. Some folks just have to call b.s. when they see it. Some others follow along with everything blindly.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       05-13-2010, 11:02 PM Reply   
And some think the earth is 6000 years old and that Noah's Ark was just found in Turkey.

...
Old    Paul (paulsmith)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-14-2010, 6:55 AM Reply   
Sounds like this country might have been a lot better off with Mrs. Bush instead of Mr. Bush.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       05-14-2010, 8:04 AM Reply   
Yes because we all know who you bang is as important as fiscal and foreign policy.
Old    jimmy z (strife)      Join Date: Feb 2010       05-14-2010, 8:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
People who try to force their religious views down other people's throat make me sick.

Me too.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       05-14-2010, 9:00 AM Reply   
How about non religious people trying to push their views down religious peoples throats? That never happens now does it?
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-14-2010, 9:14 AM Reply   
Quote:
You can't pick and choose what you like and throw away the things you don't agree with.
LOL, like there is anyone on the planet that doesn't do that.
Old    Elizabeth LaMarca (lizzyb)      Join Date: Sep 2005       05-14-2010, 9:24 AM Reply   
Interesting Dan. Would you say you follow your faith 100%? Are you not guilty of picking and choosing as well?
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       05-14-2010, 9:29 AM Reply   
Don't call Dan Catholic, that is a serious insult to him and Rod. Of course he picks and chooses, he just doesn't see it that way. The bible, being a hodge podge of books collected over a huge period of time from a variety of authors and cultures, is sufficiently self-contradictory to allow anything undesirable to simply be explained away by another conflicting passage - which of course has primacy because, um, well, BECAUSE IT DOES.
Old    Paul (paulsmith)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-14-2010, 9:36 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Yes because we all know who you bang is as important as fiscal and foreign policy.
Wait, what? You're saying gay marriage and abortion are unimportant topics to you and your fellow right wingers? Can't make this stuff up.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       05-14-2010, 9:44 AM Reply   
Isn't any deviation from the Catholic church basically so people could pick and choose the things they didn't like about the catholic religion?
Old    Jeromy Leavelle (jleavelle)      Join Date: May 2010       05-14-2010, 9:47 AM Reply   
The funny thing is that abortion and the morals or lack there of have nothing to Roe V Wade. That Supreme Court Case has to do with primarily states rights. It basically took away the right of the state to legislate it. While it may be illegal say in Texas one could easily go to a more liberal state where it would readily accessible. As far as gay marriage goes and religious beliefs and whether or we are all hypocrites at some level isn't really for me to say. I would say if you don't stand for something you will fall for anything. I believe God sets a good standard for anyone to follow. The problem occurs in the we want argue the commentary of man rather than looking at what God himself said. Who cares how old the earth is or whether it will all end in 2012. None of that matters. If you spend all your time disproving theories one way or the other you never find any faith. I personally don't want to live in world with no faith in anything. If you dont want faith then would you go ahead and leave now. I guess then all your claims would be answered. At least you wouldn't have to theorize any longer. Faith is the center of the human spirit and ultimately is the thing that separates us. Creation vs Evolution will never be answered this side of eternity so whatever you believe requires some faith.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       05-14-2010, 12:10 PM Reply   
Kind of interesting, the catholic religion is based on roman paganism with actual Christ worship themes thrown in. The whole religion is a pick and choose and make it up as they go type thing. What many of you confuse is the catholic religion and prodestant offshoots as actually worshiping and praising Jesus who died on the cross and rose again. You are mixing two different themes.

Paul, I am actually pretty much dead on the middle of authoritarian/ liberatarian and actually mildly left when it comes to fiscal. If that is right wing then so be it. What I have is a disdain for intellectually dishonest arguments. Those arguments are a plenty. Like democrats vote for war that you swore did not happen. That right wingers are trying to ram their religion down your throat and so on. I don't seem to remember starting toll posts day in and day out attacking peoples way of life, but, I sure am going to say something when you guys are piling on. All people want to be is left alone.

Another dishonest argument is abortion. You can't stomach the sight of a aborted fetus. Why, because it is a little human in every way shape and form. Your arguments do not match the physical evidence. You are just stuck to what your leftist buddies tell you to think. You are against any sort of realistic reform in the name of some slogan.

You guys don't care about Gay marriage, the whole campaign is to stick it to christians. Gays could easily get legal rights. I think the state needs to be involved in marriage to encourage couples to have their 2.1 children to keep up the workforce and keep the population stable with Americans not third worlders. Having and raising kids is a huge burden as well as a blessing and the government should be involved from a generic policy standpoint to allow that to happen. Beyond that, the government should not give a crap about who is banging who.

At the end of the day, I mostly see emotional arguments from the leftists on here and don't really see too much in facts. You try to spout some stats from time to time but when confronted with equal stats the opposite way, you still yell emotionally that your stats are the ones that are right so we need more legislation.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-14-2010, 12:16 PM Reply   
Most people couldn't stomach watching animals get slaughtered but are happy to eat them when prepared and presented in an appetizing manner.

I don't see many facts in any of these arguments. I see people believing their opinions are fact.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       05-14-2010, 12:17 PM Reply   
"You guys don't care about Gay marriage, the whole campaign is to stick it to christians."

LOL
Old    Paul (paulsmith)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-14-2010, 12:18 PM Reply   
Like I said, when it comes to Rod, you can't make this stuff up.
Old    Elizabeth LaMarca (lizzyb)      Join Date: Sep 2005       05-14-2010, 12:34 PM Reply   
I especially liked this little piece..

"All people want to be is left alone."

Funny how that doesn't apply to things like the right to an abortion. It's my body, it's my choice and frankly.. none of your damn business. The end.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       05-14-2010, 12:44 PM Reply   
The inconsolable lunatic fringe of both sides of the aisle is the core problem with most political issues.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       05-14-2010, 12:51 PM Reply   
John. The argument is not about animals. The argument is about humans. It is about a human unless you consider children to not be human? Look at what a fetus is John. It has fingers, toes, a brain, a heart. It is recognizable in every fashion as a human. You are the ones who don't look at the physical evidence. Again I give you exhibit A when it comes to mindless sloganism It's my body, it's my choice and frankly.. none of your damn business. Again, a emotional slogan the does not look at physical evidence. Not even going to consider the evidence. Basically if you follow your slogan, the kid can be getting ready to come out and you can allow the doctor to sever it's head from it's body (that is the procedure btw) and you can call it a day. Yep, we sure need more of those types in the world. And believes in Christ are more dangerous to humanity? WHo is more willing to strike a compromise? Obviously not the one who subscribes to jinglism.

Typical No Fact Paul.

Then what is it Wes. Do you not agree that gays can get legal contracts and why are they not pursuing that. Instead it is about marriage which has been a religious contract before there were even governments.
Old    Elizabeth LaMarca (lizzyb)      Join Date: Sep 2005       05-14-2010, 1:15 PM Reply   
Those are your views on abortion.. they aren't mine. You have every right to feel that way as do I. There is nothing you can say to me or any pictures you can show me that will ever change my mind. Just as nothing I can say to you will ever change yours.

What I respect is a person's right to choose and make those personal decisions for themselves. That's fine if you want to play the morality police and tell others how to live their lives.. but it isn't your decision to make and it isn't any of your business.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       05-14-2010, 1:32 PM Reply   
It is not about morality. I am pro choice myself but I also can see the current position is wrong. It is about physical evidence. We have laws about murder of people including children on the books. If someone causes the pregnant person to lose a baby, they are charged with murder. It is considered a child until people decide it's not? You show me pictures that show me what I believe is completely wrong, I will at least examine my position. You? Is it anyones business if I decide to kill my aging parent because they are not affecting my life, is that OK? I mean that is the argument right, it is my life and you can't tell me what to do with it? You can make your choice but the evidence says you are killing a human. You can do it much sooner if you really wanted that choice.
Old    Elizabeth LaMarca (lizzyb)      Join Date: Sep 2005       05-14-2010, 1:46 PM Reply   
I do think it's conflicting to charge someone with murder of a fetus.. yet not recognize that fetus as a human being in abortion arguments. I can certainly see your point.

I'm not knocking anyone for being anti-abortion. I do, however, have a problem with a personal opinion on the matter being forced onto me. If you don't like abortion and you think it's wrong.. that's great. You don't ever have to have one. That doesn't make it okay to stop anyone else from having one if they don't agree with you. Your personal feelings on abortion, on marriage, on homosexuality.. on any of it.. have no place in laws that apply to everyone.
Old    Skubz (bflat53212)      Join Date: Mar 2003       05-14-2010, 2:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
It's my body, it's my choice and frankly.. none of your damn business. The end.
Except when it's my baby!!!!!! You should not have any right whatsoever to abort my baby if I don't agree with the decision. That is such a completely BS position. Yet woman complain when men aren't involved in a childs life. Society tells us from the beginning we have no say in the process. Just give us your money when the child is born, if I choose to have it.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       05-14-2010, 2:07 PM Reply   
I am all for not legislating opinion until it is proven that it is no longer opinion. I can see with my eyes that what we current let happen as abortion is murdering a little kid. It could be done much sooner. Morally I feel it is wrong, but, people have the right to choices. Grandpa is getting too old and costly to take care of. Let's take him hunting.

I would watch the slippery slope of personal feelings argument. That is the liberaterian vs authoritarian argument. I believe in live and let live but there are things that history shows as civilization and society killers. That is why it takes to wings to fly.
Old    Elizabeth LaMarca (lizzyb)      Join Date: Sep 2005       05-14-2010, 2:22 PM Reply   
I was referring to a stranger's opinion on abortion, not a father.

I'm confused Rod. You are a religious man, claim to be pro choice, yet state that abortion as it is currently performed is murder. What are the circumstances in which you are "pro choice"?
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-14-2010, 2:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
I am all for not legislating opinion until it is proven that it is no longer opinion. I can see with my eyes that what we current let happen as abortion is murdering a little kid. It could be done much sooner. Morally I feel it is wrong, but, people have the right to choices.
The anti-abortionists in Florida are trying to make it *later* by imposing hoops to jump through before getting an abortion. They want to make it where a women has to save up to get a sonogram and view the fetus before getting an abortion.

Quote:
Grandpa is getting too old and costly to take care of. Let's take him hunting.
Not the same.
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       05-14-2010, 4:28 PM Reply   
"You guys don't care about Gay marriage, the whole campaign is to stick it to christians"

As someone who is a Christian, and campaigns gay rights, this is highly offensive. Don't group me in with you, not all Christians think like you.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       05-14-2010, 4:31 PM Reply   
Obviously you're not a real Christian, Caleb.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       05-14-2010, 6:24 PM Reply   
Lizzy, thanks for the question.

I don't consider myself religious at all. I just don't like dishonest arguments. If any thing I believe in Jesus, not religion. Religion has been high jacked. So much so, people like wes think they know what christians are based on a religious studies program that tells them they are offshoots of the catholic church. Being a christian is simply a gift given to us by Jesus Christ. It is that simple. It is about faith and then the want to have fellowship. I do find abortion a sin. We are all sinners. I sin, you sin. With that, I am not here to judge people. Only God can do that. God is about giving you the choice to accept his gift or not. We all have choices and consiquences to the choices. That is what abortion is. It is a sinful choice but again a person is no more sinful than I am so who am I to judge in that regard. The reason it is murder is I can clearly see the age in which most abortions are performed, the fetus clearly is a baby.

Caleb, I don't think you can actually see the difference in what I am saying so why bother. I have even see television interviews where gay activists have said straight up that it is about revenge.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-14-2010, 7:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
Caleb, I don't think you can actually see the difference in what I am saying so why bother. I have even see television interviews where gay activists have said straight up that it is about revenge.
DH, are you seriously trying to extrapolate the stated motivations of some gay activists to all gay people in the same post where you are distancing your Christianity from mainstream Christian religion?
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       05-15-2010, 2:09 AM Reply   
(Nice little article on sin)

What Is Sin - The Big Question
We live in a culture where the concept of sin has become entangled in legalistic arguments over right and wrong. When many of us consider "What is sin?" we think of violations of the Ten Commandments. Even then, we tend to think of murder and adultery as "major" sins compared with lying, cursing, or idolatry.

The truth is that sin, as defined in the original translations of the Bible, means "to miss the mark." The mark, in this case, is the standard of perfection established by God and evidenced by Jesus. Viewed in that light, it is clear that we are all sinners.

The Apostle Paul says in Romans 3:23: "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

In light of this, it does no good to compare ourselves to others. We cannot escape our failure to be righteous in our own strength. This is by God's design, because only when we understand our weakness will we consider relying on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus.

What Is Sin - A Biblical Perspective
Sin is mentioned hundreds of times in the Bible, starting with the "original" sin when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge. Often it seems as if sin is simply the violation of any of God's laws, including the Ten Commandments.

Paul, however, puts this in perspective in Romans 3:20, when he says, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

God wanted us to recognize our sins. Even those who have not murdered or committed adultery will find themselves convicted of lying, or of worshipping false idols like wealth or power ahead of God.

Tragically, sin in any amount will distance us from God.

"Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor His ear too dull to hear," says Isaiah 59: 1-2. "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear."

We must resist the temptation to act as if we are righteous, especially by leaning on our good works.

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives" (1 John 1:8-10).

What Is Sin - A Call to Repentance
The good news in all of this is that, once we recognize ourselves as sinners, we need only to repent and embrace Jesus to be forgiven. Jesus can forgive us because he died and rose again three days later in victory over sin and death.

The Apostle Paul refers to this process of recognizing sin and being responsible for it as "godly sorrow."

"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death," Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 7:10-11. "See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter."
Old    Bret Rogers (bmr82)      Join Date: Jul 2008       05-15-2010, 4:25 AM Reply   
Abortion for me is a double edge sword. As far as my morals and beliefs go, I don't agree with it. One reason is, if you always give people an easy way out they will take that way. You can't make people be ressponsible for their actions but you can limit the options they have for not being responsible. If abortion wasn't an option maybe people would think twice about having unprotected sex with someone you don't really want to raise a child with. And there are defintatly exception such as rape and what not.

One the other side though, the last thing this country needs is more single mothers or teenage parents who can barely take care of themselves, much less another human being. And I most likely would have never met my wife if it wasn't for an abortion. So for me, it's definantly a tough choice.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       05-15-2010, 8:07 AM Reply   
I understand exactly what you are saying John. I just did not have time to really extrapolate the subject. I am just saying that marriage has always been a religious issue before there were governments. With that, I say that religion "owns" marriage for lack of a better term. So to go after marriage is going after religion by definition.

What the governments have are basically contracts. The contracts are part of social engineering. For a government to continue to function, you need a well establish like minded population. With that population, you get your tax base to continue the government. To help make the tax base stable, you have to have a stable population. To be stable, you need economic and social stability. To keep social stability, you need a generally educated and dedicated to the cause society. You also need people putting out their 2.1 kids per couple. Of the people putting out their 2.1 kids, you need those people to be stable as possible so the kids can grow and be educated and down with that plan. So, the government encourages people to get married and gives them credit for having kids.

The government should not pass laws that subvert that system.
Old    depoint50ae (depoint50ae)      Join Date: Jul 2005       05-15-2010, 8:34 AM Reply   
"I was referring to a stranger's opinion on abortion, not a father"

Lizzyb - What is your thoughts on the fathers opinions? I find it really hypocritical that women scream "choice" when the fathers have been stripped of all choice. We are at the whim of a woman's choice. We either shut up and pay for the abortion or child support. We have no choice to raise and would never have the choice to force the woman we conceive with to give birth so we could have a choice to raise a child.

Certainly the fathers are all in the same boat and legislation has been shoved down our throat.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       05-15-2010, 9:18 AM Reply   
"I am just saying that marriage has always been a religious issue before there were governments."

lol
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       05-15-2010, 9:35 AM Reply   
Wes.

LOL
Old    dennis engle (deneng)      Join Date: Feb 2005       05-15-2010, 11:07 AM Reply   
That is funny. Things are still the same after all these years. Abortion is something people do to make their lives easier. There are still many options avalible that do not reqire termanation of life.

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