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Old     (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       04-16-2010, 11:25 AM Reply   

Old     (wakeboardern1)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-16-2010, 11:57 AM Reply   
epic fail mr. oreilly.
Old     (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       04-16-2010, 12:00 PM Reply   
Guess Im going to jail. Ive been taking my garbage to the dump once a month for the past 5 years. Last week the city enforcer drove into my driveway and gave me a $200.00 ticket for not having garbage service through the city. I asked him why in the world he would come to my house? He said someone complained.

My house sits 80 feet off the road and is nearly an acre. My garbage is in cans and bags up under a carport that can barely be seen. He told me by city law i had to provide garbage service if I had someone living on my property. i told him I did have service just not rhough the entity they wanted me to. (It all ends up in the same place at Rogue disposal. He told me if I didnt get service he would continue to fine me if he saw the garbage next time he stopped by. I am putting a gate up so no one can come into my property. It saves me about 50 bucks a month doing it the way I have been for the past 5 years and no city code enforcer is gonna make me change the way ive been getting rid of my garbage.

Bill Oreilly may have had a brain fart or whatever, but I can assure you, when this health monster kicks in, people are gonna be wishing they never heard of Barack obama.
Old     (wakeboardern1)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-16-2010, 12:05 PM Reply   

However, the end result of not getting healthcare and refusing the pay the fine for not having it can be a year in jail, so they aren't lying. Exaggerating, yes, but that's what the news does.

Frankly, I think it's bullcrap that people have to pay the government for not having healthcare, under the risk of going to jail. Is this what we've come to as a nation? A place where you have lost your freedom to choose how to live your life without paying taxes because you don't have something? And then potentially being imprisoned for tax fraud because you are against a bill that is against the constitution?
Old     (stephan)      Join Date: Nov 2002       04-16-2010, 12:51 PM Reply   
So Nick if you don't have health care and you go out and mess your knee up wakeboarding, who is going to pay for that? Say you have an ACL reconstruction, those average right around $35k, are you paying for that? Are your parents? I just don't see how its bull crap if someone has got to pay for it, why not the person who is receiving the treatment?
Old    bigdtx            04-16-2010, 1:19 PM Reply   
And according to rudy giuliani there were no terrorist attacks when bush was president - only under obama.

it's sad and amazing how many idiots there are in this country.
Old     (lizzyb)      Join Date: Sep 2005       04-16-2010, 1:25 PM Reply   
Nick - I agree that it's utterly ridiculous to force people to have health care. However, to Steve's point.. if you decide not to have health care, you shouldn't be able to get free treatment. In his scenario, you shouldn't get that knee surgery and instead you should be dealing with the ramifications of having a torn ACL until you can afford to repair it.

If you'd prefer that, over being made to have health coverage.. I'm perfectly okay with it.
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       04-16-2010, 1:43 PM Reply   
Is this what we've come to as a nation? A place where you have lost your freedom to choose how to live your life...
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       04-16-2010, 2:27 PM Reply   
There is another option that does not include an entitlement mentality.... He doesn't get the ACL fixed if he is unable to pay for it. Instead of punishing me for his irresponsible choice to go without health care, why not allow him to suffer the consequence..?
Old     (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       04-16-2010, 7:59 PM Reply   
I have a question for everyone, right now if you tore your ACL and you didn't have insurance, would you be able to get care? Of course you would. I had elbow surgery and did not have insurance. I paid $200.00 per month for a few years till it was paid off. The problem is if you don't have insurance right now, this legislation forces you to have it. How many lower or middle class families who currently don't have health insurance would be able to pay the extra 400-1200a month for it? not many! If you currently have it though your employer, it's easy to say ohhh who's gonna pay for your health care us? But when you get laid off and lose your health care, how are you going to pay for it? The answer is your can't afford it. you would have to pay a monthly pay plan just like I did. Nobody expects you to get it for free.

But now if you can't afford it you will be fined (Another word for a tax increase) So the problem isn't giving everyone health care, the problem is was and always will be inflated insurance costs and health care costs. This current health care that just passed does nothing to address those two issues. All it really did was increase the amount of money the Government could tax us under the guise of health care for everyone. That was truly only a small part of the problem do to the fact everyone actually did have access to health care. So in essence what this legislation actually does, is give more money to the government do to massive fines, gives more money to insurance companies do to the fact that it forces people to pay for insurance they can't afford.

Because Obama wanted to pass health care legislation so quickly, we passed the most idiotic legislation that has ever come down the pike. This will do nothing to help drive down prices of insurance premiums or bring down health care costs. Anyone who can get behind this legislation just doesn't understand the underlying problems it will cause, not to mention it did nothing to solve any of the problems it was really meant to.
Old     (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       04-16-2010, 9:00 PM Reply   
Seriously, ignoring the fact that "something" was passed, is the left actually happy with this plan? This does little beyond making insurance companies and pharmaceuticals richer.

Last edited by trace; 04-16-2010 at 9:03 PM.
Old     (wakeboardern1)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-16-2010, 9:21 PM Reply   
Big Heavy, I'd like you to know that I've been dealing with the ramifications of a knee injury (luckily not as serious as a tear, it's a permanent sprain with microtears) without the benefit of health insurance. As a matter of fact, because of this stretched ligament, I've actually avoided tearing something else because my knee had a little extra leeway (or so I was told). Do I expect to be that luck to hold out, nope. Do I work out to keep my legs in a condition where they will hopefully not blow out a knee, yes. At one point this country held people accountable for their actions, aka, not getting adequate healthcare coverage. In this day and age the government is constantly telling us what's safe and what's not, what we're allowed to do and what we can't do because of safety issues and the inherent possibility of being sued in our way too sue happy society.

And trust me, I know first hand the terrifying feeling of something going wrong in your knee when you don't have health insurance due to economic conditions. So bite me.

And thank you flight, hospitals allow you to pay in installments like getting a car. It may take me forever to pay off, but at the same time, I'll be paying a fairly similar amount to insurance, and once it's paid off, it's paid off, instead of insurance continuing on. If I have something worse than a blown out knee, well then FML, but as Kurt Vonnegut said frequently in Slaughterhouse Five, so it goes.

EDIT: Also, I have torn ligaments in my right shoulder from weightlifting in high school. The shoulder grinds, pops and becomes too painful to lift if I wakeboard a lot over the course of a few days. I didn't discover the fact that it would do that until after we lost our health insurance because I looked at the pain in the shoulder as nothing more than normal aches and pains. I was wrong, but nonetheless, I'm currently dealing with it, without insurance. The only injury I've ever had that I went to the doctor for was a fractured rib, and that was for painkillers so that I could keep on going in football practice instead of sitting on the sideline.

Last edited by wakeboardern1; 04-16-2010 at 9:28 PM.
Old     (odub0perator)      Join Date: Mar 2010       04-16-2010, 9:44 PM Reply   
our democracy is falling apart. there truly is a bunch of retards in our government
Old     (chas)      Join Date: Feb 2002       04-16-2010, 9:47 PM Reply   
just remember we live in the land of the free...........
Old     (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       04-17-2010, 12:29 AM Reply   
We're a representative republic, not a's still falling apart so your point stands.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-17-2010, 5:28 AM Reply   
Originally Posted by poser007 View Post
Because Obama wanted to pass health care legislation so quickly, we passed the most idiotic legislation that has ever come down the pike.
That's right. Just because we spent a couple decades ignoring health insurance reform, it's the fault of the President that finally gets it done. Of course the GOP that's perpetually on the campaign trail instead of doing their job, have nothing to do with it not being a good bill. Just like now when the President and Congress is working on Wall Street reform the GOP will object to anything the current administration comes up with.
Old     (919chad480)      Join Date: Mar 2010       04-17-2010, 5:29 AM Reply   
Old    deltahoosier            04-17-2010, 7:59 AM Reply   
John, health care issues came about because too many people had insurance, not because they didn't. Health Care is a capitalistic by nature. The reason costs are up is because everyone has it now. The usage is way, way up. Requirements from the government is way up on the providers of equipment and service in general. The doctors and hospitals charge what they do because they can. They know they have more than enough willing people with insurance that they can charge up the wazoo. Adding more people is only going to make it worse. Sure insurance companies possibly could lower rates a tiny bit with money coming in and no one using it, but, the offset in usage is only going to drive up costs.
Old     (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       04-17-2010, 8:03 AM Reply   
Originally Posted by bigdtx View Post
And according to rudy giuliani there were no terrorist attacks when bush was president - only under obama.

it's sad and amazing how many idiots there are in this country.

I agree Big D, just look at who is in the White House and then you will see how many Idiots are in this Country.
Old    deltahoosier            04-17-2010, 8:10 AM Reply   
Also, what did the president get done? Screwing everyone with health insurance already? Give away more money to insurance companies while doing nothing to actually help costs? Doing nothing for the 15 million or so illegals that are not required to get insurance?

What exactly did the democrats do for the previous 6 years before they took power? Lie about their vote on the wars? Only criticize Bush at every move (all while lying about their vote in it)?

At the end of the day if they start taxing me too high and I can't afford things, the middle class will just stop buying goods and services that small businesses offer (you know the people who actually employ many of the working poor), or declare bankruptcy. People continue to forget that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Money out of the middle class (consumer class) only means trouble for the poor.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       04-17-2010, 8:40 AM Reply   
"And thank you flight, hospitals allow you to pay in installments like getting a car. It may take me forever to pay off, but at the same time, I'll be paying a fairly similar amount to insurance, and once it's paid off, it's paid off, instead of insurance continuing on. "

I don't see how this is economical or a good idea to you or Flight. Yes, you can finance a surgery that will have comparable payments to insurance, but that payment only covers your surgery. What if something else pops up, i.e. you blow out the other knee? Then you have double your monthly payment, but that only covers your two surgeries. See how expensive this could get?
Most families that "cannot afford insurance", for whatever reason, in most cases will not be able to afford the monthly payment for a surgery, especially in catastrophic cases; open heart surgery, cancer treatment, etc.

"What exactly did the democrats do for the previous 6 years before they took power?"

Since you want to play the blame game, what did the Republicans do when they had the House majority (starting in 94)? It amazes me that you look at one political party as "for the people" as opposed to the other.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       04-17-2010, 8:41 AM Reply   
" it's the fault of the President that finally gets it done"

Yes. Its his fault for rushing to come up with a plan to fix a very complex problem, with little forsight of what said plan could do to our economy.
Old    deltahoosier            04-17-2010, 10:33 AM Reply   
Jeremy, you again are making a logical leap of faith. The background on this website and many others was to bash Bush for every little thing. Keep posting illogical and callous pictures and rants. I don't like dishonesty. I know both sides like to add hyperbole to the discussions for effect, but, to continually posting up the other side for years while ignoring your own is dishonest.

As far as party for the people. I say they are both for themselves but if I had to look at the body of work and the words of the ruling elite, I would say the republicans are at least more US centric then the democrats. The Democrats are more Eurocentric and are for more centralized government power and I am not for that. Once you see where a party is trying to lead you over the decades, I can pretty much figure most things that are doing is not for our good as a country. Sure, you can stand for a few individual battles but the body of work is what I am looking at. Furthermore, I look at the democrats continued lie on their vote for the wars as another reason for my contempt.

With the realization that democrats are for more centralized power, you can see through most of the bills they propose. Guns grabs, more taxes, tax and trade schemes, using environmental regulation schemes to go around the voters to gain more power. Not that I trust any politician further than I can throw them, I just some less than others.

Two things I was hoping democrats would get a hand on, was the fraud in the stock market (shorting the market) and get rid of NAFTA and cut the bleeding from companies moving out of country.
Old    deltahoosier            04-17-2010, 10:41 AM Reply   
I guess I avoided the what did the republicans do for 6 years. Not much, but I kind of like it that way. You don't need to be passing law after law. The best system is one that runs itself. Ever hear of more things change the more they are the same? You don't need to knee jerk everything (like health insurance/ taxes). Some times you need to let it ride. When will people learn. Every time you pass a law, there are always going to be side effects. Pass a law that you have to write loans to people who can not afford them, then you get our housing crash. Cause and effect people. Nothing in life is free. As much as people like to stamp their feet like children, there will always be some sort of trade for services mechanism. The rule is if everyone has it then it is worth nothing. Get past your idealism and learn the realities of life. Long story short, I want government to do as little as possible because they usually screw it up.
Old     (deneng)      Join Date: Feb 2005       04-18-2010, 10:12 AM Reply   
We are also required to have trash service. 51 dollars a month. Toatally rediculous! They also make a ton of money from recyling our garbage. I am putting in a new driveway at my house and hauled off 20 truck fulls of concrete and dirt . Each time they want between 80 to 100 dollars a pop at the dumps. Screw that I found someone else who would take it and recycle it for half the price . I paid cash , so now the money will go back into the economy without Uncle Sam taking 25% off the top.
Old     (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       04-18-2010, 12:18 PM Reply   
Good fo your Dennis the menace hope things are well.
Old     (stephan)      Join Date: Nov 2002       04-19-2010, 12:40 PM Reply   
Nick, I guess I just look at it differently. As someone who has seen health insurance save a family (mine) when my dad had emergency open heart surgery. He was totally healthy and his eye doctor noticed small strokes in his eyes. He got it looked at the next day and that afternoon had surgery to repair a dissected aorta. The bill came out to more than $350k. So yeah, we could have paid that off, but it would have destroyed my folks retirement and quality of life. It's beyond being responsible, its saving family from the unexpected. My dad was healthy and playing racquetball the day before.

Hell, my roommate played D-1 volleyball and hurt her back in training at age 21. She has since had two back surgeries and luckily through her work she has coverage.

All I'm saying is that ish happens and not having insurance CAN be very irresponsible. Heck, using Flights numbers, say you need a knee surgery and it costs $35k. At $200/month you'll have it paid off in a little over 14 years. Starting now, you'll be 35 and hoping that you didn't do something else in the last 14 years. Might as well pay $200 in premiums and have all the other benefits that come with it.
Old     (wakeboardern1)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-19-2010, 7:28 PM Reply   
Big Heavy,

I'm inclined to agree with the idea of not having healthcare being irresponsible. But my stance is that it is not something that should be mandated by the government. It's not the government's job to make sure that people are being responsible. Following laws, yes. Being responsible, no. That's something a person should have to be themselves without it being forced on them. Will I have health insurance when I have a steady job? Yes, I will. But telling everyone that they have to have it or they pay a fine is absolutely ridiculous. The fact that you can go to jail and/or be fined 250K dollars for tax evasion for refusing to pay the fine/taxes that comes with not having health insurance is absurd, absolutely absurd.

It's the fundamentals of the government snaking it's fingers into every aspect of our lives that I can't stand about this. I was playing devil's advocate to a point when it came to the paying off the injury cost without insurance, but right now, that's the most viable option, because 200 bucks a month is distinctly cheaper than 4-500 dollar insurance that I can't afford. So it becomes an extra cost later on down the road, and it's just something I'd have to deal with, and it's something I would handle responsibly. It's not my intention to say that health insurance is bad, just the idea of being required to have it being bad. Health insurance is like having a license. Does it make life easier? Yes. Is it a right? No, it is not. Healthcare in and of itself isn't even a right, it never has been. These days everyone has a right to everything apparently, which is against my personal philosophy. If you work hard to afford healthcare, then yes, you get healthcare, if you don't work hard and you get healthcare, how is it fair to those who are busting their asses for it? My parents have busted their asses to get to the point that they are at financially, and yet, because they're closer to upper middle class than actual middle class, people think that they should be paying more taxes and supporting people. They've worked hard for their position, only to be told that they have to take that hard earned money and give it away in the form of heavy taxation to support a government that is so far in the red it's absolutely ridiculous.

The worst part is that they have jobs that do not work even remotely well with a failing economy, so we don't have health insurance, due to the current economic conditions.

Sorry,that turned into a kind of off kilter rant, hahaha.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       04-19-2010, 9:55 PM Reply   
"The fact that you can go to jail and/or be fined 250K dollars for tax evasion for refusing to pay the fine/taxes that comes with not having health insurance is absurd, absolutely absurd."

I don't see how it is not a good idea. Right now, I can choose not to have health insurance (for whatever reason), get hurt or have a serious illness, go to the hospital, agree to the payment plan, not pay it afterwards, file for bankruptcy, and the only thing hurting is my credit. Meanwhile, the bill that I skipped on is passed on to the responsible people with insurance. Doesn't this sound more absurd?
Old     (wakeboardern1)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-19-2010, 10:19 PM Reply   
And I'll tell you that it's not, this is why. We live in a pathetically hypochondriac society that is the United States of America. If everyone has insurance, they all go to doctors for even minor things. This increases demand and slows down treatment times/how long it takes you to get into a hospital. It's one of the main reasons that universal healthcare won't work in this country. One of my friend's dads growing up was a doctor. He was constantly getting bombarded with calls at home about medical problems, and I can't tell you how many times he had to tell people that it wasn't something to worry about. People look at health insurance as a way to go to the doctor for what is essentially free, so they visit it very, very frequently. This puts an increased strain on the insurance industry, and rates are forced to go up due to the demand.

If we had a practical society where everyone wasn't constantly researching their illnesses on the internet, going for worst case scenario, and then going to the doctor only to find out that they have no problems at all, this entire healthcare shenanigan would be a little bit more practical. As it stands though, increased usage of medical services through a perceived idea that insurance will pay for all of this is going to cause rates to go up as well. Maybe I just lack faith in us as a nation...
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       04-20-2010, 3:10 PM Reply   
"We live in a pathetically hypochondriac society that is the United States of America. If everyone has insurance, they all go to doctors for even minor things."

I don't believe that is true. I have had insurance for almost my whole life (a brief two month period between me getting out of the Navy and getting a job was the only time I didn't), and I never go to the doctor. I haven't been since my last visit, finishing my PT for my broken ankle almost 3 years ago. People that don't have insurance now, generally will not rush to the doctor because they are required to have insurance. It won't be free to go to the doctor; co-pays, deductibles, etc.

Maybe your issues are with the psychology of Americans, and not the Healthcare Bill.
Old     (wakeboardern1)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-20-2010, 4:52 PM Reply   
When we had insurance, I went to the doctor a grand total of around 8 times, mostly due to infections when I was a little kid (2 in high school), torn cartilage in my wrist in elementary school, a fractured rib in high school, and my knee injury(s). If you want to look at how people view health insurance that they only have to pay a deductible on, look at college students with their school's healthcare. I constantly see people going to the medical center here at VT for things like colds, a twisted (not sprained, just twisted) ankles, bruises, and minor scrapes. Yes, they do that. We as a society rely on doctors for literally every little medical problem imaginable, and yes, while there are a percentage of us who don't do that (which seems to be a lot of wakeboarders), there are just as many who go for every little problem and have thus become uninsurable. If you mandate insurance companies to sell them insurance, the losses incurred by insurance will be distributed amongst the other people in the form of increased rates.

I think the one good thing about the bill is mandating insurance to be sold DESPITE preexisting conditions (not mandating that everyone has it, just that it's available to anyone). Mandating it to be sold like that also means that as we become more researched in genetics, insurance companies won't be able to demand genetic testing to find out if a person has high risk genes and then deny them coverage.

And my issues regard the healthcare bill and how inefficient it will be knowing the pscyhology of Americans.

People will pay minor copays to go to the doctor for what is essentially "cheap" for them compared to before. There will be an increased number of insurance claims, and rates will not go down.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       04-20-2010, 6:44 PM Reply   
"When we had insurance, I went to the doctor a grand total of around 8 times,"

So when you get insurance again, are you going to start going to the doctor more often? I am going to make an assumption off of your posts and say no. Are you going to have people that go to the doctor for every minor issue? Yes, as you have relayed, it happens now. And yes there will be a few people that upon obtaining insurance will go to the doctor more often. But I am going to guesstimate and say that the majority of the "newly insured" will practice their same habits that they did before having insurance. That means going to the doctor for only dire emergencies.

The thing about rules is, there is always an exception.

In about 5 years, we are all going to forget why we were arguing back and forth about healthcare.
Old    deltahoosier            04-20-2010, 7:41 PM Reply   
This is going to make all people with insurance have to go to plans that will require you to pay at least 20% of your bill instead of your $10 copay. Going to be fun for the working poor who maybe did not make a ton but got a job for health insurance benefit.


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