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Old    Adam Fullmer (adam4x4)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-17-2010, 9:41 AM Reply   
I'm going to test drive both of these boat this weekend. I was wondering what all of could tell me about both of them. I wakeboard most of the time and have not got into surfing yet. But probably going to give it a shot. I'm not want to have to put more ballest in ether boat. at least for now.both boat are about the same price. I'm really looking for the pros and cons of these boats before I buy one. thanks to all
Old    Dave Kiehl (dave27)      Join Date: May 2005       03-17-2010, 10:07 AM Reply   
The V215 need weight to throw a big nice wake. The stock 250x2 rears and center 500, does not cut it for me. The boat is a little light on storage, but the boat runs like a top, is awsome through chop, and has tons of room for people. Also, I love the how low the boat is to the water. I know nothing about the other boat.
Old    Jarod Craig (wake26)      Join Date: Mar 2009       03-17-2010, 10:15 AM Reply   
tomcat all the way under floor balast, more room, better stock wake my .02
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-17-2010, 10:31 AM Reply   
I have an affiiliation with MB. However, I had a widebody last year and will get another one this year. It is basically the same as the F21 sans the pickle fork. I personally think it is one of the best 21 ft boats on the market. what you get right out of the box standard is a lot. The wake is killer and is surfable with stock ballast. The tower is incredibly solid and makes no noise, nor does it move an inch. Bimini is huge, TONS.. and i means TONS of storage space on this boat and it's got to be the biggest 21 footer on the market.

I do not have any personal experience with the Sanger so I cannot comment on that.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-17-2010, 11:27 AM Reply   
I think the TWB is the best wakeboard boat in the history of the world for the $$.

No time in or behind the 215, but have been in and worked on a few Sangers. I was impressed with the build quality.

Please post your results from the water tests!
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-17-2010, 12:10 PM Reply   
DI d you buy yet/ Do you want me to arrange a test drive for you on the F21?

HANDS DOWN better boat in all aspects. No sales pitch here, just go test drive both.
Old    Tim C (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       03-17-2010, 12:24 PM Reply   
Once you go Sanger, you never go back.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       03-17-2010, 12:28 PM Reply   
They both have a great following here on WW (more the TWB for MB). I'm a 215 owner and love it, it's been rock solid for me with no problems and I have certainly put it through the paces. I take damn good care of my boat but its pretty much a tractor (always pulling under load). I had an older MB and liked it as well they make great boats too. You're doing the right thing by checking them both out for yourself. The price points are pretty different so I'm interested to see if you feel its worth it.
Old    Mattt (motorcitymatt)      Join Date: Feb 2007       03-17-2010, 7:06 PM Reply   
MB all the way! No Regrets!!!
Old    Walt (Walt)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-17-2010, 8:03 PM Reply   
MB builds a nice boat but everyone I've been in has been slow to plain when weighted and had crazy bow rise. i know the surf wakes on the MB's that I've been in were great.

The Sanger V215 is a great boat. It has one of my favorite wakeboarding wakes. It is true IMO that you have to add additional weight (unless you ride slow) to it to get the wake big but when you do it's money. If you ask me most boats need more weight over stock. That's just my opinion though.

What's the cost difference between the two ? Sangers are usually hard to beat when it comes down to the dollars and cents and are one of the best bangs for the buck out there IMHO.

If I were you I'd go to the find a pull section of the forum and look for a ride behind both. (Hopefully slammed so you can really check out the wake) Maybe you can talk the owner into letting you drive it weighted ? There are a lot of boats out there that handle like crap do weird stuff when heavily weighted. (the 215 isn't one of them) You might also think about making a list of things that are important to you like (Wake,plain speed,storage,handling,price etc) and compare the two.

For the record I own a Sanger V210 and wish I had the V215.

Good luck with what ever you end up with !

Last edited by Walt; 03-17-2010 at 8:15 PM.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       03-17-2010, 9:52 PM Reply   
I don't know much about Sangers, except all the good stuff I read about them on this forum. I also watched their factory tour and was quite impressed.

From what I know about Sanger, they seem like a similar builder to MB... both are small, California based manufacturers who don't cut corners on materials or build quality. Where they save money is on bling and marketing. So they both offer dynamite boats at very reasonable prices. I'm a big fan of these types of builders. So I think you are wise to shop them both.

Now my MB endorsement... I do own the MB B52V Team Wide Body. This is the same hull as the F21 from the windshield back. Most folks think the only difference between the TWB and the F21 is the pickle fork bow in the F21, but there is one more subtle difference... the interior of the TWB is a couple inches wider than the F21 despite both boats having 100" beam. That's because the F21 was designed first. After getting a lot of feedback that people wanted to see that boat with a traditional bow, Mike B. decided to build one. In doing so he noted a few slight changes he could do the second time around to make the interior even wider... he made the walls above the rub rail more vertical and the gunnels a bit more narrow. That way he could get more width inside. It's subtle, but if you see the two boat side by side you will notice the center walkthrough on the F12 is narrower. That's why the TWB is rated for 16 people and the F21 for 14. Just some fun facts for you.

The reason I picked the TWB is that it has BY FAR the largest interior of any 21' boat. I had to get a 21' boat because of garage restrictions, but I still wanted a big boat that would easily accommodate two families. The TWB is just that boat. Most other 21' boats are rated for 11 or 12 people. The TWB actually seats more than MB's 23' B52V.

Other reasons I liked it: Most ballast (gravity fed), out of the box surf wake, PMC engine (quieter than others, imho), biggest bimini, super plush interior, no money wasted on silly bling, tons of standard features (two amps, two batteries, sub, zero off, power hatch, led lights everywhere, heater, beefiest trailer, etc.), and one more thing... PRICE! This boat is the best bang for the buck. Period. Boat show pricing is below $50k this year.

Here's a fun video I threw together last year to show how the ballast works and what the wake looks like. It would be better if there were people in the water... oh well. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v651LFNUPCk
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-18-2010, 6:57 AM Reply   
Awesome Pictures of MB Boats Australia Demo Day

F21 Tomcat BTW Great looking color scheme

http://www.facebook.com/search/?q=fa...2805896&ref=nf
Old    Jason (black_ops_09)      Join Date: May 2009       03-18-2010, 2:56 PM Reply   
Things I looked at too is where boats made, how long in business and customer care. Monday I took my boat to Fresno (the Sanger factory) for warrenty work on a inch stitching problem and fixed it(replaced whole panel) and fixed three little cuts on bottem of seat...no questions asked. Had it all done in like four hours.
If you were around for the issue I hade last year as new boat, the owner called me himself and fixed another warrenty issue,,,and it was HUGE!
Old    Mattt (motorcitymatt)      Join Date: Feb 2007       03-18-2010, 6:10 PM Reply   

I have to agree with DBC on 99% of his thread. Except for the TWB seating more than the 23V.... It's close but the 23 has more room.

Both are Great Boats!
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       03-18-2010, 7:49 PM Reply   
99%... huh? I'll take that.
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-18-2010, 8:07 PM Reply   
I am so glad I found this thread this evening. I am in the same "boat" as the OP. I am going for a demo ride this weekend on an F21. The boats in my list of demo's are:

1. F21 Tomcat
2. Sanger V215
3. Moomba LSV
4. Supreme 208 (maybe)

The pickle fork of the F21 puts me in my happy place. The like to "David's B52 Wake Test" was exactly what I was looking for. I know that the TWB is a touch different than the F21, but it is close enough for what I am looking for. I hate to thread jack this, but can anyone shed just a touch of light on boats #3 and #4? I'll post up what I think about my demo ride this weekend.

For all the TWB owners, how many beverages can you put in the center cooler? I spoke with Mike Brendel this past weekend at the Sacramento boat show. IIRC, he said you can put 24 12oz can and a 20lb bag of ice in there with no issues. Storage will be key for me, as is with most boating families. Where do the TWB owners put surfboards and kneeboards for storage while out on the water?

Thanks way in advance for any info.

Mario-
Old    Adam Fullmer (adam4x4)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-18-2010, 8:43 PM Reply   
Mario
In what I found is that a surf board will fit in the bottom of the rear lockers on the F21. i was told that a 18 pack and a 20 lbs. will fit in the ice chest. I wish that it was a little larger, i can not wait to drive both of these boat this weekend. MB has a lot of class, Mr. Brendel gave me a call today and ashed if i had any question that he could help with on the boat. I thought that this was very cool. he even said that if i wanted i could come up to the factor for a tour. I think this would cool.
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-18-2010, 8:46 PM Reply   
I store an IS Yellow Loogy and Kneeboard in one v-drive locker on the TWB with tons of room to spare.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       03-18-2010, 11:08 PM Reply   
I think the cooler is quite large. It looks smaller than it is because the hatch is kind of small. I load it with 3 small bags of ice (7lbs. each) and 20+ drinks. I don't remember exactly how many... I never counted. I just throw a sh*t load in there and we've never run out. The trick is to load the drinks first, then pour the ice on top. Sometimes I throw a bunch of string cheese in there too. I put a case of water bottles under the glove box (near the batteries) to replenish the cooler if we ran short. That case sat there all summer. I never used it.

For my surfboard I installed longer bungee straps for one of the racks. That allowed me to put my surfboard up on the rack. I just always assumed it wouldn't fit in the locker because it's 5'6" long. When I talked to MB at this years show, he promised me it would fit in the locker. So I tried when I got home... bingo! It worked. So now I have the surfboard, kneeboard, wakeskate, and two inflatables in the left locker. It's barely 1/2 full. My right locker has 15 lifevests in it. The lockers are soooo deep.

Here are a couple of pics showing the surfboard in the wakeboard rack. The key is that my surfboard is thin, not thick.



Old    Jeff (jumpman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-21-2010, 9:24 AM Reply   
Adam,
Wonering if you drove them yet? Looking forward to the results!
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-21-2010, 6:17 PM Reply   
Can't wait to hear the verdict, have a hunch.
Old    nEwJ_HoSeR (tinytdubb)      Join Date: Jul 2007       03-21-2010, 8:12 PM Reply   
I have ridden behind two Sangers. Great all around boats. I think you are dead on in looking at these two boats at your price point because you can't go wrong.

*hijack*
Does anyone know if you can get a F21 ghost? (all white) I cant stand the tribal theme.

*end hijack*
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-22-2010, 4:08 AM Reply   
MB's have custom graphics. Go to their website and you can configure the boat any way you want. So if you see a boat with the tribal graphics, that means that the owner wanted the boat like that.

Also look at the boat directly above your post. All white.
Old    Adam Fullmer (adam4x4)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-22-2010, 8:48 AM Reply   
Sorry for the wait . I really want to post pics of both, and will soon.
after driving the boats i like both of them.
Sanger
The boat that i drove was a 2009 full compost boat.
Very sporty to drive, this thing would turn on a dime.
one of the problem that i had was the guy did not know how to use that smart craft tow. it had a lot of setting and i could not get it to hold mph. it would only let the engine to about half throttle.
The boat seamed small in side. and did not have very much storage with the rear tanks in the lockers..
I really did not know what to think about the ice chest ether, look like it would leak back in to the storage.
the drive seat did not swivel and was not comfortable.
The wake was very nice. for most of the riders that i will be pulling i would not have to up grade the tanks.
the surf wake look nice to. but i have not tried surfing yet.
i had to make sure that people move a round to keep the boat wake right.
this was a fun boat to drive and enjoyed it very much.

MB F21
This boat was also a 2009.
I really like the room of this boat!
The storage is huge.
the boat road very nice. i even think better than the Sanger.
the boat was also quiet, just a nice engine noise.
the wake was very nice, and surf wake was huge.
the fit and trim of the inside was very nice.
this boat is put together very well.

So in the end for me the MB is the boat that i liked for my family. the Sanger need more storage for me and my kids.

I will post more soon(bat. going dead)
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-22-2010, 11:52 AM Reply   
Here is my personal take on the 2009 F21 Tomcat demo ride we did yesterday.

Location: Big Break, Oakley CA. (Delta0

We arrived at the dealership (not sure if I can name dealerships in this forums) with our equipment and we were ready to load the boat up. I wish I had taken pictures of this, but the port rear locker took the following items:

1 Kneeboard
2 Wakeboards with bindings (one high wrap binding pair)
1 Coleman cooler - I think it is a 18qt cooler. I would have to check.

The starboard locker:
1 wakeboard (high wrap binding)
9 neoprene lifevests
2 wakeboard rope/handles

I put the 4th wakeboard in the walk through area since I did not want to reorganize the lockers. Our bag of towels and backpack of dry clothes disappeared behind the observer's chair.

On the way to Big Break and followed the boat and was looking to see if the tower rattled going down the freeway. The boat and tower moved as one unit. From my point of view, it was solid.

Once we got to Big Break the boat was launched and we were on our way. The water temp was a chilly 60 degress and there was chop all around us. This boat rode over the chop effortless. As soon as we were out of the marina we stopped and I loaded up the scissor racks with 3 boards to see if the tower squeaked or rattled and if my vision was blocked. The tower didn't make any noise and my vision was not obstructed at all. After removing the boards from the lockers, those things were cavernous. The storage on this boat is simply phenomenal.

As we drove the boat, it handled very nicely without ballast. We filled the ballast (very easy and quick ~ 1 min) and drove around as well and it still handled well. It took some effort to get on plane with full ballast, but the boat did it with some more throttle. The boat was filled with 3 adults and 2 children and 1800lbs of ballast.

Setting up the boat for surfing was just as easy. Opened a gate, closed another, drove for about a minute on plane, and the boat was ready.

We played with the cruise control. It was easy to setup. Press On, set speed, apply throttle until beep, and drive. I do not think it can save multiple profiles, but that isn't going to be a negative factor for me in my boat buying.

I played with the bimini top while the boat was at the dealership. That thing is massive. I can see it being a nice thing to have during our warm summer months in the delta.

A big thing to point out is that this beastly sized boat fits in my garage. My garage opening is 82 15/16". Tract homes are not known for adhering to tolerances. The trick to get the boat in the garage was to lay the tower inside the engine bay with the power hatch up. Then set the hatch back down on the tower.

Overall, the F21 impressed me quite a bit. Granted I own an 18' runabout now that is in a different class than the F21.

I have not driven the V215, but with those hard tanks where they are, I am not so sure that storage in the V215 would compare to the F21.

I'll have some videos up tonight if possible from our demo ride.

Mario-
Old    Adam Fullmer (adam4x4)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-22-2010, 1:13 PM Reply   
Here's some pics of the Sanger. i had to use my i-phone because my camera had a bad day and did not want to work.

Boat

no ballest

all ballest

surf only right rear tank filled
Attached Images
    

Last edited by adam4x4; 03-22-2010 at 1:16 PM.
Old    Adam Fullmer (adam4x4)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-22-2010, 1:41 PM Reply   
MB F21

Boat

no Ballest

full Ballest

right surf
Attached Images
     
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       03-22-2010, 1:54 PM Reply   
Whats the difference in dollars?
Old    Adam Fullmer (adam4x4)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-22-2010, 2:24 PM Reply   
Almost the same, with in $500
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       03-22-2010, 2:59 PM Reply   
Great reviews
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-22-2010, 3:04 PM Reply   
The 21' MBs are really hard to beat, even if you take price out of the equation.
Old    SamIngram            03-22-2010, 3:54 PM Reply   
You can't beat the Sanger when it comes to a warranty issue. Mike and Kathy Davidson will back their product every time. The other company has a history of not doing so...
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-22-2010, 4:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
You can't beat the Sanger when it comes to a warranty issue. Mike and Kathy Davidson will back their product every time. The other company has a history of not doing so...
Can you please provide some examples? I would like to know so I have more "data points". This is something that is good to have some insight on before I make my purchase.

Thx.


P.S. Vids to follow soon.
Old    Jeff (jumpman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-22-2010, 5:04 PM Reply   
Sam,
Very interesting. I have not had that experience at all. Any warranty issues (very few) that I have had has been covered & covered quickly. Usually with the only question being what can we do better.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-22-2010, 5:27 PM Reply   
I was an MB Dealer in the Mid-Atlantic. MB always provided expedited and complete coverage for every warranty issue we ever came up against, which were few and far between. They also paid the dealer $105/hr for labor involved, if I remember correctly.

There was one major warranty issue that I heard of over the years. Not sure what happened or why, but I do know it was much older boat, mid 90's? But i do know that the customer's brand new (2008) replacement boat was delivered to my dealership for the customer to pick up, he was a happy camper.
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-22-2010, 10:48 PM Reply   
Here are the videos from my F21 demo ride:

1800 lbs of ballast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0Fq38hCbk8

Standard foot - wake surf (if that is what it is called)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdM9W37r-Zg

Goofy foot -wake surf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXjkJywx-co

Bow rise - camera is being held at the lip of the windshield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I1pcgc-m14

F21 Walk around:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8mZEtHPCWU
Old    Jeff (jumpman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-26-2010, 7:26 AM Reply   
Wow! What a great review. Have you picked it up yet?
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-28-2010, 8:04 PM Reply   
I will start a new thread of my newly acquired F21 Tomcat. I do not want to jack this comparison thread.

Mario-

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