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Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-15-2010, 4:04 PM Reply   
I went to home depot today looking for these valves to set up my SAN with instead of the cable actuated valves I have now. I did find the 57100 orbit valve but was curious as to if they work ok. Meaning they are made to work on 24V AC and not 12V DC. If they do work, is there enough current to hold it open or is it really weak? This is a general question because all the sprinkler valves are the same 24V ac setup that I saw.

If anybody has any feedback, I am really interested. I would like my setup to be all pushbutton and no cable turning when I am done. I am keeping the aerators and no ballast puppies, so that is not an option at this time.
Old    A.J. West (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       03-15-2010, 5:28 PM Reply   
That's the same valve alot of Supra and Moomba owners are using to replace the factory Orbit valves. Shouldn't be a problem. Should go online and get the Irritrol 700 3/4" valve...it flows alot more water due to the straight through flow design and not "up and over" design like the Orbit.
Old    Aaron Ware (99_slaunch)      Join Date: Oct 2005       03-15-2010, 5:32 PM Reply   
Check this link and there is another link inside it.

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=777471
Old    Jason@WakeMAKERS (jasonwm)      Join Date: Mar 2009       03-15-2010, 9:54 PM Reply   
If you do go the sprinkler valve route you'll definitely want to go with the Irritrol valve, otherwise you're going to reduce the flow through your system by close to 50%.

Personally I would ditch the valves all together and go with a passive system that doesn't require anything to prevent the flow of water into or out of the bags. It will be a little more work, but is well worth it IMHO.
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-15-2010, 10:46 PM Reply   
I know about the irritrol valves and I plan on seeing if I can find them locally. It was a general question looking to see if I can actually use these valves on 12Vdc when they are rated for 24Vac and be reliable to use every day. Not so much needing info on valves, but confirmation that they will work even though it isnt rated for what they are being used for a power source.

Jason, I dont understand what you mean by a passive system. I want to be able to lock out water for skiing, so I need the valves for aerator pumps, and I dont want the expence of ballast puppies as of yet. I am not aware of any other way out there. I am definately up for some enlightenment though, if you will please explain what you mean.
Old    walker44            03-16-2010, 1:05 AM Reply   
Check out PlanetNautique.com. A few guys have done this conversion on there and they were very happy with it. I dont think the 24V will be a issue, but i'm not educated on how that works. Reduced flow was the only complaint I have heard of.
Old    A.J. West (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       03-16-2010, 7:17 AM Reply   
Jason is probably referring to the use of the Tsunami pumps and vented loops. It is more work but the fill rates are really good. I just dont want extra lines everywhere.
Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-16-2010, 7:30 AM Reply   
You can do a system without sprinkler valves. My Epic didn't have them and my custom systems in my Malibus didn't need them. It's all in how you plumb it.

Sprinkler valves will just slow the flow significantly and, frankly, I just don't see how they can work effectively. Sprinkler valves are a diaphragm valve that creates a seal with water pressure. In a sprinkler system, there's always water pressure, but in a ballast system.... So, it's gonna leak anyway.

They do make electric ball valves, but they're $$$$$.
Old    Cory McLean (kikitlo)      Join Date: Jul 2005       03-16-2010, 8:59 AM Reply   
As far as the 24V it will not be an issue. The valves will work as low as 9V.

I had the obrbit valves on my last boat in combination with some aerator pumps. If you can go without the valves I would recommend it. The valves that I had needed to have a good amount of pressure behind it for it to work well from what I found. Perhaps it may have been the way I had them plumbed. I actually had to be driving to get the ballast to fill. As stated above, Malibu actually uses aerator pumps without check valves and it works well. Might as well go the route that will offer less resistance which will make your fill time less.
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-17-2010, 7:42 AM Reply   
I need to have some way to stop the flow of water when I want to ski. How do I do that without some type of valve?
Old    CORY MITCHELL (stang_killa_ss)      Join Date: Jan 2010       03-17-2010, 8:05 AM Reply   
I JUST ordered the orbit 57100 on friday to replace all three in my 03 moomba.
ill let ya know how it goes.
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-17-2010, 8:13 AM Reply   
Sweet, I appreciate the input when you get it.
Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-17-2010, 8:32 AM Reply   
Don, how do you get water: Scoop or just a hole in the bottom of the hull? Are your aerator pumps currently screwed directly to the thru hull fitting?
Old    walker44            03-17-2010, 10:16 AM Reply   
Don,

Sorry if I missed it, but what year SAN do you have? You will need valves as long as you have aerators pumps. Are you dumping the cables because they donít stop the flow? I had this issue and discovered Nautique recalled the "flo-wrong" valves and will send you replacements for free. You will still need to use the cables with the replacements.

If youíre doing the swap because you donít want to mess with the cables, your only option (without changing to impeller pumps) is solenoid valves "sprinkler valves". I know you donít care about fill time, but I recommend taking the extra time and money to buy the right valve for the job. Two of the valves are located near the engine and you should install explosion proof valves. The change out will cost about $300 for 3 valves. Each one should wire directly to the pump it serves.

I looked into it, but decided it wasnít a big deal to turn the cables now and then.

http://planetnautique.com/vb3/showth...prinkler+valve
Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-17-2010, 11:32 AM Reply   
Unless you're picking up water with a scooped thru hull, there's no need for valves.

The dirty secret is that you need to vent your fill hose. Just go from thru hull to pump to a loop that's higher than your bag and lower than a side thru hull. Tap off at the top of the loop and connect that to a side thru hull. Voila! Can't auto siphon back, 'cuz you can't suck thru a straw with a hole in it, and it won't self-fill because the static pressure difference between the hulls thru hull and the vent line is significantly lower than your loop height.

Simple physics. Been there, done that, works great every time.
Old    walker44            03-17-2010, 11:53 AM Reply   
Here is the valve I would use:

Model # EF8210g95
Normally Closed (energize to open)
3/4" (Your current system should be 3/4 line)
Pressure (Min-Max): 0-40 PSI (You need a low pressure 0 PSI valve or it will not open)
Flow Rate (Min-Max): 0-31 GPM (Ok flow rate)
Coil Rating: 12 VDC, 11.6 watts (12DC works with your system)
The EF is explosion proof (I think it would be ok to use the non EF for the center tank)

You can also get them on ebay for about $100. Not cheap, but they should work well

http://www.valvestore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=42127

http://valvesandinstruments.com/sole...closed-10.html
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       03-17-2010, 11:58 AM Reply   
tuneman, does the vented loop work with scoops as well? What keeps you from pumping water out the vented thru-hull? just trying to get an understanding of it...

Found these 1" valves on amazon. Actually cheaper than the 3/4.
http://www.amazon.com/Orbit-Sprinkle.../dp/B0007WJI4A
Old    walker44            03-17-2010, 12:09 PM Reply   
I have a 03 and it has a scoop. I think you need the scoop with aerators because sometimes they need to be primed (give it a little gas to get them to start pumping)

Tuneman, I'm tring to visualize your install and I dont know if it will work on the SAN even without a scoop. It would be tricky finding a spot for installing the loop higher than the bag / tank yet lower than the side thru hull vent line. I also dont understand why you would tap the vent off the loop and not let it just vent from the tank. I see how your loop will stop back drainage, but it wont stop the bags from always filling.

Do you use one of theses?

http://www.shipstore.com/SS/HTML/FOR/FOR903008.html

Last edited by walker44; 03-17-2010 at 12:18 PM.
Old    Jason@WakeMAKERS (jasonwm)      Join Date: Mar 2009       03-17-2010, 1:15 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by trdon View Post
Jason, I dont understand what you mean by a passive system. I want to be able to lock out water for skiing, so I need the valves for aerator pumps, and I dont want the expence of ballast puppies as of yet. I am not aware of any other way out there. I am definately up for some enlightenment though, if you will please explain what you mean.
There are lots of ways to skin a cat, but it is relatively easy to design and install a system using aerator pumps that will not fill when running at speed. This type of system requires to main components:

- A non-scooping thru-hull intake. This will eliminate positive pressure in the system when the boat is running at speed, so water won't be forced into the bags by the boat moving through the water.
- Venting the fill line for each bag. This can be done by installing a vented loop fitting between the fill pump and the bag, or you could come up with a creative DIY method (I'm not sure tuneman's description will work though). Either application will break the continuous column of water running from the intake to the bag, which will break the siphon effect that occurs and can transfer water into our out of the bag.

Think about siphoning gas out of a gas tank, if you can create a solid column of gas from the gas tank to the end of the hose the siphon won't run. This is the same scenario, and a vented loop will do that without additional hose or thru-hull connections. Both will work equally well though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trdon View Post
I need to have some way to stop the flow of water when I want to ski. How do I do that without some type of valve?
Not necessarily, it depends on the design of the system. Unfortunately many manufacturers didn't spend the time to figure out how to design a system correctly with aerator pumps, and instead of figuring it out they just switched to impeller pumps like the Jabsco. It was easier for them, but is more expensive for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuneman View Post
Don, how do you get water: Scoop or just a hole in the bottom of the hull? Are your aerator pumps currently screwed directly to the thru hull fitting?
Nautique used scupper intakes in 2003, so he'll need to replace that with a mushroom fitting if he wants to ditch the valves. The fill pumps are not directly on the thru-hull, but they're below the waterline, so they'll prime just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by walker44 View Post
Don,

Sorry if I missed it, but what year SAN do you have? You will need valves as long as you have aerators pumps. Are you dumping the cables because they donít stop the flow? I had this issue and discovered Nautique recalled the "flo-wrong" valves and will send you replacements for free. You will still need to use the cables with the replacements.

If youíre doing the swap because you donít want to mess with the cables, your only option (without changing to impeller pumps) is solenoid valves "sprinkler valves". I know you donít care about fill time, but I recommend taking the extra time and money to buy the right valve for the job. Two of the valves are located near the engine and you should install explosion proof valves. The change out will cost about $300 for 3 valves. Each one should wire directly to the pump it serves.

I looked into it, but decided it wasnít a big deal to turn the cables now and then.

http://planetnautique.com/vb3/showth...prinkler+valve
It's perfectly feasible to design an aerator based system that doesn't use any type of valve (Malibu's systems from the factory fall into this category). It takes more knowledge, and there are some caveats to be aware of, but stating that it's not possible isn't true. Now, whether or not it's worth it to go through the hassle when you have an existing system is a personal decision. Half our customers choose to stick with what they have, the other half end up upgrading everything.

All of the prepackaged based ballast systems we sell use aerator pumps (they're cheaper, more durable, more compact, and draw less current), and they function perfectly well without any type of valve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuneman View Post
Unless you're picking up water with a scooped thru hull, there's no need for valves.

The dirty secret is that you need to vent your fill hose. Just go from thru hull to pump to a loop that's higher than your bag and lower than a side thru hull. Tap off at the top of the loop and connect that to a side thru hull. Voila! Can't auto siphon back, 'cuz you can't suck thru a straw with a hole in it, and it won't self-fill because the static pressure difference between the hulls thru hull and the vent line is significantly lower than your loop height.

Simple physics. Been there, done that, works great every time.
How does that work when you purposely try to fill the system? Won't the fill send half of its flow out the vent connection? A commercial vented loop prevents that from happening by using a valve at the top that won't let water pass through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverd1 View Post
tuneman, does the vented loop work with scoops as well? What keeps you from pumping water out the vented thru-hull? just trying to get an understanding of it...

http://www.amazon.com/Orbit-Sprinkle.../dp/B0007WJI4A
No, a vented loop (either home made as described above or a commercial fitting) will not work with a scoop intake. That type of intake creates too much passive pressure, and will force the column of air created by the vent fitting into the bag and then you have the same problem all over again.

I'm not sure how tuneman's setup works either for the same reason. Better to just use a commercial fitting and be done with it (but I sell them, so of course I'm going to think that way). As an added benefit that doesn't require any additional thru-hull connections either, so the install will be easier and a lot cleaner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by walker44 View Post
I have a 03 and it has a scoop. I think you need the scoop with aerators because sometimes they need to be primed (give it a little gas to get them to start pumping)
You don't need a scupper intake if the fill pumps are positioned below the waterline. In fact, you really should never use a scooping intake for any type of ballast system, it only creates more problems.

[QUOTE=walker44;1562883]
Tuneman, I'm tring to visualize your install and I dont know if it will work on the SAN even without a scoop. It would be tricky finding a spot for installing the loop higher than the bag / tank yet lower than the side thru hull vent line. I also dont understand why you would tap the vent off the loop and not let it just vent from the tank. I see how your loop will stop back drainage, but it wont stop the bags from always filling.
[quote]
With a vented loop (like the one you linked to), it doesn't need to be installed in any particular orientation to the thru-hull vent fitting, just higher than the bag. Typically our customers install them under the gunnel in the rear compartment on the bulkhead between the locker and the rear seat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by walker44 View Post
That is the vented loop you want to use, but is REALLY expensive. We sell the 3/4" version (which you would need for a 2003 Nautique) for $10 less.
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-17-2010, 5:23 PM Reply   
I am just looking to make it a total pushbutton system for me. I can turn the cables just fine but it would be easier to not to if I can design around it. I have the new TH valves but am debating puting them in. I would like to get around it but if I cant without spending an extraordinary amount of money, I will just roll with the cables ro ball valves like I have been doing.

Why would I have to go with an explosionproof setup for 100 a valve when factory systems are using sprinkler valves for 1/10th that?
Old    Jason@WakeMAKERS (jasonwm)      Join Date: Mar 2009       03-17-2010, 5:29 PM Reply   
You have two options to make it push button:

1) Install some type of electronic valve system for each bag (these could be Orbit or Irritrol sprinkler valves, or quarter turn solenoid valves).

2) Replace the thru-hull intake and install vented loops.

Which route you choose to go will depend on how fast you want the system to be, how much you want to spend, and how much work you want to do to install everything.
Old    Dave Gast (nautiquesonly)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-17-2010, 7:03 PM Reply   
Jason,
I have an 07 236 that I am looking for a way to keep my tanks from siphing out. I have the ballast puppies but my tanks won't stay full without closing the thru hull which in this boat is a pain. Any suggestions there?
Old    Jason@WakeMAKERS (jasonwm)      Join Date: Mar 2009       03-17-2010, 7:09 PM Reply   
Yeah, that's a known problem. You need to upgrade the yellow impellers in your pumps to the new green NItrile impellers which will fix it.
Old    walker44            03-18-2010, 11:47 AM Reply   
"Why would I have to go with an explosionproof setup for 100 a valve when factory systems are using sprinkler valves for 1/10th that? "

You could go with whatever you want, it's your boat. The two rear valves are located under the engine. That’s a great place for fumes to build and ignite. Maybe I'm wrong and you may never have a problem, but my 30K Nautique and safety would be worth the extra few hundred.

What factory brand is using sprinkler valves with their ballast system? Like I said, I was in your position and I felt it was not worth 300-400 upgrade to do it correctly. From what I have read, I think you will find the sprinkler valves will be more hassle than the cables in the long run.

You’re obviously set on going with the sprinkler valves. Why don’t you just install the sprinkler valve on you center tank to test it out. Its is a easy ten minute install and wont cost much. You can see how it works and even compare fill times with the rear pumps. If it oesnt work change the sprinkler valve or re-install the TH valve.

Also check to see if you have room for the large sprinkler valve. There is not much room to play with around the rear valves.

Last edited by walker44; 03-18-2010 at 11:53 AM.
Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-19-2010, 6:52 AM Reply   
I guess I gotta read this thread more often. Both systems I built used a regular tee at the top of the loop. Gotta think about gravity here. The water is gonna flow down, not up to the thru hull. I never had an issue with the water going the wrong way. It only goes out the vent when the bag is full. Malibu actually does it this way.

But, with that said, the vented loop would be better. And, you don't "need" the preformed loops. Just 't' off and put in a flapper check valve for the same effect.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       03-19-2010, 8:54 AM Reply   
tuneman,

the vented loop sounds like it would work. Still not sure if you are talking about scoop or mushroom systems!

If I add a loop to my scoop intake system, it sounds like water would constantly flow thru the vented loop and out the TH once the bag is full.. right?
Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-19-2010, 10:47 AM Reply   
Yeah, like Jason said earlier, scoop intakes won't work. The water pressure would be too great and your bags would fill all of the time. Apparently, that must be why Nautique added valves. You'll have to swap out your scoops for mushrooms.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       03-19-2010, 12:49 PM Reply   
ok. thats what I thought.

going with valves.
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-20-2010, 9:37 PM Reply   
so I am going to guess I can eliminate any valves if I go with a flat or mushroom head on th ebottom and an anti siphon in a loop of my existing fill hoses. This sound about right?

I am definately not set on the valves. I am totally for eliminating them or getting rid of the whole cable thing all together. I had thought about the swap on the center tank and seeing how that goes. I am all for more ideas on how to get around it if I can. One more part can lead to one more failure. I am just looking for the easiest and most convienent way to accomplish what everybody else is looking to do
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-20-2010, 10:22 PM Reply   
I havent looked at this but is there a way I can flip my scoop so it is facing backwards? I realize I would likely only be able to fill at a stand still but I really dont care, it is how I fill usually anyway. If not, does anybody know where I can get a mushroom head to install in place of my scoop (direct fit). The more I look into this vented loop idea, the more I like it.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       03-21-2010, 10:04 AM Reply   
I've heard of folks spinning the scoop to prevent pressure without any problem. A mushroom TH should be available from www.skidim.com
Old    Matt Foell (vr6mole)      Join Date: Feb 2009       03-22-2010, 5:02 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by trdon View Post
I havent looked at this but is there a way I can flip my scoop so it is facing backwards? I realize I would likely only be able to fill at a stand still but I really dont care, it is how I fill usually anyway. If not, does anybody know where I can get a mushroom head to install in place of my scoop (direct fit). The more I look into this vented loop idea, the more I like it.
Not sure what the big deal is. The stock scoop is 3/4.

Either buy a 3/4 mushroom or go with a 1 inch mushroom.

Enlarge the hole to 1 inch if you need to with a hole saw and a piece of wood for the pilot bit.

Make sure you fill in the 2 small holes left by the scoop type.
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-22-2010, 7:28 PM Reply   
I guess I dont get what you mean. I didnt make any deal about anything. I can cut holes in my boat, I really dont care like a lot do on here. I guess I just want to make it easy as possible and want a direct replacement.
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-24-2010, 5:38 AM Reply   
You can always just grind off the scoope part of your intake. Alot of supra guys have done this. I dont think anybody posted this link.

http://www.supraboats.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=4595
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-26-2010, 8:44 PM Reply   
I see that thread and the first thing I say is there needs to be a strainer there, why cut off the strainer part, but then I realize that if I put a mushroom there, they dont have a strainer on the end of those, do they? Other than that it seems like a great way to do it.

In speaking with others about this situation, is there any reason why a person cant just put a one way check valve from the pump to the bag instead of a anti siphon valve loop like others have said? It would be a lot cheaper and would keep the water from getting siphoned out, am I right? If the main inlet pump is lower than the discharge pump (which in my case it would be) and a vented host to the bag, it should not be powerful enough to pull water past the fill pump when draining I wouldnt think. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-28-2010, 3:13 PM Reply   
Bump for hope of an answer
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-29-2010, 5:29 AM Reply   
I'm pretty sure the vented loop is more for auto fill while the boat is in motion. I think even with a mushroom intake you
will still get a little presure trying to fill the bags. For a cheap loop you can always just go to lowes and make you own
out of some PVC pipe.
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-29-2010, 2:33 PM Reply   
How does one go about making one of those. Where do you get the valve for the top of the loop?
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-30-2010, 5:43 AM Reply   
Well, before wakemakers started sell their vented loop people just took some flexable tubing and looped it higher than their sac's, then ran the tube back down to fill the sac. I would get two sections of 1" pvc pipe about a foot long and mount them mabe 8" apart high in your boat (mabe in front of your engine behind your back seat, thats where I mount my valves in my old super sport I made a panel to fit) . Next use the grey barbed fittings to attach a flexable piece of 1" tubing to the top of you two pieces of pvc pipe. Now you will have your own loop to attach your fill lines to. I think the valve at the top of wakemakers loop is more of a air perge valve not a check valve. But you could try this for a like ten dollars worth of stuff and if it dosen't work then buy wakemakers loop.
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-30-2010, 3:02 PM Reply   
so is there anything wrong with a check valve mounted higher than the sack? I have all the parts to make this happen right now. I was just looking for confirmation if I can or cannot run it successfully this way.
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-31-2010, 5:35 AM Reply   
If you put a check valve higher than the sac it will keep it from running out of the sac but it won't keep it from auto filling. If it was me just install your line as high as you can with out the check valve and you should be good to go. You can always go back and cut your line and put in a check valve later if you really need it.
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-31-2010, 2:47 PM Reply   
That sounds good. I will be cutting off the scooper part of my intake under the boat. I think that will be doing me about as much good as doing a mushroom through hull. It should cut down on pressurized filling.
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-31-2010, 6:37 PM Reply   
Well, I just got that done. Kept it on the boat and did it with a metal cutting dremel. Now just have to sand it down to perfectly flat more for asthetics than anything. It was easier than I thought it would be and I didnt even nick the gelcoat.
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       04-01-2010, 5:22 AM Reply   
Nice
Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       04-01-2010, 6:52 AM Reply   
TRDon, you'll need the check valves. I tried to get away with it, but the water would always want to siphon back. You'll also need to vent the bag on top. And, you don't really need a "loop". You just have to have some point or length in the fill line that is above the bag.

I can get you the Fly High check valves for $26 each, minus the Don discount, or you can go to the hardware store and get PVC swing or brass swing check valves for around $15 each. Make sure you get the flapper/swing style and not the spring plunger style.

Oh, and don't worry about a strainer on the end of the thru hull. Not needed. I've only had one instance, in thousands of fills, where I got a weed stuck in the inlet and had to swim under the boat to manually unplug it.
Old    TRDon (trdon)      Join Date: Sep 2007       04-01-2010, 4:15 PM Reply   
I was at menards and they did have rubber flapper valves in a 1 1/4 size that I bought (smallest they had). I bought adapters to size them down to the 1" hose. I am debating buying the atwood 800s just to get some new ones in there and maybe be a little faster than my 7 year old ones. I need to get a little more hose and see where I can go from there, I shouls be ready to get this set up early next week. Expect to be on the water next week Chad I will keep all posted on the progress.

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