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Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-23-2009, 11:48 AM Reply   
I agree that Florida had a light schedule this year (If you scroll all the way to the top I said that at the beggining of the season), but they are a good team and have won every game (unlike USC who is always praised even though they rarely play a super tough schedule and in fact have to schedule decent ranked opponents outside the PAC10). The SEC teams are the teams that typically play like 5 to 7 ranked teams (even with creampuffs on their schedule) every season because the conference is so tough.

BTW Strib, I disagree on LSU having an appropriate ranking they are easily a top 10 team seeing as how their previous losses were to #1 Florida & #2 Alabama in close games.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-23-2009, 11:52 AM Reply   
BTW Brett, What one good team (IYO) did Florida play all year? I count at least 5 good teams all ranked at one point in the season.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       11-23-2009, 12:17 PM Reply   
The only good team that they have played is LSU. In my opinion their opponents rating when they play them doesn't show how good their opponent is compared to their ranking at the end of the season. As usual a bunch of SEC schools got hyped up and over ranked at the beginning of the season. Look at them now, mediocre teams at best. This is why rankings have no business coming out before week 5 or 6. Tennessee is garbage. One of the worst teams in the PAC10 beat them at Tennessee. Another team that is over ranked every year in Georgia turns out to be a mediocre at best team. They barely beat another lower level PAC10 team at home and have pretty much lost every game they have played against a solid to good opponent. Arkansas hasn't beat anybody that good. Auburn started out good but only played one good team in WVU and since their 5-0 start have only beat one pretty good team in Ole Miss. Ole Miss was another way overrated team at the beginning of the year. They haven't beat a good team other than LSU at home. The Game Cocks are an ok but inconsistent team.

What in the hell are you talking about when you mention USC not playing a tough schedule? Every year they play every team in the PAC10 which is the second best conference. They schedule one patsie every year and then play 2 or 3 big time conference opponents. They play Notre Dame every year, I know they have been down but is still a different level of opponent than FIU, they have played tOSU the last 2 years and they usually play an SEC, Big 12 or Big 10 team every year.

Now after all that I do think that the SEC is probably the best conference but the PAC10 is right behind them year in and year out. We all know that the Big10 is garbage, the Big 12 is decent, the ACC is worse than garbage and the Big East has some pretty decent teams but are new to success.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-23-2009, 1:22 PM Reply   
I agree that preseaon polls should be done away with and I agree pollsters are a little overzealous in casting the usual suspects in high ranked positions.

However just because someone is ranked to high to start doesn't make them a mediocre team. Tennesee is not garbage, they lost to Alabama by 2 points and have been in the hunt in every game except Ole Miss. UCLA is the worst? Every team they lost to was ranked at one point in the season. Quit being over dramatic to try and make a point. All of those teams you mentioned are going to surprise people when bowl time comes and they actually have to play somebody outside their conference. The polls have it tough because their are so many decent teams that are in the mix every week.

USC had a tough scedule this year because the PAC10 was spread out with talent like the SEC generally is every year.... but that is my point they naturally assume that certain teams are going to be tough every year so they give them the benefit of the doubt. (ie. OSU & USC are always given a high ranking preseason also)

The other thing to factor is tough schedules cause injuries which wears a team down. ie. LSU has lost 2 of their star runningbacks and QB1 is playing hurt as well as other key position injuries or Ole Miss wouldn't have been in the hunt to win that last game.

BTW teams sign contracts with teams to play them for a certain number of years for a certain compensation. This is why many of the creampuffs are scheduled. LSU had a ten year contract with Texas A&M back in the 90's ....

So USC probably has a contract with Notre Dame and many of those creampuff in the SEC schedules... ect... Some years good some years bad. Notre Dame sucked this year ... oh well didn't help USC at all.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       11-23-2009, 2:04 PM Reply   
USC is always going to play Notre Dame because it is one of the longest standing OOC rivalries in the nation. The PAC10 continues to schedule teams from the BCS conferences in OOC while SEC teams schedule the Sisters of the Poor. The only way you can compare a conference to another conference is by their OOC schedule(strength of opponent and win/loss record) and by bowl win/loss record. The PAC10 is right there with the SEC while playing tougher OOC opponents yet the SEC consistently gets overrated because they are the SEC and the PAC10 gets overlooked because we are on the other side of the country.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       11-23-2009, 2:10 PM Reply   
Gene, Notre Dame>FIU, Chattanooga and whatever other sub division team Florida played. You can't totally be sure of playing a good team OOC because you schedule 5 years ahead of time but by scheduling BCS teams there is at least a good chance of playing a good decent team compared to scheduling sub division teams where you know it will be a walk in the park no matter what.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-23-2009, 2:49 PM Reply   
PAC10 gets overlooked because they are on the other side of the country???? WTF? ha ha ha ha come on man... get real USC get more media attention than any team in the frickin country!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       11-23-2009, 3:38 PM Reply   
USC isn't a conference. It is a school. There are other teams in the conference that get no love. Oregon gets some because they are Nike U. Like Florida, USC gets a ton of attention because between the 2 have dominated this decade in football. The pac10 as a whole gets overlooked while the SEC as a whole gets overrated. I guess the PAC10 will get overlooked in the ratings then go into the bowls and beat the crap out of everybody like they usually do.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-23-2009, 9:01 PM Reply   
mmm hmmmm ....
Old    Strib (baldboarder)      Join Date: Aug 2002       11-23-2009, 10:13 PM Reply   
Florida should be in the Sunbelt Conference. They play almost half the teams in that Conference anyway.
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       11-24-2009, 12:23 AM Reply   
I have to agree with Brett here. The Pac Ten went 5-0 in Bowl Games last year. That's hard to argue with.

Strib - Lol, that really is pathetic. Proud to say that I'm an Arkansas fan, where we have one of the top 5 toughest schedules in College Football.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-24-2009, 5:24 AM Reply   
uhhh yeah and the SEC went 6-2 in bowl games last year having more teams in bowl games as well as the most wins. I admit that the PAC10 has done better than they usually do in recent years but I find this statement misguided, ultra biased, and really kinda stupid:

"I guess the PAC10 will get overlooked in the ratings then go into the bowls and beat the crap out of everybody like they usually do."

Overlooked in the ratings? Do you have any argument at all to back this up? PAC10 has 4 top 25 teams just like the SEC has 4 top 25 teams. In fact the PAC10 is always given preference in the strength of schedule catagory which gives them a better chance of climbing the polls! I can see it is a pointless effort to argue with someone sporting their conference goggles.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-24-2009, 5:34 AM Reply   
Oh and BTW the previous year: 2007

7-2 most teams , most wins , most teams in top 25

year before that: 2006

6-3 most teams , most wins, most teams in top 25

Do you see a pattern here? The PAC10 BTW has not had more teams or more wins than the SEC in the last DECADE! Probably more but I am to lazy to look it up.

In fact the SEC has the most bowls all time, most wins by far, and the best winning percentage. ;)

Bowls Wins Losses Ties Win %
SEC 348 190 149 9 .559
Pac-10 193 103 88 2 .539
Big Ten 209 97 111 1 .467
ACC 166 81 83 2 .494
Southwest 151 63 80 8 .444
Big 12 92 45 47 0 .489
Big East 76 42 34 0 .553
WAC 101 42 58 1 .421




(Message edited by gene3x on November 24, 2009)
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-24-2009, 6:02 AM Reply   
This may be a little easier to read:

Bowls Wins Losses Ties Win%

348 190 149 9 .559 ---------- SEC
268 141 122 5 .536 ---------- ACC
193 103 88 2 .539 ----------Pac-10
209 97 111 1 .467 ---------Big Ten
166 81 83 2 .494 --------------ACC
151 63 80 8 .444 --------Southwest
92 45 47 0 .489 -----------Big 12
76 42 34 0 .553 ----------Big East
101 42 58 1 .421 --------------WAC

* this list is a few years old BTW the ACC had the best win percentage before

(Message edited by gene3x on November 24, 2009)
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-24-2009, 6:15 AM Reply   
When you look at the final bowl tallies over the last 10 years (including BCS games)...

SEC: 44-30 (59.4%)
Big12: 33-32 (50.7%)
PAC10: 20-20 (50%)
BigEast: 19-18 (51.4%)
ACC: 24-28 (46.1%)
Big10: 28-38 (42.4%)

... then just the BCS records...

SEC: 11-4 (73.3%), 4 BCS Titles
PAC10: 8-4 (66.7%), 1 BCS Title
BigEast: 6-4 (60%), 1 BCS Title
Big10: 8-8 (50%), 1 BCS Title
Big12: 6-8 (42.9%), 2 BCS Titles
ACC: 1-9 (10%), 1 BCS Title
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       11-24-2009, 8:27 AM Reply   
Gene, is that first table with current ACC teams or teams that were actually in the ACC when they played in the bowl games?
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-24-2009, 8:47 AM Reply   
I believe it may be a bit skewed to include both.... not 100% sure. I know that it has the current teams record since they have been in the ACC.

The only team that is gone is South Carolina which is now in the SEC ... ;)
Old    Mellow Man (mellowman)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-24-2009, 9:03 AM Reply   
Gene I would be interested to see the record of the 2nd best team in the SEC's bowl record. I know I have seen them at least a few years get there doors blow off by the 2nd or 3rd best team in the Big Ten.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-24-2009, 10:22 AM Reply   
Not sure about that I can look it up but i do know that in all bowl games since the 1940's in major conference play with more than 30 bowl appearances that Penn State kicks everyone's ass with a winning percentage of like .692
Next would be Ole Miss with a .645
and then the Sooners with a .628

Highest in the PAC10 is USC with .579
4 SEC teams are better all time including my LSU Tigers with a .587
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       11-24-2009, 11:00 AM Reply   
Gene, I see you will be among the next set of fans that get to watch my Arkansas Razorbacks go in and put on a flawless display of passing and running excellence and execution.

I don't need to say anything more about Ryan Mallet, his numbers speak for himself. However, let me introduce you to Dennis Johnson. He's a bad, bad man, and he feasts on SEC Defenses.

Upload
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-24-2009, 11:37 AM Reply   
I have to admit that I am worried about the Hogs after seeing them take Florida to the wire and after all the starters that LSU has lost. We are down to a fourth string running back and the speedster Trindon Holiday standing at an intimidating 5 foot 4 ..... lol

Upload
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       11-24-2009, 11:45 AM Reply   
That really did make me laugh, haha. He looks so helpless!

It'll be a good game though, when LSU and Arkansas play, you never can put rankings or numbers into the equation.
Old    Eric (mjfan23)      Join Date: Nov 2003       11-24-2009, 11:59 AM Reply   
John Brantley is better than mallet
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       11-24-2009, 12:25 PM Reply   
Exactly. Which is why John Brantley leads the SEC in passing touchdowns, passing yards, yards per game, has 12 school records in just 11 starts, and has been named SEC Offensive player of the week twice in the past 3 weeks. All while playing one of the top 5 toughest schedules (#3 last time I checked) in Division 1 college football.

Oh, wait. That's Ryan Mallet.

John Brantley couldn't beat our Tebow for the Starting job. Tebow also has 14 passing and 11 rushing touchdowns. Three less than mallet has with his arm alone. Ryan Mallet also has a higher QB Rating than Tebow, more yards per game, and more yards per attempt.



(Message edited by dlwsrider on November 24, 2009)
Old    Eric (mjfan23)      Join Date: Nov 2003       11-24-2009, 12:42 PM Reply   
Ya how they doing in the SEC? Dont great Qb's win games?


John Brantley is Florida's backup.

Tell ya what, when Mallet has a winning SEC record, and completes over 60% of his passes come talk.
Old    Eric (mjfan23)      Join Date: Nov 2003       11-24-2009, 12:46 PM Reply   
Haha ya Brantley didnt beat out a former Heisman winner who put up numbers better than your beloved Mallet.
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       11-24-2009, 12:58 PM Reply   
"Tell ya what, when Mallet has a winning SEC record, and completes over 60% of his passes come talk."

When John Brantley STARTS, come talk. 46 passes attempted all year and you're trying to say he's better than the only QB to get 2 time SEC player of the week this year?
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-24-2009, 1:23 PM Reply   
Arkansas is #26 in the nation as far as toughest schedule according to the Sagarin ratings, which are generally recognized as the most accurate.

Florida # 51 toughest schedule

LSU #22 toughest schedule

I don't always agree but that is what the "experts" are saying.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-24-2009, 3:51 PM Reply   
This is another interesting way of look at the bigger picture in more detail.....

application/mswordUpload
AllTime Conference winning percentages.doc (74.2 k)
Old    Strib (baldboarder)      Join Date: Aug 2002       11-24-2009, 7:18 PM Reply   
My comments were not nearly as pathetic as Florida and Texas' non-conference schedule.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-30-2009, 4:04 PM Reply   
Everyone complains about the SEC teams not playing decent out of conference schedules but when they play top ranked teams out of conference they tend to win....

Georgia 30
(#7) Georgia Tech 24

South Carolina 34
(#15) Clemson 17

Georgia and Tennessee are the only two SEC teams than lost an out of conference game this whole season

(Message edited by gene3x on November 30, 2009)
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       11-30-2009, 4:08 PM Reply   
The fact that more SEC teams are not ranked is an abomination.

My SEC prediction on bowl games:

More teams than any other conference by a landslide
9 or 10

More wins than any other conference.
7 or 8
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       11-30-2009, 4:40 PM Reply   
And our kicker blows another one

F*&^ing Tejada
Old    Strib (baldboarder)      Join Date: Aug 2002       11-30-2009, 8:55 PM Reply   
Most people like me are only complaining about Florida; not Alabama, Tennessee, South Carolina, LSU, and most of the rest of the Conference. I have also complained about Texas' schedule. I don't even think Texas is the best college team in their own state. TCU has beaten three top 25 teams. Texas has beaten only one.
Old    E.J. (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-23-2009, 5:09 AM Reply   
GO UTES!
Old    Tings (tings00)      Join Date: Aug 2005       12-23-2009, 7:11 AM Reply   
Great to see BYU a lowly non BCS school take down a team from the mighty PAC-10. But you know, just like Alabama last year, Oregon State didnt want to be there, right? GO Mountain West Conference and GO UTES tonight.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-23-2009, 9:34 AM Reply   
GO BEARS tonight
Old    JTW (sangerlover)      Join Date: Sep 2005       12-23-2009, 11:42 AM Reply   
CAL will prevail tonight
Old    Tings (tings00)      Join Date: Aug 2005       12-23-2009, 9:13 PM Reply   
I hope you guys didnt bet on the game. GO UTES and please bring down the BCS.

At least Paterno knows whats up: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4768822
Old    E.J. (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-23-2009, 9:30 PM Reply   
Tings, It is always best to be a gracious winner....

It had to be difficult to be playing without J. Best. I truly believe that.

That said...the win was very satisfying.

(Message edited by Deuce on December 23, 2009)
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       12-23-2009, 11:14 PM Reply   
Very satisfying. No beef with Cal, but the more that the Mountain west and all non big six teams win, the better.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-23-2009, 11:25 PM Reply   
Ya woud have been nice to have Best but the reality is our defense was the problem, just like the regular season... Good win guys
Old    Strib (baldboarder)      Join Date: Aug 2002       12-24-2009, 10:46 PM Reply   
I just looked at the schedule for Florida and Texas next year. Believe me, the really challenged themselves again in their non-conference schedules.
Texas plays at Rice, Wyoming, and Florida Atlantic. Florida plays Miami (OH), USF, Appalachian State, and at Florida State. At least Alabama plays one challenging game. They play a home and home series against Penn State over the next two years. Actually I shouldn't rip on Appalachian State because they are a very good I-AA team who beat Michigan in the Big House a couple of years ago. Wouldn't it be great if they went to the Swamp and won?

See www.fbsschedules.com for future schedules.

(Message edited by baldboarder on December 24, 2009)
Old    Strib (baldboarder)      Join Date: Aug 2002       12-24-2009, 11:31 PM Reply   
Correction: Texas also plays UCLA at home next year. That will be their most difficult non-conference game.
Old    E.J. (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-26-2009, 4:04 PM Reply   
Urban Meyer stepping down as University of Florida HFC....

???
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-26-2009, 4:05 PM Reply   
"I've ignored my health and my family"
Old    E.J. (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-26-2009, 4:15 PM Reply   
Yea, but that is about as generic a comment as there is. It describes about every big time college and pro coach in the country.....

Guess that doesn't mean it cannot be true. But it is just odd. Not to mention VERY unusual timing....
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-26-2009, 4:19 PM Reply   
Yeah I don't believe it...

My guess is that he's been cheating on his wife with Tiger Woods.
Old    E.J. (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-26-2009, 4:19 PM Reply   

quote:

"I have given my heart and soul to coaching college football and mentoring young men for the last 24-plus years and I have dedicated most of my waking moments the last five years to the Gator football program," Meyer, 45, said in statement. "I have ignored my health for years, but recent developments have forced me to reevaluate my priorities of faith and family.

"After consulting with my family, Dr. Machen, Jeremy Foley and my doctors, I believe it is in my best interest to step aside and focus on my health and family."




I hope there is not a serious health issue, though that is what I read into this statement....

I wish him and his family the best.
Old    E.J. (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-30-2009, 10:21 AM Reply   
http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/Texas-Tech-Mike-Leach-fired-123009

Leach is gone....

Cannot believe they fired him....
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       12-30-2009, 12:12 PM Reply   
Personally, I think it was a bad move. In the article it even says that the reciever was not a hard worker and didn't care about the team. This isn't like Mangini where several players came forward. This was one guy, with a bad reputation. This will come back to haunt TT
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       12-30-2009, 1:12 PM Reply   
Here is a link to an interview with Leach's lawyer showing the "shed" and "electrical closet". His lawyer also says there were trainers with him at all times pretty much, not guards at the door. Craig James' son sounds like a little self entitled Pansie. Even former players are saying he was a lazy . I guess Texas Tech just wanted to get rid of Leach and this was their only option. I hope he gets every penny they are suppose to pay him.

http://www.kcbd.com/global/Category.asp?C=151146&clipId=&topVideoCatNo=108431 &topVideoCatNoB=108535&topVideoCatNoC=111448&topVi deoCatNoD=108536&topVideoCatNoE=111449&autoStart=t rue&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=4421239&flvUri=&p artnerclipid
Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-30-2009, 1:30 PM Reply   
it's a sad sad day in Tech land

it will take Tech a long long long time to ever get back to the level that Leach got them to

bad move Tech
Old    Manzo (zo1)      Join Date: Aug 2002       12-30-2009, 1:48 PM Reply   
This is a joke.

TT saved them selves 800k in bonus payment, will spend at least that in the courtroom and Leach will be coaching a real team by the 2011 season.
Old    Marshallk (marshk344)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-30-2009, 3:07 PM Reply   
$50 says Adam James transfers to another school here pretty soon.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       12-30-2009, 3:13 PM Reply   
That is what it sounds like. I heard that he was unhappy about playing time and him and his father wanted Leach to approve release to SMU but Leach refused. The AD caved in and fired Leach. It sounds like they were just setting him up to get fired or something. This is bad for Texas Tech.


The latest is that the interim coach Ruffin McNeil is resigning. From what I heard he was a class act so this continues to smell like rotten eggs.

(Message edited by polarbill on December 30, 2009)
Old    Big D (bigdtx)      Join Date: Feb 2005       12-30-2009, 3:25 PM Reply   
Goodbye TT. Nice knowin' ya. Their AD - Gerald Meyers is an idiot. He's used to be the basketball coach and doesn't like Leach. I was surprised that he came back after last year - they'll never beat last years record. He'll get paid, go to a bigger school or the NFL and Tech will go back to being like Baylor - automatic win for every Big 12 opponent.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       01-02-2010, 8:37 AM Reply   
What is going on with the mighty PAC-10? I mean they do have a win over Wake Forest and the Owls but not much of a showing for the "best conference in football"
Old    Hayes (hayes)      Join Date: Aug 2007       01-02-2010, 8:53 AM Reply   
Everyone still think Cincinatti deserved a shot at the title? Looks like the Gators easily handled them. I just wish Texas had of lost and we (Alabama) could have played them for the National Title!

Roll Tide!
Old    Strib (baldboarder)      Join Date: Aug 2002       01-02-2010, 2:16 PM Reply   
It will be easy in Lubbock or almost anywhere in Texas to find 9 people on a jury to side with Mike Leach on this one. Texas Tech is going to have to pay a lot of money for this to go away. If it goes to a trial, expect punitive damages against Texas Tech to exceed $10 million. And another thought. Wouldn't it be great if ESPN fired Craig James and hired Mike Leach?
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-02-2010, 3:00 PM Reply   
Cincy never showed up, that was quite pathetic. It looked like just an issue of one team was athletically better. The match ups were un-even across the board.

Especially with it being Tebows last game, we expected him to show up, but damn, Cincy shouldn't of got off the plane.
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-02-2010, 6:16 PM Reply   
And as an Arkansas Fan, I am so proud of our kicker. He has blown more than his share of games, and he finally put one down the middle when it counts. An ugly, ugly win against a mediocre team; but our kicker can get a good nights sleep finally.
Old    Adam Van Dyke (lfadam)      Join Date: Nov 2008       01-02-2010, 7:32 PM Reply   
Ya geez, ECU's kicker had 3 chances to win that game. Wow.
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-02-2010, 8:48 PM Reply   
Yeah, but this is evening things out for Arkansas. We could of won against LSU and Florida, but our kicker choked and blew the game. We were owed a win from our kicking game
Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       01-05-2010, 9:23 PM Reply   
Tubberville interviewing for the Texas Tech head coaching vacancy. Is there any way in he$$ that he would want to work for an administration like that!?

or....would Tech really wanna shell out the dough that it would take to get him

http://www.cbs7kosa.com/news/details.asp?ID=17242

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