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Old     (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-17-2009, 11:38 AM Reply   
I put off replacing/upgrading my 2000 BU VLX last year because of a family health issue only to resume my search now.

Got any suggestions?

Wake is king. I like a vert wake thats not overly rampy. Somewhere between the old BU VLX and the old CC 210. Something like the new CC 210 seems ideal for me. Quality, storage and comfort are also very important.

Anything new coming CC, BU or SUPRA or MB? I was impressed by the MB TWB test ride last year so if you have feedback on that, I would appreciate it. Also, whats the verdict on the latest BU VLX wake?

21' vdrives only.
Old     (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       12-17-2009, 12:09 PM Reply   
21v supra has a vert wake.
Old     (jmcdanie)      Join Date: Oct 2009       12-17-2009, 12:32 PM Reply   
I have a 2010 MB it!

Since you already test drove a TWB, you already know the wake is insane with just the stock ballast system!!

This is my first Vdrive, so really cannot compare it to the others easily, but I can say that the quality is top notch, the storage is abundant (especially since the 1800 pounds of ballast is under the floor), and it is very comfy. Plus, I like the look of them over some of the other brands that all seem to look alike (just my opinion, please do not blast me for having one)....

The thing that impressed me most about the MB was that it did not have all of this extra stuff that usually breaks (and in my opinion is not needed) or has to be maintained on a boat. There are no ballast pumps and the boat is quick to fill and empty. There are not alot of fancy electronic screens and such that would cost an arm and a leg when they break either.

I am not sure there are alot of new bells and whistles coming (compared to the 2009 line), but the boat has all the needs, and all the wants covered straight out of the box. LED lighting inside, built in ballast, strong tower, great cockpit room for the size, 343 HP PCM motor without upgrading (more HP if you have the CAT motor I understand), more storage than I know what to do with, stereo comes with 6 speakers and a sub usually, and it fits in a standard garage.

I am sure others will post their comments on the other boats. I am not sure you can go wrong with any of the boats you listed, just seems like you have to figure out what your needs are and go from there.

Good luck with your search!!

(Message edited by jmcdanie on December 17, 2009)
Old     (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       12-17-2009, 1:15 PM Reply   
If you are looking for a vert wake on a 21v boat, you can't beat a Supra 21v. It's truly in a class of it's own.
Old     (bmartin)      Join Date: Jan 2007       12-17-2009, 1:24 PM Reply   
The steepest wakes I have been behind are the SAN210 and Cent Avalanche or other Cent non-enzo hull. If you have the money, tough to beat a SAN. The Supra 21v is not mellow but not as steep as the Cents or SANs.
Old     (gumtree)      Join Date: Mar 2009       12-17-2009, 1:24 PM Reply   
Tige's Z1 is impressive, really new design too.
Old     (jonyb)      Join Date: Nov 2008       12-17-2009, 1:48 PM Reply   
As a Supra owner, I'd buy a Malibu....
Old     (jon_a)      Join Date: Feb 2003       12-17-2009, 2:08 PM Reply   
John Bauer,

I normally don't do this but your post helped nobody, including yourself.

And just my 2 cents, if you want a vert wake, don't buy a Malibu. For a vert wake, I'd go with a Supra 21V.

(Message edited by Jon_A on December 17, 2009)
Old     (ctimrun)      Join Date: Aug 2009       12-17-2009, 2:16 PM Reply   
I think you can't go wrong with any of the boats you are thinking about. I was in the same position you are in. Looking for a great quality 21' boat with a great wake.

I test drove a Malibu VLX, Centurion Avalanche and Enzo, Mastercraft X2, X15, and X Star, a Supra 21v, and obviously my 210 SAN that I ended up buying. The quality of MC and CC were very close, but there were a couple things about the MC boats that just weren't for me such as the wild graphics of the ones that were available when I was looking. I did not like the look of the towers on the MC boats. I also did not like the fact that the MC boats came with MC trailers and my local dealer would not allow me to substitute a non MC trailer for one of my choice unless I paid for the MC trailer too.

The wake on the SAN 210 (230 is also awesome but you only are looking at 21') is second to none. With the stock ballast system the wake is too big for most riders, and this need to have the biggest wake on the lake is a status thing. The wake on these SAN's goes forever and is very consistent.

The quality of CC's is awesome. CC quality is the best with MC a close second. When I was looking I spent countless hours looking at everything you looked at except MB because there were no local dealers. I spent time in all these boats digging around looking for flaws which all of them have if you look hard enough, but it seemed to me that CC had the fewest. The Malibu was probably the worst, maybe the two I looked at slipped through the quality control checks, but I found loose screws, wood shavings, extra parts, cut hoses, etc. in the bottom of the hulls on both of the BU's I looked at.

My 210 also is very comfortable and we never go out with fewer than 6 adults, sometimes up to 12 people. I know some people don't like the seating configurations of the CC's, but I like the versatility of being able to turn around the rear seat for viewing purposes. Very flexible IMO!

This may not be a huge consideration for you, but was for me, it seemed to me that the resale of the CC's was also very good when comparing them to other MFG's.

Looks like you may be in California. Give Pete at California Correct Craft a call, I am pretty sure they have a couple left over 2008 210's there that you could get a screaming deal on. They will also beat other dealers when it comes to ordering a new one. They ship boats all over the world! I bought mine from them and will be buying my next boat there as well (might step it up to a 230 next time), they have taken very good care of us.

(Message edited by ctimrun on December 17, 2009)
Old     (formfunction)      Join Date: Jun 2008       12-17-2009, 2:50 PM Reply   
Don't forget to put Sanger on your short list.You might fall in love with a 215
Old     (dirwoody)      Join Date: Apr 2003       12-17-2009, 2:59 PM Reply   
Make sure and check out a Tige while you're at it. They've really stepped it up and the wake is right between the CC and BU (at least in the models I've been behind.
Old     (jonyb)      Join Date: Nov 2008       12-17-2009, 3:41 PM Reply   
Jon Allen, the Supra's are built like crap. Mine is 2 years old and all the self-tapping screws they built it with are falling out. Did that help? Just one of the many issues.
Old     (99_slaunch)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-17-2009, 3:55 PM Reply   
Hmm no issues with our Supra. I would not hesitate to buy another one either.
Old     (gharvin)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-17-2009, 4:54 PM Reply   
I love my 210.
I have owned:
Moomba Outback
Supra 21v
Correct Craft 211 Team
2009 SAN210

The 210 is the most versatile boat of all of these, wake, surf, and even ski (every now and then).

Jonyb is right on the supra quality they rattle loose and I even had a swim deck fall off due to the self tapping screws. Major step up for me from the Supra to the Correct Craft. I would really spend some time in a 210 and find a great deal on an 08-09 that is new you won't regret it.
Old     (wakeandmx)      Join Date: Apr 2009       12-17-2009, 5:21 PM Reply   
Malibu owner, i'd buy a 210. Next time i will.
Old     (delmage171)      Join Date: Mar 2008       12-17-2009, 8:35 PM Reply   
210 all the way!

nothing like Nautique Quality!
Old     (jonyb)      Join Date: Nov 2008       12-17-2009, 8:39 PM Reply   
Gary, I've heard of someone else with that problem. As they were standing on the platform about to jump out for a set, the platform bolts pulled through the transom. There was no backing plate for the screws. It was a fairly new boat too.

I can say that Boatmate and Roswell have been excellent with their warranty and customer service. My dealings with Skier's Choice weren't so good though. I've explained that on here before but I won't go into it again.....
Old     (dru1974)      Join Date: Nov 2009       12-17-2009, 9:12 PM Reply   
Had many boats myself cc. bu's brendella and mb and a supra and now a mob....anyhow I think s.c. build a great boat, I would never get a anyway. They are not in the same category as a supra cc mc or bu. they are a step up in build quality and inovation than anybody. I do like the quality and inovation of the Tiga boats, havent skied one but have followed there progress since 94 when I first heard of them.
I would consider a Tiga, from what I hear they are a great boat Although they are priced high
Old     (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       12-18-2009, 5:23 AM Reply   
For me it would be CC 210 vs MB TWB. I owned a couple of 210's, now have a MB TWB and love it. I do think it is a close call though, unless you compare prices.
Old     (formfunction)      Join Date: Jun 2008       12-18-2009, 6:03 AM Reply   
Why not send your current boat to be rebuilt and upgraded.Save some money and have exactly what you want.
Old     (formfunction)      Join Date: Jun 2008       12-18-2009, 6:27 AM Reply   
Let me elaborate on that post a bit.
1.When you trade that boat in there going to give you pennies on the dollar for it.
2.If your looking for a magical 2010 wake your going to be dissapointed in the fact that hull design hasn't changed since your current boat and you own one of the better hulls from the getgo.In reality the industry has been beating around the bush with new tower designs and flashy dashboards instead of getting to the root of wakeboarding(the wake).Sure there has been a few minor improvements and a few good hulls but not the innovation you would expect from a fifteen year old industry.
3.There is nothing a new boat has to offer that you can't buy and have ups to your front door except the ability to say you have a new boat which in the grand scheme of things counts for not.
Old     (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       12-18-2009, 6:54 AM Reply   
hey all new to this forum thought i would give my 2 cents all the boats you metion are good boats brock is right cc still uses the same basic hull they did in the eightys. i to was shoping for a sub 21 footer after testing all available boats in the sub 21 foot catagorey i went with the centurion falcon v largest sub 21 footer on the market and have had no regrets i scored a brand new repo for 30.000 there are still a few left this boat does many things well surf wakeboard and ski and for the price you can rig however you want not shure why all the hate for centurion the boat is solid no rattles and they have been in the game for a long time
Old     (wakebrdr38)      Join Date: Sep 2006       12-18-2009, 7:31 AM Reply   
I really liked the new 210 when I rode behind it. It was stock ballast with 6 guys in the boat, and a I got booted a couple times when I took it to the flats. Its still a poppy w2w boat though. I thought it was one of the best wakes I had ever ridden until I rode a slammed 230 later that day. Nothing compares to the slammed 230 (except for a slammed x star but I still havent gotten to ride that yet).

To say CC hasnt changed their hull MUCH since the 80's is a pretty true statement. However, neither has any of the other companies really. I would go in depth on this but it would just start crap so I will leave my opinion being that the hulls in our industry have not had enough innovation just like Brock said.

I keep hoping that since CC stepped up and revolutionized their slalom hull with the sn200 that they will do something along the same lines for wakeboarding. Hopefully not 15 or 20 years down the road like it took for the slalom industry.

Just my .02
Old     (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-18-2009, 8:01 AM Reply   

The newer VLX wake is more vert than my 2000 VLX wake (which is guite rampy). I know for sure that BU improved the wake on the VLX in the mid 2000s. What I don't know is if their latest wake is less/more rampy. Is the latest VLX wake righteous?

The new SAN wake is less vert than the old SAN wake (which is quite severe). I also know for sure that CC changed their hull and I believe it to be an improvement. My only issue with the latest SAN is with the blocky interior. Is the new SAN interior functional and comfortable?

The new TWB is a seemingly sweet boat. I dig the wake, the interior and the ballast system. My only issues are with the gel coat styling and unknowns about their build quality. Does the TWB's lower price equate to less quality?

So, I would like to hear about real life user experiences -- especially user experiences without "ownership goggles" applied.
Old     (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       12-18-2009, 8:07 AM Reply   
kevin i do agree with you cc makes a great boat so does bu and mb never been to wild on mc though. the problem is the market has changed prices have dropped yet these brands have not dropped thier prices the day of the 70.000 dollar wake boat are over when you buy one of these you are upside down and will have a toughf time selling down the road with proper ballist you can get a great wake from just about any brand price is what you pay value is what you get i dont care what brand it is the wake is not 40.000 dollars better than the rest for that kind of coin you could do quite a bit of customizeing and have what you want after all who wants the same boat as the next guy just my opinion
Old     (gharvin)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-18-2009, 8:27 AM Reply   
i myself prefer the interior of my 210. When shopping for it I looked at the Bu's and did not like the rounded interiors. I prefer the sharp lines of my interior, we also really enjoy all of the rear facing seating options.
Old     (jmcdanie)      Join Date: Oct 2009       12-18-2009, 8:35 AM Reply   
I do have ownership goggles so I will just leave you with this statement for your question about lower price = less quality.

Check out the MB warranty....In my opinion, the build quality is superb and the warranty backs that up. Plus, it has a PCM power plant....can't go wrong with PCM.

Good luck..
Old     (adam4x4)      Join Date: Jan 2009       12-18-2009, 8:56 AM Reply   
i'm going to looking in the spring also for a new boat! my wife is taking mine in a divorce. . so now i must get a new one. i also want a 21' v-drive, what do think of the 21 tomcat? i had herd that mb boat are a great bout for the money.
Old     (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-18-2009, 9:02 AM Reply   
Joe, warranties do little for my confidence. I was thrilled when my BU warranty ran out since the service I got under warranty was SO AWFUL (with ultimate watersports). I would rather just not need the warranty because the boat is rock solid. I hope this makes sense.
Old     (jmcdanie)      Join Date: Oct 2009       12-18-2009, 9:16 AM Reply   
GD, I can agree with you on the not wanting to have to use a warranty, but for me, if you have to use a warranty, it is good to have one of the best in the business. (I think that folks satisfaction with warranties is sometimes directly related to the dealer they are working with).

Adam, The 21 Tomcat is the same hull as the TWB except it has the pickle fork front end. Other than the pickle fork (which adds a good amount of bow seating area), it is the same as far as I know.
Old     (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       12-18-2009, 9:23 AM Reply   
I've had MB's the last two years with zero problems. IMO it is a rock solid boat.
Old     (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       12-18-2009, 10:58 AM Reply   
Here is some info and pictures (a few opinions too) on the MB TWB. Before I start, let me just say that I LOVE the VLX, 210, 21V, and X15. I would happily park any one of those boats in my garage.

PRICE: MB's prices are not much lower than the Big 3. The MSRP on a fully loaded TWB can easily reach $70K. Maybe you can negotiate a better deal on TWB than the others, but don't be fooled thinking that the MB is a bargain-basement, price-point boat. It is not.

GRAPHICS: GD, I don't know why you keep bringing this up. You can get an all white MB TWB, which you've said you wanted (see my profile pic). You can keep it white (like I have) or put your own custom wrap on it (like I might). Or you can custom order any gel coat design you want. Seriously, graphics should not be the reason you don't go MB.

ENGINE: MB uses PCM, same as Nautique. I didn't put any stock in this when I was shopping because I figured they were all basically the same. But after a summer on the water in lots of different boats, I feel lucky to have a PCM. It's soooo quiet, much quieter than my friend's MC (Indmar MCX) or Calabria (Mercruiser Scorpion). My buddy with the Calabria might switch to the MB just because of engine noise!

INTERIOR: Like you I never liked the Nauti's squarish looking interior. I feel the same about MC... too hard and edgy for me. I like rounded and soft. Malibu is my favorite interior, followed by my MB. The carpet and vinyl in the MB are very thick. I also love the observer seatback and creative placement of the sub (standard).


BIMINI: The TWB bimini top is HUGE! It covers from the base of the windshield almost all the way back to the swim pad.


TRANSOM SEAT: When the '09 VLX came out with this feature, I wanted one. The TWB has it also. I don't think it comes on any other 21' boats.


FLASH: The Big 3 win in this department. The MB has no flashy decal graphics, forward swept towers, chrome accessories, digital switches, dvd players, or large dash screens. If you want flash, stick with the Big 3. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the flash of the Big 3. This is not a knock on them at all. But I think the MB will age better, and there is nothing put on the boat that doesn't serve a purpose.

SIZE: The MB is 21' 0" with 100" beam and has a capacity of 16 people. I have had 15 adults on my boat (it was cozy). No 21' boat can match that. The VLX is rated for 11 people, the 210 holds 12 people. MB just makes GREAT use of space. They pushed the cockpit back as far as possible and left no wasted space in the engine bay. That makes the sun pad smaller than most boats. The locker openings are smaller than most boats too, but they are DEEP, and there are no bags or hard tanks competing for the space. Also, it fits in a standard garage... most 21' boats do not because on the trailer they are much longer or too tall.


THE CAVE: I really have grown to love the MB's room UNDER the dash board for the driver's feet. It's like a deep cave down there. As the driver, that's MY personal space. When I get in the water, this is where I throw my shirt, hat, etc. I also keep my Nikon DSLR down there... just resting on the soft, fully carpeted floor (not in a bag) so I can grab it at a moment's notice. It stays protected and dry in my little, shady cave! When I look at other boats now, I always look to see if they have a little driver's cave. MC doesn't, CC has weird, uneven floor down there that's not fully carpeted. Malibu has a little space, but it's not deep at all and the side wall is open to the walk thru.

BALLAST: MB TWB has 1,800 lbs. that fills or empties in a minute, all beneath the floor. It's not worth debating, this is just a better system.

WAKE: Yes, the MB makes a steep wake. With full ballast it can be a bit intimidating. I rode most of the summer w/out ballast and the boat still put out a nice, firm wake. Most of my friends who are better than me also rode sans ballast and still pulled off all kinds of sweet tricks. Here are some pics:

w/out ballast (rider is 5'11" tall):


with full ballast (rider is 6'0" tall):


SURF WAKE: The boat surfs great w/out any extra bags.


GD... you will be happy whatever you get. These are all very NICE boats. And I'm sure the owner's of each could write long posts like this one sharing the virtues of each.
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       12-18-2009, 11:16 AM Reply   
I have never really been a fan of MB's but the TWB sure seems to be a homerun. It appears to be great in everything except ski wake which is expected in a deep vdrive.
Old     (geterdone)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-18-2009, 11:43 AM Reply   
Can't go wrong with a Nautique!Upload
Old     (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       12-18-2009, 11:45 AM Reply   
Danny is looking a little scruffy in that pic. That is a sic boat.
Old     (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       12-18-2009, 11:48 AM Reply   
That natique has so much freeboard!
Old     (mckid)      Join Date: Dec 2009       12-18-2009, 11:50 AM Reply   
i would buy the super air 210. good style,clean wake, and the new towers r pretty sick plus theyre new seatin arrangment is sick so its a good family boat too

(Message edited by mckid on December 18, 2009)
Old     (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       12-18-2009, 12:30 PM Reply   
if you have the cash - natique
Old     (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-18-2009, 1:08 PM Reply   
Whatever you buy, you may want to do it now. 2010 production is way down from every manufacturer (so no excess of 2010 boats) and the deals on left over 2009 boats are amazing (because the manufacturers produced too many boats for the lack of demand). Also, most 2010 prices went up 7-12%. I don't know if the Textron deals are still going on - they are getting out of the floor finance business and wanted to get rid of boats fast. GE is charging a lot more to finance the floor boats for the dealers so that is eating into dealer profit on new boats too. I shopped (and purchased) a couple of months ago and the deals at every dealer for every boat brand were once in a lifetime type of deals.

(Message edited by tre on December 18, 2009)
Old     (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       12-18-2009, 1:43 PM Reply   
It's pics like that green 210 that make me LOVE the big 3, as stated in my MB post. Just a really hot looking boat.

And I have to correct one error in my post... looks like the 210 has a transom seat too.

Nice boat, Cory!
Old     (geterdone)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-18-2009, 2:20 PM Reply   
Not my boat and it is a 230, but the 210 does have the transom seat.
Check your local Nautique dealer and ask them about the list of Nautiques from dealers that went out of business. These boats will go fast but I know there is at least one 08 210 and a couple of 230's. Good Luck!
Old     (greg2)      Join Date: May 2002       12-18-2009, 10:40 PM Reply   
Maybe not all the bling, but a Malibu 21 V-Ride is built on a proven wake hull and is steeper than the old VLX. Steepness can be tuned easily with the power wedge. I had an 04 VLX and now have an 09 V-Ride, so I have experience with both.
Old     (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-18-2009, 11:46 PM Reply   
Cory, that green CC looks great! I dig the new tower and bimini. I actually prefer the 23' styling but just don't want that big a boat.
Old     (Walt)      Join Date: Jan 2003       12-19-2009, 9:02 AM Reply   
Take a set behind a Sanger V-215. It might be a good fit for you.
Old     (motorcitymatt)      Join Date: Feb 2007       12-19-2009, 4:42 PM Reply   
MB all the way!}
Old     (daveronix199)      Join Date: Feb 2009       12-19-2009, 6:21 PM Reply   
MasterCraft Owner.....SAN 210 or 230
Old     (malibudude)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-21-2009, 12:21 PM Reply   
Keep in mind the Power Wedge can be raised giving a more vertical wake. Depending upon ones taste a little extra weight may be needed up front. When I pull more vertical wake oriented rider I bump up the PW two clicks. I’ve got ownership goggles so anything more than that is biased…
Old     (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       12-21-2009, 12:41 PM Reply   
Friend has a 210 and I think only 700 lbs (cant remember) of ballast and it really jacks up. Wake alone I might pick that but closest dealer is 2hrs away. I would say BU is a more comfortable boat than the 08 210. I have not been behind a new Malibu though.
Old     (loudontn)      Join Date: Feb 2005       12-21-2009, 12:42 PM Reply   
Try a Supra 21v...steepest wake I've ever ridden against.

and as much as I appreciate John Bauer's opinion, he has been the most vocal of opponents to Supra across all of the boards after having had issues with his. I can understand his frustration, but don't let it be a turn off to Supra as they build a high quality boat. I have several friends who own them (including myself) who rave about them. Mine is an '05 24 and it's rock solid.
Old     (02wakesettervlx)      Join Date: Jun 2001       12-22-2009, 5:22 AM Reply   

In the boats that you're looking at, I would go with the MB. You've already said that you like the boat, they will do the gel up the way you want it, and they build solid boats. Their vinyl is thicker than anyone elses, if I remember correctly, something like 56 oz. versus 35 oz. for everyone else. MB stands behind their boats, so I really don't see the debate. All this coming from a former Bu, and current MC owner.
Old     (rugdr)      Join Date: Feb 2007       12-22-2009, 6:16 AM Reply   
GD, I still have my 08' CC 210 for sale, that's as loaded as you can get plus about $6,000 in extras if your interested. Just let me know or pm me.


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