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Old     (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-02-2009, 7:46 AM Reply   
I hear that Vics on the Delta always has good glass for wakesurfing and the locals aren't close-minded yahoos at all.
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       09-02-2009, 8:04 AM Reply   
I don't even know what "Vics" is but it makes me want to get a crew of 40' cruisers together and just wakesurf from dawn to dusk after reading that thread.
Old     (wofrankwo)      Join Date: Jul 2009       09-02-2009, 8:49 AM Reply   
vics is a very very very long and wind free double slough in the delta with higher side leevees .... its always been a oval race track type of deal where everybody goes the same way round and round .... very very nice strech of water .... it was one of the top waterskiing spots back in the day 80s and early 90s .... i skied regularly from 75 to 93 .... just got a boat in dec 08 .... usually dont get that far south anymore unless the winds dictate it .... the first time we went back through there this year before we started wakesurfing we were wakeboarding and waterskiing and it was so funny to see 4 to 5 boats all wakebaording down this slough as they would leapfrog each other as riders would fall down and have to be restarted, it all worked smoothly yet it was very funny to me .... being an old waterskier the wakeboard boats had completely taken over and a waterskier going 32 to 34 mph would not be able to fit into this rotation .... and the waves the boats threw were enormous compared to our little mastercraft ski wakes .... i wonder if the waterskiers protested when the wakeboarders first started going there? .... and if history should repeat itself i would think the wakeboarders are on their way out? .... kind of longwinded explanation but i was trying to let you see this through my eyes .... its funny how life is just a matter of percption always taken from ones point of view
Old     (malibu)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-02-2009, 10:29 AM Reply   
Sounds like a great spot to surf! Let's all meet their this weekend. I couldn't believe that thread. No one group has any more right to the water than anyone else. We get up at 6:00 am on our day off to surf glass. Sometimes we have the lake to ourselves and sometimes we have to share it with a few wakeboarders.
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       09-02-2009, 11:54 PM Reply   
my $0.02 as posted in the other thread

Talking to Grant today, he brought this thread to my attention. It's so disappointing to see so many watersport enthusiasts that are completely clueless how their wakes impact others.

Let me start by stating that I am a waterskier, wakeboarder, barefooter, air chair pilot, wakeskater, wakesurfer, and closet tuber... I understand when it is appropriate to do my activities and when it is not. I have been doing this stuff on the same delta waterways since the 60's. I also used to waterski jump on the delta ramp over by the cable ferry (over 100') on weekends if you can believe that. These days that would be suicide.

Lots of you guys call yourselves wakesurfers but don't know how to wakesurf. Wakesurfing is following the boat in the pocket of the wave generating your own forward motion, not dragging behind the boat with the rope. If you have a rope in your hand riding on a board with no bindings, that's called wakeskating, and you are doing that wrong too. I get so tired of seeing these wallys out on the delta, no clue where the pocket is, no clue how to set up their boat to make a surfable wake, generally no clue. Not understanding wake dynamics is one of the fundamental problems with lots of folks calling themselves wakesurfers.

When my boat is setup for wakesurfing it throws a 3' tall wake and a swell that is about 2' peak to valley with about 40' between peaks. The swell follows the boat for at least a mile. Going 10mph down a straight slough sets up the swell and destroys the water for all others one mile for every 6 surfing.


Now anybody arguing that wakesurfing is good on a slough like Victoria, Grant Line, Railroad, the Double cut, etc. cannot understand the dynamics of the wake they are producing. The delta in general is a very poor place to wakesurf. I was there last Sunday, we were surfing out on the Old River with 3 other surfing boats. It was a mess, it was tough to get a decent wake built with swells running amok. I prefer to wakesurf on a lake where I can surf in a big circle, best when there are no other boats around messing up my wake.

Once you learn to wakesurf correctly you won't want to wakesurf around other boats wakesurfing or boarding.

These days I am getting less irritated with tubers and more irritated with wally wakesurfers (not to be confused with capable wakesurfers).
Old     (wakebrdjay)      Join Date: Apr 2008       09-03-2009, 5:17 AM Reply   
I look at it this way.If I get up early and hit a spot and i'm there 1st then surfing that spot is my reward for getting going and being there 1st.If I roll up to a spot and it's being used by wakeboarders or skiers time to look elsewhere.
Old     (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-03-2009, 5:26 AM Reply   
I'm not going to get into this argument, because I don't think either side really wants to resolve the conflict. For general education of wakesurfers though, this picture might be helpful. When you wakesurf you throw two separate rollers. The one off to the sides just like a wakeboarder, but you also send one straight ahead, in the picture it's represented by the black arrow. In a slough, the roller to the side hits the riprap on the levy and dissipates, the roller that goes straight ahead doesn't hit anything and so tends to go on for ages, as Mikeski points out. IMO, that's not what the argument is about, but it's that roller that the wakeboarders focus their argument on.

Old     (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-03-2009, 6:34 AM Reply   


Once you learn to wakesurf correctly you won't want to wakesurf around other boats wakesurfing or boarding

and that's going to happen by only riding in windy open areas?

(Message edited by CAskimmer on September 03, 2009)
Old     (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-03-2009, 6:39 AM Reply   


I look at it this way.If I get up early and hit a spot and i'm there 1st then surfing that spot is my reward for getting going and being there 1st.If I roll up to a spot and it's being used by wakeboarders or skiers time to look elsewhere.

"first come, first served"

Survey says...DING..DING..DING...Number 1 answer

respect is a two way street. I'll go out of my way to avoid other boater but wakeboarders don't do the same thing. They'll roll into an area already being used and feel entitled to it becaise their sport is "superior"

(Message edited by CAskimmer on September 03, 2009)
Old     (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       09-03-2009, 8:22 AM Reply   
You know what's funny, the lake we go to weekly is pretty narrow (about 1,100 feet wide) and if there is good water we wakeboard. If we see a surfer, we go around them! and deal with the tiny bit of chop while you are going around them. Then you hit the dam, turn and you are forced to go over the chop again briefly. What's the big deal? I'm not a pro wakeboarder nor will I ever be but as I wakeboard by the wakesurfers, I watch and see what tricks they are doing and admire anyone that is out enjoying the water! I certainly don't tell them to get the heck out of my space!
Old     (wotan)      Join Date: Jul 2008       09-03-2009, 8:39 AM Reply   
If you're there first -- you get to do what you want. Second comers need to respect your line and wait it out. It's not like you're going to be wakesurfing all day long (probably.)

The only time I get really irritated (and potentially rude) on our river is on the weekends. There is really only one short line near where we launch that is calm enough to wakeboard or deep enough to surf. There isn't a lot of competition from other wake boats -- but it is a place out of the wind where cabin cruisers want to come anchor or party barge. If we're on our line and 4-10 cabin cruisers come in and tie off right in the middle of it -- we do what we can to make them uncomfortable. Loud music, big wakes, and the occasional spray in their direction from a wakeboard and they usually have some choice words with us and then take off.

I can't understand this wakesurfer vs. wakeboarder hostility but it must happen on a section of water that is much more competitive than where I hang out. Where I'm at -- anyone in a wake boat seems to get along pretty damn well regardless of what they have under their feet.
Old     (slimjim44)      Join Date: Feb 2009       09-03-2009, 9:14 AM Reply   
I don't know about anyone else, but I generally don't feel comfortable surfing in a really narrow slough cause it is too dang hard to turn around.

Just some thoughts...if you are a really good wakeboarder, a couple rollers will either not affect you, or let you get bigger air.

A lot of wakeboard boats are running 1,000lbs of ballast, which also produces roller.

If Vics is shallow, why would anyone surf there anyways?
Old     (notsobueno)      Join Date: Dec 2004       09-03-2009, 11:14 AM Reply   
People who are generally not AVID wakesurfers are surfing at Vics IMO.

Also, these wakeboarders who say surfing should only be done in chop, are saying this because that is when they do it (if they surf at all), and this is the problem. They don't understand wakesurfing. It is just something for them to do when they are done wakeboarding, the water is blown out, and they are drinking heavily or drunk. They think it is the same for all who wakesurf.

I can't wait for someone to pull up to our boat and tell us to move to another spot.
Old                09-03-2009, 11:18 AM Reply   
I just started surfing, but I found surfing is fun when it's too choppy to wakeboard. I'm not a fan of anyone destroying the water, but I donít own the lake or river so I deal with it. Mikeski's post is idiotic. So if I'm a good surfer its ok?}
Old     (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       09-03-2009, 11:58 AM Reply   
I can wakesurf thru any chop you can give me(ropeless). So basically the wakesurfer will win, he needs less glass conditions to ride then any other watersport.If everybody shows respect to the other I am sure it will work out by staging your turn to ride. Can't we all just get along? (famous rodney king quote)
Old     (malibu)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-03-2009, 12:04 PM Reply   
notsobueno Nice post! Wakesurfing is my sole sport behind my boat. I get up early and go to the lake for the pure joy of riding my board behind my boat. I am working on tricks just like I use to do wakeboarding. Surfers have just as much right to enjoy glass as anyone else.
Old     (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       09-03-2009, 1:16 PM Reply   
So Shooter you find my post idiotic, I guess it just is too difficult for you to comprehend... In your words you just started, but you go calling my post idiotic??? Sorry it went over your head, you might understand in a few years.

Like I said the first time, I don't even like wakesurfing around other wakesurfers on channels like the Victoria slough. It's just not a great choice for that activity because of the rolling swell it creates. Surfing in a circle on a larger body of water eliminates the problem.

Surfing glass or small chop is much more conducive for learning spins and tricks (ropeless). Out of respect for other activities I won't do it if it is going to ruin the water for somebody else. Just like I won't slalom ski down a channel with people when they are barefooting, my goal is to preserve the best conditions for the majority of users.

Somebody mentioned that wakesurfers have become the new tubers. I actually have no issue with tubers, my issue relates to the general lack of understanding how their activity impacts the playground of others. Some wakesurfers have become just as clueless in this regard.

Old     (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-03-2009, 1:36 PM Reply   
That's weird because down here in SD at El Cap the only people you see doing powerturns are picking up downed wakeboarders. Guess there's clueless people regardless of the sport?

Helpful hint: telling somebody they shouldn't be doing something because it might ruin your time never works
Old     (notsobueno)      Join Date: Dec 2004       09-03-2009, 1:40 PM Reply   
I wonder what would happen if wakeboarder A told wakeboarder B that they shouldn't be messing up the glass and that A is a better rider than B, so therefore, go find some not so glassy water.
Old     (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-03-2009, 1:45 PM Reply   
probably wouldn't go over too well.
Old     (razzman)      Join Date: Dec 2006       09-03-2009, 3:40 PM Reply   
Normally i don't get involved in these arguements, but i'm seeing a lot of this stuff out on the water and frankly it's disturbing.

First come, first serve has been the rule since towed watersports began. That is the first rule of respect mostly forgotten. But what i am seeing is way to much attitude from wakeboarders concerning other watersports to the point where they are asking others to move (not so nicely) or just taking an area away by crowding others or moving into an area and blasting the music.

I've seen them churn the water in an area so bad nobody dared enter in to it, effectively chasing others away. This was at Don Pedro last year in the Woods Creek arm. Five boats running in a vee circled the arm creating such massive rollers that a number of boats took water over the bow and it was leave or risk getting swamped.

Is that what the sport has come down to? Being intolerable of other watersports enthusiests? Stating we hate tubers or wakesurfers? Are we now so intolerable of others that we say unless you know how to do it right then stay out of our area? Where are these inept infidels to learn then? In approved "Learning" facilities? Sounds pretty stupid doesn't it. But that's what i get out of the crap that spews out of the wakeboarding forum on almost a daily basis these days. Some people seriously need to step back and take a look at their elitist attitudes and realize they ain't all that.

Sorry for the length, just gettin' it out is all and hoping it can be corrected before it's too late. I have 5 grandsons and we do it all, boarding, surfing and yes tubing because kids are kids and it's fun for them. On a segway i actually know someone who won't let their kids tube (on any boat) because they hate it and will ONLY allow wakeboarding ... what a douche.
Old     (wakekat15)      Join Date: Jul 2005       09-03-2009, 4:11 PM Reply   
I agree, Razzman! If we roll into a good area and someone else is there first, we either go somewhere else or wait to see if they will share the line or otherwise, the good water between riders. This is true regardless of whether they are barefooting, slalom skiing, wakesurfing and of course, tubing! If we are there first and see someone waiting to share the good water, we sit out a set and swap. Sharing a line only works if multiple boats are doing the same activity @ a similar speed and know how to drive. It seems to work most of the time.

As for the elitist attitude, I don't get it. In the Wakeboarding Capital of the World, we see more wakeboard boats with no ability to share a line and doing power turns.

I say go out and do your thing safely and with respect for those around you & true water enthusiasts will be super stoked for you!
Old     (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-14-2009, 6:00 PM Reply   
OK, so everbody who has been doing this for awhile knows that you needs water deeper than 12' for a proper wake so Vics isn't really a viable option but the Boca Resevoir on the other hand is a great little lake and perfect option for Tahoe/ Reno wakesurfers. Tell everyone

directions here -
Old     (tsbs)      Join Date: Jan 2007       09-15-2009, 12:31 PM Reply   
Don't worry man... All the DB wakesurfers already know where it is.

Mikeski's post is dead on. There is a time and a place for everything. Surfing on Vic's is stupid for a lot of reason. Nobody is more entitled to water than anyone else. I guarantee a wakesurfer is no more happy with a Tuber zig-zagging in their line than a boarder is with a surfer rolling theirs out.

My point is... If it's better to surf in deep water, then why not stay out in the river. Same thing with tubing. Stay where it's wider, safer and more fun because you don't have to worry about whipping your tuber into the rocks.

This debate is age old. If you've been in the water long enough, then you can remember the skiiers and the wakeboarders getting into it.

People just need to learn. Once you're educated you understand why other people are frustrated with your behavior. I've ridden with a ton of people that had no idea why a power turn was bad. Educate them. Teach them how to give a good pull, whether surfing or wakeboarding and we'll all be happier and do a better job of sharing the waterways. It's really just going to get more crowded out there.

Some people get so into themselves that they can't remember we're all out there to have fun.
Old     (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-16-2009, 6:16 AM Reply   
but if the behavior they're frustrated with is simply that I'm somewhere they want to be instead then tough cookies

edit: and I know everyone who rides up there knows where Boca is. I lived in Truckee/ Tahoe Donner for 6 years. I was kind of making the point that if you tell us to leave 1 place you might find we've moved to somewhere you want us even less.
Old     (tsbs)      Join Date: Jan 2007       09-16-2009, 10:17 AM Reply   
Gotcha, because you kinda came off like a spoiled 3rd grader in your post. Thanks for clarifying.
Old     (norcalmalibu)      Join Date: Jun 2004       09-16-2009, 10:51 AM Reply   
I cant agree more with everything that Mike has said. It comes down to consideration of fellow riders.

Victoria has become a new haven for wakesurfers and its dissapointing. I often stop and will explain to wakesurfers how one wakesurfer will blow the whole slough out for 10 wakeboarders. I'm polite and ask the driver to head to Old river or another part of the delta. Iím not saying I own the delta but I do have respect for the delta. I donít powerturn unless its an emergency. I typically ride sloughs that are often hidden and I will wait for boats to pass so I donít take off in front of their water. I want good water just like the next guy and it takes everyone doing their part. Unfortunitley wakesurfing seems to be the next ďitĒ thing and its destroying the water.


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