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Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive > Archive through April 26, 2009

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Old     (freshtracks)      Join Date: Feb 2006       03-30-2009, 5:04 PM Reply   
I need to replace my Odyssey's and want to see what else you guys are using. Thanks.
Old    John Bauer (jonyb)      Join Date: Nov 2008       03-30-2009, 5:23 PM Reply   
I'm using Stinger, but there's also Kinetic and a few other brands that are good.
Old     (freshtracks)      Join Date: Feb 2006       03-30-2009, 5:29 PM Reply   
Appreciate it. I also wanted to ask to the pro's, are the high end batteries worth the cash? I mean, will the "marine grade deep cycle" from West Marine do the job? The reason I'm asking is I just lost 3 Odysseys and I'm not real happy with them. They were still under warranty, however Odyessy is not willing to replace them. So, I'm over giving them my business.

(Message edited by FreshTracks on March 30, 2009)
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       03-30-2009, 6:31 PM Reply   
Save yourself a ton of cash and go buy a good quality AGM marine battery. My company sells Deka batteries. Most people haven't heard of them because they have been more associated with the industrial/heavy-Duty side of things. They make lead/acid, Gel and AGM batteries. To give you an idea of the quality they are the OEM supplier to pretty much every over the road truck manufacturer except International. I believe they have a dealer locator on their website. We have been consistently impressed with the quality of their product. Their batteries also consistently test better than their specs. You should be able to get group 27 AGM marine batteries(8A27M) for 150-175 each. They have way better specs than Optima Blue tops and are considerably cheaper. Here is their website and also a page with the specs of their AGM batteries.

http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/default.aspx?pageid=468

http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/assets/base/0245.pdf

Oh yeah, they are made int he US as well.
Old    Ewing (johnsvt)      Join Date: Dec 2006       03-30-2009, 6:39 PM Reply   
Kinetic is popular but I would definitely consider Deka...


http://www.remybattery.com/Products/Deka-Intimidator-Battery---9A31__9A31.aspx
Old    Terry H. (x45er)      Join Date: Nov 2007       03-30-2009, 7:38 PM Reply   
What does "lost them" mean? All three went out at once? I have never seen this unless there is a problem with the charging circuit/battery charger.

Please describe what the failure is...
Old    SaltwaterX15 (bullit4888)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-30-2009, 7:46 PM Reply   
I bought a couple Deka 31 series batteries from Brett last year. They have held up very well and I'm very impressed with them. The best part is that they were significantly cheaper than comparable batteries.
Old    C. R. (crushing76)      Join Date: Feb 2007       03-30-2009, 10:48 PM Reply   
I just put some Dekas in mine. I'm about to fire it up for the first time tomorrow, so we'll see how they do.. They seem pretty beefy and the price was right.
Old    266CrownlineBR (266crownlinebr)      Join Date: Apr 2007       03-30-2009, 11:21 PM Reply   
I bought 3 optima D31M's two years ago and just had to replace them. They were over $250 a piece. My 2004/2005 Nautalus Gold (24) batteries are still running strong. At $95 a piece, I replaced my optimas with 2 Nautalus Gold (27) batteries. If I am going to be replacing batteries, it is going to be the cheaper ones.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-30-2009, 11:48 PM Reply   
I picked up 2 kinetiks 1800s last summer from JCwhitney for $360 shipped.

so far they have been perfect. I did a quick search and can't find the batteries I purchased for less than $400 each. that seems lik way too much. I would look for something else.
Old    Luke the Drifter (tl_hereford)      Join Date: Nov 2008       03-31-2009, 6:47 AM Reply   
I just bought a kenetic 1800 off ebay for $220 shipped. It is sweet.
Old    Luke the Drifter (tl_hereford)      Join Date: Nov 2008       03-31-2009, 6:48 AM Reply   
^^ Kinetik
Old    Mike (ponyh8r)      Join Date: Dec 2004       03-31-2009, 7:51 AM Reply   
I run 3 Kinetik batteries and I love them. I can play my stereo for about 4-5 hrs hard without ever firing the boat up. If I were you I would also consider an onboard charging system.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-31-2009, 8:41 AM Reply   
Mike you have the hc2400's right? I figured you'd be able to play longer than that with those things in there.
Old    Mike (ponyh8r)      Join Date: Dec 2004       03-31-2009, 11:22 AM Reply   
Yeah,

I can generally run for 4-5hrs at full or near full volume. If I turn it down a bit it is longer. The batts are running a WS420, five amps, and two large amp fans. Once the voltage gets around 11 or 11.5V I usually call it quits. The 2400s are awesome though. Depending on your application, I am sure they can go much longer.
Old    Bruce Mac (brucemac)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-31-2009, 12:14 PM Reply   
not to totally hijack, but it is relevant. hey mike or others, question for you. do you guys with larger systems do anything special to your charging system to sustain that load while the boat is on or is your stereo bank of batteries independant of the charging system and require a recharge when you're off the lake? i ask only because i'd really like to add a 3rd amp which would take me from 1500W RMS to 2500W RMS. my alternator is only rated at 70A. ideally, i'd like to be able to recharge the stereo bank on the water for road trips/houseboat trips etc, where plugging in a charger is not an option. i think the total in fuses with the 3 amps would be somewhere around 300 Amps.
Old    Sam (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-31-2009, 12:24 PM Reply   
Mike,

your killing your batt's if your letting them get down to even close to 11.5 volt. 11.5 is pretty close to a dead battery ( zero capacity), any lower than 11 and you start damaging it.

Bruce,

Don't try and use that 70 amp alt as a battery charger...it won't last long.

B/c it hasnt' been thrown out there yet...best bang for your buck are 6 volt batt's. ( 2 wired in series)
Old    Mike (ponyh8r)      Join Date: Dec 2004       03-31-2009, 12:24 PM Reply   
Bruce,

I have a starting battery obviously that I use to start the boat. The rest of the batts or battery bank, is isolated and charged with an onboard charger that I plug in after each use. I am running about 2350 RMS watts. I say this cuz I have a 1000/1, 2 300/2, 300/4 and a 450/4. These five amps would add up to 2350. I am not sure of a way to really push as many amps as you want without isolating the batts, unless you plan on upgrading your alternator/charging system.
Old    Bruce Mac (brucemac)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-31-2009, 12:36 PM Reply   
sam, yeah thanks. i know. i'm not doing anything else until i address the charging system or figure out a different plan. i'm anxious to get out on the water and see how it does with the current 2 amp setup which is rated at 1500W. i know i'm not going to be pushing anywhere near 1500W, but want to see how it does while cranked up and the boat on. i currently just have 2 blue top batteries and a surepower 1314 seperator. one for the boat and gear and the 2nd for the stereo, eq, amps and ipod.

any suggestions or possibly a point in the right direction for mathematically calculating my charging system needs for that 3rd amp?
Old    Sam (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-31-2009, 12:59 PM Reply   
Thsoe big 1000/1 wil pull some serious amps, JL has done a great job marketing them, great amps but there regulated power supplies ( slash series only) are not ideal for a boat application where teh engien is off. Whent the votlage starts to drop, those amps start pulling a ton of amps. tehy will produce the same power at a decreased voltage. U cant' deny hm's law....watts/amp draw are inversley realted.

Bruce, I woudl keep a good charging routine and see how well the 70 amp alt does...my guess it it will throw 80 amps or so. FI you getting big voltage drops when the boat is running it may be time to upgrade. Instead of upgrading alts on my boat. I went with more effecient amps.
Old    Sam (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-31-2009, 12:59 PM Reply   
sorry for the spellig errors.
Old    Bruce Mac (brucemac)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-31-2009, 1:03 PM Reply   
yeah, i've got a Syn6 for towers and sub currently. replacing my inboat amp for syn4 in a few weeks. looking ahead though, i'm considering replacing my current sub with their XXX, adding the Syn1 to power it and adding a 485 in place of my current sub off of CH 5&6 of the syn6. i know the Syn6 and the Syn4 are fairly efficient, but i think that Syn1 is going to pull some amps.
Old    Go Big (mc4life)      Join Date: Feb 2009       03-31-2009, 1:41 PM Reply   
optima
Old    Sam (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-31-2009, 1:53 PM Reply   
Bruce, I belive the syn amps are all class H...if so very effecient when compared to class AB and in some capacities surpassing effeciency of class D.

Tim obviously took all that in consideration during the engineering phase.
Old    murph (smuurph84)      Join Date: Oct 2008       03-31-2009, 2:45 PM Reply   
Is there a way to calculate roughly how long a battery will last? some kind of formula or something? I tried searching the boards but no luck(a ton of stuff on batteries though). I guess the best way would be to test my system once I have it completed!

(Message edited by smuurph84 on March 31, 2009)
Old    Jarrod Corby (showmedonttellme)      Join Date: Mar 2008       03-31-2009, 4:07 PM Reply   
I just buy the cheapies ($75-$100)and replace them every two years! I was told by my stereo guy (Warlocks) a battery can only be 'run-down' so many times. Lets say an average battery can do that 50 times while you're parked on shore before its dead. I'd like to see G, Hammond and the other big-hitters on this site weigh-in, but I don't think Kinetik/Optima last longer(or can handle more run-downs if you will). Maybe they are worth it because they dont run down as quick though....?

I only have two batts and my stereo is average compared to a lot of the monster systems on this site. What do the fellas with the battery 'banks' (i.e. more than 3) think?

Worth it to pay 3 or 4 hundy?
Old    Chucktronics...Ryan (chucktronics)      Join Date: Nov 2007       03-31-2009, 11:18 PM Reply   
Batteries seem to be very controversial as to what is the right brand and/or style.

The choice of battery needs to be classified on how much effort the customer or owner wants to do to maintain them/abuse them. There are precautions that are necessary when using some of the high performance batteries: hawker(which is stinger and odyssey) kinetic, or other sealed /gel style batteries.With typical lead acid batteries you may boil them off a little but they have the ability to gas the heat generated by charging them as opposed to the others mentioned above.This being the biggest difference besides not allowing the voltage to drop over the winter or other down time .

I personally like to use standard batteries and the aid of "batcap" or "kinetic" power cells to keep the speed of charge and discharge fast enough for the demand of the system. This is a cheaper way with the same performance result without the extreme cost. The advantage of some of the batts listed above is they have a faster rate of charge and discharge unlike typical deka,interstate,optima etc. thus the reason to still have the power cells.

personally I run 6 volt batteries along with batcap 2000(multiple) to help increase my speed of discharge for the system.The reason for 6 volts is one step further in longevity(not run time but life span)the lead plates are typically twice as thick as 12 volts therefore allowing more abuse before deteriorated performance

$.02 the charging methods are just as important regardless of battery type
Old    Sam (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       04-01-2009, 7:10 AM Reply   
Jarrod, this is another great reason to use 6 volt batts, they can be "run down" or cycled down very "deep" many mreo times thatn a similar sized 12 volt batt.

"personally I run 6 volt batteries along with batcap 2000(multiple) to help increase my speed of discharge for the system.The reason for 6 volts is one step further in longevity(not run time but life span)the lead plates are typically twice as thick as 12 volts therefore allowing more abuse before deteriorated performance"


Bottom line they last much longer. I've had a pair going on almost 5 years now. Still charge to near 100% ( 12.6 volts). My systems have ranged from 2000-3000 RMS over the years..
Old     (freshtracks)      Join Date: Feb 2006       04-01-2009, 12:07 PM Reply   
sam, what brand of 6v do you recommend?

also, if had 3 Odyssey 1700's, how many 6v would i need? thx

(Message edited by FreshTracks on April 01, 2009)
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       04-01-2009, 1:58 PM Reply   
The problem with the 6v batteries is that you have to wire them in series to work with our 12v systems. Wiring them in series DOES NOT increase amp hours, amp hours stays the same. So 2 100 ah 6v batteries wired in series to achieve 12v will still have 100 ah. So 2 12v 100 amp hour batteries wired in parallel will give you 200 ah.

12 volt batteries wired in parallel will still give you 12 volts but will increase the ah to whatever the ratings on the batteries are.

For this reason I wouldn't use 6v batteries.

(Message edited by 05mobiuslsv on April 01, 2009)
Old    Terry H. (x45er)      Join Date: Nov 2007       04-01-2009, 8:35 PM Reply   
Sam - What you are refering to as longevity is called cycle life. This is determined by the mass of the plate (PbO2 paste). The thickness of the plate, like wire guage, is sized for current draw. The physical size of the plate is capacity.

Back to cycle life....during a discharge the plate will "shed" material close to the top first. Ohms law like you said above. This area is closer to the straps which series the cells together. I bring this up because bringing a battery down to 20%DOD and then recharging causes excessive wear at the top of the plate reducing life....better to go all the way down to 100%DOD. The battery will last longer.

The difference between the starting battery and a deep cycle is the negetive plate. It is treated to withstand discharging below 1.75VPC. This is where most of the shedding occurs.

As far as which battery to use......capacity and cycle life.
Old    chad hall (chall8143)      Join Date: Sep 2008       04-01-2009, 9:10 PM Reply   
"can generally run for 4-5hrs at full or near full volume."


I may sound old. Ok I am sounding like an old man. Why would you need to have it so loud for so long? I'm not bagging on you. Just wondering is all.
Old    Chucktronics...Ryan (chucktronics)      Join Date: Nov 2007       04-01-2009, 10:37 PM Reply   
I understand that your not going to add your amp hour together with (2) 6 volts in series,but thats not needed as most of the 6 volts that you would use have higher rating as Terry mentioned above based on plate size.The 6 volts I run are 232 ah ,again (2) 100ah 12 volts are roughly the same,no loss .

therefore the only down side is the jumper between to put them in series .
Old    Sam (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       04-02-2009, 6:12 AM Reply   
My 6v have 225 amp hours ( I think that's a bit conservative). Most 6 v battt's haev very high amp hours...they are IMO the ultimate deep cycle batt. There is a reason why alot of RV'ers use them.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       04-02-2009, 10:34 AM Reply   
You have to have at least two batteries no matter what in both situations. The 6v are slightly less $$ but are wet acid and have to be installed vertically and maintained. I guess if someone has the room they would be a good option. 2 110 amp 12v batteries can be had for about $180 a piece and be mounted in any position besides upside down. This leaves a solution for everyone.

(Message edited by 05mobiuslsv on April 02, 2009)
Old    Sam (wake1823)      Join Date: Dec 2005       04-02-2009, 12:33 PM Reply   
the t-105 have the same footprint as a group 34 deep clcyle batt, just a hair taller, and you'll get 225 amp/hr with 2 6 votls as opposed to 110 with two 12 v. one t-105 will run around $140-150 per batt with the core charge.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       04-02-2009, 1:42 PM Reply   
The 12v I was talking about are group 31 with 110 ah a piece giving you 220 ah with 2 12v batteries.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       04-02-2009, 2:01 PM Reply   
Sam, they might have close to the same footprint but are about 3 inches taller and 40 pounds heavier.

I think it is safe to say that there a couple good options depending on your system, space and money. If you have the room and don't mind maintaining the batteries it is hard to beat Golf cart batteries. A lot of people don't like having to deal with them though. In that case AGM's are great.

I want to see someone throw down about six Golf cart 6V AGM's and have a 20 AH rating of around 600. You could get some play time out of that system.
Old    Javony (javony)      Join Date: Oct 2006       04-02-2009, 2:57 PM Reply   
I'm personally running 4 golf cart batteries right now for my system and was thinking about adding another 2. I'm running Kicker amps (1500.1, 2 650.4's and a 350.2) and I can play it for about 4-5 hours without starting the boat and it never cuts out.
Old    Chucktronics...Ryan (chucktronics)      Join Date: Nov 2007       04-02-2009, 4:10 PM Reply   
I was not trying to make it seem as if the 6 volts were better than 12 volts ,only point out the pros and cons of either. Both have their advantages and disadvantages pending the system load and the care the customer is willing to give

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