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Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-17-2009, 11:35 AM Reply   
Can anyone measure from the rams on their switchblade to the edge of the wakeplate? I am looking at an enzo with a switchblade and I want to see if I can put a hydraulic wakeplate on with two rams on the far outsides of the plate. I know the BTT plate is wider and longer. Does anyone have those dimensions? I love tinkering!
Duffy
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-17-2009, 1:25 PM Reply   
Here is what switchblade has sent me.

I am at the Austin show and took a moment to look at the Enzo plate. Our mounting plate is 10" wide and I believe the wake plate is 12" wide. That really does not leave enough room to move the acutators outboard of the mount. There is though the possibility to fabricate a mount that will allow the actuators to mount to the plate. It could be as simple as a z bracket bolted to the plate. The other possibility is drilling and tapping our mount for the top of the actuators. I do not have the necessary tools at the show to determine if they will fit over the gussets, but we would not have a problem with you doing that as far as the warranty is concerned.

I am hearing a lot about the goofy side of the Enzo not working without making a prop rotation change. Unfortunetly I do not have a solution at this time.
Old    BJ Hipskind (crazyhippy)      Join Date: Apr 2008       01-18-2009, 8:08 PM Reply   
How about going old school...

Can do a rotating bar, w/ fixed (turnbuckle adjustable) length support bars. And then do an actuator on another arm to cause the motion.

Lets try pics.
This shot from directly behind shows the general layout on flatbottoms. The bar across the top rotates and moves the support rods. This boat has a foot pedal that controls this action. (special seal, 1/2way out on the port side of the boat)
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This Shot is a bit better @ showing the actual working mechanism, angles and such. Ignore the fact that it's a v-bottom, the idea is the same.
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You can Then run a cylinder off to the side, or go through the hull and mount it inside.
Rex Marine Has the hardware on their website http://www.rexmar.com/page138.html

The turnbuckles should clear the SB mechanism, where the rams might not.

Should get the gears turning if nothing else.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-18-2009, 9:43 PM Reply   
How much throw do they have? I guess I really don't understand. Pretty crazy boats.

Duffy
Old    Drew Danielo (ollies_drew)      Join Date: Jan 2008       01-19-2009, 11:17 AM Reply   
I know I was told that if I get a switchblade they can't do a Bennet trim tab also. I don't know any dimisions but That is what I heard from the centurion Factory. Not saying can't be done.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-19-2009, 11:24 AM Reply   
I've been talking back and forth with switchblade, and they and I have come to the conclusion that it can. If I end up getting an enzo or avalanche I will try it. You couldn't get the stock bennett trim tab from centurion, it would need to have two rams on the far outside of the plate. It could be awesome, but it could also do nothing. It will be a fun experiment. It should be a super easy install after I either make brackets or if it does fit. My local boat shop said they would do it. How's the new phase five carbon board? They are claiming 2x faster.
Old    Drew Danielo (ollies_drew)      Join Date: Jan 2008       01-19-2009, 11:30 AM Reply   
That would be a cool project to see if it works.
As for the Board The claim is very True. I am constantly slowing mine down after every trick so I stay off the boat.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-19-2009, 12:14 PM Reply   
If it works(lets hope), it would be an relatively inexpensive add on or upgrade that anyone with a switchblade can do, it might also make it so you don't need the hydraulic plate all the way down on an enzo to clean the goofy wake. I think they might work together to really clean and build both waves. That board is sweet, I would love to add it to my quiver.
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       01-19-2009, 2:04 PM Reply   
Hey Drew I have a 04 avalanche and was wondering how i should set my wake plate, it is a manuel adjustment one, while I am surfing. Should I be adjusting it all the way down?? It only moves up and down about 1 inch. thanks
Old    Drew Danielo (ollies_drew)      Join Date: Jan 2008       01-19-2009, 2:24 PM Reply   
Anthony I have never moved mine. It is the manuel one as well and I have always just left it alone. However I do have the switchblade on my boat now. with the switchblade there is no need to adjust that wake plate. There are some guys on here that Have moved it. You might want to start a thread and ask even if they have the Bennet tab ask if there running it up or down.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-19-2009, 3:35 PM Reply   
I don't know if it's as big of a deal on an avalanche as it is on the enzo. It seems people can build clean waves on both sides with the avalanche. A hydraulic bennet trim tab would help you clean and adjust the wave. Wakedoc and others just use the BTT to make their goofy wave clean on their 24 foot enzos. My idea is find a way to use both the BTT and the switchblade.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-19-2009, 7:17 PM Reply   
Anthony, my freinds have an Avy with a MTT. They surf all the time and set the MTT as far down as possible. The BTT goes down a lot more. The MTT just doens't have enough travel for surfing.

On my Enzo the wake is better with the MTT down as far as I can set it.
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       01-20-2009, 7:05 AM Reply   
Thanks, Drew, Duffy and Show. Does anyone have a idea how to weigh the goofy side when the avy has that walk thru transom. (my wife made me get that model, now I wish I had the c-4.) Are there any bags that would work in this somewhat skinny area better then others?
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-20-2009, 4:00 PM Reply   
We need to get duckdiver online here to answer. He's got an Avy with a walk through.

What we did at the 2007 Nationals was put a 750 behind the driver, two 400s in the walk through and laying over the 750, then of course filled the starboard ballast.

Here are Avy pics from the 2008 Nationals. This boat was a 22004 but I think is a C4.
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Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-20-2009, 6:18 PM Reply   
What did you have for the starboard ballast? Just stock? That avy is leaning crazy!
Old    Rob (wakesurf_ohio)      Join Date: Jun 2007       01-20-2009, 6:22 PM Reply   
I believe its an enzo sac with a 750 sac on the bench seat.. but not positive
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-20-2009, 7:09 PM Reply   
Def an Enzo sac. Not sure about the 750.


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Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-20-2009, 8:49 PM Reply   
Did both boats have a Bennett trim tab?
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-21-2009, 6:25 PM Reply   
The Red didn't. Not sure about the yellow.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-22-2009, 10:41 AM Reply   
So it's official! Switchblade says this combo switchblade Bennett Trim tab will work, and they outline what is needed for the install. Here is what they sent me.
Okay, I have it all together now.

The auto version will work if with the Bennett Wake plate with the following
modifications:

1. The Bennett actuator or actuators(depends on model) moved to the side and another actuator added(if needed), then (slight modification to wakeplate along trailing edge to allow mount, although if you bolt through the bottom of the plate with a flat head machine screw countersunk you should be fine).
2. SB mounting needs to be drilled and tapped for top of actuator(hyrdaulic rams).
3. Gusset on SB will need to be modified slightly to clear actuator. I can provide a drawing.

Sounds awesome, and I asked for a drawing!
Old    Andrew Taft (taft)      Join Date: Jul 2006       01-22-2009, 10:57 AM Reply   
That's great news. I can't wait to hear about peoples results with this. Anyone able to estimate the cost of this process?

I looked at Bennett's website, and it looked like the trim tabs are ridiculously expensive for a piece of metal that can move. Maybe I looked at the wrong one? It was around $700
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-22-2009, 11:03 AM Reply   
Well thats for two tabs, last time I checked a new bennett or lenco wakeplate(one tab) was around 400. Call them and ask for one. You can score them off ebay alot of times for super cheap. If you already have a bennett trim tab, this would be a mostly simple fix.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-22-2009, 1:09 PM Reply   
Here is a drawing they sent me, that shows the amount of material that needs to be removed from the gusset to fit the rams. Also for the next two weeks they are selling the fully auto polished with centurion logo for $3,290. Upload
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-23-2009, 10:46 PM Reply   
I got another switchblade drawing from kevin-
Let me start with the disclaimers:

1. THIS HAS NOT BEEN TESTED, NOR DO WE MAKE ANY CLAIMS ABOUT THE
WAVE CREATED.

2. The vertical location (over 3.75" above wake plate) of the
Switchblade is critical to clear everything.

3. We assume no liability for the installation.

4. We do not provide the second Bennett actuator.

5. Modification of Switchblade gussets is responsibility of
customer and must be within cut lines provided (upon request).

6. The information provided is to be used as a guideline only.
This is not a fully engineered concept and has not been assembled to determine correctness.



With that said, it does appear that it is possible to use the Bennett Wake Plate with the Switchblade with some fairly simple modifications. I request anyone doing so contact me beforehand.



Kevin Belcher
Upload
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-24-2009, 7:13 AM Reply   
What do you expect to achieve and how do you think this hardware would do it? What physical properties do you expect to leverage?
Old    Joe B (sailing216)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-24-2009, 7:51 AM Reply   
If you wait till the spring, you'll be able to see what the benefits are of the SB and much larger extended fixed wakeplate on the Avy. Much cheaper.

DjJames did it on his Elite V.

I think it funnels the thrust more so it's not as spread out and thus more condensed water on top of the rooster tail meaning a taller wave when it finally falls. My guess anyways. Fairly cheap experiment.

From the pics, you'd have to re-drill my electrical runs in the transom to mount the actuators. I'd would probably go a double trim setup before leaving holes in my transom. Kinda of like what Show is going to do this spring.

Wait it out and we'll have pics in a few months of our experiments.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-24-2009, 8:15 AM Reply   
Hmmmm....
I don't think it would funnel, but setting the trim tab down would increase the pressure at the trim tab and so the water might jet out from under the trim tab with more force or higher speed. So the flow would go long not high.

I'm not sure I understand why the longer trim tab works for James, but I like what I see in his pictures. I have two ideas of why extending the fixed tab helps. The first is along the lines of higher pressure as above. The SB directs thrust upward. Some of the redirected water hits the extended TT. That water is under higher pressure and therefore jets out at a higher speed. The second is more about laminar flow, something I know little about. By extending the tab turbulent water has more surface area to sort of calm down and then exit the trailing edge of the TT without jumping up and spitting.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-24-2009, 10:00 AM Reply   
The hydraulic trim tab-switchblade combo is only (hopefully) going to help the goofy wave on 230 and 240 Enzos. For some reason the only clean goofy waves can be made are boats with a hydraulic trim tab(wakeoutlaws sweet enzo), and if you have a switchblade, the goofy wave sucks(excludiing surf right boats). The enzo has a manual or fixed wakeplate(short) combo with the switchblade, and I think or at least my concept is to have both a hydraulic wakeplate and a switchblade could fix this. The folks over at switchblade say everything should work together and hopefully this would work! I've been behind a few boats that the hydraulic wakeplate is the only way to divert the prop wash or jet, down and away from the goofy wave. You can watch the propwash go too high and it actually looks like it rolls over the face of the wave! A longer wakeplate could also divert or force the prop wash down. This concept should however push the nose of the boat down and make the wave smaller, but smaller is better than terrible!
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-24-2009, 10:21 AM Reply   
I also want to say that this make work and it could be awesome, but it might also do basically nothing. But it should be a pretty cheap add on. You can really find steals on trim tabs on ebay. I like the lenco tabs, because you don't need to run hydraulic lines. Just a small positive and negative wire through the transom, you could even use the same holes where the switchblade goes through your transom.
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       01-26-2009, 1:16 PM Reply   
Thanks Show, I have had mine leaning like that one at worlds, but only on the port side. Sounds like I am going to have to stack my sacks. I really dont want to use lead. Cant wait to get out and try it. Have to wait until April since it is below freezing here in the PNW, and boat tucked away for winter. But I do appreciate the help.
Old     (packrat)      Join Date: Mar 2005       01-28-2009, 6:07 PM Reply   
Another thing that might be valuable with having both the Bennett and Switchblade is that sometimes the Switchblade might not be on the boat for some reason and still having the Bennett would still allow for a good wake.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-28-2009, 6:36 PM Reply   
What about tabs on the side like Sanger is doing with a SB? Get SB giving down force, tabs giving lean...
Old     (oldwakedude)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-28-2009, 7:28 PM Reply   
couple of notes on the previous thread.

Duffy, great pics. Note that the Bennett actuators in your pics are the short ones three rings, regular units have four. So anyone building from scratch on ebay (great for cheap parts) need to keep that in mind.

As for the Sanger idea, I am currently working that idea, tried two tabs (14") on both sides of the manual tab. Not really the results I was looking for (lot of prop wash). In the process of replacing the manual tab with a hydraulic unit (I like the look of wake docs goofy wake). Parts are in the mail, so once that is complete I'll see if the Sanger idea has merit to continue exploring, still have the 14x11s may change them out for 33x8 plates to cover the complete transom.

I the pics above of the old Inboards, the reason they had a rotating rod was that they were manually activated (see the through hull connection) and had a lot of turnbuckles to support and shape the plate (high speed). With the new hydraulic systems and wakesurf speeds don't need all that complication.

Anybody know why the Enzo Bennett trim tab uses two actuators, the force calcs don't indicate it is necessary.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-28-2009, 8:23 PM Reply   
I really think that if I find a Enzo or an Avy I will do this combo. I will prob end up using lenco rams, they have a smaller diameter ram and way way easy to install.

The whole Sanger idea is neat, but I think it will only help to clean and maybe enchance the wave that is already made with water ballast.
Old     (oldwakedude)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-29-2009, 6:47 PM Reply   
Agree, my experience has shown that trim tabs are only that, wake trimming devices, anyone who calls them a wake enhancement device does not understand the function of a trim tab and the theory of wake generation.

Lenco, Insta-trim or Bennett all seem to have good points and less good (don't think any of them really have any bad points), I think it just comes down to personal preference and what you can get the best deal on.

It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has the sanger setup and what performance advantages it brings.
Old    Dennis (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       01-29-2009, 9:37 PM Reply   
Hey Old,
I do not own a Sanger with the trim tabs, but I have spent time with a V237 with the dual trim tabs. We used the boat at a contest in So Cal. The tabs in themselves won't make a surf boat. They do however allow for a great amount of fine tuning. There is no replacing weight in the back of any surf boat. We did not require any front ballast which saves the boat moving excess weight. The Sanger without the tabs required the front ballast full (600#) and about 1250# in the rear locker. The tabs allowed us to eliminate the 600# in front. We were able to soften the steepness of the wake for the Skim riders if they so desired by a small tab movement. The tabs also allow a fully loaded boat setup for surfing with weight on one side only, to plane and drive flat on the surface with no list. This allows the boat to get from the riding spot to dock quickly if needed. I don't know if they will help shape or cleanup an otherwise bad wake. The Sanger is great with or without the tabs. Just more versatile with them.
Old     (oldwakedude)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-30-2009, 4:08 PM Reply   
Dennis,

I assume you are talking about the competition at Castaic, which is where I first saw the sanger setup (pics, I was out of town). They are nice for trimming the boat out during the run, when we take the Enzo out with just the Enzo sac full it makes it easy to trim the boat and not look like we are sinking. The ultimate goal would be to utilize the tabs to switch from regular to goofy with a fully ballasted boat, surfable wakes not competition quality, for when I have a mixed group (regular and goofy). Minor progress so far, but I know I need the hydraulic center tab.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-30-2009, 4:18 PM Reply   
Old, I don't think that trim tabs alone will provide the change needed to shift from side to side to make surfing possible on both wakes with a quick flip of a switch.

I have my own ideas and plan to take the trim tab concept one or two steps further, if not further then more amusing.

(Message edited by Bigshow on January 30, 2009)
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-30-2009, 4:34 PM Reply   
I will do my whole wakeplate-switchblade combo this spring and let everyone know how it goes. I plan on doing a detail of the both surf wakes and try to measure length and width.
Old    Dennis (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       01-30-2009, 5:50 PM Reply   
I don't know about the Enzo but on the Sanger the center movable tab was no help. The fully ballasted boat and try to change sides with tabs only is something we did not try. The tabs tended to push the nose down not just raise the side as would be needed. This is the reason that we did not need any ballast in the front. A better idea would be to have the tab midship and lift the side not push the nose down. But that would not be a simple install.
Old    Kevin Belcher (switchbladewake)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-31-2009, 3:44 PM Reply   
Here is a thought on the wake plate and pushing one side down. What about an extended wakeplate with two actuators independently operated. Flex the plate down on the port side to push down the stbd side for goofy and vice versa. Not sure you could get enough force, but it would be cool to try.
Old     (oldwakedude)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-31-2009, 5:03 PM Reply   
I did see tabs at one time that were similar to what kevin is describing. It was basically setup like the Enzo bennett tab split down the middle. Never heard anything about how it performed. My own effort was similar with the tabs on both sides of the wake plate. While they did have some effect on the goofy wake, I realized with the Enzo I needed the Center hydraulic tab to control the prop wash on the goofy side. I am thinking that mounting the tabs out further on each side might have a better effect. First step will be to replace the wake plate with a hydraulic tab (12x12), then maybe I'll try modifying the trim tabs. See what bigshow comes up with.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-31-2009, 10:53 PM Reply   
Kevin,
I looked at a enzo at the spokane boat show, too bad you weren't there(or switchblade). All the boats just had the manual wakeplate. I wonder if instead of flexing the plate, you could just have two seperate wake plates that could move together or independently? The enzo is a great looking boat! Sorry Dennis no Sangers!
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-01-2009, 5:44 AM Reply   
Kevin, I made a cheap version of you flexible trim tab system last summer. I bolted shapes to the bottom of my trim tab. Note I don't have a SB. The results were a little disappointing, I found ways to make the spray worse.

You’re close to Ohio, Illinois right? It would be great to see you at Nationals this summer in Dayton.
Old    Dennis (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       02-01-2009, 1:38 PM Reply   
Duffy,
How far are you from the Utah show? I heard that Scott was going to be there with Sequoia Motor Sports a new Sanger dealer.
Old    Kevin Belcher (switchbladewake)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-01-2009, 2:06 PM Reply   
Show, unfortunately the split plate is going to cause spray from the pressure under one side spilling out to the other.

Nationals in Dayton is a definite possibility. I am in the process of putting together the Switchblade DIY tour with Centurion in which I we put as many people countrywide on the boat and behind the boat seeing the benefits of the Switchblade. I will be posting as the tour comes together to give clubs, schools, and the dealers the chance to get involved. Keep watching for it.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-01-2009, 2:11 PM Reply   
That's not how I did it, regardless...didn't work out well.

I have some materials that I've been preparing for Nationals. I have your contact information and should have it to you soon.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       03-07-2009, 9:59 PM Reply   
Rumor has it, DJ James or James is trying this as we speak! Can't wait to see if he can run a higher switchblade setting and still calm the prop wash! I will be hopefully trying this on my new boat! Gotta love surfin behind a boat in the middle of North Idaho}
Old    Andrew Taft (taft)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-07-2009, 10:57 PM Reply   
Are you any closer on your boat pick yet Duffy?
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       03-07-2009, 11:03 PM Reply   
Yeah I found a sweet deal on a 03 Centurion Avalanche C4. I put an offer on it and I will know tomorrow. I plan on custom enzo sacs first, then better tower speakers, then the switchblade! Should be a fun summer
Old    Sixx (sixx352)      Join Date: Sep 2008       03-14-2009, 6:37 PM Reply   
Hey Duffy,

Let me know how that turns out for you. I would like to head up there and check that out when you get it all dialed in.

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