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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2009, 3:43 PM Reply   
My 3 o'clock cancelled, so I had way too much time on my hands! :-)

I've wanted to build a hollow board and have looked at making a Hollow Wooden but ran screaming from the room at the thought of e.wood.

So, my concept, is to use a lost foam method to construct the core. Apply caron around the perimeter to form a frame. Laminate two layers of 4 oz to the bottom and construct some support pads under the feet. Then apply a release agent to the deck and laminate a skin of sorts, again 2 layers of 4 oz, that I remove and reattach. THEN using Xylene or something, dissolved the foam. Once the foam is gone, I would attach the deck.

In theory, I should be able to see through the middle of the board down to the water. I wonder what aerial photos would look like? :-)

My impressive artistic rendering. :-)

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Old    Kona (konaking)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-10-2009, 5:10 PM Reply   
"My 3 o'clock cancelled, so I had way too much time on my hands!"

Thats what I like about you SD always thinking.
Hows the snowboarding out there? Skiing is off the hook right now.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2009, 5:47 PM Reply   
The snow is really thin...rocks still showing through in spots. We are supposed to get some more rain/snow this week, hopefully it will get better!
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-10-2009, 6:07 PM Reply   
Jeff, I am beginning to worry about you. I think you may need some help...

www.changethatsrightnow.com/problem_detail.asp?SDID=6227:1928
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2009, 6:15 PM Reply   
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!! No!!! Take it away!!! Wood is EVILLLLLLLLLL!!!

That is hilarious, Chris. :-)
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-10-2009, 6:31 PM Reply   
I guess I know now why you don't own a Sanger
Old    Phil Jakubowski (65sanford)      Join Date: Feb 2007       02-10-2009, 7:01 PM Reply   
I did the one on one at change things right now and now I am afraid of plastic rather than wood--Jeff, I wish I had a 3 o'clock cancellation--this new project is even more interesting than the others, please keep us posted on the progress
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2009, 7:40 PM Reply   
LOLOLOL! Phil, that's so funny. Zero sum net gain...so you basically just trade phobias with the one on one. :-) Can we pick what we trade for? I want to be terrified of WORK! :-)

I want revisit the lost foam method. For folks familiar with metal casting, the process is to shape a plu in EPS, then bury that in green sand and pour molten metal in to the cavity that is occupied by the foam. The molten metal melts the foam and you end up with a duplicate of the plug, in metal, after it cools.

I just want to dissolve the foam after I have laminated the the outside.

I read a report done by a few high school students that sought to find a way to rid landfills of EPS. They tested several substances and found that Xylene was the fastest and most effective.

My test materials, xylene, piece of EPS and a bucket. :-)

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2009, 7:42 PM Reply   
Foam in the bucket with some xylene. You can see the bubbles forming from the chemical reaction.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2009, 7:43 PM Reply   
About 90 seconds later - gone.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2009, 7:47 PM Reply   
Once I have the board shaped and laminated, I'll rip as much of the EPS out as I can and then, saturate the rest with Xylene until it's dissolved. One of the issues will be to insure that the blank is sealed so that none of the epoxy gets into the EPS. Not quite sure how I'm going to do that yet.

The blank roughly shaped.

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Old    Kona (konaking)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-11-2009, 5:14 AM Reply   
Jeff you must have a garage full of foam ?????
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-11-2009, 8:26 AM Reply   
Kona, you say that like it's an anomaly. Are you suggesting that not everyone has a garage full of foam?! :-)
Old    Kona (konaking)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-11-2009, 9:11 AM Reply   
I have my share but I think you could out do me.
Like I have said before to bad we are not neighbors :-)
Old    jan (bartj)      Join Date: Oct 2007       02-11-2009, 11:58 AM Reply   
i'm not 100% sure that i understand the plan, but can't you just bag a pp sheet between the foam and the glass?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-11-2009, 12:09 PM Reply   
Kona, can you imagine how many times the REST of the neighbors would call law enforcement, on us, if we were neighbors? :-)

Hey jan, thanks for the suggestion and following along. On the top, most likely. I'll either apply wax and PVA or a peel ply as you suggest. On the bottom though, I need the lamination to adhere to the CF rails and also to any structural supports/cross braces. I believe that I can tape off those areas I don't want to "demold" more accurately for the PVA than trying to fit a trimmed piece of peel ply.

On the top, like you suggest, a large piece of peel ply or maybe even a sheet of polyethelene is no doubt the easiest and cheapest solution.

At least that's my thought as of now. :-)
Old    jan (bartj)      Join Date: Oct 2007       02-11-2009, 12:34 PM Reply   
maybe just finding some pe tape to fix that sheet to the deck. the tape can be melted together with the core then :-)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-11-2009, 12:50 PM Reply   
The way that I intend to do this, is after the rails and bottom, as well as, vertical structural members are in place, I will cover the deck with "something" let's assume clear PE at this point. Then laminate the deck. Once that is cured, I'll remove the deck and melt the interior foam. Once the foam is cleaned out, I'll epoxy the deck onto the rails and foot supports.

The PE should just peel off the deck and foam when the deck is cured. (fingers crossed! :-) )
Old    jan (bartj)      Join Date: Oct 2007       02-11-2009, 1:54 PM Reply   
ha! :-)
Old    Phil Jakubowski (65sanford)      Join Date: Feb 2007       02-11-2009, 7:25 PM Reply   
I can't wait to see the results--do you stay up at night coming up with these ideas for builds? Just curious--are you thinking of the next build already?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-11-2009, 7:41 PM Reply   
I think I have a bunch of ideas milling about at any time. I like to have the build dissected in my mind, before starting. I really want to build a mold and play with that.

We'll see. :-)

I am making the structural supports from a concept used by Dave Vernor. It is a a carbon/coremat/carbon composite.

Coremat is exceptionally light. It is synthetic fiber embedded with microspheres. Once the composite is cured, I will cut the parts out and fit to the blank before finishing the shaping.

I want the braces to connect with the rail carbon. I am concerned with shaping the braces, so I intend to basically have the core fully shaped before inserting the braces.

The materials for making the brace composite.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-11-2009, 7:44 PM Reply   
The pieces cut, but not wetted out. The stack, from the bottom up is polyethelene bleeder, perforated peel ply, cf/coremat/cf, then the same stack in reverse order.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-11-2009, 7:51 PM Reply   
This picture shows the blank and the two lines where I will place the braces. My plan is to shape the blank. Cut the blank into three pieces and then cut the shape of the cross-section out of the composite brace material. Lastly, I'll lightly glue the blank and braces back together.

The braces are to go directly under the feet, I used the heel dents to mark the location.

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Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-12-2009, 5:06 AM Reply   
how about hollow carbon rods as supports???
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-12-2009, 5:36 AM Reply   
Tubes would definately work to tie the frame rails together. I've been wanting to test this idea of Dave's for a little while now and this seemed to be the perfect opportunity.

The composite cured and ready to cut.

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Old    James Albertoni (slimjim44)      Join Date: Feb 2009       02-12-2009, 9:37 AM Reply   
Seems like an awful lot of time on your hands for tax season. I love your creativity. A see through board will be awesome!
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-12-2009, 12:11 PM Reply   
You're new aren't you, James? :-) To your benefit, my employees say the same thing! :-) Todd "brawler" G cliams I'm retired. :-)

Notwithstanding that, thanks for the props. My son's buddy had a wakeboard that was an aluminum frame with a plexiglass bottom. That's the insipration, although I want this board to be hollow. I'm concerned with this board leaking :-) I'll have to do a test panel to see if two layers of laminated glass is waterproof, I may need to sandwich something in between.
Old    Andrew Taft (taft)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-12-2009, 12:33 PM Reply   
Watch the fishies while surfing. Awwwwwesome
Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-12-2009, 1:05 PM Reply   
unless you have doodoo brown water to ride on
Old    dtw. (notsobueno)      Join Date: Dec 2004       02-12-2009, 1:58 PM Reply   
good for locating dead bodies too
Old    Daniel (cowwboy)      Join Date: Jul 2008       02-12-2009, 3:00 PM Reply   
DTW thats hilarious but oh so true at some of our local lakes. Seems every summer they find a body or two floating in the lake.
Like one of my buddy's said they make for great sliders.

Jeff I can't wait to see it finished.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-12-2009, 8:01 PM Reply   
You guys are funny. I see dead people (through my board :-) ). Thanks cowwboy, I'm looking forward to riding it too.

I finished shaping the blank. Rails and bottom concave.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-12-2009, 8:04 PM Reply   
Next I hacked the board in thirds. :-) I'll sandwich the braces between the foam and hopefully the will line up with the feet placements.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-12-2009, 8:05 PM Reply   
I started cutting the rear brace, it will need a little hand fitting, but it's close.

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Old    James Albertoni (slimjim44)      Join Date: Feb 2009       02-13-2009, 9:24 AM Reply   
Surfdad, I haven't posted a lot here but I've read a bunch of your stuff on the tigeowners website. My wife is a CPA and I am basically single until April 15th, which happens to be her birthday.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-13-2009, 9:38 AM Reply   
Fellow Tige owner!

I can remember the good 'ole days when I first entered public practice. I was an employee at a huge firm and at that time they "required" (meaning your review and subsequent raise was dependent upon it :-) ) we work a minimum of 80 hour weeks during tax season, but they would reduce our hourly rate after 60 hours because we were less efficient. :-) We were considered exempt from wage an hour laws at that time, as professionals. :-)

Life is too short, in my opinion. I haven't done OT during tax season in over 10 years. I like to irritate some of my colleagues by calling them from the top of Lincoln at Sugar Bowl over the weekend and say: I'm about to take a run down Lincoln, what are you up to? Taxes? Really? :-)

I can't type the responses I normally get, here on WW.com.
Old    dtw. (notsobueno)      Join Date: Dec 2004       02-13-2009, 10:24 AM Reply   
I'm thinking SD should do all our taxes then.

I'll take my return in foam. And glass.
Old    James Albertoni (slimjim44)      Join Date: Feb 2009       02-13-2009, 2:01 PM Reply   
My wife works for a big company with a smaller tax department. She only has to work 55-60 hours per week during tax season (overtime is built into the salary). My mom works for a CPA, she only has to work 40 hours per week during tax season. Add that together and that means that I have no idea what taxes are or what they are about...all I know is I get a check in the spring.

We just started surfin this past summer with stock ballast, two 10 year old girls (sisters), two hundred pound women (wife and mother in law), and one big guy (200+) on the boat at a time while the other surfs. Just picked up a 550# sac and a pump so hopefully we will be getting much better.

(Message edited by slimjim44 on February 13, 2009)

(Message edited by slimjim44 on February 13, 2009)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-13-2009, 8:17 PM Reply   
That's funny James. :-) I'm sure you'll all improve after thos season.

I glued up the reinforcements, to the core and then I got the tail and mid-section attached. Tomorrow the nose. :-)

I used 5 min epoxy and only "tacked" it along the top and in the very center of the bottom.

I will need to "mill" the top to inset the foot pads and so I'll most likely plane the epoxy and attached EPS away...well at least that's the plan. :-)

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-14-2009, 5:48 AM Reply   
All glued up.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-14-2009, 5:55 AM Reply   
The next step is probably more complicated than it needs to be, but it's the best I can do! :-)

I am going to make the perimeter frame via a double cutlap (top and bottom). The footpads, however, will be about 4mm thick and would stand proud on the deck, so I need to shave an indentation where the footpads will go across the deck. I want some support of the footpads on the perimeter frame and I thought it would be the strongest and easiest if the footpads rested on top of the perimeter frame. In order to keep everything flush, that means I need to mill the indentation all the way out through the rails and into the area where the cutlap will be.

This picture/drawing gives an idea of the cutlap, foot pads and also where the board will be transparent.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-14-2009, 6:00 AM Reply   
My wonderfully artistic rendering! :-) I'm trying to show how I will need to mill the deck to insure alingment of the footpads and deck. I may attempt to do the footpads strictly with several layers of 9 oz e-glass to give as much transparency as possible.

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Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-14-2009, 6:09 AM Reply   
how about a 6 oz. carbon support every 6 to 8 ".
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-14-2009, 6:20 AM Reply   
Certainly an option...might be a cool look too. :-)

The "design princple" I'm testing, if you'll give me a TON of leeway, is monocoque construction. I'm trying to determine how much I can transfer to the skin while allowing the board to be still be ridden AND not weigh a ton.

My theory is that we have a ton of stress along the rails and under the feet, almost none at the nose and only marginally in between.

The Hydroepic boards used your concept brewkettle, it reminded me of a skeleton frame. They used an aluminum honeycomb sandwiched between 9oz carbon to stiffen the deck and then the skeleton under that.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-14-2009, 6:23 AM Reply   
I found a picture! This is how the Hydroepic's internal frame was constructed.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-14-2009, 4:05 PM Reply   
I am doing cutlaps so that my frame is symetrical. The way I do cutlaps is to mark where I want the lap to end with my super super lap marking tool. :-)

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-14-2009, 4:06 PM Reply   
The mark isn't perfect, but gives a guide so that both rails look identical.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-14-2009, 4:09 PM Reply   
I like to start with 1/4" tape and then do several layers of wider tape until I have coverage out to 2 inches from my lap line.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-14-2009, 4:11 PM Reply   
I forgot to mention, that I use a single edge razor to trim the tape.

After I have built up a raised area of tape that is about 2" wide, I cover the interior between the tape lines with butcher paper.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-14-2009, 4:12 PM Reply   
Flip and repeat

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-14-2009, 4:19 PM Reply   
I used 4" wide carbon tape to do the rails. After I melt the foam out, I will have to build the frame up with several layers of fabric on the inside, this will also allow me to connect the braces to the perimeter frame with some fabric.

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Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-14-2009, 6:00 PM Reply   
looking real good , man i wish i was their helping you , you are not bagging it?? i think i would try a 11 oz. carbon tape for your cross brace. that carbon is the shizzzzz.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-14-2009, 6:13 PM Reply   
Thanks brewkettle. How much are you paying for the 11 oz? I think I have some 9 oz in the shop, and also some left over Zylon. I'd like to use that up.

I didn't bag this, you have a sharp eye. I had a nasty experience with cutlaps and a bag. The resin bled through the tape and into EPS and sundry other issues, so I'll skip that in the future. :-)

(Message edited by surfdad on February 14, 2009)
Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-15-2009, 5:33 AM Reply   
dont know on cost from us composites.
Old    Kona (konaking)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-15-2009, 7:36 AM Reply   
Thanks for the update SD. Can't wait for the rest.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-15-2009, 10:30 AM Reply   
Getting closer! I'm waiting on two items from my supplier, so my progress is grinding to a halt here.

I opted on the carbon and Zylon footpads, rather than a bunch of eglass. This is 3 layers on both the front and back footpads.

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Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-15-2009, 12:57 PM Reply   
Is eglass related to ewood?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-15-2009, 1:39 PM Reply   
LOL - yes, very similar, but e.wood is significantly more mean-spirited. :-)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-19-2009, 8:13 PM Reply   
I applied a mold release to all of the exposed EPS, in hopes that it will prevent the epoxy from penetrating into the EPS. :-)

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-19-2009, 8:18 PM Reply   
I applied a single layer of 9 oz to the bottom, it's going to take at least two layers to seal it up.

A layer of econo-ply to keep the blanket from sticking to the epoxy. :-)

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-20-2009, 7:54 PM Reply   
My design for the construction includes a temporarily removable top. I need access to the inside of the board to melt the foam, install the fin boxes and reinforce the frame and supports. I am creating a skin that I will remove and then later glue back down and laminate over it.

I opted to use some more econo-ply to prevent the epoxy from saturating into the eps...this also has me thinkinh about prefabbed skins. This shows the econo-ply and the dry 9 oz.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-20-2009, 7:56 PM Reply   
I did the resin work directly on the board. I did NOT lap the rails, but will after all the internals are done.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-20-2009, 8:03 PM Reply   
As I was doing this deck skin, it reminded me that fiberglass/epoxy when cured on top of a shiny flat surface, comes out shiny like it's been polished. It's also somewhat flexible. I know that some of the commercial boards are built using a pre-fabbed skin. Plus, if you make it upside down, that is to say, the gloss is face down, it will eliminate zits and bubbles. I think that in a production environment, you could make up a batch of skins and then eliminate the gloss and polish process.
Old    Kona (konaking)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-21-2009, 4:36 AM Reply   
Essentially your are creating a mold. Throw some pour foam in a high pressure press and presto.

I have been following along in this forum and I thinking of trying this in the summer. Big investment though

http://skibuilders.com/howto/
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-21-2009, 6:00 AM Reply   
that skibuilder page is awesome
Old    Kona (konaking)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-21-2009, 6:45 AM Reply   
Did check out some of the presses those guys are building?? Once you have that I think the rest would be easy.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-22-2009, 9:27 AM Reply   
The top skin cured and I've set it aside. I set out to remove the interior foam. I hotwired the majority with a small hand held tool.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-22-2009, 9:32 AM Reply   
Up close, it's transparent, but just a few inches away and it's difficult to make out any object.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-22-2009, 9:36 AM Reply   
I skipped a step! :-) I poured the xylene into the cavity and worked it with a plastic squeege. The only EPS left is on the underside of the frame and supports. I'll have to slop it on those areas and scrub it some.

The shape remained without issue.

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Old    Smed (smedman)      Join Date: Feb 2006       02-24-2009, 12:28 PM Reply   
truly amazing jeff! have you posted this over on sways? some of the old timers will be bowing down! :-)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-24-2009, 7:50 PM Reply   
Or rolling on the floor! :-) Matt you are too kind, and thanks!
Old    Kona (konaking)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-25-2009, 5:46 AM Reply   
Matt how are you have not seen ya post in a while. Any new boards?
Old    Nate Hudson (iamnathanhudson)      Join Date: Dec 2002       02-25-2009, 6:33 AM Reply   
Hey Jeff,

What does a poor college kid have to do to get ahold of one of your boards you got laying around? You keep cranking those bad boys out! I get all warm and fuzzy thinking what it would be like to have any one of your many shreddin machines!!!! Really though, I love seeing the progress of all your builds!

If you have one you wouldn't mind donating one....i'd be glad to beg, borrow, and steal to get you the shipping. Even if for a small cost I would figure out something....

Not insulting your work, I'm just broke...If I had 400, 500, plus dollars I would definitely pay for you to shape me one.

This build looks to be coming out pretty sweet!

-Nate
Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-25-2009, 12:24 PM Reply   
Surfdad,
why didnt you vac the carbon rail , did you have trouble keeping it in place , next time use stick pins to hold the carbon to the core then just clip them off after you melt the core away
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-25-2009, 1:50 PM Reply   
Nate-O, I'm glad that you follow along and thanks so much for the props!. Although, if you paid me $500 for a shape, I'd think you were CRAZY! :-) I just don't sell any of the boards I shape. We should do one of those forward the board things so that folks can ride something different. Invariably, though, someone steals the stupid thing.

Do you have an area and tools where you could shape your own? Honestly, they are pretty easy and cheap to make.

Brewkettle, that's a cool idea with the pins. No, not about keeping it in place, you're getting as bad as me with your memory. :-) See 2/14/09 post. :-)

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