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Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-22-2008, 11:07 AM Reply   
Ok, I'm tired of my struggle against fully understanding how to alleviate rope tension and it's time to make a change! I've been riding for a LONG time (14 years or so) and can do most of the basic inverts. My problem though comes now that I'm trying to step up my spinning game.

I've been doing TS 3's for a long time, but I just got back into trying HS 3's in the last couple of years. If any of you have read my "HS 3's Suck!" thread in the trick tips forum, then you know my frustration!

The short of it is that I just don't think I have good technique for advancing myself towards the the boat for spins. Yes, I can land HS and TS 3's but they aren't near as consistent as I think they should be plus my technique has made it hard for me to take them to 5's.

Here is an example of my HS 3.
http://www.vimeo.com/1648414

I try to use a drift edge which seems to be correct from just about everything I had ever heard about spinning. It's strange though because lately I'm getting more people saying they just use a short progressive edge for spinning. The other thing a lot of people don't talk about is their handle position on their cut and when they pull on the handle to spin. Lots of people say pop, pull, pass with both hands, but if you pause some videos the majority of people have already released one hand at the top of the wake.

For me I just feel I'm having to work too hard to spin. Keeping the handle in tight to my waist on my cut just wears me out. When I talk to others they say they don't feel like they have to muscle it much, but I always feel like I have to jerk the crap out of the handle to make a pass.

So does anybody have different insight on how I could change my edge, handle position, pulling timing, body position, etc? Also, what are you thinking about coming off the wake...pass first, turn my head into the spin, keep looking ahead until I've advanced myself towards the boat...what? Obviously I'd like to say to myself don't think about it too much, but that isn't working!
Old    Ryan Shimabukuro (ryan_shima1)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-22-2008, 11:36 AM Reply   
Eubanks, maybe wait a little longer until you reach the highest point in the air before starting the rotation. That might help with the line tension. It seems you're starting your rotation too early & the handle is getting pulled away and won't be in a good position at your lower back to be passed.

Hope that helps.

PS: It seemed like the wake was unbalanced because it's washy when it should be clean. Do you normally ride with it like that or was it something else causing it to be washy?
Old    Luke Power (powercorps)      Join Date: Nov 2006       10-22-2008, 11:38 AM Reply   
Is your main problem completing the pass or landing? If getting the pass under lots of line stress is your problem, try waiting longer for the pass to come around. When i first learned the hs 3 I had to pull super hard. The reason for that was that I was nervous about getting the handle pass done early so that i did not land backwards. The truth is you can wait a lot longer for the pass than you might think and its alot easier to make it after the jump's peak than before it. Anymore i just barely pull and patiently wait (backwards) for the handle.

If your problem is landing, one thing that helped me was not picking up my knees. Again, out of fear, i used to pull my knees up to my chest while spinning and I think the extra movement was making it hard to land. Once i just let my legs dangle I started landing consistantly.
Old    Small Light (stephan)      Join Date: Nov 2002       10-22-2008, 11:45 AM Reply   
I use a pretty aggressive progressive edge but I really emphasize flattening off and getting a major pop off the top. I visualize popping up and into the handle, this allows a nice smooth pass and allows me to grab the trick pretty much the whole way through. There is very little tension and just needs a little tug to complete the rotation. Here's a pic and my profile is also a heel 3.
Upload
Old    derek (to_blind)      Join Date: Mar 2007       10-22-2008, 11:48 AM Reply   
^^^ what he said!
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-22-2008, 11:48 AM Reply   
I think you both have good points.

Ryan - No, the wake on my boat is usually very clean. Somebody may have moved as I was cutting or we could have been turning slightly. I'm usually pretty anal about a clean wake so this was definitely not the norm!

Luke - You both say I might be spinning too early which might be the key. I feel like I'm waiting later than I used to, but I still might be spinning too early. The pass is definitely the hardest part for me. If I get the handle, then I normally land the trick. I still feel I'm working too hard though and that is my main issue. Maybe I should just think about doing a HS 180 and then don't even turn my head into the rotation until I'm completed the 180. I think turning my head too early never allows me to advance myself towards the boat.

Thanks and keep 'em coming!
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-22-2008, 11:51 AM Reply   
Thanks Heavy! When do you feel like you pull on the handle or do you ever feel like you have to pull very hard? When do you think about making the pass? Do you keep looking ahead off the wake until you feel you've advanced yourself towards the boat? Your 3's look good.
Old    Charles (wakecis)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-22-2008, 11:51 AM Reply   
for 3's, you can let go early with the rear hand, because as your lead hands pulls away it gives you enough spinning rotation for a 3. you only have to really manage line tension properly for 5's and beyond.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       10-22-2008, 11:54 AM Reply   
your 3 in that video was perfect.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-22-2008, 11:55 AM Reply   
So maybe doing some grabbed HS 180's letting go with my front hand off the wake would help? Trying to pull with two hands I could see really helping o/a spins, but for me it has made flat spinning harder. I'm so right arm dominant (goofy footed) that when I pull with both arms I end up getting the handle pulled more to my front hip and not to my back hip. Pulling with one arm would seem to make it easier to pull to the correct place.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-22-2008, 12:03 PM Reply   
Thanks J-Rod. I try to replicate that though and I feel like I have to work way too hard every time! Watching others there just seems to be an easier way as they don't seem to fight the line tension as much as I feel I do. Maybe that is false perception and I just suck. Ha!
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       10-22-2008, 12:29 PM Reply   
Heavy touched on the key. Anytime you're edge, and then you flatten off, you reduce the line tension. I do this everytime I spin a 3 or greater. But, you have to time the flattening off part just right so you still pop.

Do you ever land hard on your heel edge and have the handle ripped from you on yur 3s?

For grabbed 3s, I still tug with both hands, then go for the grab, but not everyone does it this way.

Here's a shot of mine, notice the rope....no tension

Upload
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-22-2008, 1:06 PM Reply   
Thanks J-Rod. Yeah, I sometimes land with too much weight back on my heels. Did you have thoughts on why this would be the case? I know it is partly because I've gotten into a bad habit of passing the handle too bent over at the waist. I started doing this (leaning far away from the boat) to avoid the dreaded out the front crash that kept me from trying these for years.

I've been watching some video today of guys I ride with (they do 3's, 5's, 7's) and I noticed one thing they do differently with the handle than me. They have the handle out away from their body on their approach. I guess this in turn gives you something to pull against to create slack . I keep the handle in tighter and maybe that is part of the problem. When I get into the air the boat is trying to regain that slack and I don't have much leverage to pull with. Thoughts? Keep the handle out a bit more on my cut?
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       10-22-2008, 1:14 PM Reply   
"They have the handle out away from their body on their approach. I guess this in turn gives you something to pull against to create slack .

Totally....Andrew was talking about this in a recent trick tip too. I would try it. I think Nintzel suggested this tech for TS backside 180s too.

You're going to land the same way that you left the wake. If you're landing hard on a heel edge then it does sound like you're just staying on edge through the entire trick. That will give you the line tension problem you're talking about, and cause the handle to get ripped away from you when you land...potentially! I think this also happens when you try to spin to early.
Old    Shredtastic (seth)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-22-2008, 1:19 PM Reply   
I found that grabbing really helped me. I really think about getting a good grab (nose seems to be the easiest) off the wake and throw the spin after that. I really felt the lack of line tension and how easy it was to spin, plus it looks and feels much better!
Old    Andy Nintzel (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004       10-22-2008, 1:28 PM Reply   
Spinning and Line Tension are two closely tied to each other. I like to think to focus on always advancing myself toward the boat. That is what gives me the easiest rotation and Breaks the line tension for me.

I keep the handle out on my spins a lot of people see riders keeping the handle in tight to thier body and think that is how they should do every trick. Handle in tight is good for mobes and tech flips but for me anyway its horrible for spinning. How are you supposed to advance your body towards the boat and break the line tension if you have no room to go any where becuase the rope is pinned in tight. I have my hands in the middle of the rope and line out so my elbows are just in front of my hips. This allows me to "pull" the handle in the air and make the movement towards the boat, hence breaking the line tension. Unlike J-rod I pull with one hand isnstead of two and go for the grab with the other. I would imagine that having the handle in tight may have something to do with the line tension issue you are having.

I have been really playing with handle position this summer becuase I am addicted to TS BS spinning at the moment. On TS BS spins you have to keep the handle out. Working on different TS BS spins rego and switch has really helped out all my other rotations a ton. It opened my eyes to the impact of good handle placement. On a TS BS you cannot even start to rotated without advancing your body towards the boat and breaking that tension.

When I started learn HS 7s I was getting work in that out the front fashion you mention above. I got Pissed off one day and started just trying to pull as hard as I could on the rope, I never notice that I was keeping my arms out more until I started landing them and then compared the video. ON my out the front crashes my arms where in tight and the line is tight, ones I stomped Arms out with no line tension. Now its second nature, I guess that means its time to go to HS 9!

Hope this helps some what-

Here is a shot of me Mid Heel Seven Notice the slacked out rope. Like in J-Rods Photo.


Upload
Old    Josh (romes)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-22-2008, 1:35 PM Reply   
lots of good _ish in here guys. more good knowledge in here than any of the other spin threads i've seen in a while.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-22-2008, 1:37 PM Reply   
Thanks Andy! I really appreciate the tips from you and everybody else. I have analyzed this trick on video over, and over, and over and it just has never clicked for me on the water. Sure I land some, but I should have them consistent at this point, and after this thread I think handle position on my cut could have everything to do with my issues.

It's funny because who even talks about the handle position DURING the cut for spinning?? You hear pop, pull, pass but nobody talks much about everything leading up to that pop.

Hopefully I get to try some soon and I'll report back with my findings! Let's just hope I don't go out the front as I think that's about the most painful fall in wakeboarding!
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-22-2008, 1:39 PM Reply   
Here is a screen shot to show my handle position coming into the wake. I've definitely got that handle pulled in, and man it wears me out after a few attempts. This is part of what I'm talking about when I say I feel like I'm making this harder than it should be.
Upload
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-22-2008, 1:41 PM Reply   
Here is my other post where I received a lot of good information as well.
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3184/544232.html?1220380076
Old    Andy Nintzel (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004       10-22-2008, 1:51 PM Reply   
Eubanks,

Just looking at that screen shot makes me think that for surely it is your handle position. From that positoin there is no where for your body to advance too-

It is really odd that no ever talks about Handle Position on your approach, it is so crucial to proper execution of a trick.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-22-2008, 1:53 PM Reply   
Good to know Andy. I'm going to be pissed (I mean happy) if I stomp the next one using an arms out approach. haha
Old    Andy Nintzel (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004       10-22-2008, 2:02 PM Reply   
Hope you do homie!
Old    J Jakober (jjakober)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-22-2008, 2:36 PM Reply   
I am a believer in the pop-pull-pass technique for 360s. The problem for me is waiting to long after the pop to initiate the pull. I have no problem with 3s but taking it farther is a problem! Here are 2 shots of my delayed start 360s. As you can see I have slack in the rope, but in the first pic I have just started the spin at the top of my pop. In the second I am on my way down and have just completed the first 180

1

2

It's like I need to make sure everything is good in the air before I start pulling and spinning, they look kinda cool because they are late, but it makes it harder to take it to five or further!

The funny thing is, I can do ollie 3's no problem and have gotten close to ollie 5's!?!?
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-22-2008, 2:49 PM Reply   
Nice JJ! Those look good, but you are right, they are harder to take further. That is why I've hesitated to learn it the way same say which is to not pull or start spinning until you're on your way down.

I have a similar problem with my TS 3's. The way I got them consisten and kept from over-rotating was to do a very late (as I am landing) handle pass. Well, that's all good for 3's but now I've screwed myself from learning 5's! To learn 5's I'm having to learn a totally different (earlier) handle pass.
Old    Dizzy Jenkins (dizzyj)      Join Date: Jul 2003       10-22-2008, 2:55 PM Reply   
I donno, handle position looks pretty good to me. I dont land 3's, but my 180's are quick and delayed when I ride with a similar hadle positon. When I let my hands out, they become lofty slow spins.

you might try it, but I wouldnt let your hands out much.
Old    J Jakober (jjakober)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-22-2008, 3:03 PM Reply   
Eubanks,

That sounds just like me on TS 3's. Mine are like a 2 step trick. Do the first 180 then on the way down do the second 180

I have been trying OffAxis style spins to try and learn to take my spins farther. I definitely spin faster, put the rope gets away from me!
Old    Small Light (stephan)      Join Date: Nov 2002       10-22-2008, 3:23 PM Reply   
To just do a regular 3 I don't really pull all that much. What really helped me get them consistent was picturing Gregg Necrason and how he rides. He used to have all kinds of pics where he really overemphasized passing down by his butt, for some reason that made sense to me as I always felt like I was getting pulled over when I passed behind my back. When I started thinking about popping high passing by me bum it clicked and then grabbing came shortly thereafter. I'd say the one thing to think about, more than the handle pass is just getting a good high hard pop, if I get a good pop, the trick is done son! It's when I start tripping about my edge or handle that I duff 3's or 5's. Just for the hell of it, come in on a crazy cut and try and boost as high W2W as possible, then do a 3 the same way. My profile pic is an example of it, focused on ups not about passing!
Old    Andy Nintzel (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004       10-23-2008, 10:07 AM Reply   
Jakober!

That Second SHot is INSANE! Looks like your about to get owned!
Old    J Jakober (jjakober)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-23-2008, 10:22 AM Reply   
Yeh that one is so late I should just tell people that I was doing a seven

But no ownage, that's just how I do them.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       10-23-2008, 10:23 AM Reply   
Speaking of the second shot.....

I had a few pics like that a couple years ago....helped me determine that I was rushing the handle pass. In that picture, J made the pass before he has completed the 180.

Just an observation...
Old    Scott Flanagan (scottwbc)      Join Date: Oct 2008       10-23-2008, 10:33 AM Reply   
Hey jarret do you ride lavon???
Old    J Jakober (jjakober)      Join Date: Apr 2002       10-23-2008, 10:38 AM Reply   
jarrod,

You have to pass the handle early when you are doing 720's

I wouldn't say I rushed the handle pass. My lead hand is still securely holding the handle and my back hand is open and hasn't grabbed it yet. I would imagine a few milli seconds later the 180 has been completed and I have the handle securely in my other hand. Then again the spin is so late I might have rushed it a bit to avoid a beat down!

Just curious, what problems did rushing the handle pass cause you?
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-23-2008, 10:38 AM Reply   
Yep! I might have met you before. You teach with JoJo right? By the way, I'm broke right now and look to Wakeworld and other riders for me "free" lessons.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       10-23-2008, 10:40 AM Reply   
How did he rush the handle pass when he hasn't passed yet and is one foot off the water?! ha

I've been trying to level off in the air before spinning too now. Before I would start spinning with the nose of my board in the air and that always meant trouble.
Old    derek (to_blind)      Join Date: Mar 2007       10-23-2008, 10:43 AM Reply   
DON'T BE AFRAID TO SPIN LATE!! it allows you to get comfortable in the air and with your pop, try different grabs, shifty, etc.. and just looks cool as hell. its fun to see how long you can wait before spinning too, just don't wait too long.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       10-23-2008, 10:52 AM Reply   
"Rushed" wasn't even close to the right word, sorry!

I was just trying to point out that he focussed on the pass so much that maybe he forget to keep spinning. It seems to slow me down a little too much.

Here is an example of perfect form by Scotty Ensminger. His back is to boat when he has both hands on the handle.

Upload
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       10-23-2008, 10:53 AM Reply   
btw...that's a sanger wake!
Old    Josh (romes)      Join Date: Sep 2006       10-23-2008, 11:21 AM Reply   
yea scotty and andreas wake is MACKIN!!!

i spin my switch heel 3's real late too, almost feels like i'm on my snowboard. i want to take them O/A but have gotten stacked pretty good the few i've tried.
Old    Scott Flanagan (scottwbc)      Join Date: Oct 2008       10-23-2008, 11:24 AM Reply   
Yes sir i teach with jojo and rusty where you out yesterday?
Old    Andy Nintzel (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004       10-23-2008, 12:22 PM Reply   
"DON'T BE AFRAID TO SPIN LATE!!"

You can spin 3's super late I would suggest learning them with traditional timing first so it will be easier to start going past 3.

Here is my "Classic" Late 3 shot.

Notice the Line tensoin till I am just past 180. It seems to me that when you wait to spin there is way more line tension.

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J-

I love IT!!!!!!!! GREAT HEEL SEVEN SHOT!
Old    Adam Hughes (hughes144)      Join Date: Apr 2008       10-23-2008, 4:31 PM Reply   
Eubanks.... We will get plenty of practicing this Sunday.. It's all matters of who first will get all owned big time!

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