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Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       02-11-2008, 11:26 AM Reply   
Ok, let me give you a quick background. I avoided these for about 7 years after blowing an eardrum and tearing up my body! Last year I starting trying them and landed 4 w2w in the matter of 10 tries or so. I thought I had it down, but then I started getting wrecked on them hard again (usually from getting pulled out the front and catching the nose of my board) and couldn't land anymore for the rest of the year.

So Alan (on these boards) had suggested I try some at slower speeds which I have done 3 times over the winter. That has helped ease the crashes and allow me to try them more often. I usually get around in good position but don't quite get the handle. I have gotten the handle a few times but then the handle pulls me out the front over the nose of my board after I've landed.

So.....I know the answer seems to be pull harder or wait to spin (pop, pull, pass) but I need more specific instruction at this point. I watch video after video of this trick in slo mo but so many people do it differently. I often here to pull with both hands (which I try to do) but I'm surprised at many people I see that have already let off their front hand when they are leaving the wake. If I do that, then I can never seem to get the handle close enough to pass.

So the things I want to know is where is your handle approaching the wake...out a little bit so you have room to pull or in close to the hips so the handle is tight to your body? Do you starting pulling (not spinning) up the wake or do you not pull at all until you're at the peak of your jump? Do you start turning your head as you pull or leave your head straight (looking at the 2nd wake) until you feel that you've pulled the handle to and/or past your back hip?

I know these details sound crazy, but it just isn't clicking for me the way I'm appoaching it right now. I can do TS 3's no problem though. And I don't think the issue is line tension as I use a drift edge in a squatted position.

HELP!

P.S. I've posted this before, and not sure if it helps as a reference, but at 4:05 of this video is the first one I ever landed...and yes I was excited and acted like a big dork! I would like to throw them with my knees bent more in the air which I've been trying to do, but at this point I'll take anything!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7menC2BTUs
Old    Andrea Ensminger (parkgirl)      Join Date: Nov 2001       02-11-2008, 11:48 AM Reply   
Right before I started landing these I was having the same problem with the handle and timing. A friend of mine who is an excellent coach gave me some tips that worked really well.

Practice some 180's keeping both hands on the handle. Pop straight up like a giant straight air. On the way DOWN pull with both hands to your hip to do a 180. Don't initiate with your body, use ALL handle, which is what I was doing wrong for a long time. This will help set your axis so you don't go over the nose. That crash SUCKS!

Then when you go to do the 3, wait, even longer than you want to. This is where I still have problems sometimes. Do exactly like the 180: On the way DOWN from the peak of your jump is when you initiate the spin. I always land when I make myself wait long enough.

I know you've landed these before, so good job! Just dial in the technique and timing and its yours! Hope Im helping and not telling you what you already know.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       02-11-2008, 12:04 PM Reply   
I think your right. I know the ones I've landed I have done the last 180 (TS BS 180) VERY late. It seems like you aren't going to get around but you do.

That is a great suggestion about trying the 180's. I actually thought about that after riding this past weekend. Yeah, I should try that next time and get comfortable with the pull on the handle. There are too many things going on in my head right now...drift, get seated down, keep the handle in, pop up, wait, pull the handle, keep my head up, reach around, etc. I know I won't have to think as much once I start landing them. I guess I'm just amazed at how loose the rope looks for other people on video and how tight it feels for me...very strange. The times were I start getting worked hard is when I start spinning too early.

Thanks Andrea...I've enjoyed video of your riding.
Old    Andrea Ensminger (parkgirl)      Join Date: Nov 2001       02-12-2008, 9:18 AM Reply   
Thanks Jarret!

I just watched your video too, nice riding! Your reaction on the HS 3 is classic! Exactly how I feel everytime I land it still:-) Not to hi-jack but your TS3 is great, I still have problems landing it on my ass and bouncing up, and tips to make that stop? Do I just need to wait even loinger to do the last 180?
Old    Blake Parrish (blakep)      Join Date: May 2007       02-12-2008, 9:59 AM Reply   
for you question about where to pull the handle, it is easier to get the handle and the rotation if you start to pull the handle right off the top of the wake. however once you land a ton of them, it looks a lot cooler if you wait till the peak of you jump to start spinning. waiting makes it alot harder to get the slack in the rope that you need and you will have to use a bit more muscle power to keep the rope in close to your body.
what andrea said about practicing those 180's will help a ton.
good luck bro.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       02-12-2008, 10:49 AM Reply   
Thanks Blake. I can't wait to try them again.

Andrea - I started adding a grab to my TS 3's this past year and that really smoothed them out. I kinda feel like they were "jerky" before.

Anyway, it sounds like you are rotating too far and slipping out on your TS 3's. I used to do the same thing. The one thing I have done to get them consistent is waiting until very, very late to pass the handle...like when you're landing. Passing it any earlier than that will cause your board to come around too far and slip out.

I do try to do the first 180 on the way up and the next 180 on the way down, but this doesn't matter as much if you wait to pass the handle. So wait until the last second and also DO NOT look for the boat. I land looking at about 8 o'clock if the boat is at 12 o'clock. Sometimes I even hold my head there for a second to emphasize that position before I turn it around more to see where I'm going. I hope that makes sense. Passing it late sometimes makes it feel like you won't get all the way around but it works...trust me! Good luck!

(Message edited by eubanks01 on February 12, 2008)
Old    Robert A. Rodriguez (robertr720)      Join Date: Aug 2007       02-16-2008, 3:55 PM Reply   
Well man I have to admit the HS 3 is my favorite trick to do, off or on axis with a back hand or front hand grab before the handle pass. I really started to get them consistant when I started to grab them. Slob is probably the easiest to me and helps you to suck up your knees and wait to spin. I will agree that you can land the 3 like andrea has said, that is how they will feel to me when I do them with a back hand grab but that style of 3 will also make learning to take it to 5 very difficult for you later on. When I come in to the wake I try to keep the handle about 4 to 5 inches away from my waist and it is centered to my body. Recently I have been enjoying taking them all to the flats cause the knee is doing good but w2w is easier, and for that I will use a mild progressive edge. I don't let off at the wake at all but still don't have alot of speed cause I never really get on it. 1.Pop with even weight on both feet (to me this is important as to what type of axis you will set) Reach down for the slob grab while bringing your knees up and once it is yours pull the handle hard enough that even if you missed the handle you would still rotate the whole 3 land and ride away. If this happens to you already then you are super close to not only landing them but having them dialed. 2.Pass the handle at the small of your back. You should focus on making sure that the handle is going to the same spot every time so that you back hand is reaching to the same spot every time. This will soon require no thought what so ever. If you have to search for the handle then odds are that you won't make the rotation in time. Once you have the handle in you back hand if you have pulled hard enough then you are going to finish the rotation and land. This is where it seems like the problem comes in for you, I hate landing 3's with the line tight cause of the fall that you speak of above and because even if you do ride away they feel very jerky and not clean and they seem to take a lot of strength to maintain your edge out towards the flats. when I land them now I always have slack in the line cause I have been working on 5s and that is what I have found it takes to get around and get the handle early enough to stick them. If you have a little slack in the line coming around from a 3 then you will need to keep the handle at waist height and push it out towards the flats to stop your rotation and get you stable, your head and chest should be up at this point and you should be looking toward the flats on the side that you are on. If you stop rotating to early then you will either land on the toes and cut right back into the wake or it will be a hard landing if your board in parallel with the boat. Make sure to keep edging out after you land and this should also keep you from going over the nose cause your speed will continue to carry you out towards the flats instead of over the front of your board.

As far as the grab goes, I think that it makes the trick feel more fluid and keeps your legs from throwing you off axis as in the bad board is between you and the boat off axis. It also delays the spin and it helps you to pass the handle at the small of your back and not closer to your butt.

Andrea your vid kicks ass I must say. Impressive switch inverts!!!!

I hope that I helped you out at least a little bit or a lot and that this can soon become your favorite trick too...
Old    Robert A. Rodriguez (robertr720)      Join Date: Aug 2007       02-16-2008, 3:56 PM Reply   
oh and sorry about the run on's and you instead of your that I did in there.. GOOD LUCK MAN
Old    Chris Phelps (cpizzle)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-03-2008, 12:32 PM Reply   
Cool vid. Nice.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       03-03-2008, 12:48 PM Reply   
Thanks guys.

I started trying these w2w again last weekend. I tried quite a few and felt pretty good about them even though I didn't land any. I'm used to spinning with my legs pretty straight, so sucking my knees up to spin feels strange. I think that will help lower my center of gravity though...plus they look better.

I still think I was spinning too early. That is just something I need to get over mentally. A few times I waited and had the handle in the small of my back, but I couldn't find it with my other hand for some reason. The few I've landed I knew I was going to land them once I started reaching for the pass. I felt like that a couple of times this past weekend, but I guess the handle was just out of my reach. I need to get some video at some point so you guys can see what I'm doing wrong.

I probably tried 12 and felt more comfortable with the attempts...until the last one! I really tried to jerk the handle hard but it put me a little off balance in the air. I could tell it wasn't going well so I tried to stop it at a HS 180. Well, I couldn't and I did the dreaded back-edge plant. My neck and abs are worked over today.

So in summary, I guess I just need to be more patient with the spin. When I try to rush it crazy things happen. It's just so crazy that this trick is giving me this much trouble when TS 3's came very easy. More updates to come...
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       05-19-2008, 7:43 AM Reply   
UPDATE: I haven't ridden much this year, and I haven't landed any of the HS 3's that I have tried since the end of last year. I think I have only landed 5 or 6 of these ever.

Well, Saturday I finally landed the last one I tried! I feel like I'm starting to understand just how long I need to pull and how long I need to wait to start spinning. For me doing a nice and slow FS 180 just after I pop while pulling on the handle has helped me the best. Also, I was reaching around for the handle and then tossing it with the other hand if I couldn't feel it immediately. My buddy (Adam) said to just hold the handle there longer at my back to give me time to feel for it with my other hand. The very next one I landed.

The other thing that helped was when I stopped trying to yank the snot out of the handle. That seemed to wear me out and I would end up putting myself off balance. Instead, I started thinking of just a slower pull to my back hip like I would for a HS FS 180. Plus, if I slow it down like this, then I hardly ever do a dreaded back edge plant like I sometimes do when I try to really jerk that handle in hard.

So my advice...pull longer and wait longer to turn your head and reach for the handle. Now we'll see if I listen to my own advice next time! It's hard to wait on these!
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-23-2008, 8:02 AM Reply   
Ok, I STILL have HS 3's!

I've only taken a few sets sets my last update, but I'm still have problems with this trick. Everything I think I understand this thing in my head, then something happens where I can't land them and get totally confused again.

One thing that I think has screwed me up is thinking so much about my legs. I'm trying to suck up my knees before spinning, but then it feels very awkward to try and pull the handle once I am so squated in the air. I seem to be breaking the trick up to pop, suck up knees, pull with both hands to back hip, and reach for the handle. There is just a lot going on.

The other thing I'm totally miffed about is handle position on the cut and actually pulling in the handle. I've tried having my elbows at my sides, but I see a lot of people start with mostly straight arms. I have watched a million videos in slo-mo of this trick and have been surprised at how many people are already letting go with their front hand off the wake...even though most will tell you to pull with both hands. If I do this, then I will have so much tension and get pulled out the front. The only thing I can think of that they must do is yank in the handle GOING UP THE WAKE so that the tension is then minimal once the get in the air allowing them to spin mostly with one arm once they have left the wake. Does that make sense? I hear a lot to not pull until you're at the peak of your jump but watch some videos and you will see nobody doing that!

So where is the handle on your cut? Do you pull going up the wake?

I really feel this trick is going to be easy once I get it down, but I just haven't been doing them in a way that has them consistent. HELP!
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-23-2008, 8:09 AM Reply   
Here is a local guy I ride with doing a HS 3. Note that his front hand is off the handle before he has even left the wake. I take his technique to be good since teaches lessons and can do on axis HS FS 7's.
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Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-23-2008, 8:19 AM Reply   
Here is him again doing HS FS 5 but the same principles should apply.

Drift edge which I do. Handle is in slightly.
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At the wake. I don't know if he is already pulling or just holding the handle in where it was during the cut.
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Leaving the wake. This is what blows my mind as to how he gets the handle pass. He has already dropped his back hand and hasn't even come completely off the wake, and the handle is out away from his body. Where and how did he advance himself towards the boat??
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Reaching for the handle.
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Getting the pass.
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So breaking down these videos makes me nuts because I feel like I get worked and can't even get close to a handle pass if I try them like I see them from a video. Sigh.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-23-2008, 8:23 AM Reply   
By the way, here is he and his brother and they throw down!
http://www.kyleswakeboarding.com/SpinToWin.mov
Old    FIGS Engineering (fig)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-26-2008, 9:18 AM Reply   
This is a helpful thread as I have been killing myself over these also. Coming from the snowboard world my timing is all off. Thanks for breaking down that vid and offering the link. Those guys rip. It is me or do Swollen members make the best vid music haha. It seems that the key he is using is the slack the rope with his edging and go for the pass immediately. I am gonna give this a shot :-) Good luck man, don't think about it too much.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-28-2008, 6:59 AM Reply   
I know. I wish I didn't have to think about it too much, but I have to think about something!

I tried a couple more last weekend and actually got the handle on one attempt but slipped out on the landing. The thing that always helps me is to just wait longer. I still don't understand how people pass so early like the screen shots above, but I can't land them unless I wait a long time to turn into the spin and pass the handle.
Old    David (tparider)      Join Date: Aug 2003       07-28-2008, 3:58 PM Reply   
Eubanks - I've been trying some backside 3's lately so I'm not on the exact same page as you are, but I wanted to ask you - can you do a fs3 off the start up roller (inside out) or off a double up roller in the flats?
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-29-2008, 7:01 AM Reply   
David - I used to be able to, but I haven't tried them for a long time. I think I see what you're gettiing at. I feel like I'm close enough to getting this thing that I don't know to take a step backwards, but maybe I should start trying some again over my boat's wake when we turn around.

I think the thing that is going to get me over the hump is learning to wait on this thing. Once I start landiing them, then hopefully I will get more comfortable and be able to pass earlier and spin faster. This trick is frustrating!
Old    Andrea Ensminger (parkgirl)      Join Date: Nov 2001       07-29-2008, 10:20 AM Reply   
Jarret, sucks your still struggling with these!

Here's what sealed the deal for me...

A shorter harder cut which puts you up rather than out, usually for me this is only about a ten foot cut. (Think a really big wake-to-wake straight air). This will reduce the amount of tension on the line and make it easier to pass.

Once I get the perfect pop, The ONLY thing I thnk about is "wait until the peak," nothing else (it will clog your brain and keep you from waiting long enough).

Get it!!!!!
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-29-2008, 11:15 AM Reply   
Andrea - Thanks! I haven't tried many of these as I have only been on the lake a few times this summer. That being said this trick should be in the bag already!

That's interesting your take about the cut. I've though about trying that...shorter but harder cut and then flattening off a few feet before the wake. It seems like that might decrease tension even more than just a 20-25 foot drift edge. I'll try to give it a try next time out. If I can just make myself wait though this trick should start going down more often! I just get confused watching slo-mo of people doing this trick because it seems like they are not doing the things they say need to be done to get this trick!
Old    Andrea Ensminger (parkgirl)      Join Date: Nov 2001       07-29-2008, 11:36 AM Reply   
That sucks, sorry you haven't been able to ride much.


Don't flatten off. That would be what we like to call "the reverse progressive edge," adds unnecessary tension and keeps you from going up. Try a few straight airs with a 5 foot cut. Focus on going up by using edge and line tension to get you up and out. You'd be surprised by how little it takes to get across the wake with the right cut.
Then do the same thing for the 3.

I was doing the 20-25 foot drift cut as well and landing them, but it just felt weird and looked even weirder on video. A friend pointed out to me that I should try the short, hard cut so my 3's go more up, and BINGO, he hit it on the head and they've seemed effortless since.

I'm no coach, so what works for me might not be the right thing for you, but I have gone through this. Everyone describes how they do a trick differently. People were telling me I should look this way and that, place the handle here or there and so on...but the only thing that worked for me (as for every spin I've learned) was getting the pop and timing right, everytime. This may or may not work for you as well, but I hope it does:-)
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-29-2008, 12:34 PM Reply   
Huh. I can totally do that type of cut, but I've always thought that type of edge is what you did NOT want to do for spins?? I figured it would actually make the line tighter. So that's not the case? I guess now that I think about it I see people do them both ways. Next time I'll give your way a try and see how it goes. Thanks for the tip!
Old    Allen Sasser (bamacpa)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-05-2008, 11:32 AM Reply   
Eubanks, that cut does initially put a lot of tension on the rope. But since it takes you more "up" than "out" the line loses tension quicker. Hence, you should wait, wait, wait to begin the spin.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       08-05-2008, 12:39 PM Reply   
That makes sense. Thanks Allen.

I did try some more HS 3's last Thursday and got the handle on a couple of attempts. Normally I will land them if I get the handle but I landed in the trough both times making me pop the handle.

Hopefully I'll get some video soon, but I hope to get this trick consistent by the end of the year!
Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       08-06-2008, 6:44 AM Reply   
you've got balls Eubanks
the fact that you can still sit upright to type (I assume) gives me hope to start tryin 3's again
the few that I have tried have really been painful

I'm thinking about slowing the boat way down and working on just 1 wakers

the wife doesn't like backing the trailer, so I will need to still be able to move my neck in order to get the trailer backed and the boat home
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       09-01-2008, 6:12 PM Reply   
http://www.vimeo.com/1648414

I've given this update on the general discussion but wanted to do it here as well. This was from this past weekend. Hopefully with each one I land I'm getting a little bit more comfortable with this trick.

Any tips now? I see that I'm more bent over at the waist than I would like to be and I could probably pitch over more before I start spinning.
Old    Kyle Power (kylepower8)      Join Date: Sep 2008       09-02-2008, 11:27 AM Reply   
hey there,
I used to get really frustrated with this trick too with it never being truely consistent until one of my friends helped me out a bit.

I personally take a smaller approach and use a progressive cut to the wake to try and pop up and wake to wake. when i get to the top of the wake i push the handle down first which helps get the handle lower and under your butt which will help keep you on axis and from being so bent over.
I hope this made sense and helps

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